Rivens for Warframes

[_SYNTHDEMON_]

Would love to see some type of "Lost Artifact" appear in the game as obtainable item.

Which would allow us to cycle it as we do with Rivens for weapons.

 

This to gain an additional type of buff to enhance our Warframe's abilities/skin features.

 

P.S.

Please DE spare us and don't make some skin features on the cycles like a blown up head or something. ahahahaha that would make us look ridiculous while OP for example.. hwhaha nah XD that would be too cruel 

 

 

[KIREEK]

Rivens goal was to shift the usage of weapons, a similar thing already exists for warframes, it's the helmith system.

While rivens use disposition, the helmith system uses the frequency for the buffs, so being a grendel main will benefit you more than a saryn main.

This isn't to say i wouldn't mind rivens for warframes, warframe is one of those games where the more broken it is the better it gets.

Edited October 9, 2023 by KIREEK

[Waeleto]

Please no

[AntifreezeUnder0]

34 minutes ago, KIREEK said:

While rivens use disposition, the helmith system uses the frequency for the buffs, so being a grendel main will benefit you more than a saryn main.

I mean certain frames similar to weapons do better without rivens than some with rivens. 

 

 

I  would prefer riven like mods in sense that everyone gets same stats despite of frames popularity, like it have 3 positive stats and 1 negative. Simply for freeing up mod slots to more shenanigans. Cause many frames hit certain cap already with current mods available.

It should be something rare, hard to get or require to take part in event which appears few times per year , so its rewards worthy the effort not just another 1 day get all and complain things gets too easy after getting or its too hard before getting.

Then again i would like to see builds to fullest potential just to see how broken game can get, and have options to have absurd builds which works, althought shouldnt.

. 

[CosoMalvadoNG]

Here we go again.

 

[Chewarette]

Riven mods were already a bad idea to begin with, don't bring that to Warframes please. Of course you'd like to get a +Range +Strength +Duration -Shield recharge mod but that ain't gonna happen

[quxier]

3 hours ago, KIREEK said:

Rivens goal was to shift the usage of weapons, thing is a similar thing already exists for warframes, it's the helmith system.

So why there are rivens for "strong" weapons? If you want to boost usage of weak weapon then just boost them (even via randomness like Riven).

2 hours ago, AntifreezeUnder0 said:

3 hours ago, KIREEK said:

While rivens use disposition, the helmith system uses the frequency for the buffs, so being a grendel main will benefit you more than a saryn main.

I mean certain frames similar to weapons do better without rivens than some with rivens. 

+1. I got Riven for Felarx and I wonder if I should keep it (even for rerolling).

1 hour ago, Chewarette said:

Riven mods were already a bad idea to begin with, don't bring that to Warframes please. Of course you'd like to get a +Range +Strength +Duration -Shield recharge mod but that ain't gonna happen

Not always. If you get 3 Range, Strength and Duration you will probably have weak buffs.

2 hours ago, AntifreezeUnder0 said:

I  would prefer riven like mods in sense that everyone gets same stats despite of frames popularity, like it have 3 positive stats and 1 negative. Simply for freeing up mod slots to more shenanigans. Cause many frames hit certain cap already with current mods available.

It should be something rare, hard to get or require to take part in event which appears few times per year , so its rewards worthy the effort not just another 1 day get all and complain things gets too easy after getting or its too hard before getting.

Then again i would like to see builds to fullest potential just to see how broken game can get, and have options to have absurd builds which works, althought shouldnt.

To be honest I would like more niche stuff in such system. Those don't need to be directly power related (e.g Strength). Helminth/Invigoration is failure on that part. You get buffs that are sometimes weak or just don't work good with certain frames. List of buffs are VERY small as well.

Sadly DE is afraid of such things. We have few system with just +X damage. If we have something else it may not work (e.g. Incarnon melee perk that DON'T increase jump height).

[LittleLeoniePrime]

5 hours ago, Waeleto said:

Please no

this.

And I'll say that Helminth exists to spice things up with invigorations.

And Archon Shards like @vixenpixel rightfully mentioned.

