Nuke Builds Are Ruining Gameplay Enjoyment

[Aldain]

Railjack to me felt like they overcorrected due to bad information that came from the sloppy launch and all the issues that brought with it.

Having to consistently fix things in the ship for example, it wasn't that is was a bad concept, the issue was that it happened every 5 seconds for no good reason because the default Railjack was made of paper even on the first node. The Railjack's base armaments were also so bad that even Archwings were more efficient. There also were WAY too damn many ramsleds and boarding parties that were severely overtuned and more durable than anything else in the game for the most part as well, which further led to this insane juggling act out the gate for no good reason.

I didn't mind some of the foibles it came with, but so many of them were ideas that didn't translate properly from paper to execution and that has sadly poisoned the well on Railjack as a concept for so many.

[MirageKnight]

3 hours ago, Aruquae said:

And it’s still going to be 3 people arguing about God knows what at this point 

It’s about whether or not nuke builds ruin gameplay for at least some players.

I’d argue that yes, this is an issue for  for at least some players.

Due to a lack of proper balancing of some AOE abilities and weapons, a lot of public missions turn into competitions to see who can clear the room / map the fastest and get the biggest numbers at the expense of players with non-meta builds that just want to have fun and experience Warframe.

Granted when I go public, I have some powerful builds that can delete squads with a click or two.
That said, I am always mindful of the fact that other people want to play / participate as well and I make a point of holding back if I get a bit too crazy with the kills.

If my intent is to blow up rooms as quickly as possibly, I go solo so I don’t ruin anyone’s experience.

What I’m seeing in this thread is a lot of self-serving arguments and opinions aimed at perpetuating toxic and non co-operative play styles.

”go play solo if you don’t like nuke builds”

Well, why don’t YOU play solo? Or is proving to 3 strangers how quickly you can trivialize content with no concern for anyone else your thing?

I get that DE built and tweaked this game certain ways that encourage power fantasies and that people ought to be able to play they want to, but DE also intended for Warframe to be a co-op experience shared by up to 4 players in a given session. The way you play should never be at someone else’s expense.

That said, DE really needs to even out the playing field more with better balance because nuke builds ARE an issue, whether some players choose to acknowledge it or not.

The current lack of proper balance is only serving to promote arguably toxic and non cooperative gameplay.

[Merkranire]

9 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

That wasnt what you started out with. That you changed the song and dance later on doesnt matter. You initial statement is what matters since arbis and sorties are not the star chart, which is the thing you seperated so clearly from SP. I'd also like to point out that the difference between a 140 mission and a 140 SP mission is rather minimal, since SP just means you'll do it slightly slower. The threat overall is the same, the difference between SP and a SC 140 mission really only kicks in if you play solo endless, and that is due to the density, since that is the thing that boosts threat through more enemies attacking you at once in SC.

Also it's hilarious that you include Archons (and Netracells since you claim to include the whole game) and then single SP out as imbalanced when the two are nearly identical, with Archons also imposing further penalties on things that makes SP easier in return.

And what you claim is what designed to do and why it was introduced is not true. That went out the door long before it was ever added to the game. When it went live it was practically SC 2.0 with some unique rewards and a higher payout for a higher risk. So that is the intent of the design since that is what they released. Unless you imply they released something they didnt intend. And if it was what you claim it was designed for, it would actually be the place to go for build variety, since it was at first mention intended as both a shortcut to higher endless and a replacement for testing builds in Sim. But it turned into its own mode, where you can still use a multitude of builds, it all just depends how hard or easy you want it. If you want to start early on in your progress and then progress through SP, or wait until you can farm it without a sweat. Like most high level content in other games.

😐

Whatever I started with would have been part of the points I made

It’s not a linear game and it’s not as straightforward a game as you think it is, and that’s why you and I are butting heads in a multiplayer squad when one of us is trying to treat it like it is and thus wrecks the joint and hogs the mission

edit: Argh, there’s just so much to unpack with what you say, like obviously the game in solo between SP and standard is going to be different and is a contributing factor to why it’s so unbalanced, how when they released SP it came with a list of caveats in the post they made alongside, how it’s clear as day what SP is meant to be and what it is right now (hint; it’s not what you think it is) even while you try and twist it into some kind of “Merely the next step in a linear journey that endlessly continues” as if it were Diablo or something when instead Warframe’s a game that by design is so much wider than it is vertical and will continue to introduce ever more horizontal options always working from the modless baseline as it ever has from the start

And the bolded part; what are you on about? To make a singular most powerful build is to eschew all the other options by design because of how the mod system is designed with a “Power comes with a literal cost”. That’s why the rest of the game is of value even if you never explore it (while acting like you know what you’re talking about) because of what you think you’re supposed to do

Edited March 4 by Merkranire

[SneakyErvin]

16 hours ago, Merkranire said:

Whatever I started with would have been part of the points I made

It’s not a linear game and it’s not as straightforward a game as you think it is, and that’s why you and I are butting heads in a multiplayer squad when one of us is trying to treat it like it is and thus wrecks the joint and hogs the mission

edit: Argh, there’s just so much to unpack with what you say, like obviously the game in solo between SP and standard is going to be different and is a contributing factor to why it’s so unbalanced, how when they released SP it came with a list of caveats in the post they made alongside, how it’s clear as day what SP is meant to be and what it is right now (hint; it’s not what you think it is) even while you try and twist it into some kind of “Merely the next step in a linear journey that endlessly continues” as if it were Diablo or something when instead Warframe’s a game that by design is so much wider than it is vertical and will continue to introduce ever more horizontal options always working from the modless baseline as it ever has from the start

And the bolded part; what are you on about? To make a singular most powerful build is to eschew all the other options by design because of how the mod system is designed with a “Power comes with a literal cost”. That’s why the rest of the game is of value even if you never explore it (while acting like you know what you’re talking about) because of what you think you’re supposed to do

It doesnt matter when you specifically single out two modes. That you then start to include other things as you get cornered and questioned is of no real interest when you were so very specific to begin with. You cant even back up what you mean with unbalanced. So cant really be written off as more than the misconception rooted in refusal to progress as I initially pointed out, which I pointed out before you even singled out SC and SP.

