A Complete Rework Of The Foundation Of Warframe.

[Feauce]

However, i should have emphasized that your post was simply a new FOUNDATION, not an entirely new game.

Maybe it should be an entirely new game. I, for one, would love to work on the development. :)

[theGreatZamboni]

Yea, you were right, but i was referring to Phatose.

 

He was saying that your system doesn't provide an endgame, so i put a link for my post about a new system that does just that. Wasn't a direct response to your post, just to Phatose.

 

However, i should have emphasized that your post was simply a new FOUNDATION, not an entirely new game.

 

Like I said, I have no problem as long as it doesn't derail the thread. Without clear intent, it comes off poorly. I am reading your thread.

[MJ12]

I've finished reading your incredibly wordy OP and I think that your proposal is basically throwing the baby and the bathtub out alongside all the bathwater.

 

You're right that an actively gimmick mod configuration can gimp players, but understanding the mod system is also part of 'player skill', something you discount because it's not skill in shooting people. It's no less a part of gameplay than your hypothetical system would create, i.e. "knowing where to allocate your level-ups".

 

You're basically asking for a total core rework of a game to fix issues that can be fixed much more easily, such as "utility mods are generally awful pieces of crap that need huge buffs", "abilities should have their own dedicated mod slots so Warframes have a full 10 for customization", and "weapons should innately level up damage so nobody 'needs' Serration/etc (which can be converted into fusion cores and credits for everyone and just retired)". Instead, you fall into what I like to call the novice game designer trap-seeing several problems, and then deciding because the problems exist they must be core to the current system (instead of ancillary details made out of multiple independent mistakes) and thus the entire system must be burned to the ground.

 

DE isn't Firaxis, they can't go through ten iterations of Warframe over five years to get a new and improved game, not anymore at least.

 

Furthermore, your rework negatively impacts game longevity. The skinner box is a thing. You make it harder for people to see big numbers get bigger. People play videogames to get big numbers. It's why Farmville, a 'game' with no gameplay at all, managed to be addictive. The Skinner Box is a thing, and Warframe recognizes it.

[Shadowcrusnik]

Maybe it should be an entirely new game. I, for one, would love to work on the development. :)

 

lol

[Shadowcrusnik]

I am terribly sorry, but. . . .

 

 

http://media.animevice.com/uploads/3/37669/702764-3290737_bump_meme.jpg

[Seze]

I absolutely love the OP's idea and it's incredibly well thought out. Unfortunately there's just one itty bitty tiny flaw, this will never happen... ever.

Don't get me wrong here, I love Warframe and I think DE has done an amazing job, but implementing new things is not their strong suit. If by some miracle DE did decide to change gears we might see something barely resembling this in the next two years... maybe.

DE is great at releasing new content, LOTS of new content. We have dozens upon dozens of weapons, Warframes, tile sets, etc., but fixing and introducing new mechanics? Nah, sorry, ain't happening.

[tmtke]

I saw a lot of ideas what game dev studios can do, but I can precisely tell you that designing, developing and deploying a new tileset or warframe with full animation set is much larger than a simple mod. Also most of the commenters are idiculously underestimating the amount of work these guys are doing. The workload can be ordered most likely as: tileset > warframe > weapon > skin > mods (with effects provided) - and I'm only talking about simple content, not their coherence and ingame stats and workflow. Maybe a full frame is equally big task as a whole tileset, but it depends on the tileset complexity.

Also, stating that everybody plays warframe to grind mods is foolish. Personally my playstyle is a thorough level progression, searching hidden stuff, stealth if possible, and trying out various things, experimenting with mods and frame powers. I bought 2k plats in a 75% offer, and only bought formas, potatoes, slots and visual tuning (color palettes for example). I still have half of it without an urge to spend it on frames, mods or weapons. I want to construct them, work for them. But I never farmed them, still having 8 lvl 30 frames and a couple of weapons, plus a couple of rare mods.

So, as I tried to tell earlier (and "everything will fell in place" is not an answer), the main problem is that the players don't really have to teamplay except survival/defense, and doing a map via running is as rewarding as a full search&destroy. Advancement and levelling is secondary in terms of longevity.

Edited November 27, 2013 by tmtke

[notionphil]

As for this being "too big a step to take". I have already explained why something akin to this is necessary in other posts, in this thread. If not exactly my suggestion, something needs to be done. What Notion suggests is only a band aid on a bleeding heart. My suggestion is invasive surgery, that fixes the problem.

