Thoughts/input on new shield gating?

[deucich]

4 минуты назад, (NSW)AegisFifi сказал:

That wasn't the same point.

And yet it was. Getting 3.5s without replenishing shields to full capacity.

17 минут назад, (NSW)AegisFifi сказал:

The point I don't agree with you is there will no more be a partial shield gate. Partial shield gate will still happen when partially recharged shields break, but its duration will scale. Full shiled gate is just when it has its full duration (depending on the max shields capacity).

Well, that's a matter of terminology. I just rolled with what was offered on a graph in a workshop. Previously there were two separate lines - "full shield break" and "partial shield break" and after update there will be one - "scaling shield break".

20 минут назад, (NSW)AegisFifi сказал:

Perhaps it would be better to talk about full shield gate duration and partial shield gate duration.

If nothing special occurs on hitting full capacity, why single it out over partial one?

[FiveN9ne]

4 hours ago, Jarriaga said:

People like me have been calling it an exploit for years by simply observing the requirements and gear involved to accomplish the desired outcome. There is no universe, reality or train of thought in which "making a handicap item a near-immortality item by the introduction of an unrelated mechanic while all other items in the category of the handicap items remained as handicaps" was not an exploit.

Don't gaslight and pretend it's only deemed so now. Otherwise I wouldn't have proposed DE to correct the DDK and instead add the function as a mod A YEAR AGO.

The fact you willingly chose to throw in that reply after quoting the post in which I explicitly show for how long this has been seen as an exploit by many players doesn't help you if you don't want to stand out as a "disgruntled basement dweller." I won't allow you to label people white knights while pretending my point of view or reasoning is something that just came up because DE now aligns with what I had been observing, you hypocrite.

I was referring to DE, i do not care what "people like you" have been calling it as it's irrelevant. DE didnt deem it as an exploit during the entire existence of the interaction.

[AegidiusF]

Il y a 3 heures, deucich a dit :

And yet it was. Getting 3.5s without replenishing shields to full capacity.

No, it wasn't. I assume you are talking about full shields because we are talking about Hildryn only, because it doens't apply to other frames, as Grendel, that won't even have 1s of shield gate with full shields. I've said that the Devs only communicated about her maximum shield ate duration (3.5s), but not about her partial shield gate duration (everything that is below her max duration). We dont know if her shield gate duration will scale from 0.33s to 3.5s or if it will jump (discontinuity) to 3.5s when she reaches 1150 shields (or has full shields - I don't really know). Then you said that there is no partial shield gate. This is the specific point I don't agree. The full shield gate duration (I'm always talking about duration) is a cap (and we don't even know if overshields will be taken into account for the shield gate duration) and the partial shield gate duration is everything that is below that cap. The Devs announced they were going to buff Hildryn's passive : that currently affects only her max shield gate duration (the cap), but not the minimum value. Then we started talking about the "partial shield gate duration" everything under the cap) and the passive. Just that.

If you look at my complete answer to Sneakyervin, you'll see that I've made this explicit precision : the question was about minimum partial shield gate duration and how (of if) they will be affected by her buffed passive.

Il y a 4 heures, deucich a dit :

Well, that's a matter of terminology. I just rolled with what was offered on a graph in a workshop. Previously there were two separate lines - "full shield break" and "partial shield break" and after update there will be one - "scaling shield break".

We were talking about Hildryn and her new passive and how it will be implemented : this was not clear on the Dev Workshop. By the way, many other things weren't very clear : as an exemple, Pablo confirmed that Grendel will have reduced innate shield gate duration due to his low shields, but this wasn't very clear on the Dev Workshop.

Il y a 4 heures, deucich a dit :

If nothing special occurs on hitting full capacity, why single it out over partial one?

We were talking about Hildryn's passive and how it will be implemented : scaling from 0.33s to 3.5s ? scaling from 0.83s to 3.5s ? scaling from 0.33s to 2.5s and then 3.5s ? That's why we were talking about partial shield gate. As I said, my opinion is that it will scale from 0.33s to 3.5s, with no changes to the minimum shield gate duration.

