Feedback Gathering Eclipse Feedback Megathread

[psychotopia]

Toggle with it brightening or darkenening the area visual as well would be nice

 

[Darkbring]

tap hold toggle

[Armedlion02TTV]

I personally think eclipse should be made into a toggle a d just remove the lighting requirement all together and for helminth you can simply halve the buffs it provides just like you did for Roar when its helminthed

[closetojack]

REWORK IDEA - A way to make Eclipse more active while giving Mirage more control and reliability
When you press Eclipse, Mirage instantly gains her full Damage Reduction value for 8 seconds (scales with duration), but once that duration expires the DR will slowly decrease over time down to a minimum of 50%. Even when the ability reaches the minimum it does not turn off.*

Pressing the ability button again at any point will get rid of the Damage Reduction entirely and replace it with the Damage Bonus, which will also retain its full effect for 8 seconds (scales with duration), and then also slowly decrease over time down to a minimum of 50%. It also does not turn off.

This will ensure Mirage has to stay active with to retain her Damage Reduction or Damage Bonus, but also gives her control and reliability on those effects. On less demanding content you can be more relaxed with your inputs, which on higher levels you might want to switch more often for high damage burst windows or for consistent survivability.

Regardless of how you're playing, you will almost ALWAYS have some amount of DR or DMG bonus, but you have to keep using the ability to keep its max potential.

*You can hold the ability key to turn it off entirely should you desire

FLAIR (OPTIONAL):
Mirage performs a quick cast animation during every switch -- one for dmg bonus, and a different one for DR. The animation does not lock her in place anymore.

REASONING:
The 8 seconds duration might seem low, but this is just an idea to ensure you need to build some Duration as well as Strength for a more comfy build, though you have the option to go full Strength if you want absurdly high burst damage windows and you're fine with that. You'd be switching back and forth a lot and the different animations would help you remember which mode you're in during gameplay.

As for Helminth, this would help ensure whatever frame you put it on requires Strength + Duration, and has a reasonable energy economy because of the need to constantly use the ability to refresh the buffs, so not everyone would be a good fit. This fixes the potential balance problem that simply changing the mechanic to a "Tap/Hold" would cause.

Finally, I am assuming some numbers tweaks to Mirage's absurdly high damage output, especially with how easy it is to get more Strength nowadays. Number tweaks aside though, he foundation of the idea is there.

EDIT (something I forgot to mention):
You might notice that in this idea there is the option to simply double tap the ability button to switch forms twice and just stay in whichever mode you want. I consider this a good thing. You need to spend energy (and a very small portion of real life effort and time) to retain your buff at full power, which you should be allowed to do if you have enough energy to sustain it -- or if you happen to need one more than the other at any given point.

BUT I believe this would only be necessary if you're using poorly modded weaponry or playing at very high Steel Path levels (perhaps a Circuit run with sub optimal weapons). Most weapons can already handle content and Mirage's numbers are absurdly high. Keep in mind you'd keep your full power buff for at least 8 seconds (+ modded duration) and then it would SLOWLY decrease, not instantly.

This is also a way to ensure the Helminth variant isn't too crazy. You can put this in another frame, but they'd need Strength to see good benefits, Duration to keep the buff for longer, and Efficiency to be able to tap or double-tap as needed. If you can find a way for another frame to do that, sure, why not. I just designed the ability very busy on purpose because it's made FOR MIRAGE, so it doesn't fit other frames' playstyles on purpose.

Edited January 29 by closetojack
I forgot to clear up a part of my idea but that might have looked like an oversight. I did think about it, but forgot to explain this part.

[Zaros_the_God]

Hello, please make be toggle and for helminth version had 200% damage hard cap.

[Outfoxer]

With the theming of Mirage as a performer/Harlequin, making Eclipse (probably to be renamed with this sort of idea) interface with unclear or unreliable level lighting at the expense of something both reliable and flavorful seems like shorting her something more interesting mechanically.