Edited October 9, 2023 by LittleLeoniePrime

[SDGDen]

1 hour ago, quxier said:

So why there are rivens for "strong" weapons? If you want to boost usage of weak weapon then just boost them (even via randomness like Riven).

+1. I got Riven for Felarx and I wonder if I should keep it (even for rerolling).

Not always. If you get 3 Range, Strength and Duration you will probably have weak buffs.

To be honest I would like more niche stuff in such system. Those don't need to be directly power related (e.g Strength). Helminth/Invigoration is failure on that part. You get buffs that are sometimes weak or just don't work good with certain frames. List of buffs are VERY small as well.

Sadly DE is afraid of such things. We have few system with just +X damage. If we have something else it may not work (e.g. Incarnon melee perk that DON'T increase jump height).

 

so the reason for the riven system to boost weak weapons is because not every weapon is supposed to be balanced against eachother, weapons are balanced against other weapons in the same tier, and the player is supposed to grind their way through these tiers as they progress through the game. the point of rivens is to allow players to bring their favourite lower tier weapons up to the level where they can compete with higher tier weapons, incarnon adapters exist for the same reason now. 

this is also why the highest tier weapons tend to have very mediocre dispositions and why the disposition system exists, weapons like the felarx and phenmor are not supposed to get rivens that are worth it for now.

the reason why *every* weapon has a riven is because over time, balance changes. weapons have changed in disposition in response to upticks in their usage before (the lanka lost a lot of it's disposition due to it being popular as an eidolon hunting weapon before the rubico prime came out iirc) 


there's no reason to have rivens for warframes since the purpose that rivens serve should not exist within warframes. all warframes are balanced against eachother. there's not a warframe equivalent of the lato or braton that would need a big bump in stats to compete with more end-game warframes.

if warframes worked on the same tiered balance system as weapons, then gyre should be the strongest warframe by a large margin (since she's the most end-game warframe to obtain, being locked behind the zariman questline) while the starter frames should be the weakest, followed by rhino (as rhino is practically the first warframe you can reasonably obtain, technically you can get the blueprint for gara sooner but her parts are dropped from higher level bounties).

 

[quxier]

11 minutes ago, SDGDen said:

the reason why *every* weapon has a riven is because over time, balance changes. weapons have changed in disposition in response to upticks in their usage before (the lanka lost a lot of it's disposition due to it being popular as an eidolon hunting weapon before the rubico prime came out iirc) 

Balance changes but how many times the worst weapon becomes great AND vice versa? There is probably slight shifts in dispositions but that's it. Unless there is some huge change (update) weapons will stay in the same tier. It's just almost waste to generate rivens for such weapons.

15 minutes ago, SDGDen said:

there's no reason to have rivens for warframes since the purpose that rivens serve should not exist within warframes. all warframes are balanced against eachother. there's not a warframe equivalent of the lato or braton that would need a big bump in stats to compete with more end-game warframes.

if warframes worked on the same tiered balance system as weapons, then gyre should be the strongest warframe by a large margin (since she's the most end-game warframe to obtain, being locked behind the zariman questline) while the starter frames should be the weakest, followed by rhino (as rhino is practically the first warframe you can reasonably obtain, technically you can get the blueprint for gara sooner but her parts are dropped from higher level bounties).

 

Not all frames are well balanced. Some are "press X to win" (with slight variation like more keys required to press) but some are just eating your energy (I still remember Grendel/Pulverize eating 1/2 of Primed flow energy in seconds... DOING NOTHING). There is cases of abilities/passives limitations. For example Caliban's Razor gyre is weak and very energy hungry. You cannot even armor strip using 4th (and 2nd is near useless). Riven giving 1st some strange, status (bleed proc) would make that ability at least decent.

Frames are not tiered by acquisition date (how many planets/missions/stuff you have to do to earn given frame) but by their own strengths & limitations.

 

If they wanted to make riven system for frames then they would have to make it more complex. Otherwise it would create situations where you get overpowered abilities while other abilities are just decent. Per ability riven would be nice. I've mentioned rivens for "not direct power upgrade" as well. Stuff like jump height, gravitation/aim-glide-duration would be neat.

