Dax-Kriegor Posted February 25 Share Posted February 25 (edited) 2 hours ago, Ceadeus said: ... Well no, because even Hydroid's control wasn't all that good. Tempest Barrage had unreliable targeting and just knocked stuff down, not terrible but not that good either, Tidal surge threw things all over the place, which was inconvenient, Tentacle Swarm also thrashed their targets around making them hard to deal with vs a normal CC, and Puddle while funny, literally brought the game to a crawl. Hydroid's main niche function was as a lootbooster, but he was also overshadowed in that regard too. THAT'S why he got a rework. He became a DPS because that's just the way of the game anymore. Raw CC just isn't valuable in the fast-paced, kills-per-minute-based meta. Even the best "CC frames" also have some form of damage in their kit anymore. I'll gladly discuss it if you think it's worth discussing I'm just not sure I agree. Tempest Barrage has better targeting and automatically casts at its previous max strength without any hold to charge, making it more reliable for control in addition to having the previous augment included and the base ability and the augment converted into a better one also making it better for damage, so all net positives there for both control and damage. Tidal Surge now drops enemies at your feet instead of flinging them away, making that better for control. The loss of puddle could be argued as a loss of control, but again it was more of a cheeky gimmick than a truly effective CC tool or ability. Tentacle Swarm also got better targeting, no longer thrashes enemies around, and now recaptures enemies who enter the area after cast so it's also better for control there. I don't know of any removed interactions with other abilities from its previous iteration so if you've noticed any I think that might be a bug rather than an intended change. And the only other "control" Hydroid had was his old passive of spawning a single tentacle, which I think we can both agree wasn't really doing much for him anyway. They are, but so are any number of other sources that don't require you to be locked in place for a long animation. If they were a guaranteed kill then maybe, but if you start trying to do finishers in high-level content you're just gonna wind up tickling the enemy and getting shot to Hell. It's interesting to have extra effects on finishers, but just not viable to have them be the focus of a playstyle unless they're going to do something utterly ridiculous. ... Well, that's more a problem with how many people used hydroid though rather than hydroids ability to control. Tempest barrage did knockdown, but wasn't generally necessary so it was my subsume slot. Tidal, when used from undertow, didn't throw anything around, it gathered any enemies you wavedash through directly into the puddle, where you could cast swarm from to lock all enemies in one place. With good duration, this made hydroid2 significantly better than khora or vauban for control based missions like interception, as you could reliably keep all enemies in the mission pinned to exactly where you wanted them while you captured and held the entire map, at any level. The only problem with that is that even in noncombat missions you have other players deciding to nuke your held enemies causing more and more and more to spawn until they flooded the map, and then complained how bad the gamemode is when the problem is really just bad players doing bad things. Hydroid3, however, simply can't do that. Yes tempest is better now, but tidal isn't particularly, undertow is gone and with it all of the fine tuned control that it enabled the swarm, and the swarm for that matter now suspends enemies wherever throughout it's range, not specifically where our want them. The drastic reductions to his capacity for control combined with the new swarm suspending enemies and thereby negating targeting powers from squadmates, not only shoehorns him into a DPS role, but makes him a bad co-op frame unless you run into a hydroid that knows better than to use his ult. Previously you could select where enemies were locked down based on how you cast swarm,with a variety of options. Now it automatically casts at max charge, but without it's previous synergy, and with the added detriment of disabling other players abilities. I WILL concede that he needed the change from magnetic to corrosive,that was good. And his new passive is much better, but he also lost the ability to transfer melee damage to held enemies by attacking the tentacles(like zephyrs tornadoes) which was useful for combat purposes.. but overall where hydroid performed best was missions where direct combat is punished by game mechanics, which is often overlooked because players just mod to be strong enough to ignore any deterrents to direct combat, and bruteforce their way through the game until they reach levels where they'll get killed for doing it, and as most such missions are limited in scope and level scaling, most of the time you won't encounter a scenario where the game punishes effectively enough to deter combat heavy frames. That doesn't make hydroid2 bad, but it DID make him bad in multiplayer, because your squad usually would end up creating a situation where you would have been better off just playing solo And as for finishers, I gotta say as an ash main, for me at least finishers stay relevant well past lvl2000, and don't force me to be stuck in one place, as I can summon shadows to perform finishers while I do other things(yes, I know I don't get credit for any of the damage or kills my shadows get, but the benefit to the mission is the same regardless) Edited February 25 by Dax-Kriegor 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ceadeus Posted February 25 Author Share Posted February 25 (edited) 44 minutes ago, trst said: Inaros was never going to get a major rework due to him having remained a very popular frame despite his state. That said though while there's no reason to judge the actual performance of the rework until we get some hands on experience with it I don't see how it's lackluster. Especially if his "issue" is pointless abilities and potential survivability issues vs super high levels. "Very popular" is a pretty big stretch. He's definitely in the bottom tiers for playtime. But also, there's plenty of reason to judge the performance, we don't need hands-on experience with it specifically because he's staying 90% the same with only minor tweaks. We already know how his kit performs right now, not well, a bit more immortality, some extra movespeed, or an extra few ticks of corrosive isn't gonna change that. Also, as I said, my issue is less with the changes he got themselves and more with the fact that it pulls attention off Inaros when I feel like he definitely deserves a lot more. 44 minutes ago, trst said: His passive can finally be usable which alone can solve most of his possible survivability concerns. Inaros never had raw survivability concerns. That's part of the issue is that's still a lot of what the rework is geared towards but as I already pointed out, any frame can already become virtually invincible, Inaros can use all the same methods in addition to his absurdly high HP. The only part of Inaros' survivability that was concerning was the inability for his kit to keep up with even mid-level content, which he's still going to suffer from with these changes. 44 minutes ago, trst said: Desiccation was already a good ability and is only getting better with more enemies able to be hit with finishers. As there's plenty of finisher synergies he can make use of and it's always an option for one-shotting tankier enemies if your weapons are falling short. Desiccation really isn't a very good ability, specifically because finishers aren't very good because of how much they break the flow of gameplay and slow the pace of combat and they only get worse as you start encountering actual high-level content, not even getting into like endurance runs but just the upper ends of steel path and such enemies will already start surviving raw finishers without extra resistance removal or modifiers. 44 minutes ago, trst said: The new Sandstorm functions as a better "oh sh*t" ability now being faster and healing him. Plus being a grouping ability now means it has use in all situations. It's definitely better, but it's still really short-range and just not as good as the multitude of other CC options on better frames. 44 minutes ago, trst said: His new 3 is still the same old 4th ability but now innately gives status immunity plus the new augment gives you a second layer to his passive. And the new Scarab Swarm now works as a way to spread Corrosive procs and the sand Kavats also help survivability with diverting enemy fire. Same with these, they're improvements, yes, but they're so minor to abilities that are so far behind the curve that it really won't make any impact. 1 corrosive proc a second isn't going to make a huge difference, and summonables have never been great, not to mention he already had the sand clones off devour which he already got to be fully immortal for the duration and "guaranteed" a kill on anything you were patient enough to sit around for, so if the abilities are still going to be ineffective anyway, it doesn't really add any new potential to him. 44 minutes ago, trst said: All in all it sounds like all his concerns have been addressed. Ways to survive stupidly high level enemies and his abilities sound like they're actually worth using all while retaining why players play Inaros in the first place. All that remains is to see just how it performs in action which can only be an improvement since he's still same old Inaros but with all his existing mechanics buffed. Again, that's the issue, if we're looking at Inaros in a vacuum with only himself then sure, you could call them worthwhile improvements. But Inaros doesn't exist in a vacuum, he has to stack up against 55 other frames. And in that lens, he's still miles behind with his one defining trait being made more and more irrelevant as the game goes on and the average survivability of each from gets higher and higher. 