Slash Dash is practically worthless above a certain enemy level, because of instant death not because of damage

[Agall]

Preface: Long time Excalibur main, since 2013, being my 'most used' at >59%. Within the last couple months is the first time I've done level cap content, where you're doing +2 hour SP Fissure Disruption where enemies eventually hit level 9999. Without going into too much detail on the build I was trying, I was able to get a relatively simple build to reliably hit millions on the initial cast (on armor stripped targets) and 100-250k slash procs, fissure procs getting as high as 500k/tick. Although this build and my previous Exalted Blade build both had a very specific problem against these enemies when using Slash Dash at all.

 

Problem: Slash Dash only has health immunity while its active, so at a certain level, the enemies do enough damage to 1 shot you as soon as the cast ends, even while spamming other abilities. Since you're entirely open to health damage if the cast is longer than a shield gate time or any other immunities. Outside of gimmicky play where you're canceling Slash Dash prematurely to maintain a proper immunity (like Rolling Guard or Vazarin immunity) it makes the 'health immunity' feature of the ability practically worthless. This is while being the host or not, where there's a guaranteed window of health vulnerability prior to the player being able to do anything to prevent an immediate 1 shot upon exiting a long-chained Slash Dash (at no point will Excalibur have enough EHP to tank a single hit from level 2000 enemies, nor should).

I believe this problem can be addressed without breaking or drastically buffing Excalibur, with the intent to specifically prevent this problem. Whether that's through a simple addition to the ability or through an augment.

 

Solution(s):

-The simplest solution would be to make Excalibur immune to shield damage as well. This would allow any shield gating mechanic to function after the cast finishes and would incentivize long Slash Dash chains. If giving this baseline is too OP, then simply change Surging Dash and/or Purging Slash augments to give Excalibur shield immunity during the ability as well. That would at least force someone to occupy a mod slot that would otherwise be used for Rolling Guard, if not directly incentivize a certain type of gameplay with the ability (and Purging Slash is practically worthless in its current form, but could be much more useful given the recently announced shield rework).

-A simple addition would be to extend the health immunity after Slash Dash finishes its cast, something like 0.33-0.5 seconds after it completes. This would compensate for network connectivity since the player would need time to do something (shield gate, operator form, another Slash Dash, etc). The only concern being that its possible to make Excalibur effectively immune by simply chaining Slash Dash, assuming he has enough energy to do so. This could also scale off of how many enemies Excalibur interacts with to incentivize long Slash Dash chains.

-*edit* Another relatively simple solution, related to the first one, would be to add a shield generation feature to either or both augments, where each enemy hit regenerates a certain amount of shields, enough to provide a 0.33 second shield gate natively after striking the last target.

-More complex solutions would involve updating Excalibur's relatively mediocre passive to include some sort of mechanic that would solve this problem, something I won't dive too deep into. Simplistic recommendations would involve giving some level of defensive utility when using swords, whether that's an automatic 360 degree parry feature when in Slash Dash (which would apply to Exalted Blade as well) that would incentivize a player to use a sword or EB specifically. Any of these solutions would be more complex than a few lines of code like adding/tweaking existing systems like the other suggestions.

 

Conclusion: Overall, something needs to change about Slash Dash, specifically to make the ability fully usable in high level content. I think the solutions I propose would be relatively simple additions that wouldn't drastically increase Excalibur's power level, specifically pointing to shield immunity as the best solution, in my opinion. I think the more Warframes who don't need to use the Rolling Guard + Varazin combination to survive against high level enemies, the better, this suggestion being a mechanism to accomplish that goal, especially given the ability's current inability to function with shield gating.

 

 

Edited October 2, 2023 by Agall

[Leqesai]

Thankfully there is a change coming to shield gate that should mostly mitigate some of the problems you're describing.

[Agall]

6 minutes ago, Leqesai said:

Thankfully there is a change coming to shield gate that should mostly mitigate some of the problems you're describing.

You're referring to commencing a Slash Dash with a full shield value, and hoping its immunity period exceeds Slash Dash's duration? Unless there's something specific you're referring to regarding Slash Dash I haven't seen yet.

[Leqesai]

8 minutes ago, Agall said:

You're referring to commencing a Slash Dash with a full shield value, and hoping its immunity period exceeds Slash Dash's duration? Unless there's something specific you're referring to regarding Slash Dash I haven't seen yet.

I'm referring to the proportional shield value changes resulting in a larger shield gate, coupled with shield cooldown changes which can result in more consistent invalidation of one-shot mechanics. Even if you're taking shield damage, the shield downtime reduction could result in more partial break which can block some of the attacks.

Not a solution to the problem, but it may mitigate some of the issues. Especially when you consider the 100% increase to damage reduction applied to shields.

[Agall]

4 minutes ago, Leqesai said:

I'm referring to the proportional shield value changes resulting in a larger shield gate, coupled with shield cooldown changes which can result in more consistent invalidation of one-shot mechanics. Even if you're taking shield damage, the shield downtime reduction could result in more partial break which can block some of the attacks.

Not a solution to the problem, but it may mitigate some of the issues. Especially when you consider the 100% increase to damage reduction applied to shields.