[GPrime96]

On 2023-09-30 at 7:23 PM, mubsmubs said:

I was wondering if the new shield gating system would be any better than the current one, since you'd be investing mod slots for shield/shield recharge mods without any extra useful stats like the augur set. Current/old shield gating would guarantee you 1.3 s of shield gating at full shields, no matter how much base shields. With the new one, it's not guaranteed for some builds to get to that duration with just one ability cast without nuking efficiency, considering the new scaling. You can opt to slot in the new Catalyzing Shields to guarantee that 1.3 s, but again, you'd be sacrificing a mod slot as opposed to just using Decaying Dragon Key with the current system.

Please do keep in mind that I have done just the barest minimum of math on this, so feel free to give out any corrections.

The new shield gating mechanic would be better than what we have now. Right now, we only go for low shields because their durability haven’t made a noticeable difference, the Shield Gating is at full duration after maxing your shields and the amount don’t matter. After the update, default shields would be as effective for frames like Wisp Prime as it does in live game for Shield Gating while frames like Valkyr or Grendel would be screwed over. Protea and Hildryn would benefit from the new change the most due to their high shields.

Edited October 3, 2023 by GPrime96

[deucich]

1 час назад, (NSW)AegisFifi сказал:

No, it wasn't.

Ok, whatever.

1 час назад, (NSW)AegisFifi сказал:

I assume you are talking about full shields because we are talking about Hildryn only, because it doens't apply to other frames, as Grendel, that won't even have 1s of shield gate with full shields.

You can get 1125 shields from 5 tauforged azure shards. Which means you can reach 2.5s shieldgate without any mods on every warframe but Nidus and Inaros. Including Grendel.

1 час назад, (NSW)AegisFifi сказал:

Then you said that there is no partial shield gate. This is the specific point I don't agree. The full shield gate duration (I'm always talking about duration) is a cap (and we don't even know if overshields will be taken into account for the shield gate duration) and the partial shield gate duration is everything that is below that cap.

If you insist on calling any shildgate that hasn't reached its maximum as partial, you do you. I don't see the reason to use two separate terms for 2.48s vs. 2.5s invulnerability windows or call full something that is reachable with only partially refilled shields.

1 час назад, (NSW)AegisFifi сказал:

By the way, many other things weren't very clear : as an exemple, Pablo confirmed that Grendel will have reduced innate shield gate duration due to his low shields, but this wasn't very clear on the Dev Workshop.

How isn't that clear from the Dev Workshop? oO Grendel usually has less than 325 shields, therefore his shieldgate will be below current 1.33s. Unless you go for archon shards.

1 час назад, (NSW)AegisFifi сказал:

As I said, my opinion is that it will scale from 0.33s to 3.5s, with no changes to the minimum shield gate duration.

I don't see why it should be other way. And I don't see anyone saying otherwise here

Edited October 3, 2023 by deucich

[(NSW)warfare3376]

9 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

If you like it or not doesnt matter since it is free in the end. There is no opportunity cost to it since it comes from a slot there is no limit on, or atleast no reasonable limit on. You are also downplaying brief respite and augur mods since you make it sound like those are somehow out of the ordinairy costs in a build while completely ignoring that a build that instead plays around armor and HP has the same or higher costs tied to modding, both in capacity and slots, while also using some of the augur mods for the stats they provide.

Mod space mod space mod space, cause yea thats apparently the only thing that matters but fine lets talk about that. 1st off you that the auger mods give a bonus stat increase on top which is true but you failed to include that health tank builds have access to the umbral set, and on top of that health tank builds also benefit from the auger set too as even with just one of them every time you cast an ability you get to tank one source of damage no matter how high or low that damage for nothing in exchange. Moving on for shield gate builds, its sorta frame dependent but for the sake of this comparison Ill use brief respite and 1 auger mod as the minimum requirement tho some frames need more and some can get away with just respite, so thats about 2 slots already could be or less depending on the frame, could add rolling guard tho optional not needed but a lot of shield gate builds end up using it so about 3ish mod slots total. For health tank builds you got your health mod, your armor mod and maybe you got your adaptation so that is also 3 mods. The big difference come with where those mods are placed, for shield gate 1 of the mods is an aura, in which the aura isnt very competitive, 1 slot that could be used in your secondary and 1 optional slot for the main build, for health tank all 3 of its mods are used in the man build so in terms of mod efficiency yes shield gate does come out on top.

