Gotva Prime: Hammer Shot or 3rd Elemental mod?

[JadeKaiser]

Baro has come bringing Gotva Prime back for those of us who missed Tennocon. With it's mechanic for flat red crits after status, Gotva Prime seems to be the product of DE sitting down and asking one another: "How can we make a gun that will actually want to run Hammer Shot?" It's in the unique position of wanting to maximize status chance and crit damage, while not caring about crit chance. Even so however, we still have only 8 mod slots on a weapon, and the question arises: is the 60% crit damage and an extra 20% status vs a 60/60 elemental worth the loss of the elemental damage? On any other gun the answer is obviously no even if every shot crits, because adding 60% to the base number being multiplied is better than adding another 60% of the base multiplier if you're already running Vital Sense, but this one casts it into doubt.

Should we be looking at dropping Hunter Munitions, instead? HM offers a whole extra source of status procs to help fuel the red crit machine, but with the crits being more focused on a few that hit really hard instead of a steady stream compared to a more standard crit AR, its 30% proc chance might be a tad too inconsistent. Moreover, swapping it out for a third elemental while also keeping Hammer Shot lets us bring our status chance up to 97.2%, as opposed to 75.6% with just three elementals or 81% with 2 elementals and HS. That's a source of greater consistency all its own.

The third option to drop would be Vigilante Armaments, but that's just no. The gun comes with a slot pre-forma'd for it, since it's the only good dash polarity mod to go there, and when stacking DPS multipliers you always want to add to the lower one. Maybe if it was a single shot weapon, but on an AR, 60% multishot is flat better than 60% crit damage any day. Even more so when the crits are less consistent.

Personally, I'm leaning towards dropping Hunter Munitions so I can run HS and 3 elemental 60/60s all together, but I'm not sure and I would like to see what other people think.

Edited November 4, 2023 by JadeKaiser

[Corvid]

This is the build I've put on the copies I got for my crewmates, feel free to rip it to shreds.

Spoiler

 

[JadeKaiser]

9 minutes ago, Corvid said:

This is the build I've put on the copies I got for my crewmates, feel free to rip it to shreds.

  Hide contents

 

That's basically what I've got except Hammer Shot instead of Rifle Aptitude. 60% crit damage for those red crits is worth more than an extra 10% status chance.

I'm also running Corrosive rather than Viral for now, but that's subject to change.

Edited November 4, 2023 by JadeKaiser

[JadeKaiser]

Really, you should just never run the basic Status-Chance-only mods. On anything. They're always, with no exception, not good enough to fill the mod slot. Hammer Shot gives only 10% less status, and also gives 60% crit damage, and yet this is the first weapon in the game where it has ever been worth using. And even that is still up for debate, as is half the purpose of this thread.

[taiiat]

not using Galvanized Aptitude is a crime, thank you for coming to my TEDtalk.

and i'd prefer having Hunter Munitions since it means more Status Effects for Gundition Overload.

 

8 minutes ago, JadeKaiser said:

Really, you should just never run the basic Status-Chance-only mods. On anything. They're always, with no exception, not good enough to fill the mod slot.

there's exceptions, they just aren't for normal Modding/playstyles.

Edited November 4, 2023 by taiiat

[Tiltskillet]

13 minutes ago, taiiat said:

there's exceptions, they just aren't for normal Modding/playstyles.

Yeah, I use them on a few pure primer weapons.  They make these slightly better at their job, and are a little cheaper.  Still, I wish there was a larger gap between the ranged pure status mods and their Galvanized upgrades.

[Voltage]

This is how I have Gotva Prime modded. I often don't use Hammer Shot because of the opportunity cost of slots. If we had an Amalgam Hammer Shot with another bonus, or an "intermediate" version with 5 ranks and higher stats, I would just replace Vital Sense with it. Most of my weapons are modded for general usage. I'm not really an avid user of Gotva Prime.

Edited November 4, 2023 by Voltage

[Tiltskillet]

I'll just copy some testing I did a long time ago in case it's helpful:

I did a crude damage test against 6 x L185 SP CHG Eximus, all headshots. Holding trigger until death, not waiting for bleeds. Numbers are ammo leftover starting from full, so higher is better.

Basic build: GChamber, GAptitude, Crit Delay, HM, 60/60 Viral, Zoom mod which would be Primed Shred, Vile Accel, or a bane normally. Also had Deadhead instead of Merciless. Since I was shooting only 1 target at a time, Merciless would have sucked too.

1. Hammer Shot: 403, 428, 389. Avg 407

2. Vital Sense: 504, 550, 607. Avg 554

3. Vital Sense + PCR instead of Rime: 528, 566, 618. Avg 571

So based on that very preliminary test, HM builds shouldn't trade out Vital Sense for Hammer shot. The difference going to PCR is basically insignificant AFAIC, so probably even less worth the build inflexibility than normal.

Again though, just a first stab at this.

Obviously that testing all assumed HM.  Based on a lot of non-Gotva testing, I'd say HM would be very hard to give up on a pure puncture weapon, except, obviously, in cases where things are dying too fast for it to matter.  

I see some things in the Gotva test setup I'd do differently now, although I think part of it was I was limited by capacity.

My "final" build for it is the same as Voltage's, but with Rime Rounds instead of PCR.  If I was using the weapon more, I'd really want to get Primed Shred on there.  I love RoF on it, and the innate PT it has is so low as to often be pointless.   I'm not sure if I'd replace the Bane or Gaptitude.  Dropping Gaptitude probably sounds sacrilegious, but it's not crazy on setups where I can't count on additional status effects from other sources.  Granted, these are easier than ever to get  now.

I liked the weapon well enough.  But when want my assault rifle fix, I'm reaching for a few other options I like even more, very often Aeolak.  So after my initial interest in figuring out its gimmick before DE gave up the info, I really haven't touched it.

edit: have a couple of videos about this from people a lot more competent than me.  Their builds are pretty different from each other though.

https://youtu.be/vDTwmK4qZmM?si=wdqYHz6TzRpqc3Xo

https://youtu.be/YOkSoIySZ1s?si=h4rOm9usbSx0e5Mb

 

 

 

Edited November 4, 2023 by Tiltskillet

[JadeKaiser]

2 hours ago, Voltage said:

This is how I have Gotva Prime modded. I often don't use Hammer Shot because of the opportunity cost of slots. If we had an Amalgam Hammer Shot with another bonus, or an "intermediate" version with 5 ranks and higher stats, I would just replace Vital Sense with it. Most of my weapons are modded for general usage. I'm not really an avid user of Gotva Prime.

Well yeah, definitely don't drop Vital Sense for Hammer Shot ever. I wasn't really considering Galvanized mods, mostly because I've not played much for the last few years until very recently, so I had some vitus saved up from before they were added but I didn't really know about them beyond "galvanized mods exist." Galvanized Aptitude would probably replace HS by default once I get it ranked, now that I've got it. Not everybody has access to those sorts of endgame mods though, Galvanized mods and primed Bane mods and the like, and your build look simultaneously very endgame-optimized and completely unoptimized for this gun in particular, as opposed to a generic hybrid AR.

Though, maybe going for a more standard hybrid build instead of leaning on its mechanic is better, overall. Status in general seems to be suffering a bit at higher levels, what with everybody and their mother being given immunity one way or another. Even just your regular eximus units have it via overguard.

Edited November 4, 2023 by JadeKaiser

[Voltage]

20 minutes ago, JadeKaiser said:

Well yeah, definitely don't drop Vital Sense for Hammer Shot ever. I wasn't really considering Galvanized mods, mostly because I've not played much for the last few years until very recently, so I had some vitus saved up from before they were added but I didn't really know about them beyond "galvanized mods exist." Galvanized Aptitude would probably replace HS by default once I get it ranked, now that I've got it. Not everybody has access to those sorts of endgame mods though, Galvanized mods and primed Bane mods and the like, and your build look simultaneously very endgame-optimized and completely unoptimized for this gun in particular, as opposed to a generic hybrid AR.

Though, maybe going for a more standard hybrid build instead of leaning on its mechanic is better, overall. Status in general seems to be suffering a bit at higher levels, what with everybody and their mother being given immunity one way or another. Even just your regular eximus units have it via overguard.

Given you criticized an earlier comment for their choice of Rifle Aptitude, I assumed you were looking for optimized modding (in the context of general usage).

In this case, just slot whatever you want and this thread is pretty much pointless.

[JadeKaiser]

13 minutes ago, Voltage said:

Given you criticized an earlier comment for their choice of Rifle Aptitude, I assumed you were looking for optimized modding (in the context of general usage).

In this case, just slot whatever you want and this thread is pretty much pointless.

I'm really not seeing how anything I said could imply that I'm not talking about optimized modding. If that's somehow what you got from my post, then you need to work on your reading comprehension. Either that, or you're the kind of elitist who thinks that merely trying to account and optimize for levels of equipment availability that aren't "you have literally everything in the game already" is pointless. If it's the latter, then don't let the door hit you on the way out.

We can certainly talk about those kinds of builds, but don't go trying to tell people that we shouldn't also talk about builds for those who "merely" have the standard modset and some, but not all Primed/Galvanized/Archon/etc. mods maxed.

Edited November 4, 2023 by JadeKaiser

[Voltage]

2 minutes ago, JadeKaiser said:

I'm really not seeing how anything I said could imply that I'm not talking about optimized modding. If that's somehow what you got from my post, then you need to work on your reading comprehension. Either that, or you're the kind of elitist who thinks that merely trying to account for levels of equipment availability that aren't "you have literally everything in the game already" is pointless. If it's the latter, then don't let the door hit you on the way out.

Holy man. I didn't expect to see Primed Reach in a Gotva Prime discussion.

Equipment availability is of course important, and I did consider it. If you don't have Primed Mods or Galvanized Mods, you simply swap to non-Primed or equivalent mods. Do you mind sharing your build? Lots of context is missing here.

General purpose builds for weapons in Warframe have become highly homogenized. What changes up the mods is when you decide "I want to mod this weapon for just Demolishers" or "I want to use this weapon while only using Chroma". In those cases, you of course shift your mindset to the optimization of one particular use case. For general usage, you're considering all factions and mission types, in which case Gotva Prime is just another hybrid rifle with a flavor passive. That's why my build looks endgame and unoptimized, because it's optimizing on homogenized performance in general content, not specializing in something specific. I'm just abusing Hunter Munitions with Primed faction damage.

[Highasafly]

3 hours ago, Corvid said:

This is the build I've put on the copies I got for my crewmates, feel free to rip it to shreds.

  Hide contents

 

As some1 else said not using Galvanized aptitude is a crime, also galvanizes multishot. Base dmg ( serration can be ported from primary arcanes) that gives room for hunter munition/ fire rate mod.

[JadeKaiser]

24 minutes ago, Voltage said:

Holy man. I didn't expect to see Primed Reach in a Gotva Prime discussion.

Equipment availability is of course important, and I did consider it. If you don't have Primed Mods or Galvanized Mods, you simply swap to non-Primed or equivalent mods. Do you mind sharing your build? Lots of context is missing here.

General purpose builds for weapons in Warframe have become highly homogenized. What changes up the mods is when you decide "I want to mod this weapon for just Demolishers" or "I want to use this weapon while only using Chroma". In those cases, you of course shift your mindset to the optimization of one particular use case. For general usage, you're considering all factions and mission types, in which case Gotva Prime is just another hybrid rifle with a flavor passive. That's why my build looks endgame and unoptimized, because it's optimizing on homogenized performance in general content, not specializing in something specific. I'm just abusing Hunter Munitions with Primed faction damage.