30 minutes ago, Dax-Kriegor said: Well, that's more a problem with how many people used hydroid though rather than hydroids ability to control. Tempest barrage did knockdown, but wasn't generally necessary so it was my subsume slot. Tidal, when used from undertow, didn't throw anything around, it gathered any enemies you wavedash through directly into the puddle, where you could cast swarm from to lock all enemies in one place. With good duration, this made hydroid2 significantly better than khora or vauban for control based missions like interception, as you could reliably keep all enemies in the mission pinned to exactly where you wanted them while you captured and held the entire map, at any level. The only problem with that is that even in noncombat missions you have other players deciding to nuke your held enemies causing more and more and more to spawn until they flooded the map, and then complained how bad the gamemode is when the problem is really just bad players doing bad things. Hydroid3, however, simply can't do that. Yes tempest is better now, but tidal isn't particularly, undertow is gone and with it all of the fine tuned control that it enabled the swarm, and the swarm for that matter now suspends enemies wherever throughout it's range, not specifically where our want them. The drastic reductions to his capacity for control combined with the new swarm suspending enemies and thereby negating targeting powers from squadmates, not only shoehorns him into a DPS role, but makes him a bad co-op frame unless you run into a hydroid that knows better than to use his ult. But that doesn't work. With old puddle, if you tidal surged out, you didn't take the enemies with you, you dropped them behind. For simply grouping all the enemies new tidal surge is WAY better because you can actually do what you're describing with just tidal surge alone since it actually keeps them all together instead of yeeting them at the end of your cast. This also works to compact his ult where you just ball them up and the immediately cast it and you have them in a nice, tightly-knit ball. I'm also still not sure what you're talking about with the targeting negation, as far as I know, all targeted abilities are still intended to work. 30 minutes ago, Dax-Kriegor said: Previously you could select where enemies were locked down based on how you cast swarm,with a variety of options. Now it automatically casts at max charge, but without it's previous synergy, and with the added detriment of disabling other players abilities. I'm also not sure what you mean by this because you can still do all the same stuff but better. 30 minutes ago, Dax-Kriegor said: I WILL concede that he needed the change from magnetic to corrosive,that was good. And his new passive is much better, but he also lost the ability to transfer melee damage to held enemies by attacking the tentacles(like zephyrs tornadoes) which was useful for combat purposes.. but overall where hydroid performed best was missions where direct combat is punished by game mechanics, which is often overlooked because players just mod to be strong enough to ignore any deterrents to direct combat, and bruteforce their way through the game until they reach levels where they'll get killed for doing it, and as most such missions are limited in scope and level scaling, most of the time you won't encounter a scenario where the game punishes effectively enough to deter combat heavy frames. That doesn't make hydroid2 bad, but it DID make him bad in multiplayer, because your squad usually would end up creating a situation where you would have been better off just playing solo I don't think that's true either though because there's a reason the saying is "The best CC is dead". While you might prefer to lock down all the enemies in the level instead, it still stands to reason that it makes more sense to just nuke all the enemies all the time and clear the mission while also getting the extra rewards from the kills. Not to mention, like I said, you can still group enemies even more effectively than you could before you just do it with tidal surge instead of puddle. 30 minutes ago, Dax-Kriegor said: And as for finishers, I gotta say as an ash main, for me at least finishers stay relevant well past lvl2000, and don't force me to be stuck in one place, as I can summon shadows to perform finishers while I do other things(yes, I know I don't get credit for any of the damage or kills my shadows get, but the benefit to the mission is the same regardless) Well that's because you're removing the gigantic drawback of finishers which is the forced animation. At that point you're just describing DPS in general, it's not the fact that they are finishers that are helping you, it's just the act of dealing damage. The only exception to this is when using Covert Lethality to force the finisher to be a kill, but even then I don't think it applies to Ash 4 so we're back to being stuck in long animations in a game that every day becomes more about clearing massive amounts of enemies as fast as possible. Edited February 25 by Ceadeus 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dax-Kriegor Posted February 25 Share Posted February 25 (edited) 24 minutes ago, Ceadeus said: "Very popular" is a pretty big stretch. He's definitely in the bottom tiers for playtime. But also, there's plenty of reason to judge the performance, we don't need hands-on experience with it specifically because he's staying 90% the same with only minor tweaks. We already know how his kit performs right now, not well, a bit more immortality, some extra movespeed, or an extra few ticks of corrosive isn't gonna change that. Also, as I said, my issue is less with the changes he got themselves and more with the fact that it pulls attention off Inaros when I feel like he definitely deserves a lot more. Inaros never had raw survivability concerns. That's part of the issue is that's still a lot of what the rework is geared towards but as I already pointed out, any frame can already become virtually invincible, Inaros can use all the same methods in addition to his absurdly high HP. The only part of Inaros' survivability that was concerning was the inability for his kit to keep up with even mid-level content, which he's still going to suffer from with these changes. Desiccation really isn't a very good ability, specifically because finishers aren't very good because of how much they break the flow of gameplay and slow the pace of combat and they only get worse as you start encountering actual high-level content, not even getting into like endurance runs but just the upper ends of steel path and such enemies will already start surviving raw finishers without extra resistance removal or modifiers. It's definitely better, but it's still really short-range and just not as good as the multitude of other CC options on better frames. Same with these, they're improvements, yes, but they're so minor to abilities that are so far behind the curve that it really won't make any impact. 1 corrosive proc a second isn't going to make a huge difference, and summonables have never been great, not to mention he already had the sand clones off devour which he already got to be fully immortal for the duration and "guaranteed" a kill on anything you were patient enough to sit around for, so if the abilities are still going to be ineffective anyway, it's doesn't really add any new potential to him. Again, that's the issue, if we're looking at Inaros in a vacuum with only himself then sure, you could call them worthwhile improvements. But Inaros doesn't exist in a vacuum, he has to stack up against 55 other frames. And in that lens, he's still miles behind with his one defining trait being made more and more irrelevant as the game goes on and the average survivability of each from gets higher and higher. But that doesn't work. With old puddle, if you tidal surged out, you didn't take the enemies with you, you dropped them behind. For simply grouping all the enemies new tidal surge is WAY better because you can actually do what you're describing with just tidal surge alone since it actually keeps them all together instead of yeeting them at the end of your cast. This also works to compact his ult where you just ball them up and the immediately cast it and you have them in a nice, tightly-knit ball. I'm also still not sure what you're talking about with the targeting negation, as far as I know, all targeted abilities are still intended to work. I'm also not sure what you mean by this because you can still do all the same stuff but better. I don't think that's true either though because there's a reason the saying is "The best CC is dead". While you might prefer to lock down all the enemies in the level instead, it still stands to reason that it makes more sense to just nuke all the enemies all the time and clear the mission while also getting the extra rewards from the kills. Not to mention, like I said, you can still group enemies even more effectively than you could before you just do it with tidal surge instead of puddle. Well that's because you're removing the gigantic drawback of finishers which is the forced animation. At that point you're just describing DPS in general, it's not the fact that they are finishers that are helping you, it's just the act of dealing damage. The only exception to this is when using Covert Lethality to force the finisher to be a kill, but even then I don't think it applies to Ash 4 so we're back to being stuck in long animations in a game that every day becomes more about clearing massive amounts of enemies as fast as possible. Just because the most popular way to play is "just killing enemies as fast as possible" doesn't make it the best way. A number of missions offer drawbacks to playing that way, people just mod hard enough to make them unnoticeable, which is a problem with development, not a pro lem with hydroid. And whether hydroid3s new 4 negating targeting abilities is intended or not, it does occur consistently, making his 4 now a troll ability, rather than a control ability. And again, hysroid2 wavedashing to puddle didn't throw enemies away,it locked them into the puddle. If you can now combo 2 and 4 to achieve the same effect then I'll have to play around w it and see if it's as effective as you say, but it's still held back by the problems that his 4 now poses for co-op play. In either case, saying that just killing everything is a fine solution notably disregards interception where the more enemies you kill, the more enemies spawn. And since interception does scale up enemy level, in SP getting a saryn or mesa in sqd in interception means you're gonna have a bad time. Past lvl300, if I have an option between dealing with 15 enemies for 1 minute or dealing with 500 for 5-10 minutes, I'm going to go play solo where my squad aren't the greatest threat to mission success. At best you're