Now is that mod slot efficiency all thanks to the key? Absolutely not, there is no mod that its replacing all it does is make the full shield gate faster to get back which changes the way the build can be played in a way that is far more appealling which is exactly why shield gate builds got so popular. If the key didnt exist the amount of mod slots used for those builds would the same if not even less, the thing that would be different would be the playstyle in which it would be much more campy and you still would not to increase your shields. You wont be instantly fully replenishing your shields but you  would still want to some shield restoration in order to get the faster recharge delay, how it would play out is if you take a hit you would then cast an ability just like you would now to restore a bit of shields then hide behind cover for a couple secs for the rest to be restored very similar to old endurance run camp strats but a tad more safer.

Speaking of playstyle lets talk about that. For shield gate builds the playstyle is quite ability spamy, whenever to take a hit you must then use an ability to get back your shield gate to survive the next hit. Its very reactive based and you basically turn your energy bar into a health bar, you need to react every time you get hit/1.3 sec since you dont have any dr to survive multiple hits in a row. What you do have tho is extremely good consistency with the amount incoming damage you must manage as that damage can never spill into you health pool (besides toxin damage) making it very good for high lvl endurance. As for the requirement for shield gate build you for starters need an ability with a high enough energy cost to get back enough shields and secondly you would need a way to sustain your energy as again your energy is effectively your health bar. Now for health tanking, for these builds youre typically stacking a bunch of dr to buff up your ehp so you can then survive a large amount of incoming damage. In normal situations the window of being alive and dead is much higher for health tanking than shield gateing because shield gate is capped to 1.33 seconds, because of all the extra dr for health tanking you can shrug of a lot of the damage that a shield gate build would need to react to in order to stay alive which means normally health tank build have a larger window to react to incoming damage to continue to stay alive. The requirements for health tanking is a good amount of dr in order to survive large amounts of damage and a way to heal back up to continue tanking more damage, in which a lot of the healing methods are quite passive. Now comparing the 2, shield gating is more active and you have to constantly react to all incoming damage to stay alive and very consistent while health tanking is a little bit more passive and offers a larger window to react to incoming damage up till to the point to where its not. And thats the problem with health tanking, health tanking has never once been viable for high lvl endurance because enemy damage just gets so crazy high that health tanking physically cant handle it where as shield gating can. People dont like this, they dont like how shield gating is far more effective than health tanking, they dont like how shield gae builds use less mods then health tanking even tho all the other old high lvl endurance builds required even less, but instead of trying to bring health tanking up to the lvl of shield gate they instead want to bring shield gate down to the lvl of health tank which to me is just absurd. But here we are, next update shields are getting an unnecessary dr buff and a slight tweak to the shield gate mechanic meanwhile health and armor get absolutely nothing, so congrats the decaying key is dead but health tank builds are still garbage and you will still need to shield gate for high lvl content.

9 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

The bolded part is also wrong in combination with the underlined part. Since current shield gate is 1.3 second, any frame with 350 shields or lower after the patch will benefit more from the new mod than adding another augur mod, since the gate duration will be the same or better than 350 or lower max shields. Or did you completely miss that the new mod still allows for scaling values and not just 0.33 or 1.33 seconds depending on partial or full like the current system? So the same % stages applies with the mod as it does without.

