Nuke Builds Are Ruining Gameplay Enjoyment

[Rawbeard]

On 2024-01-19 at 6:38 PM, Zinxori- said:

You pull up a Exterminate Fissure mission on Public matchmaking

I mean... 

[Neoronial]

The same point of view has been mentioned by many people (including myself). Once mentioned, many beneficiaries said, "If you don't accept it, just go and play alone."

Many of us even need an outlet to vent our anger due to long-term repression. I feel the same way. It's like when you remind people around you not to smoke in public places again and again and you are told "get the xxxx out of here".

I DO understand using this gameplay to quickly get fissures, but this gameplay has already spread to almost all gamemodes. For example, Garuda, which is currently helminthed with Thermal Sunder, can easily complete Steel, ignoring obstacles and killing everything instantly. As a Mirage main, I almost never use the Prism Guard due to its high energy consumption (of course, also because the gameplay of killing everything just by moving is very boring). And what about Neutron Star? So what are the flaws of Thermal Sunder? It can be helminthed to Garuda to obtain unlimited energy supply, and the interval between skill activations is very short! I think at least the skill activation interval needs to be nerfed. Those noises...

Maybe some of us just sit back and wait for those players to get tired of nuke playing, but at least I'm tired of dealing with it and actually playing alone. Even netracell.

We can see that many new players are attracted by this easy, high-return and low-effort gameplay and give up delving into so much game content. Of course, I love this game. But as mentioned in some of the replies above, more than half of the players feel that the game content produced by DE is becoming increasingly boring. Guess why? One of the answers to the question is TOXIC to the operation and development of Warframe.

[Raikh]

You can't really blame nuke playstyles on the players to any meaningful degree. Its not just 1 Frame/Weapon/Ability thats waiting for a nerf. There are a lot of ways to nuke rooms, some more, some less convenient. And if enemy encounters aren't meaningful and are trivial ofc players will resort to whatever means gets the job done the fastest. Chasing down individual enemies isn't particularly exciting if they are just getting onetapped anyway.

And ofc this sucks in multiplayer since if just one player nuking is enough to deal with all the enemies in an instant there isn't anything left to do for the other players. But that isn't a community etiquette issue or shouldn't be. This is something that needs to be accounted for in the game's design. You can't honestly expect players to hold themselves back in a public mission just so someone else they do not even know about and play one or maybe a few Exterminates with and possibly never meet again can test their shiny new toy.

I can sympathize with the frustration but this is on the game, not the players. And as a player the only thing you can do is find your own workarounds to improve your experience, not expect other players you dont even know to create your preferred gameplay environment for you.

Edited February 4 by Raikh

[(XBOX)APinho]

Ill try to be as respectful as possible.

Like many comments the solution is to play solo... than again some of us can solo 90% of the game. If I see someone nuking the room I luv it even more. Fast kills = fast games. If you get in a game that has a nuke player leave and start again.

[SneakyErvin]

15 hours ago, Merkranire said:

I have been answering, you haven’t been listening. You’re too caught up in calling things half-builds and bad builds when the build is complete enough to do the job it’s meant to with spare slots and capacity and loadout choice left over, you’re too caught up on worrying over not using things we’ve earned despite my repeatedly saying I’m using everything I’ve earned here’s alternative combinations of build and content to show it and nothing is off the table for the future, you’re too obsessed with the goal being “Take thing into Steel Path” when I’ve repeatedly told you it’s not, you think that it’s all the same across different levels of content it’s just numbers shifting when I’ve told you it’s not, you straight up said you do not understand and that came as zero surprise because you never even tried to.

I gave up explaining anything to you, Ervin. You hear what you want to and fatigue me with how many times I repeat myself to a brick wall. Amongst all that I’ve said is an allusion (if not straight up explanation) to how the game itself works which shouldn’t take more than two braincells to understand what happens when you take a Steel Path build to something like Arbitrations and why it happens because of how the game works and how the game working the way it does lends itself to the core concept of a game about buildcrafting and variety while you obsess over some arbitrary cutoff point for what makes a build and variety

But you havent answered it. I've asked you what the purpose and goal is of the build. If your 3 mod argonak takes say 10 rounds to kill mob X in arbis, is that your purpose and goal with the build, needing 10 shots instead of 8, 6, 4 or 2, or 12, 14, 16 etc? Or is the goal to simply clear arbis? If so, why not build for efficiency in arbis then? Is the goal to just be able to clear A? Why is that a goal? What does that goal bring you? What is the reason you only want to reach that point? Do you get more out of the mode that way, and what exactly is it you get out of the mode in that case that you wont get out of the mode by being more efficient?