And heh, what "list of caveats in the post they made alongside"? There were patch notes with basic info how it works along with the regular feedback megathread. So what list? The "list" you refer to is a post that came long before SP released. Which was about two very different iterations from what they actually released.

What about the bolded part? Where does it talk anything about a singular most powerful build, where has that ever been said at all for that matter? That is really your assumption that some specific build is actually needed for SP. When in reality a multitude of builds are viable for SP, and even more if you are OK with not having the greatest of efficiency while you farm the mode. SP used to have very limited builds due to how essence was distributed. But with the change any build can practically work, it really depends on what you are actually seeking from SP. All that is needed in SP is being able to clear 1 rotation/1 acolyte, with 1 rotation being what you seem OK with elsewhere aswell. So what makes SP unbalanced then when you can achieve that goal and make use of SP with a wide variety of builds?

[ReddyDisco]

it's amazing this thread is still going, 31 pages lol

Edited March 5 by ReddyDisco

[NeDesitVirtus]

25 minutes ago, ReddyDisco said:

it's amazing this thread is still going, 31 pages lol

Eats popcorn 🍿 does Steel Path Incursions, SP endurance runs, and SP Circuit. Comes back in a few days and eats more 🍿. 

Honestly, this thread looks like 3 kids who don't know how to fight flailing at each other with spaghetti noodle arms. 

Edited March 5 by NeDesitVirtus
correction

[Cyrefy]

Unfortunately nuke are a mechanic that has already become a feature of the game, changing this would be like changing shield gate, it would need to restructure many aspects of the game, believe me I understand your pain but that would be asking too much, what I think would help would be more units with overguard, and that somehow single target weapons were the only "fast" way to break it, but I would blame it on the devs themselves, I'm a very anxious person, I've always hated game modes that depend on you doing things as quickly as possible, for that reason I love mobile defense, mirror defense, and anything else that is for time and not for KPS, if the game were more like that I guarantee you that there wouldn't be a need for nukes, at least not as much , and one of the warframes that would shine would be Nyx.

[PublikDomain]

On 2024-03-04 at 5:58 AM, SneakyErvin said:

Exactly why nerf and buff arent interchangable. Since only the target has actually changed i.e gotten buffed or nerfed. In comparison doesnt matter since 1 of the 2 has gone unchanged. So changing an enemy means that the enemy has either gotten buffed or nerfed, nothing else has since it stays the same. That something else will kill the enemy faster or slower in comparison to before doesnt matter, since it is only the enemy that recieved the actual change.

What an absolutely worthless level of pedantry. I'll use whatever terms you'd prefer, you just let me know what they are.

On 2024-03-04 at 5:58 AM, SneakyErvin said:

Yet you advocate everything to just be bland and the same

And I've told you that I'm not advocating for this over and over and over and over again. You can keep repeating whatever wild accusations you'd like, but that doesn't make them true.

On 2024-03-04 at 5:58 AM, SneakyErvin said:

Stats wont help if it means to just bring them closer

How wouldn't it? As I've explained before, Rivens have only failed to address this stats imbalance because they're so inaccessible. If they weren't so inaccessible then they would be better able to fulfill their role. For example, I can't use a Riven to fix my Paracyst's S#&$ty damage if I can't get a Riven for my Paracyst to begin with. Meanwhile when stats changes aren't tied to RNG it actually does help things out quite a lot! We have the entire history of the game to look at with our eyes and brains to see and understand this. It should be obvious! When DE buffed melee weapon damage stats, that helped melee weapons. It helped them so much it made guns feel so weak in comparison that they had to buff guns with Galvanized Mods and Gun Arcanes to try and close the "Arsenal Divide" they had created. These new items buffed primary and secondary weapon damage stats, and that helped guns. It helped them so much that DE just added Tennokai and Melee Arcanes to help address this stats gap. Likewise base stat buffs are half of what Incarnons do! I can tell you, the base stats buffs I get on my Gorgon Incarnon do far more for the weapon than the S#&$ty Incarnon form I never use. Of course stats will help!

On 2024-03-04 at 5:58 AM, SneakyErvin said:

unique mechanics are needed.

And unique mechanics don't mean anything if the weapon has bad stats. Among the least-used weapons in the game, most have these supposedly-important unique mechanics. Just look:

Spoiler

1. Carmine Penta, a grenade launcher which can detonate grenades manually using the alt-fire, has access to the Penta-only Tether Grenades augment, and which has double the magazine size of other Penta variants.
2. Simulor, which shoots little orbs that collect together to create AoE damage zones that suck in enemies and explode. This was once a meta weapon!
3. Snipetron, a sniper rifle.
4. Supra, a Corpus LMG with physical projectiles and access to the Supra-only Directed Convergence and Entropy Burst augments. Outclassed by its mechanically-identical variant.
5. Panthera, a gun that shoots saw blades with an alt-fire that hovers a spinning saw in front of you to use in melee range.
6. Paracyst, which is a burst-fire rifle with physical projectiles and an alt-fire that grabs enemies and pulls them towards you.
7. Mutalist Quanta, which is a machine gun with physical projectiles and an alt-fire that shoots a big orb that empowers shots that pass through it.
8. Karak Wraith, an assault rifle.
9. Sporothrix, a sniper rifle with physical projectiles that explode after a delay, with access to the Sporothrix-only Volatile Variant augment.
10. Secura Penta, the other Penta variant with the addition of a syndicate AoE proc.

The only two of these weapons which you could reasonably call "bland" are the Snipetron and the Karak Wraith, but both are mechanically identical to equally "bland" yet much more popular weapons like the Rubico Prime and Kuva Karak. Mechanics are what matter? Well they don't seem to here, do they?

On 2024-03-04 at 5:58 AM, SneakyErvin said:

Yep, which I've mentioned several times over in this thread, that incarnons for more weapons would be a good idea. I've never been against buffs, I'm against the "bring things closer" through simply stat squashing.

And such buffs "bring things closer"! Incarnons are a form of stat squishing! 🤦‍♀️

There's much more to say about this, like how Incarnons are too woefully slow to develop to be a good general solution, or how the unique mechanics added to Incarnons aren't the only thing that has made them successful, but there's really no point until you can accept that these changes are the same stat squish you say you're actually against.