spending 5-10minutes on a round that should have taken 1-2 minutes, and while khora and vauban are still capable of achieving that in solo play where you don't have to worry about idiots interfering, as far as I've seen, hydroid no longer has the capacity to outperform either of them, where previously ye was my frame of choice in those inatances. I personally feel that in terms of hard cc, he's gone from s tier to c, or f tier due if nothing else to his ult now impeding other players abilities. Even if tempest and tidal are comparable or better than before, and even if combo 2+4 achieves the same effect as casting from puddle used to, that one point makes his 4 bad across the board And yes, covert lethality works with ash, although it's been nerfed to provide bonus finisher damage and not instakill, and finishers are faster based on attack speed and momentum at time of attack,meaning that a finisher performed under the effects of the speed boost from sliding is significantly faster. There also are methods to bring finisher damage high enough that even at lvlcap, finisher attacks are viable with ash. Less because of the finisher itself killing enemies, and more from the forced slash procs benefitting from the high base dmg provided by the finisher, as well as ash's passive causing slash prices to deal more damage and last longer. In this regard ash, excal, baruuk, and to an extent even banshee now benefit more from finishers than inaros, and a good dagger can quickly create openings for strong finishers without needing to cast at all Edited February 25 by Dax-Kriegor Forgot to address questions about ash/finishers 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)GEN-Son_17 Posted February 25 Share Posted February 25 1 hour ago, trst said: Inaros was never going to get a major rework due to him having remained a very popular frame despite his state. That said though while there's no reason to judge the actual performance of the rework until we get some hands on experience with it I don't see how it's lackluster. Especially if his "issue" is pointless abilities and potential survivability issues vs super high levels. His passive can finally be usable which alone can solve most of his possible survivability concerns. Desiccation was already a good ability and is only getting better with more enemies able to be hit with finishers. As there's plenty of finisher synergies he can make use of and it's always an option for one-shotting tankier enemies if your weapons are falling short. The new Sandstorm functions as a better "oh sh*t" ability now being faster and healing him. Plus being a grouping ability now means it has use in all situations. His new 3 is still the same old 4th ability but now innately gives status immunity plus the new augment gives you a second layer to his passive. And the new Scarab Swarm now works as a way to spread Corrosive procs and the sand Kavats also help survivability with diverting enemy fire. All in all it sounds like all his concerns have been addressed. Ways to survive stupidly high level enemies and his abilities sound like they're actually worth using all while retaining why players play Inaros in the first place. All that remains is to see just how it performs in action which can only be an improvement since he's still same old Inaros but with all his existing mechanics buffed. I'm excited to try this updated kit! His 2 and 3 were my biggest complaints and DE did a rock solid change to the whole kit. It honestly looks really promising and I already see the build changes I'll be making to push Inaros 2.0. The most pleasing change, IMO, is the sandstorms pull effect replacing the push effect. This will synergize quite well with Tenno Kai, Grimoire mods and melee arcanes like Influence. The Sancti Magistar Incarnon would shine with Inaros as well, with a heavy attack healing the squad, thanks to a pulled in pile of enemies. AoE weapons will be even more of Inaros' best friends, now that status immunity is embedded into his Scarab Armor, and I can see the shadow kavats aggro working with the robo doggo's mini clones attack to create an insanely potent, and very manageable, aggro reduction symmetry. Considering all of this, I can understand why Pablo thinks Inaros survivability wouldn't be an issue, even at high level SP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ceadeus Posted February 25 Author Share Posted February 25 32 minutes ago, Dax-Kriegor said: Just because the most popular way to play is "just killing enemies as fast as possible" doesn't make it the best way. A number of missions offer drawbacks to playing that way, people just mod hard enough to make them unnoticeable, which is a problem with development, not a pro lem with hydroid. It is the best way to play though. Regardless of what mission type you're in, it's always more optimal to be able to kill everything before it can react rather than try to CC lock it or avoid the fight entirely if not just because you'll receive additional rewards you wouldn't from playing either other way. I'm not saying I like that outcome, I would much prefer if CC and stealth and more tactful gameplay had a place, but it simply doesn't anymore. The only situations where more firepower isn't the better answer are ones that don't involve enemies at all. 34 minutes ago, Dax-Kriegor said: And whether hydroid3s new 4 negating targeting abilities is intended or not, it does occur consistently, making his 4 now a troll ability, rather than a control ability. And again, hysroid2 wavedashing to puddle didn't throw enemies away,it locked them into the puddle. It would only lock the ones picked up in that dash, but what I'm saying is that if you already have enemies in the puddle and you tried to use tidal surge, it would leave the enemies you had trapped behind, freeing them, and pick up any new ones instead. This was always a huge gripe among Hydroid players, I, again, being one of them. People assumed if another rework ever came that would be one of the changes would be to make the dash not leave enemies behind, but I believe they commented at one point stating they explicitly didn't want what you're describing to happen where someone just gathers up all the enemies without any risk or drawback. 37 minutes ago, Dax-Kriegor said: If you can now combo 2 and 4 to achieve the same effect then I'll have to play around w it and see if it's as effective as you say, but it's still held back by the problems that his 4 now poses for co-op play. You can, just surge any enemies you want grouped and then immediately cast 4 on them while they're still down and they'll get locked together. As for co-op, I'm fairly positive whatever you're describing is a bug, but even without that it still also gained improvements for co-op just from not thrashing enemies around so they're now easier to hit. 39 minutes ago, Dax-Kriegor said: In either case, saying that just killing everything is a fine solution notably disregards interception where the more enemies you kill, the more enemies spawn. And since interception does scale up enemy level, in SP getting a saryn or mesa in sqd in interception means you're gonna have a bad time. Past lvl300, if I have an option between dealing with 15 enemies for 1 minute or dealing with 500 for 5-10 minutes, I'm going to go play solo where my squad aren't the greatest threat to mission success. But we again return to the fact that genuinely good frames can delete enemies level 300 or 500 in the blink of an eye, Hydroid included now. Plus interception doesn't scale either the level or density of enemies per enemy killed, so you're going to be fighting the same difficulty of waves no matter how many you kill, it only goes up per round. Not to mention if we're really going to get into the value of different playstyles, there's no value of any kind to stay in an endurance mission long-term because it will always be more efficient to just reset the run and start over once things start to present any kind of challenge. 43 minutes ago, Dax-Kriegor said: At best you're spending 5-10minutes on a round that should have taken 1-2 minutes, and while khora and vauban are still capable of achieving that in solo play where you don't have to worry about idiots interfering, as far as I've seen, hydroid no longer has the capacity to outperform either of them, where previously ye was my frame of choice in those inatances. I personally feel that in terms of hard cc, he's gone from s tier to c, or f tier due if nothing else to his ult now impeding other players abilities. Even if tempest and tidal are comparable or better than before, and even if combo 2+4 achieves the same effect as casting from puddle used to, that one point makes his 4 bad across the board I'm not sure what you mean by this as missions like intercept have a fixed duration assuming you're in control of all the points, which again can be answered just as easily with a room nuker as a CC lock. And Hydroid's CC potential is largely the same if not better. The only notable exception you're claiming if I'm not mistaken is this interaction with other targeting abilities, but then they shouldn't be relevant in whether the enemy stays CC'd or not. So I'm not really following how he became less control capable when everything got better for that purpose with the exception of losing puddle. 