It seems you have some issue with making things "too easy". Which makes it sound like you never go beyond rota A, since if you build for something further, rota A is less engaging than needed for you, no matter what content you do really. Wouldnt it be better to build for a rotation further in that lets you have more engaging gameplay in a single session even if it trivializes the starting rotations? You'd still reach the engaging content that you are looking for.

There is also nothing odd in taking a "Steel Path build" to arbitrations, since Arbitrations are set up in a way where staying longer is incentiviced due to the time gate and RNG nature of the mission types available. So if I wanna stay for X amount of time in arbis a "SP build" is likely suited for that since the damage output of the enemies will quite quickly be roughly the same, since those do not beyond the level increase of mobs. The difference is the eHP of the mobs and the density really. So even for a star chart mission, bringing a "SP build" would be viable if I wanna stay for X amount of time, since again, the damage scales with enemy levels, not SP specifically.

So it seems you have less a problem with "SP builds" and more an issue with endless builds. So is running endless now the wrong approach to the game aswell?

[Merkranire]

5 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

But you havent answered it. I've asked you what the purpose and goal is of the build. If your 3 mod argonak takes say 10 rounds to kill mob X in arbis, is that your purpose and goal with the build, needing 10 shots instead of 8, 6, 4 or 2, or 12, 14, 16 etc? Or is the goal to simply clear arbis? If so, why not build for efficiency in arbis then? Is the goal to just be able to clear A? Why is that a goal? What does that goal bring you? What is the reason you only want to reach that point? Do you get more out of the mode that way, and what exactly is it you get out of the mode in that case that you wont get out of the mode by being more efficient?

The goal is to have engaging gameplay with free slots and capacity to further customise that gameplay, how is this so hard to understand and why do I have to keep repeating myself?

If I bring a SP build, it’s loaded with damage mods for the sake of dealing with SP enemies; what do you think is going to happen not only to my gameplay in solo, but my teammates’ gameplay in multiplayer if I jump into Arbitrations with some SP build?

You can see what the Argonak does, I specifically built it that way and point to it in isolation to keep it simple, it’s got a Serration and 90/90 Radiation, it can spread Radiation which comes in handy when it doesn’t immediately kill everything or do bonus damage to things weak to Radiation and does more damage in general because of Serration. There’s no conditional hoops to jump through, the DPS is consistent with little random chance outside of status and crit and even that can be pseudo-controlled through the player switching between two firing modes, because it won’t destroy everything equally that gives a chance for my other pieces of kit to come into play and have their say, I’d recommend this to newbies even if they haven’t fully-ranked their mods because it’s so straightforward to understand using basic fundamentals. And that’s in isolation, before we even get to any sort of synergy of Warframe or Secondary or whatever, which are also built from the modless baseline up

If I start loading up on additional damage mods and start consuming more capacity and slots that could be used for alternative mods to do it, yes, I start going further, but I’m also starting to build for higher than level 60, and if I’m not looking to go further but I’m built for something way higher than 60, then I’ve burned my slots and capacity using redundant amounts of damage, which can be fun in moderation but after some time gets tedious and repetitive, and if I were to join a multiplayer session with that way-higher build then my teammates are redundant too

5 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

It seems you have some issue with making things "too easy". Which makes it sound like you never go beyond rota A, since if you build for something further, rota A is less engaging than needed for you, no matter what content you do really. Wouldnt it be better to build for a rotation further in that lets you have more engaging gameplay in a single session even if it trivializes the starting rotations? You'd still reach the engaging content that you are looking for.

If I wanted to sit in Arbitrations for hours on end, sure, I would build for it, and those hours on end would be fairly mind-numbing for most of it until it gets to the point that it meets my build (if it ever does) if I’m not in the mood for trivialised content using builds that have huge amounts of redundant damage. I usually just do a few rounds though, partly because I don’t have the time to sit around for hours on end, partly because doing anything on repeat for hours on end starts getting to me no matter how I’ve tuned my gameplay, partly because I’m built for a specific stopping point and then it’s fun to try and push it using those builds, and I have failed and lost everything except some Vitus and yet I just jump in again, because seriously, how fast do you want me to blaze through this game until I have no reward to look forward to and why would I do it while bored out of my gourd. And because I know what I’m built for, I can take advantage of the bonuses to elevate builds that I know wouldn’t cut it normally but I still want to use

5 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

There is also nothing odd in taking a "Steel Path build" to arbitrations, since Arbitrations are set up in a way where staying longer is incentiviced due to the time gate and RNG nature of the mission types available. So if I wanna stay for X amount of time in arbis a "SP build" is likely suited for that since the damage output of the enemies will quite quickly be roughly the same, since those do not beyond the level increase of mobs. The difference is the eHP of the mobs and the density really. So even for a star chart mission, bringing a "SP build" would be viable if I wanna stay for X amount of time, since again, the damage scales with enemy levels, not SP specifically.