On 2024-03-04 at 5:58 AM, SneakyErvin said:

What I refer to in the part you quoted here is if bland weapons stay bland through stat squashing, at which point keeping weapons would be pointless.

It's only pointless to you, because you turn your nose up at these "bland" weapons as if they're a problem. It's totally fine if the few truly-"bland" weapons in the game stay "bland". There are people that like them anyways.

On 2024-03-04 at 5:58 AM, SneakyErvin said:

Also, you again bring up that you use DE quotes. But you avoid to mention that you ignore them when it doesnt suit you. Like how I pointed out that DE according to the quote you provided are of the opinion that AoE is "fixed" in the game we play now.

Where have they said they think the AoE problem is fixed? Nowhere. With regards to the AoE and ammo changes, what they have said was to "expect more tweaks to these values in future updates" and went on to talk about further changes like bringing back self-damage. They're also very clear about their intent, here:

Quote

We’ve discussed bringing back Self Damage in previous Devstreams, but now we have some prototypes to share! The intentions of these changes are to a) keep the gameplay loop interesting and balanced, b) ensure there is some risk/reward when using high-impact AOE weapons and c) re-introduce the possibility of players doing damage to themselves but not kill their Warframe.
...
Expect a full Developer Workshop with more information on Self-Damage once we get closer to its release!

So if the AoE ammo changes totally fixed AoE, why did DE continue to talk about it? 🤔

On 2024-03-04 at 5:58 AM, SneakyErvin said:

Yet you harp on about AoE being disruptive? But you just also said that DE quotes are proof of intent.

Because it still is. Anyone that isn't wearing a blindfold can see this, and DE's intents regarding things being disruptive are clear and have been consistently applied to many different things (even disruptive visual/audio!) for many years.

Quote

We’ve reached a point where players are asking us to change these weapons, because they leave so little for others to do. 

Quote

We understand the importance of power fantasy, but overbearing abilities can make squadmates feel ineffective by seriously disrupting intended gameplay flow.

Quote

Octavia now has a volume slider so you can turn off other Octavias in Options->Audio.

Quote

Added “Reduce Teammate Visual Effects” toggle in the Display Options. Enabling this will reduce their ability and some weapon FX. 

Quote

The power to stop-time completely is quite strong - but is it cooperative when weapons are affected? Certainly with a coordinated team and well-trained Limbo, the answer is yes. But that's not always the case.

To put Limbo's Stasis in a more cooperative position, it has been changed to only stop-time for Enemies.

The same applies to their intents regarding variety of gear and gameplay:

Quote

Conversely, when a Warframe doesn’t do enough, players may simply choose a “better” frame, sacrificing personalization and diversity for efficiency.

Quote

Warframe is a game full of very powerful tactics, but problems arise when players feel ‘forced’ to use specific choices. The top 5 most popular weapons are all AoE, accounting for 47% of all weapon usage at high Mastery Rank AOE usage stats. In situations where efficiency is important, some would say you aren’t playing ‘correctly’ if you’re not utilizing these choices, which some players don’t necessarily find fun.

Quote

Not all weapons are built equal, but ideally there are several answers to each query, so that Tenno can make their own choices from a variety of options and keep things fresh. If one category of weapons outclasses all the others, or makes them feel redundant, then we as developers want to step in to make sure choice exists for the sake of fun.

Quote

We want there to be lots of options instead of one ‘perfect’ option.

Quote

If you’ve made it to this part of the Update notes, you’re well aware that a lot of the Warframe meta may shift in new directions. With the current path Catchmoon weapons are on, it was time to bring Catchmoon weapons to a more reasonable power level, while still keeping them effective.

Quote

It has quickly taken the place at the top of the usage charts - which is where it should be given its acquisition - but the degree of dominance (about 3 times more popular than anything else) is not something we feel is good for the primary weapon Arsenal options.

Quote

Riven Mods were added to incentivize end-game players to revisit old weapons and to change up their play style.

Quote

Nourish is by-far the most popular Helminth ability, so we felt it was necessary to reduce its effectiveness slightly for the Helminth version only. Our goal is not to make this ability unusable, but we want to avoid situations where it feels like “you’re playing wrong if you’re not using Nourish”.

Quote

If you hadn’t guessed it already, Carrier usage represents almost 80% of the total used Sentinels, and considering we have more than 5 unique choices this needed balancing.

Quote

We have rebalanced some Mods that players felt were not good enough, or ones that we've observed are SO good that they are considered "essential."

Quote

Masters of the Steel Path Circuit can earn these to breathe new power into a pool of old favorites. 

And so on and so forth.

Edited March 5 by PublikDomain

[PublikDomain]

23 hours ago, MirageKnight said:

On 2024-03-04 at 6:14 AM, Aruquae said:

And it’s still going to be 3 people arguing about God knows what at this point 

It’s about whether or not nuke builds ruin gameplay for at least some players.

I’d argue that yes, this is an issue for  for at least some players.

Due to a lack of proper balancing of some AOE abilities and weapons, a lot of public missions turn into competitions to see who can clear the room / map the fastest and get the biggest numbers at the expense of players with non-meta builds that just want to have fun and experience Warframe.

And at least between Sneaky and I, whether or not more equal equipment balancing would allow for a game where players can actually play together. It seems the two of us actually do agree on this idea at least in principle, though they're taking quite an issue with how I'm saying it. I've invited them to discuss this elsewhere where it might be more on topic, but they declined so here we remain. 🤷‍♀️

Edited March 5 by PublikDomain

[Merkranire]

9 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

It doesnt matter when you specifically single out two modes. That you then start to include other things as you get cornered and questioned is of no real interest when you were so very specific to begin with. You cant even back up what you mean with unbalanced. So cant really be written off as more than the misconception rooted in refusal to progress as I initially pointed out, which I pointed out before you even singled out SC and SP.