 

Hyperbole isn't too helpful in explaining why you believe simple fixes won't work. The three issues you listed are:

 

1. Grind

2. Samey builds

3. Randomness

 

Simple fixes - that could be implemented in days/weeks instead of months of rebalance/ui and $$$$ of dev costs

 

Grind - Remove RNG mod drops. Make every single mod mastery rank/skill based rewards (survive wave 15 xini for Sundering Strike. Get 10 headshots in 20 sec for Eagle Eye, Achieve mastery rank 1 for Serration)

 

Samey Builds - Separate mod slots into sections (barrel, stock, scope) - (systems, helmet, chassis). That way you can only choose a set % of key mods, and have more room for customization. Each weapon could have diff # slots and diff sections.

 

Randomness - Already fixed by Killing drop tables. Make all mods achievement like rewards.

 

Besides your melee suggestions, what does your proposed 'invasive surgery' fix that the above three 'bandaid' fixes don't?

 

You're basically asking for a total core rework of a game to fix issues that can be fixed much more easily, such as "utility mods are generally awful pieces of crap that need huge buffs", "abilities should have their own dedicated mod slots so Warframes have a full 10 for customization", and "weapons should innately level up damage so nobody 'needs' Serration/etc (which can be converted into fusion cores and credits for everyone and just retired)". Instead, you fall into what I like to call the novice game designer trap-seeing several problems, and then deciding because the problems exist they must be core to the current system (instead of ancillary details made out of multiple independent mistakes) and thus the entire system must be burned to the ground.

 

Agreed. Cool ideas and sweeping proposals can be interesting and awesome, however, they aren't always an effective way to solve a problem. If the efficacy doesn't go above and beyond the suggestions above (yours, mine or any simple fixes), it's not worth the additional effort.

[hyperkayak]

I approve this message :D

[Taihus]

I absolutely love the OP's idea and it's incredibly well thought out. Unfortunately there's just one itty bitty tiny flaw, this will never happen... ever.

Don't get me wrong here, I love Warframe and I think DE has done an amazing job, but implementing new things is not their strong suit. If by some miracle DE did decide to change gears we might see something barely resembling this in the next two years... maybe.

DE is great at releasing new content, LOTS of new content. We have dozens upon dozens of weapons, Warframes, tile sets, etc., but fixing and introducing new mechanics? Nah, sorry, ain't happening.

Just because not all of these ideas are feasible doesn't mean we can't have a dialogue about what problems there are with the game as it stands and how we might improve it.

[Madotsuki]

Your melee overhaul was SO inspired from Remember Me XD

 

Either way, these rework concepts for the game's fundamental mechanics are extremely bold and would require a lot of work, and probably would upset a lot of people (people hate change), but it would ultimately be for the betterment of the game.

 

You'd have great potential as a game producer :o I salute you and hope that DE will listen to some good feedback like this for once.

[bobafetthotmail]

 

 

Grind - Remove RNG mod drops. Make every single mod mastery rank/skill based rewards (survive wave 15 xini for Sundering Strike. Get 10 headshots in 20 sec for Eagle Eye, Achieve mastery rank 1 for Serration)

Madness. The whole game uses RNG to simulate difficulty and challenge, and to pressure people to buy stuff with real money. Pull that away and the game will simply implode as everyone reaches end-game in a week.

[Tevye]

Wow, this was a long read. For comprehension purposes and flow of idea progression, you really should consider breaking it down into sections. And that is the issue with the thought in general. It's not a rework you are essentially proposing; it's not even invasive surgery. This idea is a compete gut of the game systems. The dev's would have to literally throw out years of work to implement much of this. And proposing it all as a massive dissertation only serves to make it easier to balk at your ideas, many of which are based on legitimate concerns.

From your posts, it seems you are asking yourself "why are the player base playing this game, and what happens going forward, with current patterns of content releases". Based on the answers you have come up with, you then built an impressive total package overhaul concept. But how are you certain you are correct in your base assumptions? Personally, my gameplay here is not driven by the next widget on a check list. Yes, that is a feature of the game, and yes, I like expanding my build options with new foozles, but it's not at the core of the game for me. A radical overhaul to change that system would not fix the long term gaming issues for me. Before we go demanding the de's put this horse out of its misery, it might be helpful to poll the player base on:

What do you find rewarding about warframe?

What do you find frustrating?

What content do you most want?

