is Eclipse bound to stay that way?

[(PSN)Hopper_Orouk]

after a few missions with Eclipse on Revenant, I immediately switched to Roar, doesn't matter if eclipse is the superior buff, this thing sucks.

because, what is the point of a good damage buff if you can't find the right lighting for it? I found myself fighting my position more than the enemies.

 

I don't know what I would suggest, I don't really know, I'd hate to loose the identity of the ability, if it's not affected by light in some way then it shouldn't be called eclipse right?
How about this...

 

when you activate Eclipse you get BOTH the damage buff and the damage reduction at the same time at base level...light and darkness amplify the effectiveness of both buffs respectively...the amplification doesn't go away if you step out of the lighting,

for example activate eclipse at 100% damage buff and 50% dr...if you go through a certain light source, that buff will increase to 125%, another stronger light source will increase it to 175% and so on
the same thing for the damage reduction if you stepped in darkness you get better dr.

[sunderthefirmament]

4 minutes ago, (PSN)Hopper_Orouk said:

after a few missions with Eclipse on Revenant, I immediately switched to Roar, doesn't matter if eclipse is the superior buff, this thing sucks.

because, what is the point of a good damage buff if you can't find the right lighting for it? I found myself fighting my position more than the enemies.

 

I don't know what I would suggest, I don't really know, I'd hate to loose the identity of the ability, if it's not affected by light in some way then it shouldn't be called eclipse right?
How about this...

 

when you activate Eclipse you get BOTH the damage buff and the damage reduction at the same time at base level...light and darkness amplify the effectiveness of both buffs respectively...the amplification doesn't go away if you step out of the lighting,

for example activate eclipse at 100% damage buff and 50% dr...if you go through a certain light source, that buff will increase to 125%, another stronger light source will increase it to 175% and so on
the same thing for the damage reduction if you stepped in darkness you get better dr.

Mirage is pretty strong and popular, so yeah, I think it's safe to say that Eclipse will likely stay as it is forever.  A shame.  It's simultaneously boring and frustrating.

 

_{This is neither here nor there, but I wish Mirage would get a rework that would turn her into less of an egg-timer buff frame and more of an actual illusionist, with her mirror images functioning like actual minions, albeit temporary, a la clones from the Guild Wars 2 Mesmer.  But such a change would probably make more sense for DE to package and ship as an entirely new frame.}

[taiiat]

the UI/buff bar indicating the current strength as well as the maximum/peak strength would be a good start, anyways.

or maybe changing the way it scales so that increasing Strength also makes it scale with light/dark more sharply, in the sense that it's increasingly more generous as to how light/dark it has to be to get the full bonus.
so that the maximum value of the Stat goes up as well as inches you closer to your peak on average.

this doesn't remove the light/dark aspect, but would help it be more consistent in practice since your average ratio to your peak of each Stat will be higher the more your invest into it.

[SneakyErvin]

Yeah I have a hard time standing Eclipse due to the mechanics of it. Even if it is a massive weapon damage buff I rather just use Roar since you know exactly how much of a buff you'll get. A baseline buff to both offense and defense would be a great way to solve it as suggested, with more time in light or dark increasing the two buffs. Would make it work similar to Vex at that point if it keeps the gained values upon recast.

It's like those times when I sit down and feel like playing Mirage and I go "hmm I might aswell just pick Chroma" since they practically do the same and Chroma isnt random as a weapon buffer, and needs 10 kills (iirc) to cap the buff if you have combat discipline slotted.

[SDGDen]

eclipse is *that* strong precisely because you need to deal with the gimmick to get it's full power.

i can see them removing the gimmick to just give you both buffs, but only by also reducing both buffs (with mirage getting the buff amount that helminth eclipse gets now and helminth eclipse being lowered to half of that for the damage buff and 50% for the DR buff) 

[(PSN)Hopper_Orouk]

14 minutes ago, SDGDen said:

eclipse is *that* strong precisely because you need to deal with the gimmick to get it's full power.

i can see them removing the gimmick to just give you both buffs, but only by also reducing both buffs (with mirage getting the buff amount that helminth eclipse gets now and helminth eclipse being lowered to half of that for the damage buff and 50% for the DR buff) 

well what do you think about my suggestion below the intro of the OP? It's not much but I'd like to know.

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

Yeah I have a hard time standing Eclipse due to the mechanics of it. Even if it is a massive weapon damage buff I rather just use Roar since you know exactly how much of a buff you'll get. A baseline buff to both offense and defense would be a great way to solve it as suggested, with more time in light or dark increasing the two buffs. Would make it work similar to Vex at that point if it keeps the gained values upon recast.