Two modes at extreme ends to start, and then the entire game in between when you keep talking about SP like it’s the end all be all and seem to forget (if you ever knew in the first place) that there’s a reason for modes like Arbitrations and Sorties even 10 years down the track. I made assumptions you even knew what was different between SP and something like Sorties or Archons, but I can’t make that assumption now because you’re so out of touch I can’t explain things to you or point out (like I have a few times now and woosh, it went over your head) what makes SP unbalanced without what I’m saying going so far over your head you’re playing a completely different game in your head than what exists in the real world and I’m left aghast at how painfully ignorant you are about simple things you can verify at this very moment that would undermine so much of what you say.

9 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

And heh, what "list of caveats in the post they made alongside"? There were patch notes with basic info how it works along with the regular feedback megathread. So what list? The "list" you refer to is a post that came long before SP released. Which was about two very different iterations from what they actually released.

“Not to be associated with the nebulous topic of “Endgame”” and “An uncomplicated way to shortcut players to higher level and tougher enemies” are still very much applicable to Steel Path back then as it is today because it is a mode that shortcuts us to high-level enemies without having to wait for a timer or anything and endgame in this particular game is so ill-defined due to the non-linearity that’s still this game’s greatest strength to this day. Steel Path is still doing the thing it was designed to do even though we got a few more options and ways to take things in, the rest of the game is still doing the thing it was designed to do, and this is made possible by the fact that we’re still always starting modless and earning ever more ways to make builds which makes the options outside of SP expanded more-so for every way we’re given to help us take more things into SP, since we can use those same options outside of SP in whatever builds we could want to make starting from the baseline.

9 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

What about the bolded part? Where does it talk anything about a singular most powerful build, where has that ever been said at all for that matter? That is really your assumption that some specific build is actually needed for SP. When in reality a multitude of builds are viable for SP, and even more if you are OK with not having the greatest of efficiency while you farm the mode. SP used to have very limited builds due to how essence was distributed. But with the change any build can practically work, it really depends on what you are actually seeking from SP. All that is needed in SP is being able to clear 1 rotation/1 acolyte, with 1 rotation being what you seem OK with elsewhere aswell. So what makes SP unbalanced then when you can achieve that goal and make use of SP with a wide variety of builds?

The singular most powerful build is an extreme example to hit your thick skull over the head with the idea that power comes with a cost, so unbalanced SP that scales infinitely high and Archons and anything that starts going higher than what modless can handle comes with a cost when you start having to make a decision between one mod for power to keep up and another mod to customise your gameplay and gear. Mix into that the idea of a full-Forma piece of kit and you tell me what filling every slot on a piece of gear with polarities does to your build variety by design since polarities becomes a specialisation system after enough of them.

What are you on about with options in SP being determined by essence?

SP used to have more limited build options because we didn’t have things like Arcanes or Galavanised and it proper squashed builds like it was meant to, and then players started complaining that, for some mysteeeeeerious reason, there wasn’t a whole lot of variety and DE gave us more ways to elevate our weakest gear (resulting in the completely expected result of elevating our strongest even further) into the mode, and those options are just as useable outside of SP for mixing into builds for content like Arbitrations, content that doesn’t sit at SP’s level but needs more than modless to do.

 

Edited March 5 by Merkranire

[Kronxito]

Can you please end this conversation? Or giving each other whatsapp/snapchat and continue in private?

Im bored of seeing this thread going on and on with walls of text that could put anyone to sleep. 

[Merkranire]

4 minutes ago, Kronxito said:

Can you please end this conversation? Or giving each other whatsapp/snapchat and continue in private?

Im bored of seeing this thread going on and on with walls of text that could put anyone to sleep. 

Still on-topic since it all ties back to why there’s such a problem with squading up with someone else who hogs the gameplay when there doesn’t need to be

Edited March 5 by Merkranire

[Kronxito]

Play solo and problem solved. Game is easy to solo. 

Or play just with your friends. 

Let the rest of the people to play whatever the f they like.

Dont u see this is a “you” problem? And please dont reply to me with a wall of text. Spoiler alert: not gonna read it. 

[Merkranire]

12 minutes ago, Kronxito said:

Play solo and problem solved. Game is easy to solo. 

Or play just with your friends. 

Let the rest of the people to play whatever the f they like.

Dont u see this is a “you” problem? And please dont reply to me with a wall of text. Spoiler alert: not gonna read it. 

🤔 Tempting since you’re gonna skim even this tiny thing anyways

But sure, let me just stick to solo like I have been for years and am a little tired of.

Oh wait! I can just jump into multiplayer and let someone else do the work while I solo watch Youtube, or play solo with these 3 other NPCs who seem to move like human beings. I could try jumping into multiplayer to play with multiple other people, but then I’m back to soloing Youtube because there’s three other heroes who already have the mission covered who’re treating multiplayer like a necessary evil.

 

Hmm. Now I’m thinking what would happen if multiplayer was invite only. Interesting thought

Edited March 5 by Merkranire

[Kronxito]

Game has had that since beginning. I really doubt that would change.  

Maybe u got some burnout. Have a break. 

Im off to sleep. Cheers. 

[Merkranire]

3 minutes ago, Kronxito said:

Game has had that since beginning. I really doubt that would change.  

Maybe u got some burnout. Have a break. 

Im off to sleep. Cheers. 

Haha. It’s just that simple, isn’t it.

See you around

[SneakyErvin]

19 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

What an absolutely worthless level of pedantry. I'll use whatever terms you'd prefer, you just let me know what they are.

So using words for their purpose is pedantry now? I'll remember that next time I plan to buy a plane ticket and ask for a car pancake to go across the pond.

19 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

And I've told you that I'm not advocating for this over and over and over and over again. You can keep repeating whatever wild accusations you'd like, but that doesn't make them true.

Yet the simulated nerfs you show are all about stat changes, since you cant show new mechanics, neither for enemies or weapons. So if you arent talking about nerfs like that, why use those gifs in the first place?