An idea I thought of after the fact:

Another relatively simple solution, related to the first one, would be to add a shield generation feature to either or both augments, where each enemy hit regenerates a certain amount of shields, enough to provide a 0.33 second shield gate natively after striking the last target. Worst case scenario, they could simply add this to Purging Slash, which would unfortunately prevent me from using Surging Dash (which the build in question uses) but it would be a good trade off for level cap content.

 

Usually my shield would survive through Slash Dash, but with how many Eximus spawn in those kinds of missions, there's plenty of enemies who are immune to Radial Blind that would otherwise be incapacitated during a Slash Dash. I don't believe Naramon's #1 operator ability, the lifting wave one, affects Eximus units to compensate either. Maybe if Radial Javelin could strip overguard, then that could be a clever combination of abilities to solve the problem too.

Edited October 2, 2023 by Agall

[xXDragonGodXx]

1 hour ago, Agall said:

EHP to tank a single hit from level 2000 enemies, nor should

How much EHP do I need to do this? xD

[Agall]

46 minutes ago, xXDragonGodXx said:

How much EHP do I need to do this? xD

Yes

[xXDragonGodXx]

1 hour ago, Agall said:

Yes

I was serious tho... Does 720k EHP work?

[Agall]

On 2023-10-02 at 4:56 PM, xXDragonGodXx said:

I was serious tho... Does 720k EHP work?

No clue

On 2023-10-02 at 1:17 PM, Leqesai said:

I'm referring to the proportional shield value changes resulting in a larger shield gate, coupled with shield cooldown changes which can result in more consistent invalidation of one-shot mechanics. Even if you're taking shield damage, the shield downtime reduction could result in more partial break which can block some of the attacks.

Not a solution to the problem, but it may mitigate some of the issues. Especially when you consider the 100% increase to damage reduction applied to shields.

The answer was Pillage and [adaptation]. Haven't gotten to test the reworked setup at level cap, but it should natively function because of the delay in shield generation from Pillage. You cast it before Slash Dash, use the delay and subsequent shield gate to break Slash Dash, recast Pillage, and back to Slash Dash. The build also doesn't require much power strength, so it freed up a bunch of mod slots compared to Wrathful Advance.

This also means its going to be even better on the 18th when I can get more than 1.33 seconds of shield gating.

[Agall]

Pillage was NOT the solution since against Grineer, you're regularly put into melee range of Nox, where no amount of shield gating will keep you alive without enough health+armor. The struggle started around level 2000.

[Qriist]

On 2023-10-05 at 10:16 AM, Agall said:

The answer was Pillage

On 2023-10-09 at 9:49 AM, Agall said:

Pillage was NOT the solution

This just made me giggle. :D

[Fred_Avant_2019]

Le 09/10/2023 à 15:49, Agall a dit :

Pillage was NOT the solution since against Grineer, you're regularly put into melee range of Nox, where no amount of shield gating will keep you alive without enough health+armor. The struggle started around level 2000.

Even the blind won't save you, thanks to Overguard mechanics being present on Nox units.

I believe Atlas has the same issues with Landslide. (Losing shields when you are hit while immune)

 

[Harutomata]

I had a similar idea some months ago, great to know I'm not the only one who thinks it should be changed.

I like to use pillage on a lot of frames and I'm going to give pillage excalibur a try after the next update.
I'm not an excalibur main at all, but sometimes I play as him, mostly because of nostalgia since he was the starter frame I picked.
Excalibur getting more survivability and a proper slide attack on his exalted blade that either used a 360° or a larger angle projectile are the changes I'd like to see for him so I'd play him for more than just nostalgia.
Until then my fav Excalibur build is playing as Baruuk instead.

[Tiltskillet]

13 hours ago, Fred_Avant_2019 said:

Even the blind won't save you, thanks to Overguard mechanics being present on Nox units.

Not sure about Radial Blind, and I'll have to check when I'm in game, but nearly all blinds work through Overguard.  The one on Exalted Blade does, for instance.

edit: Nope, RB doesn't work, unlike most blinds.

Edited October 15, 2023 by Tiltskillet

[Agall]

On 2023-10-14 at 12:56 PM, Tiltskillet said:

Not sure about Radial Blind, and I'll have to check when I'm in game, but nearly all blinds work through Overguard.  The one on Exalted Blade does, for instance.

edit: Nope, RB doesn't work, unlike most blinds.

EB's radial blind does though? I usually don't get close enough to find out when using EB.

 

On 2023-10-14 at 12:11 PM, Harutomata said:

I had a similar idea some months ago, great to know I'm not the only one who thinks it should be changed.

I like to use pillage on a lot of frames and I'm going to give pillage excalibur a try after the next update.
I'm not an excalibur main at all, but sometimes I play as him, mostly because of nostalgia since he was the starter frame I picked.
Excalibur getting more survivability and a proper slide attack on his exalted blade that either used a 360° or a larger angle projectile are the changes I'd like to see for him so I'd play him for more than just nostalgia.
Until then my fav Excalibur build is playing as Baruuk instead.