[SDGDen]

41 minutes ago, quxier said:

Not all frames are well balanced. Some are "press X to win" (with slight variation like more keys required to press) but some are just eating your energy (I still remember Grendel/Pulverize eating 1/2 of Primed flow energy in seconds... DOING NOTHING). There is cases of abilities/passives limitations. For example Caliban's Razor gyre is weak and very energy hungry. You cannot even armor strip using 4th (and 2nd is near useless). Riven giving 1st some strange, status (bleed proc) would make that ability at least decent.

Frames are not tiered by acquisition date (how many planets/missions/stuff you have to do to earn given frame) but by their own strengths & limitations.

 

If they wanted to make riven system for frames then they would have to make it more complex. Otherwise it would create situations where you get overpowered abilities while other abilities are just decent. Per ability riven would be nice. I've mentioned rivens for "not direct power upgrade" as well. Stuff like jump height, gravitation/aim-glide-duration would be neat.

in reality they're not all well balanced indeed. the point is: they're *supposed* to be balanced without need for any riven, like there's not any frame that's intentionally weaker than others. 

 

for warframes, the solution to imbalance is buffs and nerfs, not a riven system. 

[vixenpixel]

3 hours ago, LittleLeoniePrime said:

this.

And I'll say that Helminth exists to spice things up with invigorations.

+Archon shards. 

[quxier]

1 hour ago, SDGDen said:

1 hour ago, quxier said:

Not all frames are well balanced. Some are "press X to win" (with slight variation like more keys required to press) but some are just eating your energy (I still remember Grendel/Pulverize eating 1/2 of Primed flow energy in seconds... DOING NOTHING). There is cases of abilities/passives limitations. For example Caliban's Razor gyre is weak and very energy hungry. You cannot even armor strip using 4th (and 2nd is near useless). Riven giving 1st some strange, status (bleed proc) would make that ability at least decent.

Frames are not tiered by acquisition date (how many planets/missions/stuff you have to do to earn given frame) but by their own strengths & limitations.

 

If they wanted to make riven system for frames then they would have to make it more complex. Otherwise it would create situations where you get overpowered abilities while other abilities are just decent. Per ability riven would be nice. I've mentioned rivens for "not direct power upgrade" as well. Stuff like jump height, gravitation/aim-glide-duration would be neat.

Expand  

in reality they're not all well balanced indeed. the point is: they're *supposed* to be balanced without need for any riven, like there's not any frame that's intentionally weaker than others.

Sadly it's almost impossible to balance some abilities. Like you buff X but then you trivialize certain content.

Some frames are intentionally weaker (at least some part of them). Like Styanax' 4th nerf or that stupid jumps when you cast abilities (not only in Styanax). Some of the intentions are not to make them weaker but e.g. perfections. Yareli/Merulina could probably use lots of abilities "just fine" but they insist on making animations. Intentions are not the same but results are (frame being weaker).

1 hour ago, SDGDen said:

for warframes, the solution to imbalance is buffs and nerfs, not a riven system. 

IMHO nerfs/buffs would take too much time. And they could take away some stuffs while adding other (e.g. Hydroid won't use slam tentacles & won't have puddle). Riven system would be fine but some changes in modding system would be much better. Add ability to mod abilities/passive separately, add proper augment, mods/helminth-abilities that synergise with them etc.

Edited October 9, 2023 by quxier

[SDGDen]

31 minutes ago, quxier said:

Sadly it's almost impossible to balance some abilities. Like you buff X but then you trivialize certain content.

Some frames are intentionally weaker (at least some part of them). Like Styanax' 4th nerf or that stupid jumps when you cast abilities (not only in Styanax). Some of the intentions are not to make them weaker but e.g. perfections. Yareli/Merulina could probably use lots of abilities "just fine" but they insist on making animations. Intentions are not the same but results are (frame being weaker).

IMHO nerfs/buffs would take too much time. And they could take away some stuffs while adding other (e.g. Hydroid won't use slam tentacles & won't have puddle). Riven system would be fine but some changes in modding system would be much better. Add ability to mod abilities/passive separately, add proper augment, mods/helminth-abilities that synergise with them etc.