What would you like to see implemented in a different way in the game?

Edited November 27, 2013 by Remitevji

[LennoFF]

I really like this idea.  It's got my vote.

[Loswaith]

No offense bud, but:

1) One of the main point was that the mod system puts emphasis on farming mods over playing the actual game/crafting an enjoyable experience.

2) It's creativity through adversity: If you didn't limit the number of system or power mods everyone would stock up on continuity, focus, stretch, streamline, flow, etc and continue to completely ignore mods like shield flux, intruder, handspring, etc. The idea is to let the player retain most of their maximized and still have some toys to play with.

Farming can be a purpose, mods and resources actually used to drop quite frequently around the U7/U8 days, short of a few mods like the multi-shot mods (which really werent even needed to do even the hardest content), mods flowed well.

Limitatiions dont actually enhance diversity, they stifle it, while limitations arent adversity, they are simply limitations.

 

If all mods were a viable option or you had those one or two slots that enabled you some choice then you would have more diversity to build as you want.

As it is now you really only have room for the integeral mods to make a frame/weapon more powerful, the others dont even make the cut because of the need to add the inherant enhancements.

 

The current mod system can achieve it, by making mods drop more offten, or more reliably.  The 2.0 mod drop system didnt really help that as putting rare mods on rare enemies makes them less common and harder to get, not easier to get (ie increasing the grind).

On top of that making mods like redirection, vitality, and the blanket weapon damage increases inherant to the warframe or weapon ranking as well as making warframe powers their own slots would open up build posibilities much higher as you have allot more free space.

 

I'd like to ask a question that is, I think, pretty key:

If Warframe depends on players wanting to grind for more mods and content, then how do other 4-player co-op games like Left 4 Dead and L4D 2 retain their players and attract more players even now, even though the maps are the same, and there is no player progression? What is it about Left 4 Dead or Killing Floor that makes people come back and play them over and over, despite these games having none of the aspects that some people here feel that Warframe NEEDS for continued success?

Actually I'd suspect its the factor that in these games players actually have to work togeather and cooperate (thus getting some trward from cohesive teamwork), in warframe you really dont have to work togeather, short of very high level defence/survival.  In warframe you arent really a group just 4 individuals.

Edited November 27, 2013 by Loswaith

[Feauce]

Before we go demanding the devs put this horse out of its misery, it might be helpful to poll the player base on:

What do you find rewarding about warframe?

What do you find frustrating?

What content do you most want?

What would you like to see implemented in a different way in the game?

If Warframe really was in an open beta phase (which it totally isn't, for multiple reasons), DE should be asking these things of all of us on a pretty regular basis. As for me...

I find the gameplay experience in general to be very satisfying. Being able to modify our frames and weapons with Forma adds a decent level of customizability that many games don't have.

The two most frustrating aspects of Warframe are the endless, mindless, repetitive grind and the shoddy treatment of updates and fixes.

As for content, I'd say more planets, and at least one more faction. We have plenty of weapons, frames, and mods. Any more of those are just overkill.

The one biggest change I would like to see is the drop system. There should be a way that if we want a particular frame BP, or mod, or whatever, that we shouldn't be at the RNG's mercy to get it. There should be some system where we can make realizable progress toward what we actually want to get.

To add a segment of my own, the one thing that, more than anything, I would love to be able to rid the game of is the "Rush every map, every time, no stopping for anything or anyone" behavior that is so prevalent. It has no place in a game that's supposed to be built on the idea of cooperation.

[Tevye]

One of the best small idea's for improvement I've seen here was the idea to take the frame skills and seperate them from the customization block of mod slots. Though I'd like to build a fun parry and melee build, at the expense of skills and high performance mods it's hardly feasible. For easy of discussion, it should be spun off into its own thread though.

I would Absolutely love to see more gameplay elements that encourage team play and co operation. While I don't have a problem with rushers doing their thing, I do not enjoy playing it their way, so will often solo when my clan mate isn't able to play when I can. I think a further elaboration of the stealth mechanic and missions based around stealth might be a good way to encourage group efforts, or perhaps missions with complex objectives requiring teamwork and timing to achieve. But since I started, each new mission type has trended toward more complexity.

I would also like to see more lore and story content roll out, but it seems like I may be in the minority on that, and I can wait.

Edited November 27, 2013 by Remitevji

[Empiren]

I don't understand why there is always 4 slots for skills but for most every warframe, you don't use all 4 skills endgame.