19 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

How wouldn't it? As I've explained before, Rivens have only failed to address this stats imbalance because they're so inaccessible. If they weren't so inaccessible then they would be better able to fulfill their role. For example, I can't use a Riven to fix my Paracyst's S#&$ty damage if I can't get a Riven for my Paracyst to begin with. Meanwhile when stats changes aren't tied to RNG it actually does help things out quite a lot! We have the entire history of the game to look at with our eyes and brains to see and understand this. It should be obvious! When DE buffed melee weapon damage stats, that helped melee weapons. It helped them so much it made guns feel so weak in comparison that they had to buff guns with Galvanized Mods and Gun Arcanes to try and close the "Arsenal Divide" they had created. These new items buffed primary and secondary weapon damage stats, and that helped guns. It helped them so much that DE just added Tennokai and Melee Arcanes to help address this stats gap. Likewise base stat buffs are half of what Incarnons do! I can tell you, the base stats buffs I get on my Gorgon Incarnon do far more for the weapon than the S#&$ty Incarnon form I never use. Of course stats will help!

I dont know how you can quote a thing and miss the point so completely. What part of closer do you not grasp? You just mention cases where things have gotten overbuffed, you also mention whole systems, not individual parts. That is tied to unique mechanics, so you ended up with powerful melee that also had stats to surpass ranged, then they did the same with ranged. Bringing two whole systems closer would be fine, since they'd still rely on two seperate mechanics in approaching the whole game. I'm talking about weapons vs weapons within the same class, where bland will stay bland and if a whole class is bland it wont perform well compared to one with more unique mechanics. Galv mods etc. did not help the straight up bad guns even if they were brought closer to melee. Not that it matters since it is a buff to a whole system.

And that your Gorgon might see better use out of the stats than the incarnon form could be because they've missed the mark with the Gorgon, same as a few other incarnons. That does not mean it is the rule or norm, just a #*!% up on DEs part. Just as there are incarnons that have seen no help big enough for me to use the, which isnt a rule or the norm either since others love them.

19 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

And unique mechanics don't mean anything if the weapon has bad stats. Among the least-used weapons in the game, most have these supposedly-important unique mechanics. Just look:

19 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

The only two of these weapons which you could reasonably call "bland" are the Snipetron and the Karak Wraith, but both are mechanically identical to equally "bland" yet much more popular weapons like the Rubico Prime and Kuva Karak. Mechanics are what matter? Well they don't seem to here, do they?

It's more that they have bad mechanics, which I've pointed out earlier. Also, looking through the list it seems like you dont quite catch the concept of unique mechanics. You hit the spot on penta and simulor for instance but completely miss it with Sniptron, Supra and Karak Wraith. Neither of the last 3 have any unique mechanics. Sniptron as you mention is just a sniper among snipers, Supra is a lower variant of Supra Vandal and Karak Wraith is a higher and lower variant of other Karak variants. So obviously the higher versions or other weapons within the class are more popular in comparison, since they all share the same mechanics.

It's the same reason why just buffing penta wouldnt help it, since it has a bad mechanic within the class.

19 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

And such buffs "bring things closer"! Incarnons are a form of stat squishing! 🤦‍♀️

There's much more to say about this, like how Incarnons are too woefully slow to develop to be a good general solution, or how the unique mechanics added to Incarnons aren't the only thing that has made them successful, but there's really no point until you can accept that these changes are the same stat squish you say you're actually against.

While also adding new mechanics.

And you think going through and buffing and nerfing every weapon is faster? And no one has said that only the unique mechanics have made them successful, I'm saying just the stats would not have helped the majority. Furis, Braton, Boar, Strun, Burston, Torid, Dual Toxocyst, Lex, Latron, Lato etc. would not have seen much use without their new forms, since AoE weapons of the Tenet and Kuva kind still exsists along with non-AoE Tenet and Kuva weapons that come with innate elements. And I'm not against stat squishing in combination with something else, which was pretty clear the first time I said they should go with the incarnon treatment if they are to buff lower weapons. And the incarnon treatment is in the end a combination of both. Which I also pointed out by saying earlier that it would give something to those that want to use the base form with higher stats and those that seek something new alike. But you likely forgot that, or left that out of the context, or forgot that because you left it out of the context in an earlier quote.

19 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

It's only pointless to you, because you turn your nose up at these "bland" weapons as if they're a problem. It's totally fine if the few truly-"bland" weapons in the game stay "bland". There are people that like them anyways.

And again you missed the point and forgot the old context (since you never included it). This is about your stat squash so everything is nearly the same, at which point keeping weapon A, B and C that are all bland would be pointless if one of them have a more favorable spread, since they all do exactly the same otherwise. Bring Karak, Braton and Dera closer and say they end up with IPS at 15/30/55, 33/33/33 and 15/60/25 they'd all do the same thing but the Karak would have more favorable stats. You would practically lock a weapon slot or two to alternate skins at that point, alternate skins that require the same upgade investments for no actual gain compared to the item you keep and use.

I dont know about others, but I wouldnt be really incentiviced to invest 3x the forma and catalysts on something just to unlock what would effectively be different skins only.

20 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

Where have they said they think the AoE problem is fixed? Nowhere. With regards to the AoE and ammo changes, what they have said was to "expect more tweaks to these values in future updates" and went on to talk about further changes like bringing back self-damage. They're also very clear about their intent, here:

20 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

So if the AoE ammo changes totally fixed AoE, why did DE continue to talk about it? 🤔

So you havent actually listened to their reason as to why self damage should return then? It is in order so AoE QoL isnt locked behind a long long login day requirement. Self damage will replace knockdown and stagger. So it isnt to further limit AoE, it is to replace one penalty with another.

20 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

Because it still is. Anyone that isn't wearing a blindfold can see this, and DE's intents regarding things being disruptive are clear and have been consistently applied to many different things (even disruptive visual/audio!) for many years.

Not according to the patch notes and what we've heard since there and have had added to the game in addition to that.

20 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

The same applies to their intents regarding variety of gear and gameplay:

20 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

And so on and so forth.

Yes and? I really dont see your point at all in lining up those quotes.

The fun part is that even DE sees that situations that they've created require (important is their word) efficiency, but that some might not find that fun. And that is all OK, that doesnt mean everyone should be brought down to that level of "fun" by having efficiency (which DE understands is required and points that out) nerfed. It's more that both parties should understand that they joined a PuG at that point, so you shouldnt yell at people for not bringing an efficient loadout, nor should people yell at people for not playing their "fun" way.