Now for this. This is using our current knowledge of how shield gateing works that being that thats an all or nothing situation, if you 99% of your shields restored youd get .33 secs but if you had 100% youd get 1.33. When the update rolls out this will no longer be the case, see with the way it works now since theres no inbetween you basically forced to out all out since .33 is just not enough. With the new system tho there will much more variations in the gate time, with current shield gate builds the amount of shield that they restore might just be enough to get a useable gate but more likely will need small tweaks like using a 75 energy cost ability instead of a 50 cost or using an additional auger mod. Basically theres gonna be a new magic number for shield gate builds, what that number will be well we will have to wait and see but I know for sure that the new catalyzing shields mods isnt gonna provide as much value as you might think.

Edited October 3, 2023 by (NSW)warfare3376

[(XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA]

On 2023-09-30 at 7:23 PM, mubsmubs said:

I was wondering if the new shield gating system would be any better than the current one, since you'd be investing mod slots for shield/shield recharge mods without any extra useful stats like the augur set. Current/old shield gating would guarantee you 1.3 s of shield gating at full shields, no matter how much base shields. With the new one, it's not guaranteed for some builds to get to that duration with just one ability cast without nuking efficiency, considering the new scaling. You can opt to slot in the new Catalyzing Shields to guarantee that 1.3 s, but again, you'd be sacrificing a mod slot as opposed to just using Decaying Dragon Key with the current system.

Please do keep in mind that I have done just the barest minimum of math on this, so feel free to give out any corrections.

I feel like the dragon key meta was always both silly in that it was clearly an oversight that it worked that way in the first place (less shields being better and not worse) and excessive in terms of how easy it was to be basically unkillable with basically any frame.

It seems like it might be a slight to moderate nerf in some cases. 

[Leqesai]

25 minutes ago, (XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA said:

I feel like the dragon key meta was always both silly in that it was clearly an oversight that it worked that way in the first place (less shields being better and not worse) and excessive in terms of how easy it was to be basically unkillable with basically any frame.

[(PSN)Tactless_Ninja]

Shields were piss poor and Dragon keys were exploiting the bandaid fix. An actual rework was a long time in coming. 

[Leqesai]

The most hilarious thing about the whole discussion of invulnerability time is that it was never designed as a mechanic that was supposed to be the primary point of survivability. 

Back when shield gate was introduced there had been a historical problem of one shot happening. Shield Gate was supposed to stop that type of death/incapacitation. Because of the exploiting behavior of people using dragon keys the popular view on shield gate shifted away from incidental protection to primary protection. 

Even now, the duration of shield gate is a very hot topic but ya'll miss the point of shield gate entirely. It is not a major point of survivability. It is a mechanic specifically designed to protect the user from spike damage. The long duration periods added with these changes are mostly to appease the shift in expectation of the user, rather than a shift in design intent.

You want to get the most out of the intended mechanic? Build shield delay rather than shield break duration. The addition of shield delay is a massive buff to shield gate usage. I'm honestly surprised ya'll are so focused on the stupid dragon key stuff.

[(PSN)Nowhere-incoming]

3 minutes ago, Leqesai said:

The most hilarious thing about the whole discussion of invulnerability time is that it was never designed as a mechanic that was supposed to be the primary point of survivability. 

Back when shield gate was introduced there had been a historical problem of one shot happening. Shield Gate was supposed to stop that type of death/incapacitation. Because of the exploiting behavior of people using dragon keys the popular view on shield gate shifted away from incidental protection to primary protection. 

Even now, the duration of shield gate is a very hot topic but ya'll miss the point of shield gate entirely. It is not a major point of survivability. It is a mechanic specifically designed to protect the user from spike damage. The long duration periods added with these changes are mostly to appease the shift in expectation of the user, rather than a shift in design intent.

You want to get the most out of the intended mechanic? Build shield delay rather than shield break duration. The addition of shield delay is a massive buff to shield gate usage. I'm honestly surprised ya'll are so focused on the stupid dragon key stuff.

Many of the frames prior to SG update had no survivability period, it became the primary survival strat for many of those frames exactly because there was no other option available.   