Wherever you are standing at the time of casting creates an obvious and clear spotlight/stagelight. Standing in the light, you are 'the protagonist/hero' so you thematically gain a damage boost. Perhaps for daring to hold the spotlight and opening yourself to possible damage, the bonus can scale higher. This scaling is something I would remove from the Helminth version. The radius of the spotlight should remain static and modest, 5-8 meters, to avoid creating issues with modded power range. Allies only benefit from the spotlight (specifically the spotlight) at a reduced capacity with an augment.
In a radius that is modifiable with power range, you are the 'unseen stagehand' or 'background character', so you gain damage reduction or ideally pseudo-invisibility, akin to Wisp's passive.

This does lose functionality in that these buffs do not travel with you through the level. It could be made a channel/duration, where in a large radius around you aforementioned spotlights appear and disappear within the moddable radius. This makes invisibility interesting, where if you want the invisibility for say a spy mission, needing to avoid the spotlight makes for more interesting and slightly less direct traversal.

You can do interesting stuff with the idea. Faint ethereal clapping or cheering when you are standing in the spotlight as though in center stage, as an audio cue of having the damage buff.

Just a few ideas with the concept.
 

Edited January 27 by Outfoxer

[MantisCore]

I might be in the minority but personally I would honestly prefer to see this ability replaced in its entirety. It is powerful but boring. The unreliability is the only thing that makes it interesting at the moment. Of course, if it was replaced, Mirage's other stats might have to be rebalanced to compensate.

[PookieNumnums]

Late, but here is an idea.

If you have hall of mirrors active the mirrors should "absorb light" (blah blah using the photons to create the 'mirages'/illusions/holograms) and should trigger the defensive aspect of the ability when eclipse is cast. (or if you cast it within x seconds of triggering the ability)

If you are within range of her second ability's jewels or have prism active (or cast eclipse within x seconds of using the abilities) it should trigger the damage aspect of the ability.

 

For helminth'd version, when using eclipse within x seconds of casting the warframes 1st ability you get the damage resist, and within x seconds of using the warframes 2nd ability you get the damage buff.  Suggested at maybe 90% effectiveness but for 1/3rd the duration. Limiting the duration over the effectiveness is better imo. Considering its base cost to cast, na'mean?  

- this is an interesting idea imo because the player could then bind elipse to the 1st or 2nd slot to automatically trigger the buff they want if theyre not interested in having BOTH options available. 

 

 

ALTERNATIVELY

 

you could simply have the ability start out as a weak damage buff and high defensive buff, and the stats reverse as the timer counts down until such that at the last second the damage buff is the highest and the defensive buff is the weakest. 

 

 

i prefer the first suggestion though since it would allow CHOICE. 

 

 

[PookieNumnums]

4 minutes ago, MantisCore said:

I might be in the minority but personally I would honestly prefer to see this ability replaced in its entirety. It is powerful but boring. The unreliability is the only thing that makes it interesting at the moment. Of course, if it was replaced, Mirage's other stats might have to be rebalanced to compensate.

its greatest strength in what it can do for other frames allowing certain builds to really shine that otherwise couldnt 

[phantasmalWordsmith]

I think Eclispe has been needing a change for a very long time, even before Helminth entered the Conversation, but I'm glad we're having it now at least.

Personally, I want the Change approach.

• I - personally - never use it on Helminth cause (1) Roar is right there and far more reliable (2) I don't enjoy using "number go up" abilities like Roar and Eclispe cause they're just kinda... Boring? Like I've played for a hot minute now, I'm past that phase where I just want bigger numbers, I wanna do more... Interesting stuff?
• Having access to controllable pair of buffs makes it a way more interesting ability to me cause I can think of quite a few Warframes that could do with just a bit more survivability to help them prosper at higher levels - Mirage included - especially since Overguard makes a lot of Crowd Control dependent Warframes a harder sell. I realise wanting more ready access to the damage resistance very much means I'm not in the majority.
• I think being able to toggle between the light and dark bonuses fits Mirage quite well - Hall of Mirrors and Prism are both described as the manipulation of light, so if Mirage can bend Light at will couldn't she naturally darken and brighten the light on herself anyway?

So here's my take

Let Mirage toggle herself between Light and Dark modes.

Could do it like, you cast it once and get the buff dependent on your surrounding light. Cast again during the duration to switch it.

Or you could have it so that you Tap the key once to get Dark Mode, Hold to get Light Mode, its already Recastable so you can switch between without much trouble except the cost of Energy. Or vice versa but people can tweak that to their liking.

And then when its Helminth'd in to other Warframes, they get the current version of the ability where it depends on lighting - cause other Warframes don't have Mirage's Light Manipulation abilities so they're completely reliant on the ambient light. It makes sense from a Lore perspective, it means there's less need for a grand overhaul, and shouldn't disrupt its current relationship with Helminth. 

You could also do the thing where it just has a diminished strength or duration, and that would knock it down a few pegs on the Helminth tier list, but I think that'd be kinda boring and wouldn't go down well.

---

However, I do wanna also throw out this very wildcard idea with the full knowledge that there's bound to be some very important and good reasons as to why this is NOT a good idea but I want to throw it out there anyway - change Mirage's Helminth ability from Eclispe to Sleight of Hand. Cause if we're already on idea that Roar serves the role as a catch all damage boost, and Eclispe is too unreliable to be able to reap the full flexible benefits of it, then why bother?

And then you can change Eclispe to have a toggle so that she gets the control she deserves for it.

 

 

[phalcaefus]

Sounds pretty ballin' to me

[PookieNumnums]

6 minutes ago, phantasmalWordsmith said:

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I think Eclispe has been needing a change for a very long time, even before Helminth entered the Conversation, but I'm glad we're having it now at least.

Personally, I want the Change approach.

• I - personally - never use it on Helminth cause (1) Roar is right there and far more reliable (2) I don't enjoy using "number go up" abilities like Roar and Eclispe cause they're just kinda... Boring? Like I've played for a hot minute now, I'm past that phase where I just want bigger numbers, I wanna do more... Interesting stuff?
• Having access to controllable pair of buffs makes it a way more interesting ability to me cause I can think of quite a few Warframes that could do with just a bit more survivability to help them prosper at higher levels - Mirage included - especially since Overguard makes a lot of Crowd Control dependent Warframes a harder sell. I realise wanting more ready access to the damage resistance very much means I'm not in the majority.
• I think being able to toggle between the light and dark bonuses fits Mirage quite well - Hall of Mirrors and Prism are both described as the manipulation of light, so if Mirage can bend Light at will couldn't she naturally darken and brighten the light on herself anyway?

So here's my take

Let Mirage toggle herself between Light and Dark modes.

Could do it like, you cast it once and get the buff dependent on your surrounding light. Cast again during the duration to switch it.

Or you could have it so that you Tap the key once to get Dark Mode, Hold to get Light Mode, its already Recastable so you can switch between without much trouble except the cost of Energy. Or vice versa but people can tweak that to their liking.

And then when its Helminth'd in to other Warframes, they get the current version of the ability where it depends on lighting - cause other Warframes don't have Mirage's Light Manipulation abilities so they're completely reliant on the ambient light. It makes sense from a Lore perspective, it means there's less need for a grand overhaul, and shouldn't disrupt its current relationship with Helminth. 

You could also do the thing where it just has a diminished strength or duration, and that would knock it down a few pegs on the Helminth tier list, but I think that'd be kinda boring and wouldn't go down well.

---

However, I do wanna also throw out this very wildcard idea with the full knowledge that there's bound to be some very important and good reasons as to why this is NOT a good idea but I want to throw it out there anyway - change Mirage's Helminth ability from Eclispe to Sleight of Hand. Cause if we're already on idea that Roar serves the role as a catch all damage boost, and Eclispe is too unreliable to be able to reap the full flexible benefits of it, then why bother?

And then you can change Eclispe to have a toggle so that she gets the control she deserves for it.

 

 

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eclipse is better than roar in some situations.  not even some. several. 

[matt11mz]

After thinking more on it, here's my more in-depth take on it:

Option A: Give Eclipse a soft rework:

• Eclipse is still going to be a toggle, but there's more meat to it.
• The lighting dependency remains, but the buff can be swapped on command. For Lunar mode, darkness is the 75%-25% DR range, and light is 24%-0%. Solar is 200%-50% light, 49%-0% dark. Helminth Solar is 150%-15% light, 14-0% dark.
• Just like how Chromatic Blade uses emmissives for the elemental strength, let lighting elements on the frame affect the baseline values. The brighter the frame glows, the higher the light value, the more shadowy the frame, the higher the dark value. Something like Ash with a Tenebrous ephemera (Sentient unlight) has more of a darkness boost while the particularly glowy Revenant paired with Vengeful Flame would have probably the highest lighting bonus. Basic lights wouldn't count, since all frames and accessories have at least some glowy bits. and things like Lavos's fluid wouldn't count since the chemicals don't glow.

Option B: Keep Eclipse the same, but let you recast to lock the level in at the cost of channeled energy drain until toggled again or Eclipse ends. the frame visually emits a shadowy aura when sustaining darkness or a bright glow for sustaining light.

Option C: Make Eclipse a sort of semi toggle with active investment:

1. Tap to cast becomes hold to cast, but has no other effect on the ability.
2. Tap now cycles solar and Lunar attunement for the next component.
3. Hold cast wile active to channel energy to produce shadow for Lunar Eclipse attunement, and light for Solar Eclipse attunement. After a short delay, this attunement decays over time in the opposite conditions, but boosts its positive conditions. Boosting past max lengthens the delay up to remaining Eclipse duration.

[Whtes]

Yeah, and making it work this way (or similar) is way more interesting than just slapping some tap/hold mechanic on it.

[Borken69]

What if it was based on your energy color, with a gradiant? Locks you into the effect per mission, but you can choose what you want to do with the skill. Would need a UI element to see its effect when picking colors.

[Tabvee]

As a Mirage Main with almost 40% usage rate, I have never once paid mind to the buff im getting from Eclipse due to its incredible unreliability, and just accept whatever it is that I happen to be getting. Fixing certain locations to be more visually discernable would be a good idea, but it would do nothing to fix the fact that the number changes constantly while walking which is what makes it unreliable. 
Making the ability more reliable would mean that its something I would actually think about. A toggle, or a tap/hold would be perfect for this, "Do I want a damage buff right now? Do I want protection right now?" would be a good step to increasing the amount of interesting decision making when playing as Mirage. Eclipse is of course an incredibly strong damage buff, and a pretty good protection ability. My personal suggestion for the Helminth version of the ability would be to keep the current diminished stats it has (maybe raise the max DR to 80%?), but make it so that you can only get one buff depending on your energy color, a bright energy color being Light/Damage Buff, a dim energy color being Dark/Protection.

[Xaiken-EN-]

+1 for Tap/Hold Toggle

[Outfoxer]

10 minutes ago, Whtes said:

Yeah, and making it work this way (or similar) is way more interesting than just slapping some tap/hold mechanic on it.

I think the toggle is just uninteresting, and as Pablo said, the ability would need a nerf in the Helminth that's just numbers. I've never felt that Eclipse worked (well, really at all) on Mirage, because I never felt like damage reduction made sense on her. She seems like a Gyre, lots of damage for weapons. Being a glass cannon just fits.
The spotlight idea allows for new ability synergies. Prism going through the spotlight gets supercharged or sends or significantly spikes in damage as it passes through the spotlight, things like that.

[Kancelas]

Tap/Hold is the simplest answer and therefore the right one. 

 

[skull755]

I really like the idea of giving mirage the ability to make zones of light/shadow to give her more control without buffing the helminth but instead of having them randomly made by eclipse have it instead be made by slight of hand, make slight of hand tap/hold and make a radius of light/shadow at the cast point as i feel it would fit the ability better, it would give her better control without buffing the helminth while also give mirage some better ability synergy then the little grenades that dont do much.

But on top of that i think eclipse should have its minimum buffs increased as right now being able to only get a 1% damage/defense buff can make the ability very inconsistent, increasing the minimum buff to something like 25% damage/defense would make the buff more reliable without breaking it.

Something else you could do is give the player a reduced version of the opposite buff so while the player has a 200% damage buff they would still receive a 25% damage reduction buff and while the the player is at 75% damage reduction they still get a 50% damage buff, this would make the ability more reliable and players would be more likely to use the defense buff as right now most players exclusively use the damage buff, though admittedly this might be better suited for an augment mod as it might be a bit much for the base ability.

[crimsonspartan1]

Only issue i'd see for the tap / hold solution would be that 90% of people would specifically use the damage buff and the damage reduction side of the ability would mostly end up being irrelevant unless people decide to swap into it for whatever reason (like activating it momentarily to revive a teammate, hack a console, using it to aid in rushing to extraction, etc.) but it's really the only solution that wouldn't require changing the ability itself in some way or form. 

5 minutes ago, skull755 said:

Something else you could do is give the player a reduced version of the opposite buff so while the player has a 200% damage buff they would still receive a 25% damage reduction buff and while the the player is at 75% damage reduction they still get a 50% damage buff, this would make the ability more reliable and players would be more likely to use the defense buff as right now most players exclusively use the damage buff, though admittedly this might be better suited for an augment mod as it might be a bit much for the base ability.

^ Or what they suggested. Still a little bit inconsistent since you have to rely on the lightning, but at least that way you get to make work out of both buffs instead of specifically aiming for the damage buff.

Edited January 27 by crimsonspartan1

[DrLego]

Tap/Hold, make it so the helminth version is shadow / damage reduction only.

[WeedleBrando]

I'm a big fan of the light beam idea, just because there's a thematic link to mirage with that sense of performance or showmanship. I don't imagine this would be more popular than just making it tap-hold because that guarantees ease of use for an ability people have subsumed based on how it currently works, but I'd still like to explore the idea.

If eclipse were to place a beacon that shines down a zone of light in a radius that you or allies could stand in and get a huge damage boost in, while giving you (the caster) damage reduction and decreased visibility for staying out of the light, I'd be happy with that functionality.

I understand the biggest benefit to eclipse as an ability/subsume is that you can cast and just passively reap the benefits, but I think there's great discussion to be had over new ideas for it.

Vulnerability but incredibly high damage in the spotlight, and decreased visibility and damage reduction outside of it. Building strength and range means a better (placeable) area to fire from with increased killing potential, and an augment could return it closer to its old functionality: with tap-hold instead creating a light radius off of mirage, boosting damage to those nearby, and holding absorbing light instead; creating a damage reduction/stealth radius.

I'm sure a lot of peoples first thoughts will be how to make it easier to use universally, and that's alright, but as a part of mirages kit, I want to think of it from there, first. The idea of her standing in a spotlight with a bunch of duplicates firing off and being stronger as a result, only to step out of the light and be able to casually shrug off a bombards rocket when things seem dire, gives us the same idea with a clearer way to take advantage of it. I think it could work. The augment proposal with tap-hold functionality granting a radius around her means mirage could potentially see some new revitalized usage as a dps/support and come out stronger. The existing augment for eclipse is to give some of the benefit to teammates, but having that baked in could be very beneficial without disrupting the power too much. Thinking with the helminth in mind, and to keep it more familiar to people, flip this idea on it's head. A tap to activate = Light emission/damage boost radius, while a hold to activate = a shroud of darkness to reduce damage, with the augment being a placeable light-buff zone for everyone to benefit from, instead.

[ImWithDerp]

Given that Mirage's kit feels a bit plain, I'd love something like that light pillar idea which would make playing her more interesting, especially if her other abilities could interact with them!

[Cazzzz]

I would rather the Helminth be nerfed in place of a toggle option. 

This would also make it easier to use the Total Eclipse augment and use it for more reliable team coordination. 

Frankly, Eclipse never should have been Mirage's helminth contribution to begin with, it should've been Sleight of Hand for balance purposes and that was a huge oversight from the get-go.