And if AoE damage was the massively disruptive issue you and others claim, it would be near impossible to play melee in the game while in groups, but for some reason that isnt the case. It would also be troublesome to stack/cap things like Plunder etc. But somehow I have no problem gaining combo or reach max potential on my Plunder if I play Hydroid. The problem I tend to run into are people with pointless CC locking down enemies way off behind walls and so on, or forcing some buff on me that I absolutely do not want.

[SneakyErvin]

15 hours ago, Merkranire said:

seem to forget (if you ever knew in the first place) that there’s a reason for modes like Arbitrations and Sorties even 10 years down the track.

Nope. Arbis are still useful. But I also tend to run those aslong as I run SP endless, so no reason to mod seperately for it. Or did you forget or didnt know that arbis are only endless? Sorties I dont care about, so go play sorties all you like without a worry that I'll stumble in and ruin your fun by not changing my build for a 5 minute activity.

15 hours ago, Merkranire said:

“Not to be associated with the nebulous topic of “Endgame”” and “An uncomplicated way to shortcut players to higher level and tougher enemies”

Those things are not in relation to what went live. If you claim they are, please quote the source from release day. In reality from the original talk (that never went live) we were also supposed to have a T1 SP and a T2 SP with different starting levels.

15 hours ago, Merkranire said:

so unbalanced SP that scales infinitely high

But that is no more a requirement to play than going to the same levels on the SC. So moot point. C rota (if the mode has it), that is the norm, that is what DE expects a player to be able to handle. That doesnt mean you need to do it in the most efficienct way, just that you should be able to do it.

15 hours ago, Merkranire said:

Mix into that the idea of a full-Forma piece of kit and you tell me what filling every slot on a piece of gear with polarities does to your build variety by design since polarities becomes a specialisation system after enough of them.

The same as not doing it since both approaches lock out certain build options. Seriously, how do you not see that? Not to mention you arent forced to only own 1 mod of each, so you can (like most people likely) use several different types of ranks of a mod if you want to build for something specific in your way.

15 hours ago, Merkranire said:

What are you on about with options in SP being determined by essence?

SP used to have more limited build options because we didn’t have things like Arcanes or Galavanised and it proper squashed builds like it was meant to, and then players started complaining that, for some mysteeeeeerious reason, there wasn’t a whole lot of variety and DE gave us more ways to elevate our weakest gear (resulting in the completely expected result of elevating our strongest even further) into the mode, and those options are just as useable outside of SP for mixing into builds for content like Arbitrations, content that doesn’t sit at SP’s level but needs more than modless to do.

If you dont know that then you didnt set foot in SP early on and probably only started doing it after Acolytes were added. Old SP required you to have an absurd KPM to gain essence since it was all based around replacing as many mobs on the map as fast as possible with the chance for an Eximus spawn, the thing that had a chance to drop essence. With the addition of acolytes your KPM practically doesnt matter for essence since they spawn in intervals with a very slight impact from KPM (in survival atleast). This result in very very off meta builds gaining more essence per minute now unbuffed/unboosted compared to one out of the very few old SP meta picks with buffs and boosters active. In addition to that you are rewarded with essence from the first rotation and onward as opposed to seeing drops at a decent only after 45 minutes or so during old SP, with the exception of Odin. So no longer a need to stay for more than a rotation if that is all you can handle, while still maintaining a higher yield of essence unbuffed/unboosted compared to old SP with buffs and boosts.

To put it in perspecive in numbers. An hour of survival in current SP should award you with 24 essence or 12 acolytes since 1 should spawn atleast each 5 minutes and they drop 2 essence each. In old SP you might see sporadic essence drops as you went on, but in order to gain something close to 24 essence you'd need smeeta luck and a booster active while playing for 70 minutes or so. Which used to avarage out to 30-32 essence or so, less if your smeeta was grumpy. You can do the rest of the math yourself for current SP by adding booster and potential smeeta if that if your cup of pet.

And it wasnt due to not having access to those mods and arcanes, it was due to how the reward distribution was set up. And moving over to acolytes and removing the need to stay for long periods resulted in a vast expansion of useful methods to build. I for instance went from Khora to running around whacking enemies over the head with my Silva & Aegis Prime on Frost Prime and then Lavos when he released. And that was for around 6 months until they eventually also added galv mods and arcanes to the game.

[Merkranire]

7 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Nope. Arbis are still useful. But I also tend to run those aslong as I run SP endless, so no reason to mod seperately for it. Or did you forget or didnt know that arbis are only endless? Sorties I dont care about, so go play sorties all you like without a worry that I'll stumble in and ruin your fun by not changing my build for a 5 minute activity.

Arbitrations are useful for more than their rewards, they’re useful for being a place to play in different ways that content allows and experiencing different scenarios (like one life or boosts to builds that may not normally cut it) than what other content would support, which is what I’m doing until you stumble in built to go endlessly far for endlessly long when sanity dictates that we only need to go a few rounds for like 20 minutes or so. Just because a mission can go endlessly long does not mean it’s no longer worth building for the content, it’s not like endless is some kind of “The mission’s suddenly designed around level cap” rule, the enemies and mechanics are still designed for an expected range of levels

7 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

But that is no more a requirement to play than going to the same levels on the SC. So moot point. C rota (if the mode has it), that is the norm, that is what DE expects a player to be able to handle. That doesnt mean you need to do it in the most efficienct way, just that you should be able to do it.

Sigh.

7 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

The same as not doing it since both approaches lock out certain build options. Seriously, how do you not see that? Not to mention you arent forced to only own 1 mod of each, so you can (like most people likely) use several different types of ranks of a mod if you want to build for something specific in your way.