 

Like.....why put that there?

[Ganpot]

I have multiple things to say in regards to the OP. 

 

1. You clearly put a massive amount of effort into this.  I respect that.  The only problem is that I disagree with almost everything you wrote. 

 

2. Mastery Rank should never lock off content from players.  That accomplishes the exact opposite of your stated goal: which is to make skill the overriding factor in the game.  Mastery Rank has nothing to do with skill.  It is tied only to how long you've been playing and how many weapons/warframes you've used. 

 

3. Splitting up the mod system into 3 areas won't fix cookie-cutter builds and a lack of diversity.  All it will do is limit choice, which will in turn make those issues even worse.  Right now, a player can decide to invest almost purely in defensive mods, and be just as viable as someone who invests in all offensive mods.  Your system won't allow that; everyone will have to invest in offense and defense equally.  Furthermore, do you really think players won't immediately do some number-crunching and discover optimal builds in each area?  It doesn't matter if Intruder doesn't have to compete with Redirection, because it always has to compete with something.  If doesn't matter if it's competing with Flow, Redirection, Mag Lev, or even Handspring: no sensible players will ever choose Intruder.

 

4. Don't confuse power creep with skill.  Giving players permanent stat boosts based on their mastery rank is not encouraging skill, it's doing the opposite (by letting non-skilled players do better through sheer grinding).  An online game which encouraged true skill would put players on an even footing, regardless of time spent in-game. 

 

5. The ability to gimp yourself is the very definition of freedom.  That's not stupid; that's a good thing.  If a player builds their character in a terrible way, they deserve to have a hard time.  At least Warframe lets players redo their builds whenever they want (outside of a mission, of course).  Games such as Dark Souls force players to start over from scratch.  Most modern games are so obsessed with forcing players to succeed that they never give them a chance to massively screw up.  Messing up is part of the learning experience; players need to analyze what they did wrong and adapt. 

 

6. You can already sacrifice the effectiveness of some powers in order to boost others.  My standard Ash setup only has 1 power equipped in the first place.  That's the entire point behind Corrupted mods.  Even without those, applying mods which only benefit certain powers is an indirect way of picking and choosing between them. 

 

7. There will always be min-maxing; that's just human nature.  Your attempts to provide "no bad choices" are admirable but doomed.  Bad choices do not exist in a vacuum, they are bad because something else is comparatively better.  Furthermore, you are giving way too much credit to the mod system.  A player can equip all top-of-the-line mods and still have made "bad choices" by bringing weapons that deal impact damage to fight Infested. 

 

8. So... your idea to fix Warframe's weapon system is to turn it into Battlefield / Call of Duty?  I don't hate those games, but they both have the exact same balance issues as Warframe does.  Don't try to tell me that some scopes and attachments aren't better than others in those games.  Look at your own attachment chart: what sane person is going to pick a silencer over Split Chamber?  You haven't fixed anything, and all you've ended up doing is eliminating variety. 

 

9. Please, please tell me that you didn't just use Remember Me as inspiration for Warframe's combat system.  That game has, quite possibly, the worst combat system seen in a non-indie or shovelware beat-em-up game released in the last decade.  Not only that, but it wouldn't work in Warframe.  Giving players the option to deal more melee damage, regain health, or regain energy is incredibly flawed. At higher levels, players die in seconds anyway, so health is pointless.  Melee damage is too risky (due to the close-range nature of it).  And energy is the one mechanic in the game which allows players to clear out endless amounts of enemies at once.  What do you think players are going to choose?  Lastly, melee isn't nonviable because it's boring, it's nonviable because you're facing enemies with guns (or enemies which can repeatedly stagger you if they hit you) and melee weapons don't do enough damage to be worth that extra risk (except the Galatine, and that is overkill on most enemies). 

 

10. While you bring up some legitimate problems with Warframe's design (pure damage mods are mandatory, mods and weapons aren't balanced properly against each other, reliance on RNG, etc.), you've attempted to fix those problems in almost the worst possible way.  Out of the three core problems you outlined (grind, lack of build diversity, and RNG), you've only solved one of them.  Players will still have to grind, but for Mastery Rank instead of mods.  Players will have even less build diversity, because they'll be forced to use certain types of mods.  The irony is that solving RNG could be far more easily accomplished by either creating a ticket system (which allows players to buy the specific mods they want after completing enough content) or a crafting system (ala Hearthstone, where players can destroy cards they don't want in order to choose new cards they do want).  Trading had the potential to also fix RNG, but because platinum is allowed to be traded, no one wants to trade mods for other mods. 