 

part of the reason why some abilities are hard to balance is purely because of how they work and/or how the game works.

 

for example, many of the older "press 4 to nuke rooms" abilities used to be balanced back when it would take 4 energy orb pickups to cast it (or a 180 second wait with energy siphon), but now with practically infinite energy, those abilities are incredibly OP since you can spam them. 

other abilities like mesmer skin are OP simply because of how they work. 18 to 20 seconds of total invulnerability with every cast in a system where getting the energy for that cast is piss-easy is basically just constant invulnerability as long as you use something like rolling guard to prevent yourself from dying during the recast. 

 

buffs, nerfs and reworks help a lot with rebalancing frames, sometimes abilities just need to go though (imo, mesmer skin just needs to be removed or completely reworked to no longer provide full invulnerability) and sometimes, the rest of the system is to blame. 

 

[quxier]

33 minutes ago, SDGDen said:

for example, many of the older "press 4 to nuke rooms" abilities used to be balanced back when it would take 4 energy orb pickups to cast it (or a 180 second wait with energy siphon), but now with practically infinite energy, those abilities are incredibly OP since you can spam them. 

Sure if it were "old thing" but we still have press & forget abilities. Xaku can just run around - just give him armor strip (without Nullies). Similar Yareli/Aquablades but she needs to cast it every so often (Xaku need to cast 1 ability instead of few).

40 minutes ago, SDGDen said:

part of the reason why some abilities are hard to balance is purely because of how they work and/or how the game works.

43 minutes ago, SDGDen said:

buffs, nerfs and reworks help a lot with rebalancing frames, sometimes abilities just need to go though (imo, mesmer skin just needs to be removed or completely reworked to no longer provide full invulnerability) and sometimes, the rest of the system is to blame. 

Well, if you are going to make afk style ability (or something bad) then don't the problem starts in the beginning. From the design of such ability. Constant buff/nerf cycle takes a lot of time. DE doesn't do that often. Even with changes some might be hit or miss.

I don't mean that we don't need buff/nerfs but start with decent ability, make mods affect it (maybe augments) etc.

 

 

[Birdframe_Prime]

A. Forum Bingo!

B. DE had 'random roll' stat mods for Warframes in the early parts of the game. They removed them for a specific reason: It makes balancing Warframe Ablities easier to do. They didn't like having players with the same frame and the same mods equipped having two different results, it made things harder for them. So they stopped doing it.

[quxier]

1 hour ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

B. DE had 'random roll' stat mods for Warframes in the early parts of the game. They removed them for a specific reason: It makes balancing Warframe Ablities easier to do. They didn't like having players with the same frame and the same mods equipped having two different results, it made things harder for them. So they stopped doing it.

What's so hard to test ranged mods? It's not like those "ranged mods" had big stats boost like "+300% to Strength", right?

[SDGDen]

16 hours ago, quxier said:

Sure if it were "old thing" but we still have press & forget abilities. Xaku can just run around - just give him armor strip (without Nullies). Similar Yareli/Aquablades but she needs to cast it every so often (Xaku need to cast 1 ability instead of few).

Well, if you are going to make afk style ability (or something bad) then don't the problem starts in the beginning. From the design of such ability. Constant buff/nerf cycle takes a lot of time. DE doesn't do that often. Even with changes some might be hit or miss.

I don't mean that we don't need buff/nerfs but start with decent ability, make mods affect it (maybe augments) etc.

 

 

part of the issue there is that the warframe community *really* doesn't like nerfs, or having their abilities taken away from them.

i've seen the S#&$storm that happened when saryn got her rework. she's now much more interesting to play but people were so mad you couldn't just press 4 to nuke the map anymore. same with ember's old world on fire. there was no way to get it to be balanced so the devs replaced it, people were pissed, same with wukong's old defy (which is actually coming back as dagath's 3 except dagath has a cooldown on it) 

if you tell the revenant players they're gonna lose their mesmer skin because it's too overpowered, they're going to completely lose it and probably send death threats to the devs because *they can't be immortal anymore* 

[Birdframe_Prime]

23 hours ago, quxier said:

What's so hard to test ranged mods? It's not like those "ranged mods" had big stats boost like "+300% to Strength", right?