I see that you can’t specialise unless you’re full-forma’d, yes. And that no-forma would mean you can only fit so much on, so the middle ground of somewhat-half-forma’d is where you get the most variety. I’ve removed Forma after installing one too many in order to broaden my build options, at cost to super specialised builds yes, but the variety of builds and ways to play it opened up for a game that doesn’t need super specialised building for most of it was well worth it. Also Umbral polarities are treated with great caution due to what they are

I’m not sure why you’re bringing up half-ranks, they’re a nightmare to work with and design around so I don’t bother. I guess you can juggle them to get partial effects, which I assume would only work better if a piece of gear isn’t full-forma’d, but personally I found that just max-ranking for full effect and then figuring out how to build to keep a mod I’d want and what content would allow me to do so far less of a headache

Edited March 6 by Merkranire

[SneakyErvin]

15 hours ago, Merkranire said:

Arbitrations are useful for more than their rewards, they’re useful for being a place to play in different ways that content allows and experiencing different scenarios (like one life or boosts to builds that may not normally cut it) than what other content would support, which is what I’m doing until you stumble in built to go endlessly far for endlessly long when sanity dictates that we only need to go a few rounds for like 20 minutes or so. Just because a mission can go endlessly long does not mean it’s no longer worth building for the content, it’s not like endless is some kind of “The mission’s suddenly designed around level cap” rule, the enemies and mechanics are still designed for an expected range of levels

That is very subjective and based on personal experience only. For me, it isnt true. Like I said earlier, I enjoy the farm. If there is nothing left to farm and I want to play similar content I pick that other similar content that still has something to farm. Also as pointed out earlier regarding arbis, just staying 20 min is a waste for me, since it is on a 1h CD with a random selection of modes. So if a good and enjoyable mode pops I'll make sure to stay until I feel I need a break, since the next reset may offer a mode I'm not that fond of, or versus an enemy I dont feel like fighting. Also not sure why you think this is about levelcap, or where you got the idea from that it is even hinted. There is a vast difference having a build that can handle 20 min and 1 or 2 hours. And 2h is not even close to level cap aside from a very few select modes.

Claiming others being insane because they dont share your view of fun is silly. Sanity would be doing what the individual enjoys, insanity would be the individual putting itself through what it doesnt enjoy in the case of a hobby.

15 hours ago, Merkranire said:

Sigh.

Sigh all you want. It doesnt make your statement less false.

15 hours ago, Merkranire said:

I see that you can’t specialise unless you’re full-forma’d, yes. And that no-forma would mean you can only fit so much on, so the middle ground of somewhat-half-forma’d is where you get the most variety. I’ve removed Forma after installing one too many in order to broaden my build options, at cost to super specialised builds yes, but the variety of builds and ways to play it opened up for a game that doesn’t need super specialised building for most of it was well worth it. Also Umbral polarities are treated with great caution due to what they are

I’m not sure why you’re bringing up half-ranks, they’re a nightmare to work with and design around so I don’t bother. I guess you can juggle them to get partial effects, which I assume would only work better if a piece of gear isn’t full-forma’d, but personally I found that just max-ranking for full effect and then figuring out how to build to keep a mod I’d want and what content would allow me to do so far less of a headache

You as in me you or you as in people in general? Eitherway you couldnt be more wrong. Since specialization, min-max etc. depends highly on the frame or weapon in question, there is no must to go with full formas. And no, half formad does not guarantee more variety, that is a baseless assumption since it fully depends on the item in question. We also lack a variety in modding based on different polarities. So you are most often able to swap in low max cap mods of a different polarity in a high formad build if you "build" for lower content. Looking at some of my own frames for instance, I can replace an Umbra or two and have 16-32 capacity freed up on whatever I like, while most low mods will cost 1-2 capacity more than the most expensive properly polarized that are currently part of the build, that is if those low mods only have the option to go into those unmatching polarities. We are in the end not looking at all mods suddenly going into unmatched polarities just because we swap to a different build.

And why you treat Umbra with great caution I dont really see the point of. Are you that starved on simaris rep that you cant afford alternate versions, so instead of running Intensify in a low build you instead run UI at a far lower rank? Oh right, no you, the spokes person for building for content refuse to use the biggest options for build freedom, that of partially ranked mods. Since they are a "nightmare to work with" eh? 👀❔

No wonder you cant see that SP allows for wide build variety when you refuse to use large parts of a full system. You refusing to use partially ranked mods is as if you played an RPG and either maxed skills/talents or didnt use them at all. You've honestly never sat there in WF and thought "Hmm I could use that strength from Transient, but I also need the duration that I would then lose... Oh hey Blind Rage at partial ranks offers the same strength, for a lower cost and it reduced efficiency instead of duration, which I can actually spare in this build!"? Or for any other mod for that matter where you only need parts of the stats and there is no other option?

[PublikDomain]

On 2024-03-06 at 6:37 AM, SneakyErvin said:

So using words for their purpose is pedantry now? I'll remember that next time I plan to buy a plane ticket and ask for a car pancake to go across the pond.

Yes, you're getting stuck on useless details like the specific words being used and not what's being said. Why would you buy a plane ticket to cross a pond? We need to drop everything and argue about what the word "pond" means because this is so important that we use words for their purpose. There's no way "across the pond" could mean anything other than traveling to the other side of a small body of still water. Completely worthless.

On 2024-03-06 at 6:37 AM, SneakyErvin said:

Yet the simulated nerfs you show are all about stat changes, since you cant show new mechanics, neither for enemies or weapons. So if you arent talking about nerfs like that, why use those gifs in the first place?

You continue to insinuate that I want everything to be "bland and the same". I have never said this. I have refuted this over and over again. You're just making stuff up. The gifs I shared were in response to another insinuation of yours that the balancing you think I'm suggesting "would just be walls of health doing little in return". Which I was refuting, since you were just making stuff up. And in those gifs you can clearly see the same kinds of sub-second TTKs and one-shots we have today. Edit: And just for the inevitable "well what's the point then", the point is that all the other stuff can enjoy a similar level of performance. Turrets, explosive barrels, pets, Amps, abilities, etc.

On 2024-03-06 at 6:37 AM, SneakyErvin said:

I'm talking about weapons vs weapons within the same class

And I'm not. I'm talking about...

On 2024-03-06 at 6:37 AM, SneakyErvin said:

whole systems, not individual parts.

That's why, like you say, I keep mentioning it. Weird, right? It's almost like it's the thing I'm talking about. Which is why, as I've said before, I don't care about this "blandness" you're complaining about. It's a non-issue. I don't care. Nothing needs to become any more or less "bland", and the weapons you personally think are currently "bland" can remain just how they are...

On 2024-03-06 at 6:37 AM, SneakyErvin said:

since others love them.

See? You're so close to getting it! Just gotta connect those few remaining dots.

On 2024-03-06 at 6:37 AM, SneakyErvin said:

And you think going through and buffing and nerfing every weapon is faster?

No, but you do?

On 2024-03-06 at 6:37 AM, SneakyErvin said:

I said they should go with the incarnon treatment if they are to buff lower weapons.

Not only is it only wrong when I say it, in this case it's not even something I've said! Wild.

On 2024-03-06 at 6:37 AM, SneakyErvin said:

Yes and? I really dont see your point at all in lining up those quotes.

That DE has shared their consistent belief that no, being disruptive is bad, and that yes, having a more level playing field is good. Duh.

Edited March 7 by PublikDomain

[(PSN)AyinDygra]

For me, there is no reconciling these concepts:

everything being "worth using", nothing being "the best", nothing stronger than the rest...
with...
new things being worth obtaining, progressing character strength, reasons to play...

If everything is basically at the same power level, there is never a reason to go get anything that comes with any updates, at lesat, if they don't have a unique gameplay feature. IF they HAVE unique gameplay features, there WILL be some features that are stronger than others, and even in a landscape where they're all "balanced" and at the same power level, some will have distinct advantages over others. The "problem" persists, but now there is less progression, less reason to go get new things, less reason to play, for those who play for those reasons.

Clearly, this game is built upon a foundation of collecting components and building every new thing that is released. That's the gameplay loop of Warframe. From basic blueprints to Primes, it all boils down to that loop. Given the separation of gear into different mastery ranks, they consider weapons on higher tiers of required mastery to be worthy of higher stats. That's the basic level of progression one can expect from Warframe. This DOES lead to "mastery fodder" just thrown in there so we have enough gear to use to gain all the mastery ranks. In this, they have created a situation wherein, some people want their niche low MR weapons to be useful at higher levels, to maintain a certain play style that those niche weapons allow. Without buffing those weaker, low MR weapons, they must either create new higher MR ranked versions, or give them the new Incarnon treatment.

If, as has been proposed, all weapons are balanced to be useful in all content, essentially (nothing better than the rest), given the current selection of weapons spread across the mastery ranks, there are a TON of weapons that just become carbon copies of each other that just don't need to exist anymore... (and removing them would be removing sources of Mastery Rank, and how does one do this for people who already leveled those now-removed weapons? OR do they go about making each weapon subtly different, granting them different gameplay features... the process one goes through to create wholly new weapons they could otherwise be working on.)

This is why the whole concept of making everything balanced and useful falls flat for me. No amount of discussion changes that, because I don't value a game world where that scenario dominates. It just sounds horribly boring to me, while having all those "equal" options, seems to excite someone who likes nothing to be stronger than anything else. It's not a matter of right or wrong, but preferences. I prefer Warframe as it has, and always seems to have been, while I despise the style of Destiny, and its everything is balanced" way of doing things (Destiny was worse, in that PVP nerfs and buffs impacted PVE content... at least Conclave is separated in Warframe.)

 

[PublikDomain]

57 minutes ago, (PSN)AyinDygra said:

For me, there is no reconciling these concepts:

everything being "worth using", nothing being "the best", nothing stronger than the rest...
with...
new things being worth obtaining, progressing character strength, reasons to play...

Of course there's reconciling these concepts! You just have to be open-minded and be willing to compromise a little.

Some of these things aren't even in conflict! For example, "new things" are a subset of "everything": if everything is worth using, then all the new things are worth using too. That's one down.

And it's not that "nothing can be the best", it's that the best shouldn't be so much better than everything else that it makes things not worth obtaining or playing with. At least, that's what I've been saying! Because if something is objectively "the best", then how is anything else worth obtaining or playing with? What progression of character strength is left when you've already obtained the most you can? Likewise, if nothing is too much stronger than the rest then that means nothing is too much weaker than the rest either. And if nothing is too weak, there's no reason not to obtain it or play with it. There's two down.

As for the progressing character strength, well, isn't that at odds with your concepts of "new things being worth obtaining" and "reasons to play"? After all, if something new doesn't make your character stronger then how is it worth obtaining? What you're actually getting when you hold on to your concept of "progressing character strength" is that only some new things are worth obtaining, and there are no reasons to play with all the things that don't progress your character strength. Those are the concepts that in conflict! But this can be reconciled too, because there are other ways to progress your character strength than just some raw numbers that'll inevitably be attenuated away anyways. You can progress by gaining access to more tools and mechanics. You can find more ways to combine said tools and mechanics. You can improve your game knowledge and mechanical skill. You can progress narratively as you take on larger and more important foes with greater things at stake. Making your number go up is only one way to get stronger, and it's one that comes at the cost of new things being worth obtaining and having reasons to play which you claim to care about.

1 hour ago, (PSN)AyinDygra said:

If everything is basically at the same power level, there is never a reason to go get anything that comes with any updates, at lesat, if they don't have a unique gameplay feature.

1 hour ago, (PSN)AyinDygra said:

If, as has been proposed, all weapons are balanced to be useful in all content, essentially (nothing better than the rest), given the current selection of weapons spread across the mastery ranks, there are a TON of weapons that just become carbon copies of each other that just don't need to exist anymore...

And yet this is already the case today. There's never a reason to go get anything that comes with any updates if it's not as good or better than the current best or has some equally-good gameplay feature. If the new coin fists from Dante Unbound aren't amazing, what reason will you have to get them? Just as disposable fodder for Mastery? Then those weapons "just don't need to exist anymore" either, do they? None of you are using the Carmine Penta, so why did DE spend time making it? None of you are using the Acrid, why does it still exist? Just delete it and save a few MB on the install, right? You'd never even notice they were gone. These things you dislike are already the status quo.

[MirageKnight]

49 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

You just have to be open-minded and be willing to compromise a little.

People that don’t see a problem with power creep and nuke abilities will never compromise due to a sense of entitlement and the need to feel superior.

 

That said, thanks to you and Merk for being voices of reason in this discussion despite some vocal and stubborn opposition.

[(PSN)AyinDygra]

*sigh*