[Zekkii]

26 minutes ago, Leqesai said:

The most hilarious thing about the whole discussion of invulnerability time is that it was never designed as a mechanic that was supposed to be the primary point of survivability. 

Back when shield gate was introduced there had been a historical problem of one shot happening. Shield Gate was supposed to stop that type of death/incapacitation. Because of the exploiting behavior of people using dragon keys the popular view on shield gate shifted away from incidental protection to primary protection. 

Even now, the duration of shield gate is a very hot topic but ya'll miss the point of shield gate entirely. It is not a major point of survivability. It is a mechanic specifically designed to protect the user from spike damage. The long duration periods added with these changes are mostly to appease the shift in expectation of the user, rather than a shift in design intent.

You want to get the most out of the intended mechanic? Build shield delay rather than shield break duration. The addition of shield delay is a massive buff to shield gate usage. I'm honestly surprised ya'll are so focused on the stupid dragon key stuff.

It's funny when you think about what purpose shields were initially supposed to serve.  They're supposed to be weaker, but self-repairing initial form of defense.  Health, in contrast, is supposed to be difficult to repair but reinforced by armour.  So why can I heal millions of health in dozens of different ways, but repairing shield only has niche methods to recover 100s?  The answer is naturally the shield gate invulnerability period.

Look at the Aura Mod Rejuvenation, it's the perfect example of what I'm talking about.  It grants the team 3 heals per second.  In the early days of Warframe healing was much more of a premium, so this wasn't as absurdly useless as it is now.  In fact, it used to only heal 0.8 per second.  Newer released abilities like Gloom allow the user to heal several times their total health every shot, grant that ability to nearby allies, and slow enemies enemies significantly all in one.  The paradigm shift is obvious, healing is easy.

So why hasn't that happened for shields?  Imagine Rejuvenation restored shields instead of health.  Even if it only recovered 0.8 shield per second it would make your entire squad permanently immortal to everything except toxin.  You would always have enough shield to retrigger the 0.33 second invulnerability gate that shield gating provides.  We can see this in action with Arcane Aegis or Gauss.  Gloom would do the same every time you deal damage, except with a 1.3 second shield gate.  The developers *cannot* give us powerful shield restoring methods without making us effectively immortal.

[Birdframe_Prime]

1 hour ago, (PSN)Nowhere-incoming said:

Many of the frames prior to SG update had no survivability period, it became the primary survival strat for many of those frames exactly because there was no other option available.   

You’re not exactly wrong, but you’re not wholly right either.

Frames with no direct survivability did have options, usually substantial ones in the form of CC. There was also DE’s last dregs of believing that players should run in co-op so that squishy frames could be revived and Tammy frames could benefit from the other functions of those squishy frames.

On the other hand, giving players the current version of Shield Gating was the survivability option that they didn’t have before. Anything is better than nothing in situations like that.

Let’s be clear, though, that it wasn’t intended to be sustained damage mitigation; only protection from one-shot death. So the meta that sprang from it is, and until DE codified it with the upcoming mod, remains unhealthy.

It’s like this one says:

1 minute ago, Zekkii said:

It's funny when you think about what purpose shields were initially supposed to serve.  They're supposed to be weaker, but self-repairing initial form of defense.  Health, in contrast, is supposed to be difficult to repair but reinforced by armour.  So why can I heal millions of health in dozens of different ways, but repairing shield only has niche methods to recover 100s?

Because DE copped out. They did this upcoming change the easy way.

What they could have done is codified Shields as an actual, effective, modded EHP, just like Health.

But they didn’t.

They went the easy route of expanding the Gating mechanic.

We should have mods and abilities and passives and weapon abilities and companion functions that make shield tanking almost as effective as health. And combining the two, with the inability to get one-shot as long as you have shields, would make us nigh un-killable at most levels of play.

Oh, and for you, Zekkii?

Companions can instantly ping us back to full shields on a cool-down, we do have abilities and mods and even other weird functions to restore shields.

What we don’t have, just like we don’t have them for Health, is a universal suite that can restore all our Health to max instantly outside of a few, specific, casts.

