Could you nerf subsumed Thermal Sunder more please?

[(XBOX)CaligulaTwily]

I know the goal is "relic crack now" but like, it's really fun sprinting to the exit with empty hallways and getting zero affinity either because the Titanias are several rooms ahead. 

I'd *deal with it* and not be complaining if it wasn't for the affinity. Either let me kill something, or gimme some affinity instead. End mission rewards is like, 1/3 of what I actually want out of a mission. 

[Pizzarugi]

While I agree these trivializing strategies should be nerfed, but if you're after affinity, why not just visit Hydron or (E)SO until whatever you're ranking up is fully mastered?

[Traumtulpe]

There's still Null Star if Thermal Sunder gets any worse. Do you propose we nerf every AoE ability in the game until you can kill low level enemies at your leisure with a melee weapon?

[KitMeHarder]

10 minutes ago, (XBOX)CaligulaTwily said:

or gimme some affinity instead.

Use Vazarin and/or a PoE Fosfor. You could also use a speed frame too.

11 minutes ago, (XBOX)CaligulaTwily said:

Either let me kill something

Go to Steel Path fissures if you want to see enemies IMO. 

 

Not tot dis on your idea of fun. But killing level 25 enemies is not really my idea of fun, especially if you want me to do it slowly. Like you said, I want my traces and prime part and to do again quickly (I don't care about 1 Steel Essence). At least turning it into a speed run offers some kind of enjoyment (I do not use Titania though).

[taiiat]

er, the XP you get out of a couple Minute long Relic Mission is basically nothing, you're really not missing out on anything there.

alternatively, you could use Flares i guess. (increases XP Range from 50m to 200m)

[Pizzarugi]

5 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

There's still Null Star if Thermal Sunder gets any worse. Do you propose we nerf every AoE ability in the game until you can kill low level enemies at your leisure with a melee weapon?

Unironically yes.

It's silly to think that abilities like Spore and Regulators are acceptable when you can lazily delete entire rooms with them for next to no effort.

[Numerounius]

Just take some Fosfor if you want the affinity but the others are too fast. Bonus points if you know what that is before looking it up.

Trying to do affinity leveling while relic cracking isn't going to net you the needed XP anyways even if you were to stay within range during a non-endless mission, I only use it to from like late 29. And for endless missions? That is a good source of affinity gain since you should always be in affinity range if you want to crack relics at the same time.

I've said this before, if you continually nerf the best thing you end up with a destroyed game that has no sense of balance.

[KitMeHarder]

11 minutes ago, Pizzarugi said:

Unironically yes.

It's silly to think that abilities like Spore and Regulators are acceptable when you can lazily delete entire rooms with them for next to no effort.

Then save all of us and yourself the headache and just go play a different game. Or at least enjoy the parts of the game you like and quietly accept that what you're asking for would completely kill the game.

I'm not overly for discouraging people from playing, but if you're this far gone, you're honestly better off playing a game that fits your taste. It's best to get over your Stockholm-syndrome or whatever is keeping you here now, than to be miserable and subsequently make everyone around you miserable.

[Pizzarugi]

8 minutes ago, XHADgaming said:

I've said this before, if you continually nerf the best thing you end up with a destroyed game that has no sense of balance.

Yeah, that's not how that works. This game is powercrept to hell and back, because DE is too scared to nerf anything anymore. In what part of the game do we need incarnon weapons which can literally deal millions of DPS? What content needs you to be able to delete entire rooms of enemies in a second? No, it's not for endurance runs because DE hasn't balanced anything around it nor added incentives which would encourage it.

Just now, KitMeHarder said:

Then save all of us and yourself the headache and just go play a different game. Or at least enjoy the parts of the game you like and quietly accept that what you're asking for would completely kill the game.

Please enlighten me how balancing a powercrept game would kill it? Is it because DE let it stay for too long and now everyone is a press-4-to-win brainlet who would throw the hissiest of fits if their toys got nerfed?