It's like those times when I sit down and feel like playing Mirage and I go "hmm I might aswell just pick Chroma" since they practically do the same and Chroma isnt random as a weapon buffer, and needs 10 kills (iirc) to cap the buff if you have combat discipline slotted.

the multiplier is so strong on it's own that if they lowered the buff to 200% only it would still be stronger than roar, I think...(I really get confused between these two) 

so I don't mind lowering it, I just need a convenient damage buff/dr source.

[(PSN)Hopper_Orouk]

1 hour ago, taiiat said:

the UI/buff bar indicating the current strength as well as the maximum/peak strength would be a good start, anyways.

or maybe changing the way it scales so that increasing Strength also makes it scale with light/dark more sharply, in the sense that it's increasingly more generous as to how light/dark it has to be to get the full bonus.
so that the maximum value of the Stat goes up as well as inches you closer to your peak on average.

this doesn't remove the light/dark aspect, but would help it be more consistent in practice since your average ratio to your peak of each Stat will be higher the more your invest into it.

never understood how it's been a decade and they still kept the UI as it is...
I will never want the ability to be a press this to get this buff...I want it to actually still retain it's relation to lighting in the map...but make it so that it's a bit more controllable and manageable.

[Birdframe_Prime]

I have to agree with the other people, I think it's going to stay just how it is... maybe with a UI update to show the percentage.

The thing that I can see happening is a rework to Mirage herself that allows her to change the lighting over a given area. Since her 4 actively gets worse if you're in the dark... she definitely needs something.

[taiiat]

3 hours ago, (PSN)Hopper_Orouk said:

the multiplier is so strong on it's own that if they lowered the buff to 200% only it would still be stronger than roar, I think...(I really get confused between these two) 
so I don't mind lowering it, I just need a convenient damage buff/dr source.

if Damage side was reduced much, it would just always be inferior to Roar, particularly via Helminth.
since Roar is Anti-Faction and so has such great value for DoT's.

 

[Birdframe_Prime]

6 hours ago, (PSN)Hopper_Orouk said:

the multiplier is so strong on it's own that if they lowered the buff to 200% only it would still be stronger than roar, I think...(I really get confused between these two) 

Okay, let's do the comparison, Hopper:

Roar: Roar buffs all damage. Not just weapons, it buffs all damage. If an instance of damage happens, caused by a person affected by Roar, it is buffed. What this means is that it's amazing for buffing damage that causes secondary damage, for buffing companions, for buffing allies, and for buffing Ability based frames too.

For example, on of the strongest things it does is 'double dip'. So take Slash for example, and Bleed. Slash deals an instance of damage, and then Bleed is calculated as a percentage of that damage every second for six instances (at base, some things adjust that). Roar buffs the initial damage hit, which means it has more base damage to calculate the Bleed with, and then the Bleed damage itself gets buffed by Roar as well, so it's a higher tick even after the higher base. With an un-modded Roar, Helminth'd on, let's compare a normal shot that would deal 100 damage, and then 35 damage every second, for a total of 310 damage, to a buffed one that would deal 130 damage, and then tick for a little over 59 damage every second for a total of 485 damage. See? Huge difference even without mods.

Eclipse: This only buffs weapon damage, but it buffs it a lot more, with full light producing up to 200% damage at base. With Helminth, Eclipse is reduced a little to 150% base in full light, so let's take that same shot again. 100 damage, 35 per tick, becomes 150 damage and 52.5 per tick, for a total of 465. So in the same situation you can argue that it's just worse.

The multipliers do go higher, though, and DE have done some silly things now and again. For example, the Plains almost always counts as full light during the day and under direct moonlight at night, so that's a way to be more consistent with it. Since Mirage's multiplier is higher, a 200% Strength build on Helminth'd Eclipse does have different results when you compare that. 930 damage, versus Roar's 697.6 if you're going to use that same example.

This varies based on the things you're hitting and what you're shooting, but Roar's advantage is that all-rounder nature of it that buffs all damage you deal, not just weapons.

Other damage boosting functions for guns include Xata's Whisper, which adds a secondary hit of damage to every weapon attack you do, with a base of 26% and as Void damage (neutral against all factions). This one is best for either rapid fire critical builds, or massive up-front damage, although it has great synergy with Exalted Blade. 26% seems low, but of course with strength, being able to hit for a secondary hit that has the same status and crit chance as your weapon, being able to put on something like Hunter Munitions... That can be exceptionally strong.

Nourish, Smite (with Smite Infusion), Shock (with Shock Trooper), these instead of adding another hit, just add the damage type onto the weapon like modding, but with Strength this can be insanely high. Smite Infusion on some bosses, for example, can be amazing when you've got a full build of other mods and elemental types on there.

Basically...