So it seems you have less a problem with "SP builds" and more an issue with endless builds. So is running endless now the wrong approach to the game aswell?

Yes, a SP build is viable in Arbitrations and lets you go further.

No, I don’t have a problem with SP builds, I have a problem with you bringing your SP build to multiplayer for something that doesn’t need it even for the last rotation (do whatever you want in solo). Go hang out in SP and I’ll join you, and if you can’t, then put the SP build aside temporarily and figure out a new alternative build. You’re the higher-level player jumping into a lower-level dungeon, which typically is a faux pas because players know how mechanics and systems are tied to levels and some twinked-out hero jumping in means that the others running the dungeon don’t get to run the dungeon.

In Arbitrations I roll my eyes and drop out when it’s clear you’re more interested in going infinitely long in the one mission than playing with a teammate, in something like an Exterminate I’m downright pissed because you don’t have that excuse to fall back on and you still overkill everything anyways because you literally haven’t figured out how to stop yourself since it does take effort to find these mid-points; enemies may be fairly straightforward with their scaling, how our builds and gameplay interact is not and DE haven’t given us an obvious way to determine at a glance what we’re built for which means if you think you’re going to stumble into a build that matches the content, you’re aiming for a longshot and there’s no guarantee you’ll even be able to identify that point if it happens

Edited February 4 by Merkranire

[darklord122]

13 hours ago, Merkranire said:

The goal is to have engaging gameplay with free slots and capacity to further customise that gameplay, how is this so hard to understand and why do I have to keep repeating myself?

Ngl Merk, Your points while might be fun to you, Are not indicative to what others find to be fun. If you want to build for specific points in levels and limit yourself then sure, go for it. But don't dictate how others should spend their time in a multiplayer game where ultimately the fun and challenge is of your own choosing.

And while making a build for specific end points might take some effort, Its not what everyone wants. Its what you want and you want others to conform to that which is highly conceited. You are gonna have to realize you are not the figurehead in a mission to which others should conform to and what others should aspire to do in a mission.

People want to go in and destroy entire crowds instantly? Guess what that's what they are allowed to do. No matter how frustrating it might seem to you that's their choice and their way of having fun. If you do not wish to encounter said people then there are still choices that you have to mitigate it. Go with friends. Go solo. Squad up with like minded people. But do not dictate to another player what to do in regards to game play in a game where constructing builds and seeing funny numbers go up is a very big part of the game.

If people want to go back to lower end missions and destroy everything instantly that's up to them. You still have a choice to be there or not.

Ultimately, You are the one who has decided to limit yourself to specific levels, modes and have corresponding builds for them, however thats on you. Not everyone else. If you want your frustrations to end you have either A: Gotta accept the fact this game does not center around your builds no matter what mission you play, And keep playing the way you do. Or B: You start building for higher level content and play that correspondingly where most people are on a level playing field.

No-one is telling you to blaze through the game nor have told that what you are doing is inherently wrong. However you have made your choices and you want others to make the same choices. That's not how this works. Either you start accepting that or you don't.

Fun and challenging are subjective in this game. And everyone is allowed their own ways of it.

Edited February 5 by darklord122

[Aldain]

Honestly I'm more concerned with the ever growing durability requirements expected of players than the nuke aspect these days.

[Merkranire]

18 minutes ago, darklord122 said:

Ngl Merk, Your points while might be fun to you, Are not indicative to what others find to be fun. If you want to build for specific points in levels and limit yourself then sure, go for it. But don't dictate how others should spend their time in a multiplayer game where ultimately the fun and challenge is of your own choosing.

And while making a build for specific end points might take some effort, Its not what everyone wants. Its what you want and you want others to conform to that which is highly conceited. You are gonna have to realize you are not the figurehead in a mission to which others should conform to and what others should aspire to do in a mission.

People want to go in and destroy entire crowds instantly? Guess what that's what they are allowed to do. No matter how frustrating it might seem to you that's their choice and their way of having fun. If you do not wish to encounter said people then there are still choices that you have to mitigate it. Go with friends. Go solo. Squad up with like minded people. But do not dictate to another player what to do in regards to game play in a game where constructing builds and seeing funny numbers go up is a very big part of the game.

If people want to go back to lower end missions and destroy everything instantly that's up to them. You still have a choice to be there or not.

Ultimately, You are the one who has decided to limit yourself to specific levels, modes and have corresponding builds for them, however thats on you. Not everyone else. If you want your frustrations to end you have either A: Gotta accept the fact this game does not center around your builds no matter what mission you play, And keep playing the way you do. Or B: You start building for higher level content and play that correspondingly where most people are on a level playing field.

No-one is telling you to blaze through the game nor have told that what you are doing is inherently wrong. However you have made your choices and you want others to make the same choices. That's not how this works. Either you start accepting that or you don't.

Fun and challenging are subjective in this game. And everyone is allowed their own ways of it.

And when someone jumps into a multiplayer match and takes the game away because they’re built for content they’re not doing, what then?

You guys keep going on about how it’s the game that’s at fault when it’s you who are choosing the combination of build and content, it’s utterly your choice to not do content you’re built for and instead jump into content that sits way below what you’re doing, and that’s been part of the whole thing I’ve been arguing about inconsiderate players stealing gameplay away and sidelining their teammates who would otherwise be able to do something.

You can argue that it’s the right of players to take the game away for others, that doesn’t make it right, it makes you a problem. I’m stuck in solo because you’re dominating the field using builds that are out of all proportion for what the content asks for, nevermind alternative playstyle choices, there’s nothing left when you step onto the scene, and that’s on you. Sorry if I’m not grateful for your bull-in-a-chinashop approach that centers around engaging with and relying on other players as little as possible, I jumped into a multiplayer mission expecting to play alongside someone else, not get forced to leech by players who undoubtedly complain about leeches and I’m like “Well WTF am I supposed to do, fight you for things to do? Provide an extra gun you wouldn’t miss if I wasn’t there? Assist you in chasing your goals of efficiency even more when that mindset is already part of the problem?”

[--Leyenda-yight6]

hace 44 minutos, darklord122 dijo:

Ngl Merk, Your points while might be fun to you, Are not indicative to what others find to be fun. If you want to build for specific points in levels and limit yourself then sure, go for it. But don't dictate how others should spend their time in a multiplayer game where ultimately the fun and challenge is of your own choosing.

And while making a build for specific end points might take some effort, Its not what everyone wants. Its what you want and you want others to conform to that which is highly conceited. You are gonna have to realize you are not the figurehead in a mission to which others should conform to and what others should aspire to do in a mission.

People want to go in and destroy entire crowds instantly? Guess what that's what they are allowed to do. No matter how frustrating it might seem to you that's their choice and their way of having fun. If you do not wish to encounter said people then there are still choices that you have to mitigate it. Go with friends. Go solo. Squad up with like minded people. But do not dictate to another player what to do in regards to game play in a game where constructing builds and seeing funny numbers go up is a very big part of the game.

If people want to go back to lower end missions and destroy everything instantly that's up to them. You still have a choice to be there or not.

Ultimately, You are the one who has decided to limit yourself to specific levels, modes and have corresponding builds for them, however thats on you. Not everyone else. If you want your frustrations to end you have either A: Gotta accept the fact this game does not center around your builds no matter what mission you play, And keep playing the way you do. Or B: You start building for higher level content and play that correspondingly where most people are on a level playing field.

No-one is telling you to blaze through the game nor have told that what you are doing is inherently wrong. However you have made your choices and you want others to make the same choices. That's not how this works. Either you start accepting that or you don't.

Fun and challenging are subjective in this game. And everyone is allowed their own ways of it.

Thousands of arguments have already been given, but unfortunately there are people who cannot accept that they are not the center of the universe.

[Merkranire]

2 minutes ago, --Leyenda-yight6 said:

Thousands of arguments have already been given, but unfortunately there are people who cannot accept that they are not the center of the universe.

Mods you’re going to have to stop me again real soon if I see another lovely friendly oh-so-nice community member acting like they’re not a problem

Edited February 5 by Merkranire

[Aruquae]

2 minutes ago, Merkranire said:

Mods you’re going to have to stop me again real soon if I see another lovely friendly oh-so-nice community member acting like they’re not a problem

Shhhh, don’t let them know your plans.

I’ll be right behind you

[Merkranire]

Just now, Aruquae said:

Shhhh, don’t let them know your plans.

I’ll be right behind you

Mostly it’d just be a bunch of name-calling again because BIG SURPRISE, I have about as much ability to do anything here as I do when one of these heroes jump into a mission with me while they tell me to sit back and stop complaining, they’ll take over from here.

I feel like I’m going nuts with the whole “We’re not the problem, you’re the problem” gaslighting, and I feel like I’ve said as much a while ago too

[Aruquae]

2 minutes ago, Merkranire said:

I feel like I’m going nuts with the whole “We’re not the problem, you’re the problem” gaslighting, and I feel like I’ve said as much a while ago too

It’s amazing how ignorant people can be. I know I’m no different… but times like this when you just need to look at yourself and wonder… “Is anyone else having this problem? No… so am I the problem?” Idk probably. 

[Leqesai]

1 minute ago, Aruquae said:

It’s amazing how ignorant people can be. I know I’m no different… but times like this when you just need to look at yourself and wonder… “Is anyone else having this problem? No… so am I the problem?” Idk probably. 

Many people would do well to realize this; not just in this community but in the real world as well. 

[Merkranire]

11 minutes ago, Aruquae said:

It’s amazing how ignorant people can be. I know I’m no different… but times like this when you just need to look at yourself and wonder… “Is anyone else having this problem? No… so am I the problem?” Idk probably. 

I’m looking at myself and looking at the game and looking at the players who steal the game away.

Me and the game, we’re working together and want others to join in, I’m literally built to enable it and welcome others to play because I know how to leave space for others while being able to contribute for my part

Players like the ones who hog all the game? They’re not exactly built for multiplayer, are they? They’re built to solo whatever would normally be something multiplayer-oriented and extra players are some warm bodies that are tacked on, usually because they can potentially make the mission a smidge faster or are walking talking extra relics. Gamehogs are also not going to be the ones complaining because they’re the ones hogging all the game.

You saw what the mindset is for some of these players, right? They only do multiplayer when they feel like they have to, and they don’t want to mess with relying on others or any of the nasty business of dealing with others. They’re making their builds and choosing the content to put themselves in a position where they can act all magnanimous because they know they’ve got the mission covered with no help required when it comes down to it; I would expect they’d be singing a different tune if they couldn’t do that

[Kronxito]

They arent ruining anything. Just play solo or with friends. 

Why should people stop using the builds they like?? Because you dont like it?? Because they do better than you??

Are you really that egocentric???? Please seek for some help and mind your own business, OP guy. 

[Merkranire]

1 hour ago, Aruquae said:

It’s amazing how ignorant people can be. I know I’m no different… but times like this when you just need to look at yourself and wonder… “Is anyone else having this problem? No… so am I the problem?” Idk probably. 

Was just looking through some earlier posts and was reminded that what I would love is just some sort of filtering. Much as we’ve butted heads, I don’t want their toys taken away because that takes away my toys as well.

We don’t want to match, that much is clear, but we don’t get a say aside from what content we choose to do, which apparently isn’t enough. I’d be fine with something as simple as “Built to Fight/Built to Farm”, since those are two very different things with different expectations of build and gameplay.

[darklord122]

1 hour ago, Merkranire said:

And when someone jumps into a multiplayer match and takes the game away because they’re built for content they’re not doing, what then?

You guys keep going on about how it’s the game that’s at fault when it’s you who are choosing the combination of build and content, it’s utterly your choice to not do content you’re built for and instead jump into content that sits way below what you’re doing, and that’s been part of the whole thing I’ve been arguing about inconsiderate players stealing gameplay away and sidelining their teammates who would otherwise be able to do something.

You can argue that it’s the right of players to take the game away for others, that doesn’t make it right, it makes you a problem. I’m stuck in solo because you’re dominating the field using builds that are out of all proportion for what the content asks for, nevermind alternative playstyle choices, there’s nothing left when you step onto the scene, and that’s on you. Sorry if I’m not grateful for your bull-in-a-chinashop approach that centers around engaging with and relying on other players as little as possible, I jumped into a multiplayer mission expecting to play alongside someone else, not get forced to leech by players who undoubtedly complain about leeches and I’m like “Well WTF am I supposed to do, fight you for things to do? Provide an extra gun you wouldn’t miss if I wasn’t there? Assist you in chasing your goals of efficiency even more when that mindset is already part of the problem?”

No-one is wrong for having a SP build in a normal mode, Noone is wrong for building the way you do. However you have the complete wrong mindset towards how to play the game.

You can't reasonably ask everyone to play the way you do, That's the same as everyone telling you that you have to play only SP for example. And remember that you are not the center of this games universe. You do not dictate how people spend their time, How they want to play nor how they have fun. Nor do you decide on why someone plays with a higher level build than you in a game where the build is your choice.

Your view is entitled. Sorry to say but thats the way it is. Is it frustrating that everything gets killed before you can kill things? Probably. But remember that youve put yourself in this position when there are a multitude of ways for you to not have this happen as frequently whether that be tailoring who you play with or playing on higher difficulties/modes or maybe not limiting your options. But thats a choice.

Everyone has something they dislike about the game. I hate nuke builds. Do I ask for them to be removed? No, They are ultimately a game play style that exists within the game and alot of people have fun or prefer playing that way to make their gameplay experience more fun or convenient for them. Do they stop me from killing or playing? No they do not.

I can spin your narrative around for you to. Its You who are choosing the combinations of build and content, Its utterly Your choice to do content that restricts your playstyle yet still expecting people to hold your standards at play. Its your choice to actively undermine other players and be inconsiderate towards them in regards to how they want to play when you can take steps to prevent it yourself.

No-one is taking anything from you, You actively limit yourself and have expectations on others to do the same and then get flabbergasted when people of higher builds turn your mobs into mincemeat.

Ill say it again. You do not dictate how a player gets to play in order to enjoy the game how they wish. Just like how no-one can dictate the same for you. Just remember what you build has consequences if people with higher builds than you come into play. And sorry to say, You cant change that.

Stop expecting people to adhere to you. No-one expects you to adhere to them.

Edited February 5 by darklord122

[Merkranire]

11 minutes ago, darklord122 said:

No-one is wrong for having a SP build in a normal mode, Noone is wrong for building the way you do. However you have the complete wrong mindset towards how to play the game.

You can't reasonably ask everyone to play the way you do, That's the same as everyone telling you that you have to play only SP for example. And remember that you are not the center of this games universe. You do not dictate how people spend their time, How they want to play nor how they have fun. Nor do you decide on why someone plays with a higher level build than you in a game where the build is your choice.

Your view is entitled. Sorry to say but thats the way it is. Is it frustrating that everything gets killed before you can kill things? Probably. But remember that youve put yourself in this position when there are a multitude of ways for you to not have this happen as frequently whether that be tailoring who you play with or playing on higher difficulties/modes or maybe not limiting your options. But thats a choice.

Everyone has something they dislike about the game. I hate nuke builds. Do I ask for them to be removed? No, They are ultimately a game play style that exists within the game and alot of people have fun or prefer playing that way to make their gameplay experience more fun or convenient for them. Do they stop me from killing or playing? No they do not.

I can spin your narrative around for you to. Its You who are choosing the combinations of build and content, Its utterly Your choice to do content that restricts your playstyle yet still expecting people to hold your standards at play. Its your choice to actively undermine other players and be inconsiderate towards them in regards to how they want to play when you can take steps to prevent it yourself.

No-one is taking anything from you, You actively limit yourself and have expectations on others to do the same and then get flabbergasted when people of higher builds turn your mobs into mincemeat.

Ill say it again. You do not dictate how a player gets to play in order to enjoy the game how they wish. Just like how no-one can dictate the same for you. Just remember what you build has consequences if people with higher builds than you come into play. And sorry to say, You cant change that.

Stop expecting people to adhere to you. No-one expects you to adhere to them.

My god, you’ve… you’ve opened my eyes!

All those times I jumped into multiplayer and met some player too attached to their builds that they can’t set them aside or alter them even when they cause problems, I’ve been under the wrong impression!

They never expected me to adhere to their playstyle, it just sort of happens by dint of there being nothing left! All along, what they really expected me to do was…

uh…

was… …. something. Hm, I’ll have to get back to you on what they expected me to do

[SneakyErvin]

16 hours ago, Merkranire said:

The goal is to have engaging gameplay with free slots and capacity to further customise that gameplay, how is this so hard to understand and why do I have to keep repeating myself?

Because it isnt an answer to the question asked. And if you are going to further customize, then it isnt a build, it is a build in progress. Since the free slots and capacity does nothing while you are already in a mission. So those slots and capacity fill no role or purpose in the end. You could for instance, with that build add multishot, crit and more radiation, it would be the exact same build since it would do the exact same thing, shot enemies and apply radiation while dealing radiation damage. The difference is only that it could be used in higher content and in more rotations to leave you more wiggle room. 

For arbitrations as you use as an example for the "build" you are effectively sabotaging for anyone that ends up in your group, especially if you are the host. Since you are not able to push with your build, so you are prone to be a host mig forcer when you wanna leave, when most players at baseline will very likely want to run a couple of rotations so the hour for the mission isnt completely wasted.

16 hours ago, Merkranire said:

No, I don’t have a problem with SP builds, I have a problem with you bringing your SP build to multiplayer for something that doesn’t need it even for the last rotation (do whatever you want in solo). Go hang out in SP and I’ll join you, and if you can’t, then put the SP build aside temporarily and figure out a new alternative build. You’re the higher-level player jumping into a lower-level dungeon, which typically is a faux pas because players know how mechanics and systems are tied to levels and some twinked-out hero jumping in means that the others running the dungeon don’t get to run the dungeon.

That is a massive assumption and misconception. There are many builds where I invest very little in offense, they are also builds I take to the SC if needed, with nothing specific in them aside from TTL to make them viable in SP. Those builds dont change the triviality of SC, since the base of the build itself trivializes SC, the modeless base as you refer to it. And those builds are simply used in order to increase efficiency when doing SC. I can for instance do nothing with my Protea, Garuda, Saryn, Banshee, Ember etc. to make them effectively worse at SC, since nothing in their builds really increase their actual power, since practically everything is just QoL modding outside of their TTL choices. Their power comes directly from their kit. The main difference is that my Saryn recently changed in order to be able to guarantee corrosive procs, but that has zero impact on SC since the skills already kill there without extra strength added.

So you really dont have a problem with any mode, you have a problem with people not enjoying things the same way as you do. But your idea of fun is also in a minority, so expecting that others would do as you do is highly illogical when setting foot in something like a PuG of a looter game. It isnt about "SP builds" since these builds are simply builds done way back and then added to in order to allow them to also do SP in order to be able to keep enjoying the playstyle of those frames/builds.

16 hours ago, Merkranire said:

in something like an Exterminate

You get pissed for people speeding up exterminate? The mission most people group for simply in order to make it go faster? Why are you even grouping for it if you want it to go slower? Massive you problem right there. You just sound so extremely entitled while refusing to realize that you are in a minority spot. Somehow thinking your style is the norm when it is what would be considered an extreme minority within the community. 

And again, you have a problem with people wanting efficient runs, not any mode in specific. Maybe WF just isnt the type of game for you?

edit: Also, like my newest favorite frame Kullervo. I cant actually change him from 1HKing SC, even if I go with neutral everything he will still instakill whatever he touches, even if I could equip him with a modless wooden butterknife. So what do you want me to do there? Not play the frame? Same practically goes for someone as old and outdated as Ash and several other frames.

Edited February 5 by SneakyErvin

[Merkranire]

30 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Because it isnt an answer to the question asked. And if you are going to further customize, then it isnt a build, it is a build in progress. Since the free slots and capacity does nothing while you are already in a mission. So those slots and capacity fill no role or purpose in the end. You could for instance, with that build add multishot, crit and more radiation, it would be the exact same build since it would do the exact same thing, shot enemies and apply radiation while dealing radiation damage. The difference is only that it could be used in higher content and in more rotations to leave you more wiggle room. 

For arbitrations as you use as an example for the "build" you are effectively sabotaging for anyone that ends up in your group, especially if you are the host. Since you are not able to push with your build, so you are prone to be a host mig forcer when you wanna leave, when most players at baseline will very likely want to run a couple of rotations so the hour for the mission isnt completely wasted.

That is a massive assumption and misconception. There are many builds where I invest very little in offense, they are also builds I take to the SC if needed, with nothing specific in them aside from TTL to make them viable in SP. Those builds dont change the triviality of SC, since the base of the build itself trivializes SC, the modeless base as you refer to it. And those builds are simply used in order to increase efficiency when doing SC. I can for instance do nothing with my Protea, Garuda, Saryn, Banshee, Ember etc. to make them effectively worse at SC, since nothing in their builds really increase their actual power, since practically everything is just QoL modding outside of their TTL choices. Their power comes directly from their kit. The main difference is that my Saryn recently changed in order to be able to guarantee corrosive procs, but that has zero impact on SC since the skills already kill there without extra strength added.

So you really dont have a problem with any mode, you have a problem with people not enjoying things the same way as you do. But your idea of fun is also in a minority, so expecting that others would do as you do is highly illogical when setting foot in something like a PuG of a looter game. It isnt about "SP builds" since these builds are simply builds done way back and then added to in order to allow them to also do SP in order to be able to keep enjoying the playstyle of those frames/builds.

You get pissed for people speeding up exterminate? The mission most people group for simply in order to make it go faster? Why are you even grouping for it if you want it to go slower? Massive you problem right there. You just sound so extremely entitled while refusing to realize that you are in a minority spot. Somehow thinking your style is the norm when it is what would be considered an extreme minority within the community. 

And again, you have a problem with people wanting efficient runs, not any mode in specific. Maybe WF just isnt the type of game for you?

Swing and a miss for like, most of this. Some of it pointing out things that I already addressed in the very post being half-quoted. And I’m back to wondering how many times I’m going to repeat myself and… just can’t. Though the bit about sticking it out in multiplayer seems to be coming from a different perspective than my own; we’re fighting together, I’ve got things I can do to help even if my build starts lagging, and I’m pretty sure I already said I typically do a few rounds so… that’s solved for as well.

WF is a good game, endlessly rewarding and plenty of fun, and I easily see myself playing for years more. Until I switch to Public and jump into a mission and what once was a fun game is kind of… gone. Replaced by players trying to escape monotony and repetition by doubling down on what makes the game monotonous and repetitive-feeling, when I already tried that approach on my own and burnt out bad, nevermind inflicting it on others.

WF’s exactly my type of game to the point I wish other games pulled some key pages out of its book, buildcrafting and gameplay customisation and a sense that I can find a use for near anything I earn (Warm Coat needs a look-at) and so much freedom that I’m like “Man, games that take the whole ‘Given the chance players will optimise the fun out of a game’ to heart are missing out”, though I’m perpetually reminded in topics like these why that trust that games could have for their players would be misplaced

Edited February 5 by Merkranire

[Merkranire]

42 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

edit: Also, like my newest favorite frame Kullervo. I cant actually change him from 1HKing SC, even if I go with neutral everything he will still instakill whatever he touches, even if I could equip him with a modless wooden butterknife. So what do you want me to do there? Not play the frame? Same practically goes for someone as old and outdated as Ash and several other frames.

Let’s see, Kullervo….

I’m just short of building him so I’ve no experience with how he works just yet, but I’m sitting here wondering if you’re sure that there’s no kind of limit or something to the guy? You’re talking completely modless, all slots free, no Arcanes, no school chosen yet, no particular companion, a wooden butterknife (also completely modless), against… enemies standing still in the Simulacrum?

[darklord122]

54 minutes ago, Merkranire said:

My god, you’ve… you’ve opened my eyes!

All those times I jumped into multiplayer and met some player too attached to their builds that they can’t set them aside or alter them even when they cause problems, I’ve been under the wrong impression!

They never expected me to adhere to their playstyle, it just sort of happens by dint of there being nothing left! All along, what they really expected me to do was…

uh…

was… …. something. Hm, I’ll have to get back to you on what they expected me to do

You can feel free and be as snarky as you want to be. Wont change anything. If they have fun playing the game their way and you don't have fun playing it your way that is more indicative to you than to them.

Again, No-one dictates after you nor have to play the way you expect them to. Its their choice not yours. If you can't handle people having free will in terms of their builds then maybe this game is not for you. If you can't find enjoyment that does not hinge on other players playing the way you expect and want them to then you need to either swap games or have a different perspective on things.

Everyone has their own playstyle, Unfortunately that includes ones that do not align with yours. And that is just something one has to live with.

Only you can decide on how you have fun. Not how others have fun.

Edited February 5 by darklord122

[Merkranire]

2 minutes ago, darklord122 said:

You can feel free and be as snarky as you want to be. Wont change anything. If they have fun playing the game their way and you don't have fun playing it your way that is more indicative to you than to them.

Again, No-one dictates after you nor have to play the way you expect them to. Its their choice not yours. If you can't handle people having free will in terms of their builds then maybe this game is not for you. If you can't find enjoyment that does not hinge on other players playing the way you expect and want them to then you need to either swap games or have a different perspective on things.

Everyone has their own playstyle, Unfortunately that includes ones that do not align with yours. And that is just something one has to live with.

Only you can decide on how to have fun. Not how others have fun.

How ‘bout you not try and sound all wise while telling me that multiplayer’s not the place to go for multiplayer. I’ve been doing solo a long time because there’s literally nothing in multiplayer since your freedom of agency has taken away mine, I think it’s about time the status quo changed.

Though I’d be fine with a filter