[taiiat]

12 minutes ago, Pizzarugi said:

Yeah, that's not how that works. This game is powercrept to hell and back, because DE is too scared to nerf anything anymore.

this game was designed this way from the start. there's more Zeroes on the end of things than anyone initially planned for, but the game has always been shaped around individual Enemies not being particularly meaningful once you have grinded for Gear.

was that way in 2013, still in now in 2023.

[Pizzarugi]

5 minutes ago, taiiat said:

this game was designed this way from the start. there's more Zeroes on the end of things than anyone initially planned for, but the game has always been shaped around individual Enemies not being particularly meaningful once you have grinded for Gear.

was that way in 2013, still in now in 2023.

I disagree. The difference between Warframe then and now is like night and day. The game was a lot more tactical back then. Every weapon had an ammo economy and you were incentivized to score headshots to ensure you don't run out. AoE weapons had poor damage as they were designed to hit multiple enemies at once. Energy economy used to be a thing and everyone loved having a Trinity on the team. Everything you did in a mission mattered and running out of ammo and/or energy had consequences.

Now? Everyone's a nuclear bomb on legs. Ammo and energy is virtually inconsequential. And now we have weapons that can dole out millions of DPS, but there's nothing in the game that needs it.

Edited October 28, 2023 by Pizzarugi

[SDGDen]

13 minutes ago, XHADgaming said:

I've said this before, if you continually nerf the best thing you end up with a destroyed game that has no sense of balance.

 

1 minute ago, Pizzarugi said:

Yeah, that's not how that works. This game is powercrept to hell and back, because DE is too scared to nerf anything anymore. In what part of the game do we need incarnon weapons which can literally deal millions of DPS? What content needs you to be able to delete entire rooms of enemies in a second? No, it's not for endurance runs because DE hasn't balanced anything around it nor added incentives which would encourage it.

 

alright so, time for a tiny lesson in game design and "power fantasy":

power fantasy is a genre in games that is generally marked by how it makes the player *feel*, the goal is to make the player feel powerful and cool. Frequently, this is mistaken for "the player should be statistically and functionally strong". This isn't the case, playstyle, visuals and audio all change how you experience something. 

when it comes to functional strength in power fantasy games, that strength has to come in context. player strength isn't an absolute value, it's a relative one compared to the enemies they're fighting, and here's a key thing: even in power fantasy games, balance is needed because there is a sweet spot in that "power difference". if you go too far beyond it, it stops feeling like "the player is strong" and more "the enemies are weak or inconsequential". you want the enemies to still provide a challenge so the player can use the "power" you've given them to overcome it.

as a result, if there is no challenge, that feeling of power does not come to fruition. 

now that we've established balance is needed even in a power fantasy, how does one balance?

 

in a very simple game where *everything* has to be balanced against eachother (such as a PVP game), balance is achieved by setting a single point of reference, lets say we're looking at the frames (which are all supposed to be balanced against eachother). we start by choosing the warframe that we feel encompasses the right amount of challenge while also feeling very powerful. we then choose a margin. lets say 25%. any warframe that is more than 25% better than this hypothetical "perfectly balanced warframe" should receive nerfs that retain it's power fantasy but pull it back down into that 25% margin. simultaneously any warframe that's 25% or more worse than this hypothetical "perfectly balanced warframe" should be buffed or reworked to get within that 25% margin.

when it comes to weapons, it's a bit more difficult because for example the starter weapons are not supposed to be equal in power to weapons you get near the end of the game. so what you do here is you chop your game and it's weapon rewards up into "tiers", and you balance each tier. the karak, braton and hind should all be balanced against eachother since they're in the same tier, but they're not balanced against the kuva karak since that's a much higher tier. within each tier, you do the same thing that's done with warframes.

the use rate of items is a pretty good measuring stick for which items are overperforming, players naturally flock to items that trivialize the game (just look at the popularity of wukong and revenant) compared to items that are weaker. so by saying "buff the underperforming stuff and nerf the overperforming stuff" you will most often end up buffing items that are underused and nerfing items that are overused. 