Edited November 27, 2013 by Ganpot

[theGreatZamboni]

I'm losing my mind over this. People keep parroting the same things I went out of my way to specifically call attention to. They are not parroting them because it is evident they are flaws, but because they are failing to understand the proposed concepts. To see people saying this is worse, or saying that making Mastery Rank mean something is bad....every little gripe is addressed in the wording of the original post. Not a single opposed comment or critique has stood ground when posed against my proposal. It has been reiterated by me and others who clearly understood the message, while others who have claimed to have read it, are missing these key points that I have made sure to address. It seems something is being lost translation. I covered all the bases. Things that were not expounded upon were done so for a reason. But it seems the very people who are complaining about its length, seem to be the only people who are taking issue. Meaning they are missing key points made that blow holes in the very critiques they are making. It has become a cycle. I cannot respond to everyone who keeps parroting the same complaints over and over, when the complaints they are expressing are addressed in my post. You do not have to be a mind reader to understand what I am saying or proposing. I used the English language and its nuances to make sure that by the end of my post, you understood everything that came before and why. This is not about me having to be right. This is about people failing to comprehend something that was designed to be comprehensive. I have re-read this over and over and over. There is nothing there that warrants the low level of the criticism thus far. The only truly constructive arguments made, were from BlatantFool and from OtherGrunty. About Melee and Auras respectively. They, like numerous others understood what the post entailed. The rest of the thread has either been redundant shlock or people have to explain what was already explained in the OP.

 

This has broken down into "I don't like this", "too much work" or a complete failure on the part of the reader to comprehend the post. I will not leave that blame solely on the reader as there must have been something in what I had written to cause this confusion. That being said, it becomes an act of tedium to have to continually reference the very first post, my post,  as a means to defend my own idea. It clearly shows a lack of comprehension. People continue to make shallow, ignorant comments about the proposed ideas based on superficial understandings of what makes a game fun or core systems sustainable. I suggest anyone else who feels the need to comment, re-read the entire thread. Every single post. Then read it again. Then re-read the OP. That way I can save myself the time of having to quote myself over and over. I can get back to using my free time to expound upon the questions that have been raised, ones that are legitimate and not made out of ignorance. I can understand not liking it. But to base your reasoning on points of contentions that are disproved by the very post you are critiquing is just absurd. In those very attempts to remain objective, you have in actuality given false opinions, due to not understanding what is proposed. If you do understand it and still do not like it, I welcome you to explain why. But be sure not to use contradictory statements that are based on you not fully reading the proposed ideas. If you have questions about how certain things would work, I am willing to answer. I want people to understand this. While this is not the only solution, people are making it out to be wrong based on what they deem to be simpler. Changing from the original skill tree to the current Mod Card system was not easy. Why should it be any easier now? When people have been clamoring for better melee, less grind and more choice based on preference; to disagree with my idea based on "It does not do that" is ludicrous. You may disagree with the kinds of choices, but to discount that it creates said choice is again, ludicrous.

 

People are reading "barring content via Mastery Rank" as a bad thing. Certain weapons and Warframes are barred right now, unless you forgo a payment. This isn't keeping content from people, but creating a means in which you can better adjust content to be challenging based on someone's level. To say having attachments is "trying to make this Call of Duty" is absurd. Just because a game uses a flashlight, does not make it Alan Wake. Just because a game is cell shaded, doesn't make it Borderlands or Wind Waker. Just because a good idea failed to be fully realized in one game, does not mean it cannot be retooled and better executed in another. It is the level of morose ignorance that concerns me more than people disagreeing. It is for the reasons they are doing so. There is playing the devil's advocate and there is just being ignorant.

Edited November 27, 2013 by theGreatZamboni

[Taihus]

Regarding melee combat, I've still yet to see any discussion over whether the alternative brought up here https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/137875-a-complete-rework-of-the-foundation-of-warframe/?p=1648801 would be more feasible than the one proposed by the OP. Criticizing his ideas is well and good, but if you must criticize perhaps you could try to bring up some alternative ideas?

[theGreatZamboni]

Regarding melee combat, I've still yet to see any discussion over whether the alternative brought up here https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/137875-a-complete-rework-of-the-foundation-of-warframe/?p=1648801 would be more feasible than the one proposed by the OP. Criticizing his ideas is well and good, but if you must criticize perhaps you could try to bring up some alternative ideas?