46 minutes ago, Dax-Kriegor said: And yes, covert lethality works with ash, although it's been nerfed to provide bonus finisher damage and not instakill, and finishers are faster based on attack speed and momentum at time of attack,meaning that a finisher performed under the effects of the speed boost from sliding is significantly faster. There also are methods to bring finisher damage high enough that even at lvlcap, finisher attacks are viable with ash. Less because of the finisher itself killing enemies, and more from the forced slash procs benefitting from the high base dmg provided by the finisher, as well as ash's passive causing slash prices to deal more damage and last longer. In this regard ash, excal, baruuk, and to an extent even banshee now benefit more from finishers than inaros, and a good dagger can quickly create openings for strong finishers without needing to cast at all I knew it applied to his teleport but I didn't think it applied to his 4, but maybe that's why it got nerfed. At any rate, all of this is only proving my point that finishers only become usable when you either all but completely remove what defines the finisher which is the animation lock with attack speed buffs, or have multiple other buffing factors on top of them, which Inaros does not, and even then we're still just boiling it down to "big damage number good" so it would still just be better to take a frame that gets similar damage outputs without being reliant on finishers at all. So we're just back to Inaros' kit being pretty pointless. Also I'm not sure if you know, but you can highlight someone's text to only quote the part of the post you actually want to reply to. Just makes things easier to follow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)AyinDygra Posted February 25 Share Posted February 25 I agree the rework was lackluster. Thankfully, they didn't change his core gameplay. (Dessicate and passive finisher restoring health synergy) His Sandstorm is still useless. I will be replacing it with Breach Surge or Eclipse (perhaps different loadouts.) I get my healing from finisher kills; it never was the useful part of Devour, and even though Sandstorm pulls enemies in, I've never needed that functionality from him (it will be especially bad if it still has the awkward entry and exit animations that take forever.) I was hoping for a defensive ability like a mix of Turbulence/Snow Globe that could be self targeted, or placed on allies/defense objects for more utility in group content. His Scarab Swarm is a buff. I also think the Sand Clones being kavats is better for team mates to know the clones are not enemies (there are rarely kavat enemies around.) His Scarab Armor, though... is what needed updating to the modern game, and all they did was merge the augment into it, effectively. The whole "die, but live get a slash proc" is nowhere near the survivability that can be attained by frames using Shield Gating or Overguard. In my rework suggestions, I proposed making it 4 layers of overguard (no damage would be capable of taking more than a single layer at a time.) It's not a huge change. I would have liked to see them make him a full HP caster, like Hildryn is a shield caster, no longer needing to worry about energy at all, and making him just that bit more different from the rest of the frames out there. Now that they did this mediocre update to him... he's not likely to get anything useful for years. That makes me sad. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dax-Kriegor Posted February 25 Share Posted February 25 2 minutes ago, Ceadeus said: It is the best way to play though. Regardless of what mission type you're in, it's always more optimal to be able to kill everything before it can react rather than try to CC lock it or avoid the fight entirely if not just because you'll receive additional rewards you wouldn't from playing either other way. I'm not saying I like that outcome, I would much prefer if CC and stealth and more tactful gameplay had a place, but it simply doesn't anymore. The only situations where more firepower isn't the better answer are ones that don't involve enemies at all. It would only lock the ones picked up in that dash, but what I'm saying is that if you already have enemies in the puddle and you tried to use tidal surge, it would leave the enemies you had trapped behind, freeing them, and pick up any new ones instead. This was always a huge gripe among Hydroid players, I, again, being one of them. People assumed if another rework ever came that would be one of the changes would be to make the dash not leave enemies behind, but I believe they commented at one point stating they explicitly didn't want what you're describing to happen where someone just gathers up all the enemies without any risk or drawback. You can, just surge any enemies you want grouped and then immediately cast 4 on them while they're still down and they'll get locked together. As for co-op, I'm fairly positive whatever you're describing is a bug, but even without that it still also gained improvements for co-op just from not thrashing enemies around so they're now easier to hit. But we again return to the fact that genuinely good frames can delete enemies level 300 or 500 in the blink of an eye, Hydroid included now. Plus interception doesn't scale either the level or density of enemies per enemy killed, so you're going to be fighting the same difficulty of waves no matter how many you kill, it only goes up per round. Not to mention if we're really going to get into the value of different playstyles, there's no value of any kind to stay in an endurance mission long-term because it will always be more efficient to just reset the run and start over once things start to present any kind of challenge. I'm not sure what you mean by this as missions like intercept have a fixed duration assuming you're in control of all the points, which again can be answered just as easily with a room nuker as a CC lock. And Hydroid's CC potential is largely the same if not better. The only notable exception you're claiming if I'm not mistaken is this interaction with other targeting abilities, but then they shouldn't be relevant in whether the enemy stays CC'd or not. So I'm not really following how he became less control capable when everything got better for that purpose with the exception of losing puddle. I knew it applied to his teleport but I didn't think it applied to his 4, but maybe that's why it got nerfed. At any rate, all of this is only proving my point that finishers only become usable when you either all but completely remove what defines the finisher which is the animation lock with attack speed buffs, or have multiple other buffing factors on top of them, which Inaros does not, and even then we're still just boiling it down to "big damage number good" so it would still just be better to take a frame that gets similar damage outputs without being reliant on finishers at all. So we're just back to Inaros' kit being pretty pointless. Also I'm not sure if you know, but you can highlight someone's text to only quote the part of the post you actually want to reply to. Just makes things easier to follow. But just killing everything faster ISNT always the best way to play, and stealth and control and tactful play DO have a place in the game. Just because sloppy gameplay has become the norm doesn't negate that reality, it just marginalizes it because the expectation from sloppy players is that you must also play sloppy to compensate. In (sorry to use the same example again but) interception specifically where killing enemies causes more enemies to spawn, Its always going to be faster to pin down enemies and keep enemy density low than it is to flood the map, especially when nuking one part of the map just causes the adds to spawn where you aren't. So while you're nuking everything at a, you're making enemies spawn at b c and d in greater quantities, at best causing the mission to take longer because you now have more enemies to deal with and they're capturing towers that the player nuking had no reason to put them at, whereas holding the small number of starting enemies creates no adds, doesn't push enemies to where you aren't, and doesn't cause you to lose towers, thereby dragging out completion time. The matter of whether you can delete lvl500 enemies is irrelevant when the issue is that you're making a greater number of enemies than you need to be dealing with and putting them in places where they'll impede mission progress instead of holding them in a harmless location. Saying "The only situations where more firepower isn't the better answer are ones that don't involve enemies at all." Isn't very constructive here as it's both false and a defense of sloppy playing which is irrelevant to what I was saying. The problem with hydroid2 already was that too many people play like cracked-out baboons, and that interferes with a frame that performed exceptionally in situations where thats especially bad. And I wasn't talking about wavedashing out of puddle, I was talking about wavedashing into puddle. 2+3, not 3+2. Also, while suspending enemies like khoras 4 is preferred by many, I dislike it as I much preferred being able to damage the held enemies by using melee on the tentacles. The matter of the tentacles theashing enemies about was moot when targeting them was as simple as attacking the base of the tentacle. And locking you inplace for a slow animation int what makes a finisher a finisher, it's just your chief complaint about finishers. The fact that you can mod those weaknesses out of the attack or initiate finishers from a slide to make them faster only attests to that. What makes a finisher a finisher is that it gets a damage multiplier as well as bypassing defenses like armor and damage resistances, allowing it to deal massive amounts of true damage. Covert lethality also mostly got nerfed because people were just slapping it on a ceramic dagger with a bunch of attack speed mods and calling that good enough because any finisher attack would then kill any enemy, you just had to be able to reliably perform finishers fast enough to be worth using.now, for covert lethality to be effective out have to actually mod well.. and considering that finishers can deal several million damage per swipe, and with slash procs that can mean a massive amount of damage per tick, the dps from finishers is worth it imo, though again for ash, not inaros. I pointed out already that inaros is imo the worst as far as finisher abilities.. And no, I don't know how to do that.. sorry, I'm not very good at posting from my phone. I don't mean to make your page an illegible mess.. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)MYKK678 Posted February 25 Share Posted February 25 (edited) 2 hours ago, Ceadeus said: No you just refuse every bit of evidence to lie through your teeth about what you blindly believe is right. Do me a favor, little science experiment, go search "Inaros" on the forums and see how many results you get, then do "Hydroid" and see if that lines up with your theory that Inaros is never talked about and that nobody ever shut up about Hydroid. Since I know facts aren't your strong suit I'll do the math for you, 30% more results for Hydroid. Does a 30% difference for a frame that's had 2 separate reworks sound like the utterly incomparable difference you were trying to paint it as? Sure doesn't to me. But again, I know facts aren't your strong suit so I'll help you out again, no, Inaros was in just as bad of a state as Hydroid and being talked about for just as long. Everything you've said from the very first word has been false. You're not here to have a discussion like I have with everyone else, you're here to make stuff up and then cry about it when you get proven wrong and try to deflect with false claims that people were "condescending" to you or "not willing to discuss" when that ONLY describes you here. Get off my post. Facts certainly are my strong suit. But they don't seem to be important to you at all. You claim someone is ignoring what's being said, yet you yourself then literally accidentally admit that you only see/hear what you want through "all I'm hearing" You claim to know so much and yet despite my post, very clearly saying that Inaros Rework posts were months apart, you prove the previous statement true by stating in this last reply that apparently my view now is Inaros "is never talked about". When did that change happen? Actually, don't answer. And again, you were claiming others don't even play the game yet strangely call a power that would leave an enemy standing 200m away from you, due to how fast paced the game is, that's supposed to be helping heal/power you a "great power". Showing a complete and utter lack of understanding of how the power described works or why its useless. I don't play Grendel, have no interest in that frame, so you likely know more about that frame than me. See how easy it is to be able to be truthful about one's knowledge? Actually, don't answer. This is done, we're done here. You're not getting what you want and frankly I'm glad. And to be clear, I'm not glad out of spite, I'm glad because you've spent a significant amount of time in here demonstrating how little you know/understand about the game, and a few of your suggestions already reflected that. I know nothing about cars, so it'd be pretty stupid of me to design one. You seem to know very little about warframe, and as such shouldn't get any of this. The end. Edited February 25 by (PSN)MYKK678 . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dax-Kriegor Posted February 25 Share Posted February 25 I'd like to say something unrelated to the original post here, if I may.. OP, whether you meant to be condescending to mykk or not, that's how mykk took it, and doubling down on that certainly is condescending. At this point you're both just bowing up at each other and I don't think that's good for the points either of you are making. It's a bad look both ways imo 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)AyinDygra Posted February 25 Share Posted February 25 1 minute ago, (PSN)MYKK678 said: You claim to know so much and yet despite my post, very clearly saying that Inaros Rework posts were months apart, you prove the previous statement true by stating in this last reply that apparently my view now is Inaros "is never talked about". When did that change happen? Actually, don't answer. Having been an Inaros main since I got him in 2018 (if memory serves me)... he has always been considered a meme. The walking meat bag. Players have always been looked down upon for using him. He's a joke. People that like him, have stuck with him, despite all that. The frequency of posts on the forums isn't a good metric... whenever he's brought up in region chat, or on dev stream twitch chat, etc... it's always degrading to Inaros. It's honestly very discouraging, especially when he makes the game fun to play for me... and people who look down upon him don't really understand how he can be played well, even with his pre-rework kit. He's not "just" a walking meat bag. I've used him to support a new friend playing the game, even with his horribly bad "Devour" ability, because once an enemy is in that state, even other team members can approach them and heal by interacting with the devoured enemy... so he was a team healer. Even moreso when using Scarab swarm to lock down an area that CC's the enemies and provides healing for team members in range. People don't really know that's "a thing" that Inaros can do... It's never been fun to be an Inaros main in this community. His rework at this time is justified more than newer frames like Caliban... though what Inaros got wasn't what he needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trst Posted February 25 Share Posted February 25 1 hour ago, Ceadeus said: "Very popular" is a pretty big stretch. He's definitely in the bottom tiers for playtime. But also, there's plenty of reason to judge the performance, we don't need hands-on experience with it specifically because he's staying 90% the same with only minor tweaks. We already know how his kit performs right now, not well, a bit more immortality, some extra movespeed, or an extra few ticks of corrosive isn't gonna change that. Also, as I said, my issue is less with the changes he got themselves and more with the fact that it pulls attention off Inaros when I feel like he definitely deserves a lot more. Factually wrong: https://www.warframe.com/2023stats His Prime has literally sat near the top in combined usage over the last four years as well as his non-Prime being above a lot of other frames. Players are playing him for a reason and those reasons are still valid with the changes we've seen while his issues do appear to have been addressed. And, again, his popularity means he wouldn't see any large changes since he's clearly "good enough" for a large number of players as is. 1 hour ago, Ceadeus said: Inaros never had raw survivability concerns. That's part of the issue is that's still a lot of what the rework is geared towards but as I already pointed out, any frame can already become virtually invincible, Inaros can use all the same methods in addition to his absurdly high HP. The only part of Inaros' survivability that was concerning was the inability for his kit to keep up with even mid-level content, which he's still going to suffer from with these changes. Raw survivability is one of the major complaints players brought up with him as the two other frames in the no shield boat have built-in mechanics for survivability. He also literally can't use all the same methods due to lacking shields. Also I got no idea what you're referring to with "mid-level content" as his kit was already suitable for "high-level" and he's gaining mechanics that're even more relevant for such content. 1 hour ago, Ceadeus said: Desiccation really isn't a very good ability, specifically because finishers aren't very good because of how much they break the flow of gameplay and slow the pace of combat and they only get worse as you start encountering actual high-level content, not even getting into like endurance runs but just the upper ends of steel path and such enemies will already start surviving raw finishers without extra resistance removal or modifiers. Fast, AOE, light CC (more relevant to a frame that always takes chip damage), heals, and opens enemies to finishers. It's not the best ability but it's definitely a good ability especially as far as "1st abilities" are concerned. Also finishers are good even if you fail to see the value in them. 1 hour ago, Ceadeus said: It's definitely better, but it's still really short-range and just not as good as the multitude of other CC options on better frames. Better is literally all that matters when we're talking about a frame that's already popular with effectively zero abilities. 1 hour ago, Ceadeus said: Same with these, they're improvements, yes, but they're so minor to abilities that are so far behind the curve that it really won't make any impact. 1 corrosive proc a second isn't going to make a huge difference, and summonables have never been great, not to mention he already had the sand clones off devour which he already got to be fully immortal for the duration and "guaranteed" a kill on anything you were patient enough to sit around for, so if the abilities are still going to be ineffective anyway, it doesn't really add any new potential to him. Extra armor, status immunity, and the option of an extra death nullification is fantastic for a frame that lacks shields. Even if Scarab Swarm isn't a lot of procs it's still an AOE source of some armor stripping; paired with Emerald Shards and any other source of Corrosive damage gives his a full strip option. Or at the very least it's a free AOE status proc for status scaling effects if you don't normally run Corrosive on weapons. And his Sand Shadows were awful due to being tied to Devour, getting to spawn summons just from pressing a button and killing an enemy is far more practical. Plus it doesn't matter exactly what they do nor how long they last as summons are still another layer of indirect survivability. 1 hour ago, Ceadeus said: Again, that's the issue, if we're looking at Inaros in a vacuum with only himself then sure, you could call them worthwhile improvements. But Inaros doesn't exist in a vacuum, he has to stack up against 55 other frames. And in that lens, he's still miles behind with his one defining trait being made more and more irrelevant as the game goes on and the average survivability of each from gets higher and higher. And yet again he stacks up just fine vs all the other frames in his current state. Also at this point his one defining trait doesn't matter as much when he now has a unique ability kit to utilize. Being more than just a walking health bar is better than only being known as the walking health bar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dax-Kriegor Posted February 25 Share Posted February 25 1 minute ago, (PSN)AyinDygra said: ...whenever he's brought up in region chat, or on dev stream twitch chat, etc... it's always degrading to Inaros. Sorry for cherry picking here,but Whenever ANY frame is brought up in region, it's degrading. If you're looking for wholesome posts in region you may be missing the reason region got changed to be turned off by default for new players 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)AyinDygra Posted February 25 Share Posted February 25 1 minute ago, Dax-Kriegor said: Sorry for cherry picking here,but Whenever ANY frame is brought up in region, it's degrading. If you're looking for wholesome posts in region you may be missing the reason region got changed to be turned off by default for new players The point I was making, was that ANY time he was brought up ANYWHERE (from region chat to twitch chat to reddit posts, to official forum posts, to group voice chat, he has always been looked down upon as a nothing frame with no abilities, and players who used him have been laughed at for using him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ceadeus Posted February 25 Author Share Posted February 25 5 minutes