Ultimately with the shield gate system, I found a tolerable solution. I had forgotten that Unairu has an immunity feature that is easy to proc, especially at higher levels. In combination with that and the standard shield recharge/reduced delay mod, the 4 second immunity is enough time for Excalibur to regenerate 370 shields. The process being Unairu operator death into slash dash, since you're health immunity but not shield, wait for shield gate proc to jump (breaking slash dash) and enter operator. The build runs 32 second combo duration with weapon mods/arcanes, so not being able to use Naramon isn't a dealbreaker. 

 

On 2023-10-13 at 5:28 PM, Qriist said:

This just made me giggle. :D

There was a Grineer disruption on Mars that at about lvl 2500, there was some affix or really bad enemy combination or bug, where our whole group kept getting downed instantly from the map being entirely covered in toxin. We're talking an entire open space that was instant Warframe and operator death, so shield gating was not enough when there's a millisecond of health vulnerability. Something I've solved by using Unairu, slash dash's health immunity, and shield gating without it making the play boring/unfun. 

[Tiltskillet]

1 hour ago, Agall said:

EB's radial blind does though?

Last I checked, yes.  Radial Blind is very unusual in not working when most sources of blind do.

[Agall]

54 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

Last I checked, yes.  Radial Blind is very unusual in not working when most sources of blind do.

I'll have to check when I get home, see if specifically Exalted Blade's mini radial blind will affect enemies with overguard active. Would be cool if they did.

 

Naramon's finisher setup does go through overguard on eximus which is handy, but not useful when Varazin or Unairu is required for reliable immunity.

[Tiltskillet]

3 minutes ago, Agall said:

I'll have to check when I get home, see if specifically Exalted Blade's mini radial blind will affect enemies with overguard active. Would be cool if they did.

 

Naramon's finisher setup does go through overguard on eximus which is handy, but not useful when Varazin or Unairu is required for reliable immunity.

There's a fairly complete list of these oddities here, if you're interested:

Haven't added Dagath yet.

[Agall]

27 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

There's a fairly complete list of these oddities here, if you're interested:

Haven't added Dagath yet.

Searching "Excal" and my brief readthrough on both pages yielded zero on Exalibur :( 

[Tiltskillet]

16 minutes ago, Agall said:

Searching "Excal" and my brief readthrough on both pages yielded zero on Exalibur :( 

You'll have to open up the "Ash through Gyre" spoiler block in the second post. 

 

[Agall]

50 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

You'll have to open up the "Ash through Gyre" spoiler block in the second post. 

 

Makes sense.

My slash dash build was getting a bit stale so I've been playing around with different elemental combinations for chromatic EB. I've generally stuck to toxin or toxin+radiation with [Archon Continuity] but I've also tested the more 'meta' heat with [Archon Vitality]. Currently what I'll be testing more of is viral+radiation which is achieved with two 60/60 mods with heat+electric for rad, and [Primed Fever Strike] and the emissive as cold for viral.

 

I'll see how useful the radial blind is against high level eximus the next chance I get, likely with one of these variations and my god tier 'primer' Furis Incarnon build.

[AegidiusF]

Il y a 3 heures, Tiltskillet a dit :

Haven't added Dagath yet.

Fortunately, because her 1st was CCing Eximus and got fixed on the last hotfix. 

Better wait two or three more hotfixes before testing 😁😇😁

[Tiltskillet]

2 minutes ago, (NSW)AegisFifi said:

Fortunately, because her 1st was CCing Eximus and got fixed on the last hotfix. 

Better wait two or three more hotfixes before testing 😁😇😁

Yeah, I generally like to wait on playing new frames at all, basically so I don't get hung up on things that get changed quickly.   Thanks for pointing this out though, because it makes the wording that was chosen for that patch note interesting:

• Fixed Dagath’s Wyrd Scythes causing enemies that are crowd control immune to move in ultra slow-motion. Jackal (Circuit and Fossa Assasination) was noticeably affected by this as it slowed the fight down to a point where it could not be completed. 

Really going for the "This is a beneficial bugfix, not a nerf" angle.   It can be both, and I'm not hung up on bugfixes that also happen to be nerfs, or even straight out nerfs that have some justification behind them.  I just wish they'd just be candid about it.

[Yasha-7HS]

Found this thread randomly looking at some bugs. 
This is something that I've brought up multiple years ago, many times. Hilariously, Wrathful advance which is better in literally every way even when subsumed has full immunity. Voruna's 2(Fangs of Raksh I believe?) also has full immunity and without depending on a melee weapon can practically delete enemies at any level. 

Slash dash can't even do reasonable damage without exploiting incarnon passives, and can't keep you alive as a gap closer. It ironically makes you more likely to die than just bullet jumping over and blocking, it builds less combo and you're more likely to get knocked down. Honestly, with one mod you get further, faster than slash dash with a ton of range and energy does. 
It's crazy how bad the ability is even for new players, and the only good damage strategy it has is spending energy at a genuinely insane rate by casting and immediately cancelling against one enemy, with the functional best melees in the game that do more damage with light attacks for 0 energy. 

[Redrigoth]

Use adaptation and get 1200 armor(full umbral set and archon shard maybe) for 98% damage reduction. that might help