 

My system is an extension of the one already being worked on. It remains quick and provides utility to compliment guns and powers. I am making 4 separate threads to expound upon these ideas. But needless to say, that idea can work. I just prefer mine because I feel it provides more choice and utility.

 

 

My system takes exactly what they are already doing and adds player choice and functions. Rather than just chaining attacks that only do damage, you make the combos net effects that compliment what you are already doing. Again, I am expanding on it. I took most of the free time I had today re-posting quotes from my OP. It was this video coupled with other ideas, which netted what I am now calling the Fight Lab.

Edited November 27, 2013 by theGreatZamboni

[Phatose]

This has broken down into "I don't like this", "too much work" or a complete failure on the part of the reader to comprehend the post. I will not leave that blame solely on the reader as there must have been something in what I had written to cause this confusion.

 

If I may suggest it, it's your lead in in your original post causing this trouble. 

 

For example:

 

 

People play to obtain drops. Mods are drops. Now this is a point of contention, but I am willing to bet some people are tired of the game and find themselves only playing to obtain said drops. The problem being the gameplay in and of itself is not satisfying. The drops/rewards are acting as the driving force for player retention, instead of creating experiences that are rewarding and letting the drops compliment those experiences. This is the very idea that lead to people to begin rushing en masse. People rush because they do not want to waste the time, energy (in game and out) as well as ammo when they can just reach extraction and receive their reward. Sometimes there is a boss in the way and players will take an extra two seconds to kill said boss, then proceed to rush to the exit. A many of bosses are designed with invincible phases, which only highlight the issue at hand and people become frustrated. The idea is, people go fast because it is a means of coping with the mechanics that cause them to second guess whether they are or not they are having fun. They want the end goal and find nothing in between to be rewarding.

If you are still with me, it should becoming quite clear what the issue is. The fact that player progression is tied to chance and not skill. When skill becomes exploiting the mechanics of the game to get ahead, it does nothing but showcase bad design. Rushing is essentially an exploit. Using Iron Skin to play survival (before the patch) was an exploit. People sought the best way to get around bad design in order to progress. Damage 2.0 still suffers from similar problems due to mods. Just like in Damage 1.0 we have inflated numbers because the developers are unable to ballpark where players are at in their progression. Not to mention certain weapons have now lost utility and power due to new resistances and variances. Any spec you build means you will be ineffective against at least one enemy type per level. That is not something that is fun. So once again you have people exploiting systems to get around hindrances in design. I am well aware that Damage 2.0 was bound to have bugs, but I did not expect gaping holes. I have a specific build on my Brakk where I can 2-shot the Jackle. That should not happen. But it happened for exactly the reasons I stated above. The Mod Card system makes designing content a guessing game. More simply the system suffers from:

1. Grind

2. Samey builds

3. Randomness

Having 300 Warframes and 1000 weapons cannot make up for bad design. Especially when said Warframes and weapons fall victim to the very problem that faces this game: The Mod Card system. Because the effectiveness of your Warframe and Weapon are not tied to your skill or interaction with said items but to the mods you have equipped, the game becomes one of drops. You play to max Serration, Redirection, Focus, Primed Chamber. These issues now feed into what we now know as Damage 2.0.

 

The important misguiding piece is this line - "Because the effectiveness of your Warframe and Weapon are not tied to your skill or interaction with said items but to the mods you have equipped, the game becomes one of drops."  Based on that, I would reasonably expect that your proposed solution is going to be based on your skill and interaction with said items and the mod, or mod equivalents you have equipped.

 

But what you propose doesn't actually address that very much.  The next section is the one on Warframe mods or your skill tree replacement. 

 

There though, your base power isn't actually tied to your personal skill.  "The higher your Mastery Rank, the more powerful your Warframe becomes.............But how do players increase their Mastery Rank? They can complete systems, participate in Alerts, level Warframes and guns. But wait, with mods gone; how do guns work? Better than ever."  That is grind.

 

You briefly touch on the concept of samey builds, but you really don't much address how your system actually avoids that.  You've broken down into multiple trees where less used functions won't compete with more used ones - but you don't really explain why we're not going to see ideal builds in your system.  Skill trees in every other game I've seen that used them did in fact result in cookie cutter builds.  It's nice that Serration and Maglev aren't in the same bracket for space and all, but each of them is going to be competing with other equivalent abilities, right?  Won't it end up as "Don't take fast shot, take hard shot, and don't take maglev, take quick recovery"? or the like?  No samey builds is one of your central tenents, and really deserve a lot more then you gave.

