Dagath looks more like a headless stablemaster than horseman

[Nebbers]

I don't have much to say, just that I was really hoping Dagath was going to use a Kaithe the way Yareli uses a K-Drive. It would have been a great opportunity for Dagath to use her cool new melee on horseback, much like the riders in Duviri with impressive biceps. I was hoping that maybe she's have some sort of passive to kaithes in general (such as using a melee while atop one? 🥺) but that doesn't seem to be the case.

I know Dagath is already out of the oven, but she looked like the Warframe to include some fun new mobility options in general missions.

[SDGDen]

people have already pointed this out but: yareli's merulina is garbage and the reason *why* it is garbage is the same reason why dagath having a kaithe riding ability would simply just make her as bad as yareli.

both the kdrive and the kaithe are vehicles designed specifically for open-world content, they are not neccesarily designed to fight on and are definitely not designed for indoors tilesets. they are prone to get stuck on things, kaithes can't fly indoors without getting stuck on literally everything so you'd be stuck with ground horse mode which.... still isn't easy to move in indoortilesets. 

on yareli, this issue is exacerbated by the fact that merulina is her survivability power and that most of her synergy is tied up in merulina. yareli loses practically half of her potential simply by not being on merulina 

 

if dagath had a "ride kaithe" ability, it'd literally just be the slot people use for subsumed abilities. 

 

[PorpitaPorpita]

Fully agree with Dagath needing a rideable Kaithe to actually get the most out of her concept. 

Also disagree (for the hundredth time) about Yareli being bad. It's way more fun to me to ride around on Merulina than it is to bullet jump around a map. I just find it smoother, more entertaining, and a more enjoyable experience. I wish Kaithe enjoyers would be able to get the same chance :(

[OxiumHeart]

I'll repeat again that kaithes can work very well in regular tilesets as proven by taking one into a captura scene, even one with narrow hallways. There would be a learning curve that, sure, some people wouldn't want to bother with, but those people wouldn't have to play Dagath. There are 53 other frames.

But after thinking about it so much I've started to feel like more than the lack of actual kaithe is the lack of identity in Dagath's kit as a result. Her four summons kaithes for a brief animation. That's it. Yes, there's the idle animation, but how often do you see that in missions? Essentially everything else is themed after a grim reaper type situation, of which we already have two in Nekros and Sevagoth. The headless horseman angle was what was going to make her unique and give her an identity that hasn't been seen yet in the game. As is, I'm so much less excited for her than I was before the devstream.

[PsiWarp]

Took Grendel on a Kaithe ride on the Plains and honestly, if Dagath's Rakhali were summonable, as long as she didn't fly while indoors (not saying she shouldn't, but on different activation key-binds than triple jump, summon/dodge while in the air, and bullet jump)... Kaithes handle the cramped terrain well, better than Merulina without extensive practice by the Yareli player.

For doorways, if she won't fit through while riding Rakhali, then let her phase through it like Necramechs grinding their heads over low ceilings in tilesets. She's all about that spectral realm right? Part faceless, part ghost.

Edited October 3, 2023 by PsiWarp

[Nebbers]

I'm glad folks share the sentiment. I find modes of movement like Titania's archwing, Sevagoth's shadow-form, Yareli's k-drive, Grendel's roll, Gauss's dash, and I'm sure I'm missing others, all really interesting.

Damage and status effects are nice and I want them, but they're not really what has me choose which warframe to play. I've got tons of ways to kill stuff with really interesting melee weapons and guns. Dagath looks like she'll be a fine warframe, good for killing stuff, I was just hoping for something more interesting and on theme.

[(PSN)rexis12]

It's just the design of Warframe, especially some maps that can cause 'issues' with sort of... experimental... I guess movement options.

Like, here the thing. Titania's Arch Wing form is probably the gold standard of inplementing another movement system into the base game. And we need understand the concessions that Pixie Mode has over regular Arch Wing.

For 1. Archwing is a free Omni directional movement options where you can go in every axis, from horizontal, vertical, to diagonal, it's a huge freedom of movement that's not found in Merulina or Kaithe's. Hell this is make even more obvious when the Arch Wing version transplanted on Titania was the version without momentum maintained, which is NOT something you can say for K-Drives and Kaithe's.

2. Titania's size is drastically reduced to allow that freedom of movement. If Titania was the same size, the high-to-absurd mobility of Razorwing would make Titania much less fun for both the regular players and those that focus on her, even then the most common 'complaint' of playing Razorwing with high speeds that make her fun, is that we keep slamming into the walls. In contrast Merulina's jump and movement is the same type in the open worlds, and then mixed with K-Drives inherently less air control compared to regular frame movement we are getting the worst of both options, with her size causing clipping and issues with the tile set not designed for the size of a Frame on a K-Drive.

Kaithe movement, and like Merulina, would need severe readjustments if they were to bring into missions, to compensate for the sheer difference in the Open World movement mechanics to translate into the simulatenously both cramped and vertical spaces of Warframe tile sets. I cannot tell you how frustrated it is to have been stuck on ground level as a Necramechs during Orphix missions, and having to do that with either K-Drives or deal with Kaithe floaty controls in comparison to the more tight movement of Base Warframe would be a big blow to Dagath's general game plan.

It would be fun to have Kaithes in missions, but considering that someone has said that there's a learning curve to just 'using' the ability in the regular tile set just tells me that it would be a common source of frustration for the regular player base that would want to use her whole kit but would be limited due to one part of it that would throw her off completely and drive people away from using her, or God forbid slap another ability ontonit just like how many people want to use Yarelli because of her passives and other abilities but don't want to deal with the headache that is K-Drive in doors.

Remember, while Merulina was slapped on straight with all the cons and... well CONS of K-Drives, Razorwing was changed enough that it was able to keep all the Pros of Archwing movement, and honestly I don't see any of that being done with Kaithe considering how much it is just Archwing but worse.

[OxiumHeart]

7 minutes ago, (PSN)rexis12 said:

It's just the design of Warframe, especially some maps that can cause 'issues' with sort of... experimental... I guess movement options.

Like, here the thing. Titania's Arch Wing form is probably the gold standard of inplementing another movement system into the base game. And we need understand the concessions that Pixie Mode has over regular Arch Wing.

For 1. Archwing is a free Omni directional movement options where you can go in every axis, from horizontal, vertical, to diagonal, it's a huge freedom of movement that's not found in Merulina or Kaithe's. Hell this is make even more obvious when the Arch Wing version transplanted on Titania was the version without momentum maintained, which is NOT something you can say for K-Drives and Kaithe's.

2. Titania's size is drastically reduced to allow that freedom of movement. If Titania was the same size, the high-to-absurd mobility of Razorwing would make Titania much less fun for both the regular players and those that focus on her, even then the most common 'complaint' of playing Razorwing with high speeds that make her fun, is that we keep slamming into the walls. In contrast Merulina's jump and movement is the same type in the open worlds, and then mixed with K-Drives inherently less air control compared to regular frame movement we are getting the worst of both options, with her size causing clipping and issues with the tile set not designed for the size of a Frame on a K-Drive.

Kaithe movement, and like Merulina, would need severe readjustments if they were to bring into missions, to compensate for the sheer difference in the Open World movement mechanics to translate into the simulatenously both cramped and vertical spaces of Warframe tile sets. I cannot tell you how frustrated it is to have been stuck on ground level as a Necramechs during Orphix missions, and having to do that with either K-Drives or deal with Kaithe floaty controls in comparison to the more tight movement of Base Warframe would be a big blow to Dagath's general game plan.

It would be fun to have Kaithes in missions, but considering that someone has said that there's a learning curve to just 'using' the ability in the regular tile set just tells me that it would be a common source of frustration for the regular player base that would want to use her whole kit but would be limited due to one part of it that would throw her off completely and drive people away from using her, or God forbid slap another ability ontonit just like how many people want to use Yarelli because of her passives and other abilities but don't want to deal with the headache that is K-Drive in doors.

Remember, while Merulina was slapped on straight with all the cons and... well CONS of K-Drives, Razorwing was changed enough that it was able to keep all the Pros of Archwing movement, and honestly I don't see any of that being done with Kaithe considering how much it is just Archwing but worse.

Okay, then give her a passive to summon the kaithe from the gearwheel in any mission. It's an easy compromise, doesn't make her overpowered, and you wouldn't have to use it if you didn't want to. At least it would be there to give her more of an identity, and people that want it would be happy.

[PorpitaPorpita]

I think there definitely needs to be some kind of change, because as she was in the showcase, there's not really any reason to play her over any other DPS Warframe. There's no particularly unique mechanics, no special flow, no... anything, really. It feels like she'd just fall into the pile with the other recent and relatively unused frames like Gyre and Caliban.

Edited October 3, 2023 by PorpitaPorpita

[iKLuTcHiTz]

I thought she was supposed to be a goth nun Lol literally thats what she looks like to me and I love it

[Birdframe_Prime]

Wow, people really just... don't know where mythology and context for frame designs actually come from, do they?

I mean, everyone went on and on about Voruna being a 'were'wolf frame, when she was just the 'wolf' frame, and now we have the 'headless horsewoman' frame and people keep thinking of Sleepy Hollow (and its inspiration) instead of the original myth of the Dullahan.

Which is the general term for a headless evil spirit, of course, but also the term used in Irish fairy tales to depict the specific and deliberate incarnation of 'following doom'. Where a being with no head would stalk their victim to the ends of the earth to ensure their death.

A dark figure that pronounced doom by speaking the name of their victim, who wouldn't just be a horseman, but also ride in a carriage with the Banshee to announce that death was coming, who killed with a bone whip made from spinal chord, and who guaranteed a soul would be ushered to the afterlife. Even those who were not the victim could be caught up in the hunt unless they hid or placed gold in the Dullahan's path to divert it.

The 'headless horseman' is a much more recent myth from America and isn't really relevant, especially not with the power set and signature weapon that Dagath was revealed with.

So, apart from the more practical reasons of not riding a Kaithe in mission, there's also the Lore that shows that she used to have one and it's now part of her armour (like Voruna's wolves), and on top of that there's the mythological inspiration that would equally have had her driving a coach pulled by Kaithes (and what does her 4 do? Summon an entire carriage team of Kaithes...)

[Leqesai]

4 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Wow, people really just... don't know where mythology and context for frame designs actually come from, do they?

I mean, everyone went on and on about Voruna being a 'were'wolf frame, when she was just the 'wolf' frame, and now we have the 'headless horsewoman' frame and people keep thinking of Sleepy Hollow (and its inspiration) instead of the original myth of the Dullahan.

Which is the general term for a headless evil spirit, of course, but also the term used in Irish fairy tales to depict the specific and deliberate incarnation of 'following doom'. Where a being with no head would stalk their victim to the ends of the earth to ensure their death.

Birdman why you always gotta be spittin' dat truth!

Edited October 5, 2023 by Leqesai

[PR1D3]

No. You people who demand for this are not even remotely thinking about this from a broader gameplay and programming perspective, and you're only concerned about the whims of your own passion. It would had straight up been another Yareli situation if not worse if they were to do that. For what? Your "cool factor" where you lose more than you gain simply due to the particulars of that gameplay being exceedingly limited (and there's no amount of bs cope you can say to prove otherwise). Less precise movement, less movement options, less weapon options. I would wager that being a larger undertaking design wise and programing wise than what you actually see on the surface. You talk about having her hit stuff with her melee on horse back. That doesn't exist in the game, so that's going to require time to work out just on the functionality alone. Yareli didn't get any special treatment like that, why would they do it for her? And you can't seriously expect it to use the default Kaithe abilities? Cause they definitely wouldn't be able to copy/paste that code. So more work, ability design planning and importantly TIME. How would it function in regular gameplay with enemies? How would you balance all that? There are things you have to answer for. This isn't magic. You guys going "who cares" is not a good answer. It take time and effort and they have a specific rotation schedule when it comes to WF releases. I personally don't like how it is currently but it is what it is and you can't just ignore the whole of the development time and scheduling.

Cause to be honest, although I love her, Yareli still have problems. DE have a problem with warframe design in general. Not only does it come off as there's no clear design bible but they're half afraid to do certain things. Equinox being a huge elephant in the room given her chunkiness with 7 abilities. . Those 2 frame give me pause when considering having them designing something of this nature. You people are clearly operating on hype and the idea of new/unique = auto good idea without any thought or consideration with the whole of the game.

[(PSN)robotwars7]

it never fails to amaze me how people actually want these awful abilities, with no regard for the consequences of how insanely useless they would be, and how 90% of us would use it once, then immediately Helminth something else over it.

Exalted transport abilities (unless flying) are, and always will be, trash-tier when you can just Operator Dash or use Archwing. 