See, that's fine. I wasn't saying that your build is bad, or irrelevant. Far from it, I even mentioned that it might be better to run a more standard hybrid build like the one you did rather than trying to lean on the weapon's unique trait. That's a lead for discussing the matter, not a dismissal. It does seem like you just had a bit of a reading comprehension fail, rather than being a jerk. Which is something that happens to all of us, so don't worry about it.

My build is this, at present:

Spoiler

As you can see, I'm leaning heavily on status and triggering red crits off its unique trait. I haven't taken it into really high level stuff yet, but it seems to have no trouble killing quickly against corrupted enemies in the level 100-ish range. To a degree where I think it should be good for at least another 20~30 levels or so. It does struggle a little against heavier eximus units until their overguard is depleted and they become open to status procs, though.

Edited November 4, 2023 by JadeKaiser

[taiiat]

16 minutes ago, JadeKaiser said:

My build is this, at present:

off of that, then any of the options won't change much on their own. swapping in Hunter Munitions won't really make a significant difference by itself compared to what you already have, so do whatever or nothing.
the biggest difference from here will be if you're "maining' the Gun, then use Viral, if you're mixing your Weapons (and so some Viral coming from elsewhere) then you can use whatever Damage Types the Enemies are weak to.

significant differences will come from when you can add Galvanized Mods to give you more Mechanics to take advantage of(and reduce the value of a couple other Mods), or an Arcane to free up space from Serration(for longer Missions, that is).

[Reitrix]

I have mine with:

Galv Chamber. 

GAptitude.

Vital Sense.

Hammer Shot.

Corrosive + Heat

Critical Delay. 

Primary Merciless for the arcane.

Ends up with 69% Crit chance, 118% Status and 7x crit multi.

Overframe estimates 70 to 90k dps and most likely won't factor in the special crits. 

It's a pity it has no innate slash but the heat procs on a red crit can be pretty spicy sometimes. I could probably swap Critical Delay to a pure heat mod to beef up the Heat procs, but I like the fairly consistent chunky crits from having 69% CC and 7x multi. 

[Corvid]

11 hours ago, Highasafly said:

As some1 else said not using Galvanized aptitude is a crime, also galvanizes multishot. Base dmg ( serration can be ported from primary arcanes) that gives room for hunter munition/ fire rate mod.

Bear in mind that these are just for my Railjack crew, I'm not investing any forma into them.

[SneakyErvin]

Dont be too quick to dismiss Hammer Shot in general. It's worth depends alot on what crit stats the gun has in general compared to base damage stats and what statuses you actually want to apply from the weapon. Adding a third can both be beneficial and detrimental in the end compared to adding hammer shot instead. On Gotva using both a third 60/60 and hammer shot is a no brainer, since it only comes with puncture, so no slash weighting to screw up.

It is practically the same case on a weapon like Torid, where you practically decide between hunter munitions or hammer shot, but due to the insane status chance, guaranteed crits and over the top base crit damage multiplier, hammer shot is a great choice on it. You really dont need HM on that gun, since you will likely either have insane Heat stacking or Gas+Electric or Gas+Cold setup on it depending on the frame you use.

And on any gun with high native slash, good crit chance and status I'd pick hammer shot any day of the week since it wont interfear with slash, and it increases the damage of each slash tick aswell, which a third 60/60 mod wont.

As to the Gotva build, I'd replace Vigilant Armaments with Critical Delay. Slap Avenger on your frame and you will nearly always benefit from the 7x crit damage aswell and even be able to reach the odd orange crit when combined with the native puncture. Then get galv mods so you can replace Split Chamber with Gchamber and Serration with Gaptitude.

[baked]

2 hours ago, Corvid said:

Bear in mind that these are just for my Railjack crew

Yep, with that in mind no galvanised makes a lot of sense, as far as I'm aware NPCs using your weapons are not able to proc or benefit from conditional mod effects.