 

Now, removing randomness you've done quite well. 

 

But what really comes across where you're against randomness, and the other two aren't really that important.  It's OK if that's what you want to suggest, but it doesn't need to be tied to the other two reasons you give if that's your main point.  It's a much different discussion there.

 

Is your main issue randomness?

[FatRefrigerator]

I don't know what you just said. But I agree 100%

 

 

Same here.

 

Too long; didn't read. But it had cool looking pictures. +100.

 

Also I hate mod cards so I like this.

[Ganpot]

I'm losing my mind over this. People keep parroting the same things I went out of my way to specifically call attention to. They are not parroting them because it is evident they are flaws, but because they are failing to understand the proposed concepts.... This is about people failing to comprehend something that was designed to be comprehensive. I have re-read this over and over and over. There is nothing there that warrants the low level of the criticism thus far.

 

I suggest anyone else who feels the need to comment, re-read the entire thread. Every single post. Then read it again. Then re-read the OP.... When people have been clamoring for better melee, less grind and more choice based on preference; to disagree with my idea based on "It does not do that" is ludicrous. You may disagree with the kinds of choices, but to discount that it creates said choice is again, ludicrous.

 

Of course you haven't found anything in the OP that warrants massive criticism: you wrote it.  And if you think that the majority of people who disagree with you are simply ignorant, you must have a very low opinion of people in general.  I read your OP 3 times, and also read the entire thread.  Then, I re-read your OP while writing my post (which is why it follows your OP idea by idea).  I've got a very good idea of what you're proposing, and I'm telling you that it won't work. 

 

Saying that your idea would not create more choices is not ludicrous, it is logical.  Mods allow for the most theoretical choice possible, because there are (almost) no limits on which mods can be placed where.  The only way your idea could possibly expand the number of choices would be to allow shotgun, pistol, melee, and rifle mods to be used interchangeably (which wouldn't make any sense).  If you still disagree with that assessment, show an example of how your system can come up with more combinations than the old one. 

 

 

People are reading "barring content via Mastery Rank" as a bad thing. Certain weapons and Warframes are barred right now, unless you forgo a payment. This isn't keeping content from people, but creating a means in which you can better adjust content to be challenging based on someone's level. To say having attachments is "trying to make this Call of Duty" is absurd. Just because a game uses a flashlight, does not make it Alan Wake. Just because a game is cell shaded, doesn't make it Borderlands or Wind Waker. Just because a good idea failed to be fully realized in one game, does not mean it cannot be retooled and better executed in another. It is the level of morose ignorance that concerns me more than people disagreeing. It is for the reasons they are doing so. There is playing the devil's advocate and there is just being ignorant.

 

You're right, certain weapons and warframes are currently placed behind a mastery rank barrier.  And do you know what that has accomplished?  It has created imbalances, increased grind, and continuously limited realistic choice by forcing players to use only certain weapons and warframes. 

 

Is my claim that your proposed weapon system is "attempting to become Call of Duty" really that absurd?  You admitted that your ideas were largely taken from other games, and the weapon attachment idea was clearly taken from some modern military shooter or other (seeing as only those games use such systems).  I didn't say that you were attempting to make all of Warframe into Call of Duty, only the weapon system (which is accurate, as far as I'm concerned).  Truth be told, I don't care where your inspiration comes from.  My critique (which you conveniently ignored) was that the systems you're importing have absolutely no impact on the problems you claim they will fix.  It's a non-sequitur. 

 

As a side note, if you want to take inspiration from another game in order to improve Warframe's melee system, you should try using a game which has a deep, polished, and fun melee combat system to begin with (Remember Me fails on all three counts).  My personal suggestion would be Ninja Gaiden Sigma (simply because it mainly uses 2 attack buttons, has almost every weapon category that Warframe does, and would fit Warframe's existing style).  There are other candidates, of course. 

 

You seem to be personally insulted by peoples' criticisms.  Whenever you share ideas with others (especially online) you need to be prepared to face hostility, and recognize when your opponents make a valid point.  Criticism is usually far more helpful than agreement.  I should know; I've written numerous threads on these forums that have been met with general hostility.  Perhaps that hostility was unwarranted, or perhaps my ideas just weren't good in the first place.