ago, Dax-Kriegor said: But just killing everything faster ISNT always the best way to play, and stealth and control and tactful play DO have a place in the game. Just because sloppy gameplay has become the norm doesn't negate that reality, it just marginalizes it because the expectation from sloppy players is that you must also play sloppy to compensate. In (sorry to use the same example again but) interception specifically where killing enemies causes more enemies to spawn, Its always going to be faster to pin down enemies and keep enemy density low than it is to flood the map, especially when nuking one part of the map just causes the adds to spawn where you aren't. So while you're nuking everything at a, you're making enemies spawn at b c and d in greater quantities, at best causing the mission to take longer because you now have more enemies to deal with and they're capturing towers that the player nuking had no reason to put them at, whereas holding the small number of starting enemies creates no adds, doesn't push enemies to where you aren't, and doesn't cause you to lose towers, thereby dragging out completion time. The matter of whether you can delete lvl500 enemies is irrelevant when the issue is that you're making a greater number of enemies than you need to be dealing with and putting them in places where they'll impede mission progress instead of holding them in a harmless location. But again, that's the whole point is killing the enemies DOESN'T create any more enemies than you're already dealing with. The enemy cap is fixed per round, it doesn't increase based on how many you kill, unless you're talking about new waves spawning, but having to deal with more waves inherently implies you are able to kill them without issue. There's also the matter that most CC frames can only effectively cover a similar area to what a nuke frame can anyway, so it's not like the nuke frames are any less effective at point coverage than a CC frame, and if you're playing a nuke frame effectively the enemies should never be touching the control points to begin with to ever lose them, so it sounds more like your issue is with ineffective nuke frames, not the playstyle itself, which really only reinforces the idea that more firepower IS the better answer. Not to mention, there's still the matter that every enemy dealt with directly translates to more rewards, so assuming both styles are able to complete the mission, it is objectively more beneficial to gear towards killing faster rather than CC lock. 11 minutes ago, Dax-Kriegor said: Saying "The only situations where more firepower isn't the better answer are ones that don't involve enemies at all." Isn't very constructive here as it's both false and a defense of sloppy playing which is irrelevant to what I was saying. The problem with hydroid2 already was that too many people play like cracked-out baboons, and that interferes with a frame that performed exceptionally in situations where thats especially bad. No, the problem with Hydroid was that in the vast majority of content, the best he could do was delay a mission rather than progress it, similar to the issues Limbo has, but Limbo at least had other effectiveness as a safety net and worked really well with weapon-based combat with stasis. Again, the game directly rewards you for killing more enemies, it doesn't reward you at all for CC'ing them or avoiding killing them, and your best chance of survival is if no threats are alive to begin with. So it is OBJECTIVELY the best way to play. 14 minutes ago, Dax-Kriegor said: And I wasn't talking about wavedashing out of puddle, I was talking about wavedashing into puddle. 2+3, not 3+2. Okay, but that still only catches what you already had in the dash is the problem. So in order to effectively use that for grouping you'd have to dash, puddle, unpuddle, dash, puddle, unpuddle, and essentially just burn a ton of energy on something that's only delaying your progress in most content and is also really inefficient for grouping to begin with. 16 minutes ago, Dax-Kriegor said: Also, while suspending enemies like khoras 4 is preferred by many, I dislike it as I much preferred being able to damage the held enemies by using melee on the tentacles. The matter of the tentacles theashing enemies about was moot when targeting them was as simple as attacking the base of the tentacle. Okay, but you can now just melee them outright. No interaction was lost there it was just made more convenient for every other purpose. 17 minutes ago, Dax-Kriegor said: And locking you inplace for a slow animation int what makes a finisher a finisher, it's just your chief complaint about finishers. The fact that you can mod those weaknesses out of the attack or initiate finishers from a slide to make them faster only attests to that. What makes a finisher a finisher is that it gets a damage multiplier as well as bypassing defenses like armor and damage resistances, allowing it to deal massive amounts of true damage. My point was that the only thing that sets the finisher apart from other high-damage sources is the animation lock. There are other sources of true damage that don't require that restriction, so the defining factor of a finisher IS the animation. And even with those bypasses, the damage still isn't comparable to what a lot of frames can get with less restrictive options. 20 minutes ago, Dax-Kriegor said: And no, I don't know how to do that.. sorry, I'm not very good at posting from my phone. I don't mean to make your page an illegible mess.. All good. No worries. 13 minutes ago, Dax-Kriegor said: OP, whether you meant to be condescending to mykk or not, that's how mykk took it, and doubling down on that certainly is condescending. At this point you're both just bowing up at each other and I don't think that's good for the points either of you are making. It's a bad look both ways imo I'd agree if he hadn't been condescending from literally his first post. He's done nothing but try to be inflammatory and blatantly ignore the facts while claiming I'm the one who doesn't want to discuss I see no reason to treat him with the slightest shred of respect when he's shown nothing but a desire to instigate. 10 minutes ago, trst said: Factually wrong: https://www.warframe.com/2023stats His Prime has literally sat near the top in combined usage over the last four years as well as his non-Prime being above a lot of other frames. Players are playing him for a reason and those reasons are still valid with the changes we've seen while his issues do appear to have been addressed. And, again, his popularity means he wouldn't see any large changes since he's clearly "good enough" for a large number of players as is. ? ? ? 13 minutes ago, trst said: Raw survivability is one of the major complaints players brought up with him as the two other frames in the no shield boat have built-in mechanics for survivability. He also literally can't use all the same methods due to lacking shields. Also I got no idea what you're referring to with "mid-level content" as his kit was already suitable for "high-level" and he's gaining mechanics that're even more relevant for such content. It's not though. Survivability is literally the one and only thing Inaros has to spare. Popping a rolling guard on him and any regen source makes you effectively immortal. Yeah he can't abuse shield gating, but even without it he's still absurdly tanky. And no, his abilities fall off even just late star chart. Have you ever tried to use his 2, 3, or 4 for damage? The only thing he can do is pocket sand finishers, which are better served by any number of frames that have WAY better scaling. 16 minutes ago, trst said: Fast, AOE, light CC (more relevant to a frame that always takes chip damage), heals, and opens enemies to finishers. It's not the best ability but it's definitely a good ability especially as far as "1st abilities" are concerned. Also finishers are good even if you fail to see the value in them. All made irrelevant by the part where finishers are about the worst possible source of DPS to rely on. Again, the game centers around KPM these days. A frame that is entirely reliant on slowly performing a long animation on each and every enemy that won't even kill them in content beyond the star chart is just bad, period. 17 minutes ago, trst said: Better is literally all that matters when we're talking about a frame that's already popular with effectively zero abilities. Except it's not when the whole problem is that he effectively has zero abilities. 20 minutes ago, trst said: Extra armor, status immunity, and the option of an extra death nullification is fantastic for a frame that lacks shields. Even if Scarab Swarm isn't a lot of procs it's still an AOE source of some armor stripping; paired with Emerald Shards and any other source of Corrosive damage gives his a full strip option. Or at the very least it's a free AOE status proc for status scaling effects if you don't normally run Corrosive on weapons. And his Sand Shadows were awful due to being tied to Devour, getting to spawn summons just from pressing a button and killing an enemy is far more practical. Plus it doesn't matter exactly what they do nor how long they last as summons are still another layer of indirect survivability. Again, not denying they're improvements, they're just not improvements that are going to make him good. 21 minutes ago, trst said: And yet again he stacks up just fine vs all the other frames in his current state. Also at this point his one defining trait doesn't matter as much when he now has a unique ability kit to utilize. Being more than just a walking health bar is better than only being known as the walking health bar. He doesn't though. His kit is literally less than it was before just with extra QoL. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)MYKK678 Posted February 25 Share Posted February 25 47 minutes ago, (PSN)AyinDygra said: Having been an Inaros main since I got him in 2018 (if memory serves me)... he has always been considered a meme. The walking meat bag. Players have always been looked down upon for using him. He's a joke. People that like him, have stuck with him, despite all that. The frequency of posts on the forums isn't a good metric... whenever he's brought up in region chat, or on dev stream twitch chat, etc... it's always degrading to Inaros. It's honestly very discouraging, especially when he makes the game fun to play for me... and people who look down upon him don't really understand how he can be played well, even with his pre-rework kit. He's not "just" a walking meat bag. I've used him to support a new friend playing the game, even with his horribly bad "Devour" ability, because once an enemy is in that state, even other team members can approach them and heal by interacting with the devoured enemy... so he was a team healer. Even moreso when using Scarab swarm to lock down an area that CC's the enemies and provides healing for team members in range. People don't really know that's "a thing" that Inaros can do... It's never been fun to be an Inaros main in this community. His rework at this time is justified more than newer frames like Caliban... though what Inaros got wasn't what he needed. Cool. That actually wasn't at all the reason why Inaros players were being teased. It was because he was so good, he was considered "easy mode". 1 power can stun and make multiple enemies vulnerable to finishers, and each finisher performed refilled 25% of Inaros' entire 9k (Prime 10k) Health Pool. Health that could also be used with another power to increase Armor, further decreasing any damage recieved. The only reason that situation stopped was because someone finally figured out how good Revenant is, and now the same teasing passed to Revenant Mains. I can't even begin to guess why you'd think changing the reason behind a well-known event happening within the community was a good idea, it's possible you weren't actually around for it and only saw people being teased because Inaros took a skydive after Overguard came in, but it definitely wasn't why folks were being teased for using Inaros for literal years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waeleto Posted February 25 Share Posted February 25 5 hours ago, Ceadeus said: Well I'd have to disagree and his low playrates would suggest the same. Inaros prime has the playrate of 1.11% in 2023 He's currently with a higher playrate than magP/lokiP/ashP/baruukP/novaP/voruna/garaP/frostP/vaubanP/gyre/zephyrP/trinityP/emberP/equinoxP/yareli/valkyrP/limboP/oberonP/sevagoth/atlasP/bansheeP/nyxP/caliban and i didn't even count warframes release in 2023 or hydroid because he's recently reworked He's currently sitting at the 31st spot counting both primes and regulars so NO Inaros doesn't have a low playrate in fact his playrate is very healthy and even Pablo was surprised that people asked for an inaros rework when his playrate wasn't low but in the middle Not to mention your logic is flawed because what you said suggests that every warframe with a low playrate needs a rework so you're suggesting all the warframes i listed above need a rework and while some of them do most don't Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ceadeus Posted February 25 Author Share Posted February 25 12 minutes ago, Waeleto said: Inaros prime has the playrate of 1.11% in 2023 He's currently with a higher playrate than magP/lokiP/ashP/baruukP/novaP/voruna/garaP/frostP/vaubanP/gyre/zephyrP/trinityP/emberP/equinoxP/yareli/valkyrP/limboP/oberonP/sevagoth/atlasP/bansheeP/nyxP/caliban and i didn't even count warframes release in 2023 or hydroid because he's recently reworked He's currently sitting at the 31st spot counting both primes and regulars so NO Inaros doesn't have a low playrate in fact his playrate is very healthy and even Pablo was surprised that people asked for an inaros rework when his playrate wasn't low but in the middle Not to mention your logic is flawed because what you said suggests that every warframe with a low playrate needs a rework so you're suggesting all the warframes i listed above need a rework and while some of them do most don't Almost every frame listed there has been requested for a rework or touchup of some kind with reasonable regularity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waeleto Posted February 25 Share Posted February 25 Just now, Ceadeus said: Almost every frame listed there has been requested for a rework or touchup of some kind with reasonable regularity. SO you're saying mag, ash, baruuk, nova, voruna, gara, frost, gyre, zephyr, ember, yareli, sevagoth, atlas all need a rework ? because if you're saying so you're just wrong Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dax-Kriegor Posted February 25 Share Posted February 25 (edited) 1 hour ago, (PSN)AyinDygra said: ^sorry idk why this is here and I can't get rid of it "But again, that's the whole point is killing the enemies DOESN'T create any more enemies than you're already dealing with. The enemy cap is fixed per round, it doesn't increase based on how many you kill, unless you're talking about new waves spawning, but having to deal with more waves inherently implies you are able to kill them without issue. There's also the matter that most CC frames can only effectively cover a similar area to what a nuke frame can anyway, so it's not like the nuke frames are any less effective at point coverage than a CC frame, and if you're playing a nuke frame effectively the enemies should never be touching the control points to begin with to ever lose them, so it sounds more like your issue is with ineffective nuke frames, not the playstyle itself, which really only reinforces the idea that more firepower IS the better answer. Not to mention, there's still the matter that every enemy dealt with directly translates to more rewards, so assuming both styles are able to complete the mission, it is objectively more beneficial to gear towards killing faster rather than CC lock." Here you're either missing or ignoring what I'm saying. In interception, new enemies never spawn unless you kill the enemies on the field. Killing enemies causes them to spawn elsewhere and causes adds to spawn. ALSO elsewhere. So locking down enemies keeps them off the objectives while you can hold all 4 points. Nuking enemies causes other towers to be overrun with more enemies, while you're still just taking one point at a time and they're now taking the other 3, but in force. The reason so many people hate high level interception is because at a certain point, it DOES effectively punish the nuke everything play style, and even if you're strong enough to continuously nuke everything at the piint you're holding, you're actively punishing the rest of your squad for playing with you by forcing the enemies that COULD have been made harmless, plus the adds you spawned, to overrun the points you ARENT at. So while controlling the enemy SPEEDS UP the mission and eliminates any threat at other towers, nuking everything at one tower SLOWS DOWN the mission while making it a pain for other players to deal with the strongest enemy in the mission: the brainless nuke player. A cc frame, however is helping everyone clear the mission FASTER by preventing enemies from spawning at the other tower, since adds ONLY spawn when enemies respawn, and enemies ONLY respawn when they DIE. "No, the problem with Hydroid was that in the vast majority of content, the best he could do was delay a mission rather than progress it, similar to the issues Limbo has, but Limbo at least had other effectiveness as a safety net and worked really well with weapon-based combat with stasis. Again, the game directly rewards you for killing more enemies, it doesn't reward you at all for CC'ing them or avoiding killing them, and your best chance of survival is if no threats are alive to begin with. So it is OBJECTIVELY the best way to play." Your best chance of survival is to make enemies unable to attack you. This is accomplished through remaining undetected, hard cc, or if you're incapable of doing either, just nuking so you don't have to actually be good to play. So approaching every situation with the intent to mindlessly nuke is objectively just the sloppiest way to play, not the best. Again, you're just defending playing like a cracked-out baboon, which I already mentioned is fundamentally problematic. And in many mission types the game attempts to punish playing that way, but people disregard that because they can just easily mod beyond any deterrents to brainless play styles,which again doesn't make it better "Okay, but that still only catches what you already had in the dash is the problem. So in order to effectively use that for grouping you'd have to dash, puddle, unpuddle, dash, puddle, unpuddle, and essentially just burn a ton of energy on something that's only delaying your progress in most content and is also really inefficient for grouping to begin with." No, I'm not saying 2+3, 2+3, 2+3... I'm saying 2+3, 4. Or if you missed some enemies, 2+3, melee melee melee, 4, since targeted melee from puddle pulled enemies into the radius, but overall 2+3, 4 was preferable. You're saying that can now be done w just 2+4, and I conceded that I'm going to need to check that out bc I didn't realize that, but it's still problematic in that 4 is now a troll ability that negates powers like bladestorm which is significantly more powerful than anything in hydroids kit, so using 4 as hydroid slows down the mission by using a weaker ability to prevent stronger abilities, in the case of combat scenarios. "Okay, but you can now just melee them outright." Unless using a glaive, meleeing enemies suspended by swarm ISNT anywhere close to as convenient as 'slash the tentacle to transfer damage like zephyrs 4 "The damage still isn't comparable to what a lot of frames can get with less restrictive options" The reason ash is so good in lvlcap is because the damage he can deal from finishers IS superior to what a lot of frames can get with alternatives Edited February 25 by Dax-Kriegor 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dax-Kriegor Posted February 25 Share Posted February 25 6 minutes ago, Waeleto said: SO you're saying mag, ash, baruuk, nova, voruna, gara, frost, gyre, zephyr, ember, yareli, sevagoth, atlas all need a rework ? because if you're saying so you're just wrong Sorry to doublepost, but just wanna point out how priceless it is that all the frames you just mentioned are ridiculously popular 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ceadeus Posted February 25 Author Share Posted February 25 (edited) 49 minutes ago, Waeleto said: SO you're saying mag, ash, baruuk, nova, voruna, gara, frost, gyre, zephyr, ember, yareli, sevagoth, atlas all need a rework ? because if you're saying so you're just wrong Not all of them full-on reworks, no, but they all do have people arguing that their kit overall isn't that great/is clunky/is outdated/etc. Except for Baruuk, that one I don't understand, but maybe that's just because people find him boring. 