It's the policy they brought in when they removed those that's more important to DE; Frames with the same ability, with the same mods, produce the same results.

Testing for random roll mods, keeping things within a variance range? Way harder than you think. At least when it's straight-up 'this weapon deals more damage' they can adjust that value up and down.

How about a theoretical; what are players going to say when Saryn's rivens are permanently at 0.5 while Banshee's are at 1.5 because nobody really uses Banshee, meaning that not a single riven is ever used on Saryn, while Banshee becomes the stat-stick for whatever Helminth ability they want to use?

We already have that crutch in the weapon categories, people complain non-stop about low-dispo rivens for weapons, their favourite weapon getting the disposition lowered, and the high-dispo melee getting used to create ridiculous interactions with frames like Khora, Ash and Atlas.

I think that would be a great idea to add that lovely function to our frames as well... [he said, with great sarcasm and deep sighs of depression]

[quxier]

1 hour ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

On 2023-10-09 at 9:08 PM, quxier said:

What's so hard to test ranged mods? It's not like those "ranged mods" had big stats boost like "+300% to Strength", right?

Testing for random roll mods, keeping things within a variance range? Way harder than you think. At least when it's straight-up 'this weapon deals more damage' they can adjust that value up and down.

But why it's "way" harder? Am I missing something?

With static mods they can just list all combinations and test them (maybe not all). Ranged mods would just add N more combinations. In the end, result would be the same: list of stats to test.

1 hour ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

How about a theoretical; what are players going to say when Saryn's rivens are permanently at 0.5 while Banshee's are at 1.5 because nobody really uses Banshee, meaning that not a single riven is ever used on Saryn, while Banshee becomes the stat-stick for whatever Helminth ability they want to use?

What if "frame riven" affects only frame's original abilities?

 

[Birdframe_Prime]

20 hours ago, quxier said:

But why it's "way" harder? Am I missing something?

Yes? Mostly because I'm reporting, not supposing. These are DE's words on the matter; they removed random roll mods from Warframes because creating, testing and balancing abilities was 'way harder'. They want it to be the case that 'when two players mod the same warframe with the same mods, the result is the same effects'.

These random roll mods weren't even that large, they were only up to around 30% on some stats, so even small changes were apparently too much effort.

20 hours ago, quxier said:

What if "frame riven" affects only frame's original abilities?

Then you're left with the first part; frames like Saryn permanently being stuck at 0.5 Disposition because they're so strong and so commonly used, while frames like Banshee or (pre-rework) Hydroid are permanently stuck at 1.5 Disposition because even with Rivens their usage won't change.

We've seen that with the way Rivens work already. Strong weapons stay strong, with or without the Rivens, while weak guns stay under-used, even when the Riven is strong, and the only difference with Weapons is that Weapons can stat-stick, while you're removing that from the Frame Rivens.

The most you could hope for is for a Riven on Wukong or Saryn or even Excal (because of high usage) to do what it does for some of the strong guns and provide an 'average OK' mix where it replaces one of your optional weak mods because it provides the same effect plus a utility function.

Meanwhile you'll get constant rolls of negative Strength and positive Range/Duration on Loki because that's just more of what he needs.

We know exactly what Rivens are and do now, and the reasons for DE removing their pre-cursors in the first place are still there.

When the reason for removing them is handed down from on high, and hasn't changed, and the results are already known and under-whelming at best... I fail to even become even slightly excited over the possibility.

It's a world of 'meh'.

[quxier]

1 hour ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

23 hours ago, quxier said:

But why it's "way" harder? Am I missing something?

Yes? Mostly because I'm reporting, not supposing.

Ah, sorry, I thought it was your opinion.

2 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

23 hours ago, quxier said:

What if "frame riven" affects only frame's original abilities?

Then you're left with the first part; frames like Saryn permanently being stuck at 0.5 Disposition because they're so strong and so commonly used, while frames like Banshee or (pre-rework) Hydroid are permanently stuck at 1.5 Disposition because even with Rivens their usage won't change.