 

DE used to approach the game like this, but due to the way that DE interacts with the community, the community has gotten more and more overzealous about nerfs. to the point where i'd call them allergic to the word nerf. some players here hiss and shrink away when presented with the term like a vampire presented with a cross. the overzealous reactions of the community when it comes to nerfs have led to DE avoiding nerfs as much as possible. this is also why frames nowadays frequently release underpowered. it's a lot safer for DE to release a frame in a relatively weak state and then buff it later rather than risking it being too strong and having to nerf it. at one point it was practically "normal" for a frame to receive a tune-up soon after release (yareli and xaku for example) 

[taiiat]

16 minutes ago, Pizzarugi said:

I disagree. The difference between Warframe then and now is like night and day. The game was a lot more tactical back then. Every weapon had an ammo economy and you were incentivized to score headshots to ensure you don't run out. AoE weapons had poor damage as they were designed to hit multiple enemies at once. Energy economy used to be a thing and everyone loved having a Trinity on the team. Everything you did in a mission mattered and running out of ammo and/or energy had consequences.

Now? Everyone's a nuclear bomb on legs. Ammo and energy is virtually inconsequential. And now we have weapons that can dole out millions of DPS, but there's nothing in the game that needs it.

and yet we were still idling in Defenses and Survivals or w/e and Killing the Enemies with AoE or otherwise pretty low effort means for Hours on end.

the ratio or availability of that has gone up, but the game has always offered this since U6.

[Pizzarugi]

24 minutes ago, SDGDen said:

 

 

alright so, time for a tiny lesson in game design and "power fantasy":

power fantasy is a genre in games that is generally marked by how it makes the player *feel*, the goal is to make the player feel powerful and cool. Frequently, this is mistaken for "the player should be statistically and functionally strong". This isn't the case, playstyle, visuals and audio all change how you experience something. 

when it comes to functional strength in power fantasy games, that strength has to come in context. player strength isn't an absolute value, it's a relative one compared to the enemies they're fighting, and here's a key thing: even in power fantasy games, balance is needed because there is a sweet spot in that "power difference". if you go too far beyond it, it stops feeling like "the player is strong" and more "the enemies are weak or inconsequential". you want the enemies to still provide a challenge so the player can use the "power" you've given them to overcome it.

as a result, if there is no challenge, that feeling of power does not come to fruition. 

now that we've established balance is needed even in a power fantasy, how does one balance?

 

in a very simple game where *everything* has to be balanced against eachother (such as a PVP game), balance is achieved by setting a single point of reference, lets say we're looking at the frames (which are all supposed to be balanced against eachother). we start by choosing the warframe that we feel encompasses the right amount of challenge while also feeling very powerful. we then choose a margin. lets say 25%. any warframe that is more than 25% better than this hypothetical "perfectly balanced warframe" should receive nerfs that retain it's power fantasy but pull it back down into that 25% margin. simultaneously any warframe that's 25% or more worse than this hypothetical "perfectly balanced warframe" should be buffed or reworked to get within that 25% margin.

when it comes to weapons, it's a bit more difficult because for example the starter weapons are not supposed to be equal in power to weapons you get near the end of the game. so what you do here is you chop your game and it's weapon rewards up into "tiers", and you balance each tier. the karak, braton and hind should all be balanced against eachother since they're in the same tier, but they're not balanced against the kuva karak since that's a much higher tier. within each tier, you do the same thing that's done with warframes.

the use rate of items is a pretty good measuring stick for which items are overperforming, players naturally flock to items that trivialize the game (just look at the popularity of wukong and revenant) compared to items that are weaker. so by saying "buff the underperforming stuff and nerf the overperforming stuff" you will most often end up buffing items that are underused and nerfing items that are overused. 