It’s actually unusual, in the grand scheme, that Shields alone have a set of multiple mods that restore them in large chunks, passively, just by casting any ability at all.

I mean, we don’t have life-strike for shields, but we can certainly Helminth on the strongest shield-regen ability in the game in just the same way that we can do that with the strongest health regen ability too.

So there’s a surprising bias towards shield regen functions in Warframe, despite what you’ve stated.

[(PSN)Nowhere-incoming]

6 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

You’re not exactly wrong, but you’re not wholly right either.

Frames with no direct survivability did have options, usually substantial ones in the form of CC. There was also DE’s last dregs of believing that players should run in co-op so that squishy frames could be revived and Tammy frames could benefit from the other functions of those squishy frames.

On the other hand, giving players the current version of Shield Gating was the survivability option that they didn’t have before. Anything is better than nothing in situations like that.

Let’s be clear, though, that it wasn’t intended to be sustained damage mitigation; only protection from one-shot death. So the meta that sprang from it is, and until DE codified it with the upcoming mod, remains unhealthy.

It’s like this one says:

Because DE copped out. They did this upcoming change the easy way.

What they could have done is codified Shields as an actual, effective, modded EHP, just like Health.

But they didn’t.

They went the easy route of expanding the Gating mechanic.

We should have mods and abilities and passives and weapon abilities and companion functions that make shield tanking almost as effective as health. And combining the two, with the inability to get one-shot as long as you have shields, would make us nigh un-killable at most levels of play.

Oh, and for you, Zekkii?

Companions can instantly ping us back to full shields on a cool-down, we do have abilities and mods and even other weird functions to restore shields.

What we don’t have, just like we don’t have them for Health, is a universal suite that can restore all our Health to max instantly outside of a few, specific, casts.

It’s actually unusual, in the grand scheme, that Shields alone have a set of multiple mods that restore them in large chunks, passively, just by casting any ability at all.

I mean, we don’t have life-strike for shields, but we can certainly Helminth on the strongest shield-regen ability in the game in just the same way that we can do that with the strongest health regen ability too.

So there’s a surprising bias towards shield regen functions in Warframe, despite what you’ve stated.

I mean yeah I don't disagree with you, but at the same time they continued to add modes, enemies and bosses that made CC more and more redundant.  
And made those same bosses immune to many of the debuffs that would make bringing those squishier frames actually relevant, banshee is an example.
Quite a few older frames have mediocre CC, pretty much all of mags playtime prior to SG was standing in bubbles and running away when a bombard shot a rocket towards you, or spamming polarize with the augment, hiding around corners or blocking doorways with bubbles. 

People jumped on the SG because it was finally a way to play more loose in missions, instead of hiding behind bubbles and standing around corners as mag I could actually jump around and be more dynamic. The other issue was enemies having aimbot but they fixed that so it's not a problem now, but back then it was a huge problem. 
So I think it just all added up to people flocking to SG because they desperately wanted something/anything to alleviate the corner camping playstyle of a lot of squish frames prior to SG. It felt like a breathe of fresh air to be able to actually move around in missions without going down instantly. 
I tried to make shields pre-SG work, I tried everything. There's just not enough when it comes to the mods we have. 

I'd love some bonus effects for shields on some new mods, maybe redirection offshoots. Like regen on mercy kill, radial blasts on depletes, speed increase on full shield stuff like that. 

[Zekkii]

32 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

So there’s a surprising bias towards shield regen functions in Warframe, despite what you’ve stated.

Well we can agree to disagree, but I'll argue my point.  There are 35 things that restore shield and 79 things that restore health. For example:

• 2 shield Arcanes and 12 that heal
• 9 Warframes that restore shields and 18 that heal
• 1 weapon that restores shields and 9 that healh

[Leqesai]

1 hour ago, (PSN)Nowhere-incoming said:

I mean yeah I don't disagree with you, but at the same time they continued to add modes, enemies and bosses that made CC more and more redundant.  
And made those same bosses immune to many of the debuffs that would make bringing those squishier frames actually relevant, banshee is an example.
Quite a few older frames have mediocre CC, pretty much all of mags playtime prior to SG was standing in bubbles and running away when a bombard shot a rocket towards you, or spamming polarize with the augment, hiding around corners or blocking doorways with bubbles. 