[Skoomaseller]

again as a Yareli main (Yareli most used frame as well)

you do not want exalted vehicles unless they're something like Titania's Razorwing. Sounds cool as fr*ck, yes, but DE cannot get it right.

2 years on and DE still has not ironed out the bugs that still plague Merulina.

Edited October 5, 2023 by Skoomaseller

[S2Weak]

2小時前 , (PSN)robotwars7 說:

it never fails to amaze me how people actually want these awful abilities, with no regard for the consequences of how insanely useless they would be, and how 90% of us would use it once, then immediately Helminth something else over it.

Exalted transport abilities (unless flying) are, and always will be, trash-tier when you can just Operator Dash or use Archwing. 

Summon some ghost horses charge with a super long casting animation is even more useless.

 

At least make her riding on ghost horses then it would just be a worse Hydroid's 2nd ability.

[SneakyErvin]

Not sure why people get idea that horseman must mean mounted for everything. Even those that think Sleepy Hollow must have missed 99% of the appearances of the horseman when he makes the kills, which are practically all done on foot. And Dagath isnt even based on the Sleepy Hollow horseman, she is inspired by the same core myth that happened to also inspire Sleepy Hollow i.e the Dullahan.

Ontop of that horseman =/= cavalry. While all cavalrymen are horsemen, not all horsemen are cavalrymen. The hessian from Sleepy Hollow was not a cavalryman, he was a swordsman getting around on his horse while fighting on foot when the time came. Complaining that Dagath doesnt have a horse is like complaining that Mesa doesnt have one even though she is bandido or cowboy themed.

[(PSN)rexis12]

7 hours ago, Skoomaseller said:

again as a Yareli main (Yareli most used frame as well)

you do not want exalted vehicles unless they're something like Titania's Razorwing. Sounds cool as fr*ck, yes, but DE cannot get it right.

2 years on and DE still has not ironed out the bugs that still plague Merulina.

"But it would be SO UNIQUE"

Yeah, just like how Merulina is so unique that it doesn't allow us to use Helmith Abilities. I'm sure people want that huh?

 

[Skoomaseller]

14 hours ago, (PSN)rexis12 said:

"But it would be SO UNIQUE"

Yeah, just like how Merulina is so unique that it doesn't allow us to use Helmith Abilities. I'm sure people want that huh?

I think it's fine to have ideas like that, it's just that DE can't execute it right lmao. we skater girls be suffering out here

[SneakyErvin]

16 hours ago, (PSN)rexis12 said:

"But it would be SO UNIQUE"

Yeah, just like how Merulina is so unique that it doesn't allow us to use Helmith Abilities. I'm sure people want that huh?

 

Also dont forget the uniqueness that would come from having even more "frame" parts in the middle of your reticle as you try to shoot something. This time you'd get the unique head of a horse occupying that reticle, all for the small price of your sanity!

[Almxce]

On 2023-10-04 at 11:07 PM, Birdframe_Prime said:

Wow, people really just... don't know where mythology and context for frame designs actually come from, do they?

I mean, everyone went on and on about Voruna being a 'were'wolf frame, when she was just the 'wolf' frame, and now we have the 'headless horsewoman' frame and people keep thinking of Sleepy Hollow (and its inspiration) instead of the original myth of the Dullahan.

Which is the general term for a headless evil spirit, of course, but also the term used in Irish fairy tales to depict the specific and deliberate incarnation of 'following doom'. Where a being with no head would stalk their victim to the ends of the earth to ensure their death.

A dark figure that pronounced doom by speaking the name of their victim, who wouldn't just be a horseman, but also ride in a carriage with the Banshee to announce that death was coming, who killed with a bone whip made from spinal chord, and who guaranteed a soul would be ushered to the afterlife. Even those who were not the victim could be caught up in the hunt unless they hid or placed gold in the Dullahan's path to divert it.

The 'headless horseman' is a much more recent myth from America and isn't really relevant, especially not with the power set and signature weapon that Dagath was revealed with.

So, apart from the more practical reasons of not riding a Kaithe in mission, there's also the Lore that shows that she used to have one and it's now part of her armour (like Voruna's wolves), and on top of that there's the mythological inspiration that would equally have had her driving a coach pulled by Kaithes (and what does her 4 do? Summon an entire carriage team of Kaithes...)

Great post. I'm not sure why people are acting as though riding a kaithe in hallways is make or break, it's a bit mad tbh