 

DE used to approach the game like this, but due to the way that DE interacts with the community, the community has gotten more and more overzealous about nerfs. to the point where i'd call them allergic to the word nerf. some players here hiss and shrink away when presented with the term like a vampire presented with a cross. the overzealous reactions of the community when it comes to nerfs have led to DE avoiding nerfs as much as possible. this is also why frames nowadays frequently release underpowered. it's a lot safer for DE to release a frame in a relatively weak state and then buff it later rather than risking it being too strong and having to nerf it. at one point it was practically "normal" for a frame to receive a tune-up soon after release (yareli and xaku for example) 

Claiming the game is a power fantasy isn't an excuse to make you so overpowered that literally nothing can beat you. Any Superman game is literally an example of power fantasy since virtually nothing except equally OP villains and kryptonite can beat him a fair fight, and even those games added ways to keep it challenging. Another example that may be on equivalent to Warframe is the Earth Defense Force series where you employ a level of firepower that is physically impossible for any human being to handle, and it still has ways to keep the game challenging.

There's no justification for why DE can't add mechanics in the game to keep it challenging beyond the fact they've completely lost control on their ability to balance it without the community throwing a collective fit.

Edited October 28, 2023 by Pizzarugi

[Pizzarugi]

3 minutes ago, taiiat said:

and yet we were still idling in Defenses and Survivals or w/e and Killing the Enemies with AoE or otherwise pretty low effort means for Hours on end.

the ratio or availability of that has gone up, but the game has always offered this since U6.

The difference is in U6, you ran the risk of failing the mission, because you wasted your energy spamming abilities or shooting your gun and not hitting weakpoints/missing in general. Now you can just take Saryn and use spores once in a while or play Mesa while never moving from on top of the defense on permanent Regulators swerving your camera. No support needed, you could even Helminth the Dispensary ability or deploy a Protea specter if you felt so inclined.

[(PSN)rexis12]

Nah I want them to keep this, and players to suffer more until.they actually change more to the game.

Because everytime I hear:

"I want this to nerfed"

It's because it's doing exactly what it was designed to do in a game where the ability was designed to do so.

By all means, nerf an ability that other players might use for normal purposes because others use it to play faster on a game mode where all that matters is how much and how fast you kill.

It would be like nerfing the Rubico because they're doing too well in Eidolon hunts, but hey I'm sure THATS different right?

[KitMeHarder]

On 2023-10-28 at 1:45 PM, Pizzarugi said:

This game is powercrept to hell and back

Since when? 2013? Feel free to correct me where I'm wrong old timer, but Excalibur had his old Radial Javelin since the beginning. Mag had her old Polarize, Ash had his old Blade Storm, Saryn was added in 2013 and had her old Miasma, corrupted mods were added in 2013, etc... the list goes on and on and on.

On 2023-10-28 at 1:45 PM, Pizzarugi said:

In what part of the game do we need incarnon weapons which can literally deal millions of DPS? What content needs you to be able to delete entire rooms of enemies in a second?

Since when has fun required the word "need" to be acceptable? I enjoy it because it's fun, I enjoy DE's current take on power fantasy, I enjoy the progression of my frames and gear always getting better in one way or another, etc...

On 2023-10-28 at 1:45 PM, Pizzarugi said:

Please enlighten me how balancing a powercrept game would kill it?

When you "unironically" agreed/stated that (one of) the fastest way to clear a normal level 15-50 fissure should be to melee every enemy near one-at-a-time. That is when you stated the game should die for your personal enjoyment. People come here largely for the power fantasy, and you want to kill it off probably more than any other person I've spoken to based on what you've written.

On 2023-10-28 at 1:45 PM, Pizzarugi said:

now everyone is a press-4-to-win brainlet who would throw the hissiest of fits if their toys got nerfed?

"when you can lazily delete entire rooms with them for next to no effort."

Hate to break it to you, but holding "E" elicits no more "effort" than your misconstrued perception of how 97% of nuke builds work. Nothing in this game nor any game in this type of Genre takes any type of "effort". They can only be fun and engaging.

Thus why I suggested you enjoy the parts you like in silence, or go find a game/genre you actually like.

On 2023-10-28 at 2:02 PM, Pizzarugi said:

Energy economy used to be a thing and everyone loved having a Trinity on the team.

So nuking is fine so long as some poor forsaken assh*le on Trinity has a macro spamming her 2? All the while they watch Youtube on the other monitor and you have all the fun? It's a PvE game, we don't need support slaves.