People jumped on the SG because it was finally a way to play more loose in missions, instead of hiding behind bubbles and standing around corners as mag I could actually jump around and be more dynamic. The other issue was enemies having aimbot but they fixed that so it's not a problem now, but back then it was a huge problem. 
So I think it just all added up to people flocking to SG because they desperately wanted something/anything to alleviate the corner camping playstyle of a lot of squish frames prior to SG. It felt like a breathe of fresh air to be able to actually move around in missions without going down instantly. 
I tried to make shields pre-SG work, I tried everything. There's just not enough when it comes to the mods we have. 

I'd love some bonus effects for shields on some new mods, maybe redirection offshoots. Like regen on mercy kill, radial blasts on depletes, speed increase on full shield stuff like that. 

Imo people jumped on the shieldgate bandwagon because it was a low-cost massive boost to survivability. Didn't even cost a mod slot to set up a dragon key, which simply allowed for build variety/power that exceeded the intended balance. 

Funny thing is, dragon key shield gate exploitation wasn't even needed. Especially since archon shards were released and the build potential of even traditionally flimsy frames could include relatively strong defensive options.

[Leqesai]

3 hours ago, (PSN)Nowhere-incoming said:

Many of the frames prior to SG update had no survivability period, it became the primary survival strat for many of those frames exactly because there was no other option available.   

Prior to shieldgate CC was the primary form of survivability. And it was very effective. Shieldgate opened up a lot non-cc options for frames/squads but it is disingenuous to say the fragile frames had no survivability. CC was king for years specifically because it added a big layer of survivability to squads. 

[LittleLeoniePrime]

It's not even out yet. I'll play with it first before pretending that I have an educated opinion on it.

[(PSN)Nowhere-incoming]

1 hour ago, Zekkii said:

Well we can agree to disagree, but I'll argue my point.  There are 35 things that restore shield and 79 things that restore health. For example:

• 2 shield Arcanes and 12 that heal
• 9 Warframes that restore shields and 18 that heal
• 1 weapon that restores shields and 9 that healh

Umbral mods, no primed redirection.
No aura mod that buffs shields, ones that heal/give more health/armour.
Mods like health conversion, archon vitality, rage, nothing like those for shields. 
Sentinel healing mod has 12 sec cooldown, sentinel shield mod is 30. 
Hard to add damage reduction to shields, need to use warframe abilities or adaptation.
Shields don't regen under fire, healing can exceed shield recharge rate by orders of magnitude. 
4 different health related options on the archon shards, heal over time, armour, flat health and health orb effectiveness, 1 for shields.
Rebuild shields vs parasitic armour/voracious metastasis. 
Healing return.
Unairu gives 200 armour, no bonus to shields. 
No shield parazon mod, parazon mod that drops health orbs.
Very few mods that buff shields while also giving bonus effects.
DE really like adding magnetic effects to everything. 

 

24 minutes ago, Leqesai said:

Prior to shieldgate CC was the primary form of survivability. And it was very effective. Shieldgate opened up a lot non-cc options for frames/squads but it is disingenuous to say the fragile frames had no survivability. CC was king for years specifically because it added a big layer of survivability to squads. 

Yeah king of sitting in a corner. 

Edited October 4, 2023 by (PSN)Nowhere-incoming

[LittleLeoniePrime]

3 minutes ago, (PSN)Nowhere-incoming said:

1 hour ago, Zekkii said:

Well we can agree to disagree, but I'll argue my point.  There are 35 things that restore shield and 79 things that restore health. For example:

• 2 shield Arcanes and 12 that heal
• 9 Warframes that restore shields and 18 that heal
• 1 weapon that restores shields and 9 that healh

Umbral mods, no primed redirection.
No aura mod that buffs shields, ones that heal/give more health/armour.
Mods like health conversion, archon vitality, rage, nothing like those for shields. 
Sentinel healing mod has 12 sec cooldown, sentinel shield mod is 30. 
Hard to add damage reduction to shields, need to use warframe abilities or adaptation.
Shields don't regen under fire, healing can exceed shield recharge rate by orders of magnitude. 
4 different health related options on the archon shards, heal over time, armour, flat health and health orb effectiveness, 1 for shields.
Rebuild shields vs parasitic armour/voracious metastasis. 
Healing return.
Unairu gives 200 armour, no bonus to shields. 
No shield parazon mod, parazon mod that drops health orbs.
Very few mods that buff shields while also giving bonus effects.

y'all need to head over to the feedback forums with this because this is stuff the devs should actually know about and read lol

Not the whole "mimi my DDK"

[(PSN)Nowhere-incoming]

Just now, LittleLeoniePrime said:

y'all need to head over to the feedback forums with this because this is stuff the devs should actually know about and read lol

Not the whole "mimi my DDK"

I don't really care about the changes either way. I've already moved some stuff around on some of my builds ready for when the update drops. 
Maybe with the changes we might see some new shield mods in the future. 

[LittleLeoniePrime]

2 minutes ago, (PSN)Nowhere-incoming said:

I don't really care about the changes either way. I've already moved some stuff around on some of my builds ready for when the update drops. 
Maybe with the changes we might see some new shield mods in the future. 

I like health/armor/DR tanking and I'm a bit sad you need 3 layers of it to survive laval cap, but hey, that's kinda why I'm happy the DDK meta is finally being addressed C:

If you want survivability you need to mod for it simple as that.

Edited October 4, 2023 by LittleLeoniePrime

[Alguien]

2 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Because DE copped out. They did this upcoming change the easy way.

What they could have done is codified Shields as an actual, effective, modded EHP, just like Health.

But they didn’t.

They went the easy route of expanding the Gating mechanic

They went the easy route while fixing an exploit while going beyond what every other game company does and adding a mod so people can still do the same gameplay as with the exploit...and people still complain. Yeah, can't blame DE on doing the minimum possible

[(PSN)Nowhere-incoming]

2 minutes ago, LittleLeoniePrime said:

I like health/armor/DR tanking and I'm a bit sad you need 3 layers of it to survive laval cap, but hey, that's kinda why I'm happy the DDK meta is finally being addressed C:

If you want survivability you need to mod for it simple as that.

Nah, I'll just play frames that can shield gate without DDK. I already main mag so these changes don't affect me at all. In fact I think it might end up being a buff to my shield gate, because I'll get a longer one.
My other frames have pillage anyway so they're fine.
The only ones really affected are my mesa, saryn and maybe like 1 other that I play, no biggie. I only use saryn for ESO, and I don't really play mesa anymore.

This actually nerfs some of the health based frames now that I think about it, Grendel, nekros, valkyr to name a few. huh.

[LittleLeoniePrime]

28 minutes ago, (PSN)Nowhere-incoming said:

The only ones really affected are my mesa, saryn and maybe like 1 other that I play, no biggie. I only use saryn for ESO, and I don't really play mesa anymore.

This actually nerfs some of the health based frames now that I think about it, Grendel, nekros, valkyr to name a few. huh.

Mesa, Saryn, Grendel, Nekros and Valkyr are for sure all Health/Armor/DR tanks to me.

Mesa has 95% DR per default already.
Saryn can have a ton of health and with health conversion gets really damn tanky.
Grendel literally gets DR for eating people.
Nekros can use health conversion with ease and has shield of shadows.
And valkyr (prime) has the highest base armor of any frame in the entire game.

But I guess that's build variety at it's finest showing that you can bmod hower the f you want and have such different approaches to it :P

Edited October 4, 2023 by LittleLeoniePrime