We've seen that with the way Rivens work already. Strong weapons stay strong, with or without the Rivens, while weak guns stay under-used, even when the Riven is strong, and the only difference with Weapons is that Weapons can stat-stick, while you're removing that from the Frame Rivens.

There will be always better options that are used more often (I guess that's "meta") but frame are, or has potential to be, more versatile.

When I get riven for Masseter it doesn't matter because I have same weapon type (Heavy blade) with innate heat damage in Tenet exec (or other 5 elements). Plus my Exec has shockwave. So no matter what riven I get, it will still be "meh". There is probably ton of such weapons. We have HUNDREDS of Primaries/Secondaries/Melee.

Frames are not used only for power. Sometimes frame could be "fun to use" but has some stupid limitations (e.g old Grendel/Pulverize eating 1/2 of Primed flow energy).

2 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

We know exactly what Rivens are and do now, and the reasons for DE removing their pre-cursors in the first place are still there.

When the reason for removing them is handed down from on high, and hasn't changed, and the results are already known and under-whelming at best... I fail to even become even slightly excited over the possibility.

It's a world of 'meh'.

Invigoration, Rivens, Archons, in the current forms such system are just like you described - push things farther. However they can do more than just raise stats (increasing power directly). Helminth (infusions of abilities) were step in right direction... however there is so much limitations that most of system is not used.

[Birdframe_Prime]

23 minutes ago, quxier said:

Invigoration, Rivens, Archons, in the current forms such system are just like you described - push things farther. However they can do more than just raise stats (increasing power directly). Helminth (infusions of abilities) were step in right direction... however there is so much limitations that most of system is not used.

Invigorations and Archon shards don't have a scale. They don't have variable stats based on the roll.

That's what's holding this idea back.

DE don't want variable stat boosts available as a mod on a Warframe. Pure and simple.

Fixed boons they can test, they can quantify. Random roll ones are too much work, according to them.

[quxier]

2 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

2 hours ago, quxier said:

Invigoration, Rivens, Archons, in the current forms such system are just like you described - push things farther. However they can do more than just raise stats (increasing power directly). Helminth (infusions of abilities) were step in right direction... however there is so much limitations that most of system is not used.

Invigorations and Archon shards don't have a scale. They don't have variable stats based on the roll.

That's what's holding this idea back.

DE don't want variable stat boosts available as a mod on a Warframe. Pure and simple.

Fixed boons they can test, they can quantify. Random roll ones are too much work, according to them.

I get it that "variable stat" is "no no" for DE. I get their reasons.

However even with static stats (e.g. dual mods like +X -Y), such system won't be used too much. Look at Helminth. You can only have 6 Infusions. Want more? Farm another frame. You cannot infuse same ability on different slot (e.g. at 2nd & 3rd ability slot). Infusions cost "a lot" so you cannot just test all frames in single day (unless you have Milliards of resources).

Variable or not variable system won't address issues (even subjective) with certain frames. That's my point. "Variable stats" may be issue that stops DE from implementing it but I think it's just tip of iceberg.

[Probably_Asleep]

On 2023-10-09 at 4:00 AM, quxier said:

+1. I got Riven for Felarx and I wonder if I should keep it (even for rerolling).

Keep it! I have a Felarx Riven as well and I'm quite happy with it: BUILD LINK (Ignore the element choices, I play with those a lot)

I ran the numbers for DPS (that site doesn't account for Incarnon conditions), and the Riven puts it at 677,120.

But if I apply a Faction mod in place of my Riven, then that goes up to 724,281. (An increase of 6.96%)

Done deal, right? Use the Faction mod! BUT: For all other Factions, the DPS goes down to 467,278. (A DECREASE of 30.99%)

So the Riven costs me 7% damage on one Faction, but gains me 31% damage as an all-rounder weapons. (Which is a no-brainer for me)

(The negatie-crit is applying to the 20% original base, so the margins will change if DE fixes that to apply it to the 10% Incarnon base crit)

But still, I think even low Disposition weapons can have useful Rivens. (Which I guess does sort of go against the purpose of Rivens...)