On 2023-10-28 at 2:27 PM, Pizzarugi said:

The difference is in U6, you ran the risk of failing the mission

Are you serious? You're holding on to an update from January 29th 2013, when the game was still in closed beta? 

I understand you paid for the founders pack, but you can't possibly have Stockholm-syndrome/Sunk-Cost fallacy that bad that you're holding out hope that the game will revert to how it was almost 11 years ago, before it was even officially released.

Edited October 31, 2023 by KitMeHarder

[taiiat]

23 minutes ago, Pizzarugi said:

The difference is in U6, you ran the risk of failing the mission, because you wasted your energy spamming abilities or shooting your gun and not hitting weakpoints/missing in general. Now you can just take Saryn and use spores once in a while or play Mesa while never moving from on top of the defense on permanent Regulators swerving your camera. No support needed, you could even Helminth the Dispensary ability or deploy a Protea specter if you felt so inclined.

less reliance on having particular Abilities to generate Energy, but we also use Abilities as we please, which is far better for the game anyways. when we avoided using Abilities whenever possible, the game was just a worse game. part of the point of this game that makes it different from other games is the Warframes, except when we're not actually using them and just Walking around shooting a Gun. if we're just doing that then we aren't playing Warframe anymore.

and one can see that the design of the game agrees more and more with this. that Warframes don't exist if we aren't using them.
more lenient Energy in later times makes the game a better game. any consequences that come along with it are worth the tradeoff.

[Pizzarugi]

28 minutes ago, KitMeHarder said:

Since when? 2013? Feel free to correct me where I'm wrong old timer, but Excalibur had his old Radial Javelin since the beginning. Mag had her old Polarize, Ash had his old Blade Storm, Saryn was added in 2013 and had her old Miasma, corrupted mods were added in 2013, etc... the list goes on and on and on.

Almost all of these abilities were weaker back then as a base, additionally we didn't have things like corrupted mods so your power scaling was a huge deal lower than today. Saryn got reworked twice historically throughout the game's lifespan, and both times, each new version was stronger than the last.

28 minutes ago, KitMeHarder said:

Since when has fun required the word "need" to be acceptable? I enjoy it because it's fun, I enjoy DE's current take on power fantasy, I enjoy the progression of my frames and gear always getting better in one way or another, etc...

You can have progression without jumping from hundreds of thousands of DPS to millions.

28 minutes ago, KitMeHarder said:

When you "unironically" agreed/stated that (one of) the fastest way to clear a normal level 15-50 fissure should be to melee every enemy near one-at-a-time. That is when you stated the game should die for your personal enjoyment. People come here largely for the power fantasy, and you want to kill it off probably more than any other person I've spoken to based on what you've written.

Are you serious? Literally what melee weapon can destroy an entire room full of enemies instantly?

I said we should nerf AoEs and nukes in general, nowhere did I suggest we downgrade to meleeing one enemy at a time. That's you putting words in my mouth.

28 minutes ago, KitMeHarder said:

"when you can lazily delete entire rooms with them for next to no effort."

Hate to break it to you, but holding "E" elicits no more "effort" than your misconstrued perception of how 97% of nuke builds work. Nothing in this game nor any game in this type of Genre takes any type of "effort". They can only be fun and engaging.

Thus why suggested you enjoy the parts you like in silence, or go find a game/genre you actually like.

How is casting spores on an enemy, killing them so it then spreads to an entire room, and then AFK while teammates propagate them for you considered engaging? That's on par with Ember's old World On Fire ability that DE reworked for literally that reason.

28 minutes ago, KitMeHarder said:

So nuking is fine so long as some poor forsaken assh*le on Trinity has a macro spamming her 2, while they watch Youtube on the other monitor and you have all the fun? It's a PoE game, we don't need support slaves.

No. Nuking didn't used to be a thing back then, due to limitations I explained earlier in this post. Abilities were weaker, both as a base and the scaling due to lack of things like corrupted mods. It wasn't possible for Ash to just spam 4 back then and hard carry the team, same with Saryn's Miasma. Also, not everyone played them, and those players who didn't still appreciated an energy support teammate to maintain Iron Skin, Snowglobe, or whatever else.

28 minutes ago, KitMeHarder said:

Are you serious? You're holding on to an update from January 29th 2013, when the game was still in closed beta? 

I understand you paid for the founders pack, but you can't possibly have Stockholm-syndrome that bad that you're holding out hope that the game will revert to how it was almost 11 years ago, before it was even officially released.

No? Taiiat brought up U6 first so I responded thus.

My main point is that the game lost all semblance of challenge which is something it used to have. And it's not like I'm pulling that statement out of my ass either. How many quests have we been seeing nowadays where DE is forcing you out of your warframe? Is it because they know they can't possibly balance it around your god-killing arsenal, so it's easier to make you play Operator, Kahl, Veso, or that dude in Warframe 1999? This trend is only going to keep happening.

Edited October 28, 2023 by Pizzarugi

[iKLuTcHiTz]

smh people like you are the reason I play solo and quickly started hating the game. The first few weeks of the game were fun, thought this community was amazing but I began to encounter more people like you as I got stronger. I'm noticing this isnt a game for skilled op players cuz theres always people like you that complain and usually get their way by the devs. Its sad the amount of nerfs I read happened in the past cuz of people like this complaining about them getting "their kills stolen". I enjoyed this game a lot but if the devs keep wanting to cater to people like you instead of coming up with a sort of "ranked and casual" mode so people like you can play as slow as you want than I'm just gonna stop playing this game before I get any further in.

[iKLuTcHiTz]

1 hour ago, (PSN)rexis12 said:

Nah I want them to keep this, and players to suffer more until.they actually change more to the game.

Because everytime I hear:

"I want this to nerfed"

It's because it's doing exactly what it was designed to do in a game where the ability was designed to do so.

By all means, nerf an ability that other players might use for normal purposes because others use it to play faster on a game mode where all that matters is how much and how fast you kill.

It would be like nerfing the Rubico because they're doing too well in Eidolon hunts, but hey I'm sure THATS different right?

its funny that these type of players are always telling me "then go on recruit chat" when they dont even wanna do the same themselves. The irony that they complain about players playing fast and I complain about players playing slow. Only difference since getting this strong is I've been playing solo, yes even relics cuz I'm tired of encountering entitled players like this.

Let me tell you man, the first 2 months of playing this game was great, I loved the community but I'm starting to get annoyed with it now. Everyone was nice and helpful and I didnt see this side of the community. Its almost its a game not meant to be played by skilled players. You should only play it for a month and move on to something else, is what I'm starting to feel cuz yes I'm noticing the devs dont respect the time some late game players put in.

I forma'd weapons many times just to take on certain bosses only to find out next update they "fixed" something. I farmed a ton of mods, prime sets to get plat for more potatoes, slots etc. If all my time and effort grinding is gonna be disrespected why even bother playing? The irony is that when these people need someone op to help them with something they always ask in chat like if they're not the ones begging for stuff to get nerfed. I've helped people defeat eidolons, exploiter orb, liches, sisters etc and they never complained at that point.

 

The devs just need to come up with some type of ranked match making like fighting games to please everyone. Those that want to take their time sight seeing and those that are serious about grinding relics with efficiency.

[KitMeHarder]

58 minutes ago, Pizzarugi said:

Almost all of these abilities were weaker back then as a base

At what point? Because I have watched the videos of Excal on Vivergate/Draco, Saryn spamming her release day Miasma when it did way more (corrosive) damage, I've heard about when Mag literally instakilled anything with a shield, when all Ash had to do was press one button (that went through walls and force proc'd slash), when Molecular Prime was used for nuking, etc...

58 minutes ago, Pizzarugi said:

additionally we didn't have things like corrupted mods so your power scaling was a huge deal lower than today.

You literally quoted were I already mentioned them and I already stated that they were added in 2013 (same year WF officially started).

58 minutes ago, Pizzarugi said:

Literally what melee weapon can destroy an entire room full of enemies instantly?

I said we should nerf AoEs and nukes in general, nowhere did I suggest we downgrade to meleeing one enemy at a time. That's you putting words in my mouth.

They can't, thus why when you "unironically" agreed to the hyperbolic example someone made, I called you out. I did not "put words in your mouth".

https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1370364-could-you-nerf-subsumed-thermal-sunder-more-please/?do=findComment&comment=12894621

Traumtulpe - "There's still Null Star if Thermal Sunder gets any worse. Do you propose we nerf every AoE ability in the game until you can kill low level enemies at your leisure with a melee weapon?"

You - "Unironically yes. It's silly to think that abilities like Spore and Regulators are acceptable when you can lazily delete entire rooms with them for next to no effort."

58 minutes ago, Pizzarugi said:

You can have progression without jumping

Based on the above, we obviously have wildly different definitions. 

While there are very rare cases where nerfs are warranted or power/braindead levels that shouldn't be exceeded in even a power fantasy, we are obviously nowhere even close to one another in our definitions, based off everything you've written on this thread.

58 minutes ago, Pizzarugi said:

How is casting spores on an enemy, killing them so it then spreads to an entire room, and then AFK while teammates propagate them for you considered engaging?

I do not have the time to explain how most nukes can be considered engaging in this game. Not to mention, I think there's a good chance you're already set in your opinion and/or potentially have little to no experience first-hand with using nuke frames at levels 80+. But if I'm wrong and you honestly want me to explain how at least Saryn is engaging, I will.

On the flipside, let me ask you this. How is equipping a Kronen Prime, pressing E, W, and occasionally wiggling your mouse supposed to require "effort"?

58 minutes ago, Pizzarugi said:

Also, not everyone played them, and those players who didn't still appreciated an energy support teammate to maintain Iron Skin, Snowglobe, or whatever else.

I think there's a good chance you're wrong for a few reasons. One of which is you missed the part in my post about/seem to underestimate how long since Corrupted mods have been in the game. Warframe officially released in March 2013, corrupted mods (fleeting, overextended) were added in October 2013... not even 7 months later.

Also, I guess you're doubling down on the notion that one person in the squad should be exiled to the role of nothing more than an energy pad, so that the other 3 can have any sort of an enjoyable mission? (Btw, pads are so old the wiki doesn't even mention when they were added.)

58 minutes ago, Pizzarugi said:

No? Taiiat brought up U6 first so I responded thus.

My main point is that the game lost all semblance of challenge which is something it used to have.

My bad. Mind saying the point at which you think it happened then?

58 minutes ago, Pizzarugi said:

And it's not like I'm pulling that statement out of my ass either. How many quests have we been seeing nowadays where DE is forcing you out of your warframe?

Why? To spice things up. You can only play the same thing, so many times, without the occasional change of pace. And the quest =/= gameplay, they're there to tell a story with a set pacing, nothing more. Or should the main loop of WF be us as Golden Maws slithering through bones?

And hate to break it to you again, but without your cherry picking of near quest exclusive modes, I am no less powerful in a Railjack, nor a Necramech, nor an Archwing than I am in a Warframe. And operators are just a different type of massive power, which honestly would be frame levels of nuking too if not for DE massively fixating on Eidolons remaining even slightly relevant. (They literally just nerfed a companion mod because of this, among everything in the past.)

[(PSN)Pablogamer585]

Well, okay, if they nerf subsumed Thermal Sunder more, I'll just bring my fully archon sharded Gauss and do the exact same thing, but I don't see why are you focusing on getting affinity on a non-endless mode fissure instead of going to something like ESO or an endless mode like defence / interception.

[Raarsi]

At this point, I wonder if it'd be easier just to nerf Razorflies and promote Titania to use the rest of her kit.

I mean, if it worked for Wukong.... /sarcasm

[(PSN)rexis12]

3 hours ago, KitMeHarder said:

On the flipside, let me ask you this. How is equipping a Kronen Prime, pressing E, W, and occasionally wiggling your mouse supposed to require "effort"?

I remember building a max range Iron Staff and just semi afk with a finger tapping, now I can just hold it!