Waeleto Posted February 24 Share Posted February 24 40 minutes ago, Fred_Avant_2019 said: Having the ability changed from multiplicative to standard modded damage is a small price to pay for it being reliable. Oh yeah definitely, going from unreliable to garbage is the solution Can't wait for Mirage to join the "Waiting for rework" gang by next year, i think chroma preserved a seat for her since they're now buddies in having the worst dmg buffs in the game 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MegaloStrikeBack Posted February 24 Share Posted February 24 1 hour ago, Fred_Avant_2019 said: Multiplicative damage led to some funky broken business with Exodia Contagion. I'm glad this much will be over. People who worry so much about having less multipliers and thus less damage so scaling content becomes harder seem to forget you can oneshot most enemies in this game if they have no armor and no shields. Base modded damage is enough for your daily steel path business which is already most of what you're going to do in the "endgame" (understand : anything somewhat "difficult"), as endless runs are pretty much irrelevant (both from a reward standpoint and from a balance perspective), not to mention we have access to alot of tools to strip shields and armor, or outright bypassing them both. It's not and you would know this much if you watched a couple devstreams. Eclipse is getting reworked because it relies on geometry lighting engine, which has been reworked several times and makes Eclipse just not work properly in newer tilesets. It's getting the Vex Armor treatment damage wise for the same reason that Vex Armor was changed, it doesn't have anything to do specifically with the Helminth. Having the ability changed from multiplicative to standard modded damage is a small price to pay for it being reliable. I watched the devstreams, but I don't remember them ever saying at any point that the reason why they have to make it additive has anything to do with the lighting issue. Please link me to where this was said if you can, but that sounds very completely not in line with the way the game works. If I understand what you're saying correctly, you're telling me that they can't keep it a multiplicative buff as it is because of the inconsistency of lighting in Warframe? I get that is why they want to rework into a tap or hold, not that it was the reason it had to become additive was a result of that. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mimolette Posted February 24 Share Posted February 24 (edited) Hey DE. Hey all. Wanted to start off by thanking the devs for an amazing game that has surpassed a whopping 10 years, to which I can confidently say I've been around for almost 9! I'm a long-time player here who usually doesn't post stuff on the forums in regards to feedback, but if there was anything to bring up it would be the changes coming with Dante Unbound, specifically for Eclipse on Mirage natively. While I understand the need to adjust the numbers and even damage calculation of Eclipse as a subsume ability, changing the way it is calculated on Mirage will severely diminish the damage potential and, following that, Mirage's uniqueness as an amazing weapons platform. I can only presume such focus on Eclipse is because of its popularity (especially as a subsumable ability), which overshadows a closer look at Prism and Sleight of Hand, both of which are in more need of changes, but that's another story. There have been many changes in the past, many of which I've felt and understood the reasoning. Helminth abilities being diminished, Emergence Dissipate, Wukong clones using ammo, Bramma cluster revisions, Archon damage attenuation, the list goes on, but when it comes to Eclipse on Mirage, there are better ways than changing it from multiplicative to additive when the game already has so many sources of it (such as Arcanes, Base damage mods, many other Warframe abilities, etc.). I wholeheartedly understand the needed changes for its subsumable version especially as it is now a toggle, but natively Eclipse should not be changed. Adding a cap makes sense, but changing the way how the ability is calculated reminds me a lot of what happened with Chroma, where a once popular frame has now become rarely seen. Again, the original design intention behind the Vex Armor change is understandable as the ability was made recastable, but even at lower lighting levels, Mirage's current Eclipse buff would be outperforming the upcoming revised Eclipse at full strength. Mirage is not the most popular frame, let alone in the top 10 according to the 2023 stats, mostly I assume because of the low survivability which makes sense given that with Mirage, the best offense is a good defense. Mirage needs to stay on the offensive backed up by incredible weapons buffing abilities, and making these changes to Eclipse will become more of an inhibition. Yes, you could toggle the shadow buff instead, but that means giving away a good damage amp which, when playing on higher difficulties, means you won't be able to sustain having all these enemies alive surrounding you, even at 90% damage reduction. I love Warframe and have been playing it almost daily since 2015. It is a game I've always come back to, and while there have been changes that have affected me for better or for worse, I've usually seen the logic and thought process behind it. I may not agree with some, but I accept it. The changes to Eclipse on Mirage however seem draconian, and I see that many players, at least in the Eclipse feedback thread, feel that Eclipse should be a toggle (which it thankfully will be!), nerfed on subsume (and understandably so), but with stats left unchanged on Mirage. I appreciate the effort and hard work and know it is not easy to maintain Warframe's balancing, but it would mean a lot to this Mirage main (and I'm sure many others) if DE took a second pass over it. Thanks for reading! Edited February 24 by Mimolette 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mimolette Posted February 24 Share Posted February 24 I've also made another thread about this topic, in support of keeping