45 minutes ago, Dax-Kriegor said: Here you're either missing or ignoring what I'm saying. In interception, new enemies never spawn unless you kill the enemies on the field. Killing enemies causes them to spawn elsewhere and causes adds to spawn. ALSO elsewhere. So locking down enemies keeps them off the objectives while you can hold all 4 points. Nuking enemies causes other towers to be overrun with more enemies, while you're still just taking one point at a time and they're now taking the other 3, but in force. The reason so many people hate high level interception is because at a certain point, it DOES effectively punish the nuke everything play style, and even if you're strong enough to continuously nuke everything at the piint you're holding, you're actively punishing the rest of your squad for playing with you by forcing the enemies that COULD have been made harmless, plus the adds you spawned, to overrun the points you ARENT at. So while controlling the enemy SPEEDS UP the mission and eliminates any threat at other towers, nuking everything at one tower SLOWS DOWN the mission while making it a pain for other players to deal with the strongest enemy in the mission: the brainless nuke player. A cc frame, however is helping everyone clear the mission FASTER by preventing enemies from spawning at the other tower, since adds ONLY spawn when enemies respawn, and enemies ONLY respawn when they DIE. No, I'm saying the amount of enemies on the map at any given time stays the same. You don't fight more enemies than you were before by killing them, you just replace the ones you killed. And there's no CC frame in the game that can solo hold all 4 points better than a nuke frame can, old Hydroid DEFINITELY couldn't. There is no point where nuking becomes detrimental, people hate interception specifically because the mission is locked to a set duration regardless of KPM, so it doesn't matter how many you kill you can't progress the mission any faster. That being said, any good nuke frame can easily hold all 4 points and clear out the replacement waves long before they manage to take any of the other towers, they don't have to just sit at one tower because they can easily just move to the next and wipe it out. That's the whole point, the CC frame is the one that's not going to help things because both are going to finish the round in the same time, but then at the end of it you still have to clear all the remaining enemies, where a nuke frame can do it in a second, the CC frame can't. There is literally NO context where a CC frame is more efficient for completing these missions other than assuming the nuke frame PLAYER is bad and isn't performing at the level they should, but that A. can be said about the CC frame as well and B. doesn't reflect on the concept of nuke frame vs CC frame anyway. 45 minutes ago, Dax-Kriegor said: Your best chance of survival is to make enemies unable to attack you. This is accomplished through remaining undetected, hard cc, or if you're incapable of doing either, just nuking so you don't have to actually be good to play. So approaching every situation with the intent to mindlessly nuke is objectively just the sloppiest way to play, not the best. Again, you're just defending playing like a cracked-out baboon, which I already mentioned is fundamentally problematic. And in many mission types the game attempts to punish playing that way, but people disregard that because they can just easily mod beyond any deterrents to brainless play styles,which again doesn't make it better No your best way to make enemies unable to attack you is for them to be dead. It IS the best because it is the most effective, the most efficient, and the most rewarding. What you're arguing about is a thematical issue, not one that actually reflects in the gameplay. It's literally harder to keep a mission CC locked or remain undetected than it is to just nuke them for absolutely no extra benefit at all, and in most cases you physically cannot progress the missions without killing the enemies so it's entirely pointless too. Again, I fully agree I wish the game had more room for CC and stealth. But it doesn't. To argue that there is any context where DPS is not the best answer is just false. You can have frames that are not as good at DPS as others are at CC, but that's a different issue, that's literally because they are not effective enough at nuking to be good. 45 minutes ago, Dax-Kriegor said: I'm saying 2+3, 4. Or if you missed some enemies, 2+3, melee melee melee, 4, since targeted melee from puddle pulled enemies into the radius, but overall 2+3, 4 was preferable. You're saying that can now be done w just 2+4, and I conceded that I'm going to need to check that out bc I didn't realize that, but it's still problematic in that 4 is now a troll ability that negates powers like bladestorm which is significantly more powerful than anything in hydroids kit, so using 4 as hydroid slows down the mission by using a weaker ability to prevent stronger abilities, in the case of combat scenarios. Well then yes, 2+4 alone is a more than suitable replacement and will save you a lot more energy too than the method you're describing. But also I disagree about bladestorm being stronger than Hydroid's kit anymore. Previously, sure, but now with a 2+4+1+3 combo you can group all the enemies in your path, hard lock them in place, strip all their armor EXTREMELY quick, and convert that into a massive boost of armor for yourself as well as 400-600% extra damage on average depending on strength, meaning Hydroid starts putting out millions of damage with almost any weapon. 45 minutes ago, Dax-Kriegor said: Unless using a glaive, meleeing enemies suspended by swarm ISNT anywhere close to as convenient as 'slash the tentacle to transfer damage like zephyrs 4 Well Zephyr has extra interactions though, so that's its own thing, and Hydroid's NEVER had that functionality. So that's kind of moot unless we're just talking about the ability to transfer raw melee damage, in which case, like I said, you can just melee them outright because they're held low enough and held still to hit. 45 minutes ago, Dax-Kriegor said: The reason ash is so good in lvlcap is because the damage he can deal from finishers IS superior to what a lot of frames can get with alternatives It's not though. Not without a bunch of external buffing sources at least, most of which also apply to other frames that can then get better results, as stated with the previous Hydroid combo. Being an avid melee player, I personally subsume off Hydroid's 4 and replace it with Kullervo's teleport for the crit buff so I get a flat +300% crit chance to my heavy strikes and there's not much I can't delete with that. 41 minutes ago, Dax-Kriegor said: Sorry to doublepost, but just wanna point out how priceless it is that all the frames you just mentioned are ridiculously popular He said those are all the frames that are below Inaros who's in 31st out of 56 total. So, not really? Edited February 25 by Ceadeus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waeleto Posted February 25 Share Posted February 25 11 minutes ago, Ceadeus said: He said those are all the frames that are below Inaros who's in 31st out of 56 total. So, not really? I counted both primes and regulars, so if we're counting primes and warframes with no primes only he'd be 24th (i think might be 1 higher or lower) Still a very good place Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ace-Bounty-Hunter Posted February 25 Share Posted February 25 14 hours ago, Waeleto said: couldn't agree more, inaros never REALLY needed a rework He really did need it though. Outside of being a glorified meatshield, his abilities were too slow, clunky and were obviously designed during a pre-Steel Path time when Warframe was a much slower paced game. Furthermore, Shield Gating and Overguard are overwhelmingly superior defensive options compared to armor/health tanking. Plus he lacked a reliable undying mechanic like Nidus does. In the end he was simply outclassed by every other frame that had better mobility, abilities and defensive options. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ceadeus Posted February 25 Author Share Posted February 25 3 minutes ago, Waeleto said: I counted both primes and regulars, so if we're counting primes and warframes with no primes only he'd be 24th (i think might be 1 higher or lower) Still a very good place Ah, better, but I fully expect that number to drop now that shield gating is becoming the meta. I imagine that was really the only thing keeping him up was the ease of use for the health bar to be able to facetank without much thought or investment necessary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Venus-Venera Posted February 25 Share Posted February 25 vor 17 Stunden schrieb SweetAnubis: wait inaros can die? on a more serious note inaros is actually good for me because i have nerve damage that prevents alot of those reaction based builds, that being said he still takes his own skill in knowing how to build him and how to use his build. I cant tell you how many times ive seen people bash me for using inaros saying he's useless and then watching their supposed replacement tank frames get butchered in SP much like you said while i just sit there in a mob of enemies not even going below half health, and then they tell me i lose out on dps because inaros skills arent great, but frankly i always got better dps from melee no matter what frame im playing. inaros may very well die. It depends on the content and current gear, operator school, etc. However, not even pimped necros goes down in the usual sp causal content. and he has arcane grace, self dmg lvl 0 aura+crit arcane and 5x blue shards. So I go in with 800 base armor and also get 3x armor buff. even though it's not actually needed. and I really enjoyed playing inaros. actually super chill warframe. and you can add health dmg -> energy mod and have a lot of str for something like roar. and then rest in bullet jump and run fast. I've never needed more and I hate this primitive "hold on CD" style of playing like Octavia. The problem with Inaros is that the devs have simply run out of ideas. and inaros simply has no niche. And why do you need a tank when there are much better solutions. for example with volt specter for shield and something like mag warframe. Any beginner can camp there for hours. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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