If what you're looking for is to do weapon buffs, Eclipse can be the most impressive, especially with more and more and more Strength. However, if you want to do something like Archon hunting, for Amar, maybe Smite Infusion would be better? Maybe you need to buff a particular damage type, so getting on Shock Trooper would be great. Or maybe you just want to simultaneously never run out of energy due to massive increase in energy gain, as well as getting large amounts of Viral, and you should go with Nourish.

Pick for your purpose, Hopper, don't narrow your mind down into which is just higher numbers ^^

[(PSN)Hopper_Orouk]

10 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Pick for your purpose, Hopper, don't narrow your mind down into which is just higher numbers ^^

well this is just it though, I was comparing Roar with eclipse in a scenario where you can't proc dot status, or status procs are limited in effectiveness.
aren't they all one in the same as multipliers? both buff total damage right?

Indeed, Roar is a lot better with Dots, But I was thinking If I get Eclipse and a bane mod equipped then eclipse is practically better.

...my purpose using these damage buffs is to deal with heavy units and bosses...everything else dies anyway without damage buffs...I only ever really need damage buffs against demolysts, Archons, liches and sisters, etc...
 

The Reason I was comparing them, not because I want higher numbers...I just wanted to know which ones synergize better with base damage mods and buffs, like Thrall pact...or other buffs like Plunder, Nourish.

[Birdframe_Prime]

3 minutes ago, (PSN)Hopper_Orouk said:

well this is just it though, I was comparing Roar with eclipse in a scenario where you can't proc dot status, or status procs are limited in effectiveness.
aren't they all one in the same as multipliers? both buff total damage right?

Except for the key difference. You're not just buffing your weapon with Roar. You're buffing all of your damage and all of the damage of everyone and everything that's on your side in range of the cast too.

Eclipse is the better straight up damage buff for your weapons, especially in situations where DE have keyed the lighting correctly to give you the higher levels of buff. But. There's nuance. Dropping a damage mod that you could multiply with Eclipse for a Bane mod to multiply the effects? Interesting balance.

You aren't just doing weapon damage, though, you never are. There's all sorts of other kinds of damage you can be dealing, and any frame that can benefit from Roar for the weapons can also benefit from Roar for the abilities (unless you're Inaros, because screw Inaros these days...).

If you want to synergise with Nourish, then Roar. Why? Because Viral is a multiplier that then stacks with Roar. So the 350% damage from Viral then has the 'generic faction' boost from Roar so you get the extra percentage at the end.

If you want to synergise with Plunder, that's Corrosive and you're simply removing enemy damage resistance and dealing direct damage, which works best with Eclipse, because you're still powering through the remaining Armour with raw damage instead of with DoT effects.

Pick for what the direct effects you're enhancing actually are.

[(PSN)Hopper_Orouk]

3 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Except for the key difference. You're not just buffing your weapon with Roar. You're buffing all of your damage and all of the damage of everyone and everything that's on your side in range of the cast too.

Eclipse is the better straight up damage buff for your weapons, especially in situations where DE have keyed the lighting correctly to give you the higher levels of buff. But. There's nuance. Dropping a damage mod that you could multiply with Eclipse for a Bane mod to multiply the effects? Interesting balance.

You aren't just doing weapon damage, though, you never are. There's all sorts of other kinds of damage you can be dealing, and any frame that can benefit from Roar for the weapons can also benefit from Roar for the abilities (unless you're Inaros, because screw Inaros these days...).

If you want to synergise with Nourish, then Roar. Why? Because Viral is a multiplier that then stacks with Roar. So the 350% damage from Viral then has the 'generic faction' boost from Roar so you get the extra percentage at the end.

If you want to synergise with Plunder, that's Corrosive and you're simply removing enemy damage resistance and dealing direct damage, which works best with Eclipse, because you're still powering through the remaining Armour with raw damage instead of with DoT effects.

Pick for what the direct effects you're enhancing actually are.

Thanks Birdframe, This actually really helped!

[ImWithDerp]

I hope not but its hard to know what alternatives would be reasonably achievable with the current engine.

That said, if we want to keep the lighting based gimmick (which is a separate argument altogether), I'd love to Eclipse to give it gives 50% of each buff in neutral lighting instead of nothing at all.

Or if changing its gimmick is on the table, then it could be based of something like our current shield percent (max shields give the full damage buff but no defense buff, half shields give 50% of both buffs, no shields give the full defense buff but no damage buff).

 

[Fred_Avant_2019]

Hey look, another rev player 😵

But yes, I actually dislike that you have no control over what buff you get and how much of it you get. I mean, you do get control over it, in a sense, because the buff is tied to where you are at any given moment and if that location has alot of light or barely any, but you're never just standing in a corner when playing this game (I mean, you can, but it doesn't make too much sense doing so).

[Hexerin]

Pablo has responded about this very topic already: