Augment mods should be moldable externally

[MBaldelli]

7 hours ago, RATATOUILLETHETHIRD said:

so you took the most recently reworked Warframe as a counter example i don't know if you own more then 1 frame or your just a disingenuous person who happened to be bored that day but a very significant amount of frames have very lackluster abilities with out their augment.

I chose it because I had recently taken advantage of my re-worked 2 forma Hydroid prime so that I could use Primed Sure footed with him as he can be knocked around the map like a ragdoll.   Want me to use other examples?  sure.  I'll play.  All examples on Steel Path...  

My Rhino?  I can run with Ironclad Charge and Iron Shrapnel.  I can get my Ironskin well over 75K and more than happily run the mission for more time than I'm willing to admit to not being downed once, and being able to take advantage of knocking everyone down when they're trying to give me a whole lot of surprise buttsex that I don't want.  

My Nidus with Insatiable can be max stacks in record time and have absolutely no bloody problems staying alive and killing en masse.  

Mag?  you have an example of that already above.  

Nyx? it's pure chaos between Chaos sphere, Singularity or both.  

All right, I've given you 5 examples.  Sorry you're having problems with this, so I'll say it again:  

If you can't do this -- this is a you problem and you should re-examine your builds carefully as you're clearly not doing something right.  

[0_The_F00l]

7 hours ago, RATATOUILLETHETHIRD said:

having ha helminth segment that lets you (infuse/add the augments effect directly to your frame) or a separate mode page like with the rail jack would be an easier option for DE to implement then reworking every single ability that is wonky or awkward or bad with out its augment.

in a perfect world every ability should be great with out an augment but practically speaking it would be faster and people wouldn't have to wait for their particular frames ability to gets reworked

You are preaching to the choir mate , and please recheck my statements , I didn't say every frame , only the ones where the augments should be part of the base kit should be reworked.

In a perfect world different augments would not be having such a large gap in usability and function  either. But some augments are much more powerful than others. And having a free augment with no downsides will just push the already powerful ones further ahead.

As I said , I am ok for having augments be seperately added , but it cannot be an inconsequential change. And having to sacrifice archon shards to accomodate for augments at this moment is a reasonable compromise.

7 hours ago, Aruquae said:

This is true. Caliban is completely unplayable without all of his OP augments. I make to to put all 6 augments into his kit because he’s so satisfying to use with them. 
Oh… sorry I had too much copium

Yeah , makes a lot of sense ,  talking about a frame with no augments is perfect analogy for explaining... What exactly in the context of the topic?

Are you capable of seperating coping with adapting ?

just cause you are incapable of utilising the tools available to you and adjusting your playstyle does not mean everyone else is sniffing copium.

The point of my statements was that there are ways to accomodate augments in existing mechanics. And just cause you can have augments doe not make all frames automatically better , it may still need some core changes.

[Aruquae]

10 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

just cause you are incapable of utilising the tools available to you and adjusting your playstyle does not mean everyone else is sniffing copium

Huh seems I caught you on a bad day to make a joke. I agreed with what you said, your post just reminded me of a frame that has no augments, no tweaks, no nothing. Sure Archon Shards make him easier to use, just doesn't stop him from being janky. 

10 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

The point of my statements was that there are ways to accomodate augments in existing mechanics. And just cause you can have augments doe not make all frames automatically better , it may still need some core changes.

You know.. I feel like I said that in a previous post... please take your aggressions elsewhere. Not everyone on the forums are trying to be poopheads

[Aruquae]

18 hours ago, Aruquae said:

agree, this mod is the definition of what augments should be. 
But then you got things like Energy Transfer. Some augments should be a part of the kit, others such as this (and Voruna’s augment) are better left as mods.

The post in question

[0_The_F00l]

4 hours ago, Aruquae said:

Huh seems I caught you on a bad day to make a joke. I agreed with what you said, your post just reminded me of a frame that has no augments, no tweaks, no nothing. Sure Archon Shards make him easier to use, just doesn't stop him from being janky. 

You know.. I feel like I said that in a previous post... please take your aggressions elsewhere. Not everyone on the forums are trying to be poopheads

My apologies , it is difficult to identify sarcasm on a written media.

I was under the impression you were mocking the ability of players to adapt when you mentioned copium along with a frame that has no augments and is considered aub par by most players.

[SneakyErvin]

18 hours ago, MBaldelli said:

My Rhino?  I can run with Ironclad Charge and Iron Shrapnel.  I can get my Ironskin well over 75K and more than happily run the mission for more time than I'm willing to admit to not being downed once, and being able to take advantage of knocking everyone down when they're trying to give me a whole lot of surprise buttsex that I don't want.  

That just shows Rhino is an outdated frame. Kullervo simply uses his OG skill as part of his natural play, which means he always tops of the OG, he needs no augments for it either. Bulky OG mechanics should stay with frames like Frost and Styanax, where the mechanics are an addition outside of their kit. Both doing a better and smoother job at applying and maintaining OG than poor Rhino.

What they should do for Rhino is to remove his recast from the augment and place it on the skill as baseline. Keep the nuke/puncture on the augment with potentially increased range, or a buff to the next IS cast based on number of enemies hit. Change Reinforcing Stomp to a mechanic that provides Over-Overguard, let it add a further amount roughly inline with the augment of Frost or Styanax, let it build this even if IS isnt active. That would give him many options to build around the skill he is most known for, Iron Skin, without needing augments for the most trivial QoL improvements his old ass needs.

 

Edited February 13 by SneakyErvin

[Aruquae]

1 hour ago, 0_The_F00l said:

My apologies , it is difficult to identify sarcasm on a written media.

Understandable, it's difficult to understand people's tone when it's digital

 

1 hour ago, 0_The_F00l said:

I was under the impression you were mocking the ability of players to adapt when you mentioned copium along with a frame that has no augments and is considered aub par by most players

More like pointing out poor Caliban not getting any love. Of course, the adaptive frame can be adapted into multiple builds/playstyles. Copium was aimed at Caliban getting augments someday... someday... maybe...

[Ksape9901]

13 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

That just shows Rhino is an outdated frame. Kullervo simply uses his OG skill as part of his natural play, which means he always tops of the OG, he needs no augments for it either. Bulky OG mechanics should stay with frames like Frost and Styanax, where the mechanics are an addition outside of their kit. Both doing a better and smoother job at applying and maintaining OG than poor Rhino.

What they should do for Rhino is to remove his recast from the augment and place it on the skill as baseline. Keep the nuke/puncture on the augment with potentially increased range, or a buff to the next IS cast based on number of enemies hit. Change Reinforcing Stomp to a mechanic that provides Over-Overguard, let it add a further amount roughly inline with the augment of Frost or Styanax, let it build this even if IS isnt active. That would give him many options to build around the skill he is most known for, Iron Skin, without needing augments for the most trivial QoL improvements his old ass needs.

 

You may say that Rhino is an outdated frame, and from his passive he is.  But he remains one of the strongest frames, and easy to level cap with.  While some qol for recasting roar and iron skin would be nice, I'd say they're hardly necessary as you have plenty of time to recast iron skin when it pops off.  Having stomp re-up your overguard is nice for low level content, but that honestly feels more of something that really should be its own mod.

[SneakyErvin]

6 hours ago, Ksape9901 said:

You may say that Rhino is an outdated frame, and from his passive he is.  But he remains one of the strongest frames, and easy to level cap with.  While some qol for recasting roar and iron skin would be nice, I'd say they're hardly necessary as you have plenty of time to recast iron skin when it pops off.  Having stomp re-up your overguard is nice for low level content, but that honestly feels more of something that really should be its own mod.

Yeah stomp should definently stay as its own mod. I'm just saying it would be nice it they buff it to be more inline with Frost and Sty instead of being hard tied to the capacity of the Iron Skin skill. Iron Skin indeed has no trouble getting reapplied as it pops off, it is just an outdated mechanic, just as Chroma and Elemental Ward not being able to be reapplied while active. When at the same time we have frames like Revenant and Kullervo that can reapply their defenses whenever they want.

And not only is Iron Skin outdated in the rebuff case, but even with the mod it's horribly outdated, since you need to deactivate it and reactivate it manually. Something that was changed for revenant quite a while ago with Mesmer Skin, so it only take a single interaction to remove and reapply it. I mean, both Iron Skin and Roar are horribly outdated at the baseline since they have the recast restrictions without modding for it. I think both of those skills should get the recast as part of the skill with the mods keeping the additional effects tied to them.

[Ksape9901]

3 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Yeah stomp should definently stay as its own mod. I'm just saying it would be nice it they buff it to be more inline with Frost and Sty instead of being hard tied to the capacity of the Iron Skin skill. Iron Skin indeed has no trouble getting reapplied as it pops off, it is just an outdated mechanic, just as Chroma and Elemental Ward not being able to be reapplied while active. When at the same time we have frames like Revenant and Kullervo that can reapply their defenses whenever they want.

And not only is Iron Skin outdated in the rebuff case, but even with the mod it's horribly outdated, since you need to deactivate it and reactivate it manually. Something that was changed for revenant quite a while ago with Mesmer Skin, so it only take a single interaction to remove and reapply it. I mean, both Iron Skin and Roar are horribly outdated at the baseline since they have the recast restrictions without modding for it. I think both of those skills should get the recast as part of the skill with the mods keeping the additional effects tied to them.

Ok.  In that case I understand where you're coming from.  I agree that would be a good qol change, especially for roar.  With the recent overguard changes though, I don't think that's realistic for iron skin for the main reason that iron skin protection amount is based off of a 3 sec invulnerability phase.  On top of that overguard already stops bleed through of damage after it with a very short i-frame.  

I guess my bottom line is I agree with you for roar, that would be a nice qol change.  For iron skin I think it's much less realistic.

[ECCHOSIERRA]

On 2024-02-11 at 2:30 PM, TARINunit9 said:

Rhino absolutely should be able to recast Iron Skin. The augment is supposed to turn Iron Skin into a damaging attack, that's why it takes up a mod slot, so the recastability part should just be moved to the base ability

I guarantee if recastability was added to base nobody would use this augment.

The damage is pitiful and not worth it.

On 2024-02-11 at 8:48 AM, MBaldelli said:

the problem you failing to pay attention to is this part of the augment:

* Iron Skin Augment: Recasting Iron Skin will cause it to detonate, dealing 100% of its remaining Health as Puncture Damage, and knocking down enemies.

While the blast radius is small, it sufficient if you're surrounded to stagger enemies.    Also your problem is that there are many warframes that have a similar mechanic.  Namely even Nezha's Warding Halo.  

The problem is that Pablo has brought up that there's a laundry list of things he wants to improve.  As he didn't post his laundry list -- coupled with the fact that hotfixes are currently on pause -- you're going to have to wait to see if this is addressed as part of his laundry list.  

Huge problem with this...  And it's based on this saying, if you give an inch, expect the demands to pull a mile.  Suffice it to say how long before someone says, "it's not enough -- we need more." 

The damage part of the augment is so completely meh it borders on useless. 

Warding halo is far better than iron skin in several ways. Do i need to list them? That isnt a fair comparison. And while thats one of the only other defensive abilities that *does* have a "not refreshable" element, that doesnt change the facts that a) the fact that there are vastly superior defensive abilities that *dont* have that restriction *and* b) the one(s) that do are better, makes me question the necessity of that from a balance perspective. 

 

You need 2 augments just to make iron skin feel useable. If you dont use iron shrapnel you are going to find yourself in situations where you have low iron skin and are unable to do anything about it until it breaks. If yoh dont use iron clad charge you're gonna have a hard time getting the numbers up high enough to matter. 

[DraconaxPrime]

What they need to do is separate augments that are QoL (ones like Fused Reservoir, for example), from power augments.  It does feel really stupid to have to use an entire mod slot on your warframe for minor QoL buffs like being able to recast Iron Skin, or planting all 3 reservoirs on the run.  Either they should have an augment slot like the exilus slot, purely for QoL stuff like this, or they should simply roll these types of things directly into the frame.  

[Waeleto]

We need an augment slot

[Birdframe_Prime]

50 minutes ago, Waeleto said:

We need an augment slot

We do not 'need' one. You want one. And DE don't want you to have one.

[trst]

2 hours ago, ECCHOSIERRA said:

I guarantee if recastability was added to base nobody would use this augment.

The damage is pitiful and not worth it.

Saying the augment isn't worth slotting is then yet another entirely different argument.

Augment is "mandatory" =/= give us augment slots =/= augment isn't worth using otherwise.

2 hours ago, ECCHOSIERRA said:

You need 2 augments just to make iron skin feel useable. If you dont use iron shrapnel you are going to find yourself in situations where you have low iron skin and are unable to do anything about it until it breaks. If yoh dont use iron clad charge you're gonna have a hard time getting the numbers up high enough to matter. 

Same with this. Now the argument is that Iron Skin is just a bad ability which I suppose is where the idea that these are "band-aid" augments comes from. But this is again a different argument entirely.

The actual "issues" here is that Iron Skin could use QoL buffs and maybe some direct buffs plus the augments need buffs/reworks. These issues have nothing to do with the augment system as a whole nor warrant augment slots.

Really if players want things like this addressed they should be asking for DE for a QoL patch for frames and continuing to push for more augment reviews. Instead of continuing to ask for something DE already said no to multiple times.

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

On 2024-02-10 at 8:36 PM, ECCHOSIERRA said:

Tell me why its fair rhino needs an augment just to be able to recast iron skin when:

1) Iron skin isnt even that good compared to alot of other survivability abilities (like mesmer skin for example) and,

2) most, almost all, survivability abilities can be refreshed without giving up a mod slot.

I can understand arguing against giving every single warframe an "augment slot" or similar idea but, in my humble opinion, there is a list of abilities that "need" an augment just to feel useable and that seems more a matter of certain things just being outdated, than anything else.

It's because Iron Skin is so over the top powerful that it shouldn't have the ability to recast it, unless there's a mod slot taken in order to do it. It's already VERY easy to gain over a million eHP within seconds (especially with his Charge augment), and his Iron Skin augment can literally one-shot high level enemies consistently when combined with his Charge augment. All it takes is Vazarin's vacuum pull, the Proboscis Cernos bow, subsuming from Nidus or from Mag. Add in Arcane Molt or similar, and you now have millions of eHP and/or millions of puncture damage AOE.

That is a monstrous amount of defense and offense...and you say it's weak? I think this is why DE will not ever add augment slots. The out of the box thinking gets rewarded in Warframe. In contrast, have all the power with few compromises gets boring quickly. 

[Ksape9901]

11 hours ago, ECCHOSIERRA said:

I guarantee if recastability was added to base nobody would use this augment.

The damage is pitiful and not worth it.

The damage part of the augment is so completely meh it borders on useless. 

Warding halo is far better than iron skin in several ways. Do i need to list them? That isnt a fair comparison. And while thats one of the only other defensive abilities that *does* have a "not refreshable" element, that doesnt change the facts that a) the fact that there are vastly superior defensive abilities that *dont* have that restriction *and* b) the one(s) that do are better, makes me question the necessity of that from a balance perspective. 

 

You need 2 augments just to make iron skin feel useable. If you dont use iron shrapnel you are going to find yourself in situations where you have low iron skin and are unable to do anything about it until it breaks. If yoh dont use iron clad charge you're gonna have a hard time getting the numbers up high enough to matter. 

.... What?  

So... agreed that the damage parts of the augment for iron skin / roar are useless.  Completely.

As for iron skin being worse than halo?  Completely depends.  Iron Skin is the easiest to lvl cap with.  I do this on Rhino.  I use 0 augments for iron skin, because they are a complete waste of space as a mod slot.... The main issue with Nezha's Warding Halo is it let's some damage slip through, which will kill you.  Halo is more entertaining at low levels, but at that point anything's usable.  

9 hours ago, trst said:

Saying the augment isn't worth slotting is then yet another entirely different argument.

Augment is "mandatory" =/= give us augment slots =/= augment isn't worth using otherwise.

Same with this. Now the argument is that Iron Skin is just a bad ability which I suppose is where the idea that these are "band-aid" augments comes from. But this is again a different argument entirely.

The actual "issues" here is that Iron Skin could use QoL buffs and maybe some direct buffs plus the augments need buffs/reworks. These issues have nothing to do with the augment system as a whole nor warrant augment slots.

Really if players want things like this addressed they should be asking for DE for a QoL patch for frames and continuing to push for more augment reviews. Instead of continuing to ask for something DE already said no to multiple times.

I'd love for someone to explain how iron skin is bad... I mean, buff it if you want, it'll make Rhino even easier to lvl cap on solo... 

The augments are QoL at best.  Now it would be nice if they were buffed in some way to actually matter, but that's a separate topic from this post.

[ECCHOSIERRA]

20 hours ago, trst said:

Saying the augment isn't worth slotting is then yet another entirely different argument.

Augment is "mandatory" =/= give us augment slots =/= augment isn't worth using otherwise.

Same with this. Now the argument is that Iron Skin is just a bad ability which I suppose is where the idea that these are "band-aid" augments comes from. But this is again a different argument entirely.

The actual "issues" here is that Iron Skin could use QoL buffs and maybe some direct buffs plus the augments need buffs/reworks. These issues have nothing to do with the augment system as a whole nor warrant augment slots.

Really if players want things like this addressed they should be asking for DE for a QoL patch for frames and continuing to push for more augment reviews. Instead of continuing to ask for something DE already said no to multiple times.

No. 

 

1) im saying IF recastability was added to iron skin, THEN the augment would not be worth slotting.

And im pointing out the "damage" aspect is bad, because that was the justification clung to for defending the situation as is. "But it adds damage!". 

 

2) "the argument is iron skin is a bad ability". Again. No. Not what im saying. What i am saying is, when you take an objective look at other defensive abilities that exist in this game, iron skin feels unnecessarily gimped by comparison.

 

 

 

Im not really saying "every warframe should have an augment slot". But i will say that certain things should, in my opinion, just be part of the base ability. And at a bare minimum, i think iron skin should be recastable. 

 

 

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

5 hours ago, ECCHOSIERRA said:

2) "the argument is iron skin is a bad ability". Again. No. Not what im saying. What i am saying is, when you take an objective look at other defensive abilities that exist in this game, iron skin feels unnecessarily gimped by comparison

I'm having a hard time finding defensive abilities that are far superior than Iron Skin. At what level, SP or otherwise, do enemies start to overtake a properly set up and casted Iron Skin? In fact, higher level enemies only fuel Iron Skin to even greater eHP.

I don't think we should be basing abilities on their standard, vanilla strength. In Rhino's case, casting Iron Skin at the beginning of the mission, with no damage absorption, no Rhino Charge, and no power strength SHOULD give a bare bones level of eHP. The expectation is to use abilities in as many effective ways as possible, so a 50k eHP Rhino in a level 100 sortie would barely feel anything, same as a 2 million eHP Rhino in SP Sedna. How on earth could we declare that as objectively less? How is virtually invulnerable in need of some sort of buff?

[ECCHOSIERRA]

On 2024-02-16 at 5:55 PM, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 said:

I'm having a hard time finding defensive abilities that are far superior than Iron Skin. At what level, SP or otherwise, do enemies start to overtake a properly set up and casted Iron Skin? In fact, higher level enemies only fuel Iron Skin to even greater eHP.

I don't think we should be basing abilities on their standard, vanilla strength. In Rhino's case, casting Iron Skin at the beginning of the mission, with no damage absorption, no Rhino Charge, and no power strength SHOULD give a bare bones level of eHP. The expectation is to use abilities in as many effective ways as possible, so a 50k eHP Rhino in a level 100 sortie would barely feel anything, same as a 2 million eHP Rhino in SP Sedna. How on earth could we declare that as objectively less? How is virtually invulnerable in need of some sort of buff?

Gara can have 90% damage reduction.

Mesa can have 95% damage reduction.

Citrine can have 90% damage reduction + health regen.

Id argue that warding halo is generally more effective for less hassle. 

Im not even gonna get into invisibility abilties. 

Adaptation exists. 

When you start talking about things like throwing pillage on mesa and having 1400ish overshield that is pretty much refreshable at any given second with 95% percent DR + up to 90% DR from adaptation on top of that, not to mention shards or arcanes, the amount of ehp rhino can REALISTICALLY get isnt that much.

Im aware that under the right circumstances, rhino can get like 2 million iron skin, but that requires set up, effort, an augment and a bit of luck.

a decent number of enemies have to get grouped up by *something*, you have to cast charge, then you cast 2. You need a messload of power strength and that means build restrictions to even get that, that other frames dont have for their abilities. 2 million iron skin isnt impossible, but dont consider that particularly realistic.

Other frames with abilities that cant recast (like shatter shield) dont have any set up requirements at least not like iron skin does. 

 

Truthfully i think the only reason anybody feels inclined to argue about this at all is because iron shrapnel has been a "mandatory" mod for so long nobody can think of it being any other way.

 

Its like me saying well twin vipers wraith can kill stuff if i 100% armor strip AND use bane mods AND use XYZ ability and arcanes and...

 

im not saying Rhino is trash or iron skin is useless. But i am saying its an unfair restriction, that he needs 2 augments to make it viable. 

 

And again, at bare minimum, it should be recastable. 

But probably the thing that objectively, non debatably poops on iron skin harder than anything else in the game right now is mesmer skin. 

My revenant build gets like 28 stacks of iron skin per cast. 

It doesnt matter if enemies are level 9 or level 9999. I gef, at a minimum, 28 seconds of god mode and in practice much, much longer then that. I dont have to cast multiple abilities. I dont need an augment. I dont need any special set up. Even if i said F having so much power strength i would quite reasonably have, idk, 15 stacks no problem.

 

Sure rhino brings un gimped roar to the table but so what. I could roar on revenant or slap something like pillage on and do 100% strip on everything.

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

6 hours ago, ECCHOSIERRA said:

Gara can have 90% damage reduction.

Mesa can have 95% damage reduction.

Citrine can have 90% damage reduction + health regen.

Id argue that warding halo is generally more effective for less hassle. 

Im not even gonna get into invisibility abilties. 

Adaptation exists. 

When you start talking about things like throwing pillage on mesa and having 1400ish overshield that is pretty much refreshable at any given second with 95% percent DR + up to 90% DR from adaptation on top of that, not to mention shards or arcanes, the amount of ehp rhino can REALISTICALLY get isnt that much.

Im aware that under the right circumstances, rhino can get like 2 million iron skin, but that requires set up, effort, an augment and a bit of luck.

a decent number of enemies have to get grouped up by *something*, you have to cast charge, then you cast 2. You need a messload of power strength and that means build restrictions to even get that, that other frames dont have for their abilities. 2 million iron skin isnt impossible, but dont consider that particularly realistic.

Other frames with abilities that cant recast (like shatter shield) dont have any set up requirements at least not like iron skin does. 

 

Truthfully i think the only reason anybody feels inclined to argue about this at all is because iron shrapnel has been a "mandatory" mod for so long nobody can think of it being any other way.

 

Its like me saying well twin vipers wraith can kill stuff if i 100% armor strip AND use bane mods AND use XYZ ability and arcanes and...

 

im not saying Rhino is trash or iron skin is useless. But i am saying its an unfair restriction, that he needs 2 augments to make it viable. 

 

And again, at bare minimum, it should be recastable. 

But probably the thing that objectively, non debatably poops on iron skin harder than anything else in the game right now is mesmer skin. 

My revenant build gets like 28 stacks of iron skin per cast. 

It doesnt matter if enemies are level 9 or level 9999. I gef, at a minimum, 28 seconds of god mode and in practice much, much longer then that. I dont have to cast multiple abilities. I dont need an augment. I dont need any special set up. Even if i said F having so much power strength i would quite reasonably have, idk, 15 stacks no problem.

 

Sure rhino brings un gimped roar to the table but so what. I could roar on revenant or slap something like pillage on and do 100% strip on everything.

Iron Skin needs zero augments to be viable. It functions similarly to Warding Halo (which also cannot be recasted until depletion) and Iron Skin is always  going to be SIGNIFICANTLY stronger than any other DR since its DR is at 100%. How can 90-95% DR somehow be better than 100%?

 In regards to the effort involved with millions of eHP, complete invulnerability should require some extra work at higher levels because the result of that work is high level invulnerability. We're talking zero damage at high SP levels for a long time, from the result of less than 10 seconds of setup work. It doesn't make any sense to me to consider Iron Skin anything but spectacular.