the calculations the same with Eclipse natively on Mirage. It is incredibly sad to see your favourite frame suffer because of a reason that isn't tied to the frame itself, but more because of the Helminth subsume system. It is true that it would be very strong on other frames if left unchanged, and that is fine and understandable if the subsumable version of Eclipse is revised. However, Mirage's weapons platform playstyle and squishiness mean that the frame needs a good offense for a good defense, and making the native ability additive will inhibit Mirage's scalability. Yes, we are getting a toggle at full values, but at higher levels, 90% damage reduction (and even at the current 95%) will still hit very hard, and if you can only choose one over the other you'll be losing out on the damage that might make the difference as the more enemies are dead, the less you're being shot or clawed at. I have rarely felt so strongly about a change since I've started playing this game. It hits especially close because of how unwarranted the damage calculation change was. I was expecting a rebalance but more so along the lines of reducing the ability strength multiplier, as opposed to making Eclipse additive. It shows that many Tenno are upset or feel very passionately about the proposed tweaks, and I hope despite the personal investments we can all provide some constructive feedback and a call to action for DE. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Politically_Correct_Name Posted February 24 Share Posted February 24 Totally agree I think this is a terrible change. Just because a lot of people are using something doesnt mean youve failed at your job DE it actually means your doing good and have made a fun thing. Changes should be focused on bringing underused "weak" helminths up not shooting down already well performing ones. Bad idea to do this, leave it alone or just implement the tap/hold but dont completely demolish it as a damage buff. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beiond_ Posted February 24 Share Posted February 24 1 hour ago, MegaloStrikeBack said: I watched the devstreams, but I don't remember them ever saying at any point that the reason why they have to make it additive has anything to do with the lighting issue. Please link me to where this was said if you can, but that sounds very completely not in line with the way the game works. If I understand what you're saying correctly, you're telling me that they can't keep it a multiplicative buff as it is because of the inconsistency of lighting in Warframe? I get that is why they want to rework into a tap or hold, not that it was the reason it had to become additive was a result of that. They gave no reason as to why it would be changed from multiplicative to additive, i can only speculate that it's because they think giving you a x% multiplier to damage would be too much for a click of a button, that being said i find it to come out of left field and goes against the core of this rework, why change that damage property when you're trying to make mirage more consistent? I hope they reconsider this change and don't make mirage bunk buddies with chroma. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dax-Kriegor Posted February 24 Share Posted February 24 The trouble with that is that mirage wasn't intended to have the full damage buff all the time. They said in the first place they'd have to change the buff to make it less effective if they made it a toggle... One of the other options was to not get the power nerfed, but have to wait longer for it to be fixed. I love the environmental aspect of this power and how it gives the potential for amazing burst dps. I'd have been happy to wait longer instead of having the power weakened to reflect a significant change in ease of use, but the majority of players voted to go this route, and de decided to let the community choose.. you're not the only person asking de to reconsider, and I can see why, but how can *de* reconsider the decision *we* made? This is why I was content to wait,and have the power fixed, because I don't want to see it become significantly weaker.. but the community as a whole spoke up and asked for this, even knowing the tradeoff was a weaker power. I suspect DE's response to this, if any, would be a long the lines of that they can't go back on it now, and just disregard that so many people voted for it to be handled this way Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Politically_Correct_Name Posted February 24 Share Posted February 24 As I'm sure DE is quickly becoming well aware, this massive damage nerf to Eclipse helmintth ability is a terrible idea. I can almost guarantee if you were transparent in the poll and included massive damage nerf with tap/hold implementation youd have a hard no from the community. This is looking like it will kill Eidolon builds as well as many current builds people have invested in, for what? If other Helminth abilities are getting low use then buff them dont cripple options the community is currently enjoying. Warframe is in an incredible place right now, more new players than Ive seen in years playing the game myself. Im having more fun than ive ever had in the game and this nerf is scaring me. Please reconsider this, listen to the playerbase, no one thinks this is a good idea. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
--F--NerevarCM Posted February 24 Share Posted February 24 They literally said tap/hold with a nerf to helminth. And everyone I saw on that thread said "YES, tap/hold and nerf helminth version" 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waeleto Posted February 24 Share Posted February 24 In the Eclipse feedback forum post they specifically say "This effectiveness reduction would not affect the ability for Mirage, Only when applied from the helminth" so obviously everyone voted on toggle thinking it won't be a nerf to mirage because it's literally what they said. Had i known this would be the outcome i would've voted for something else and i can imagine many are like me. I think it's not very fair that this is how they handle the situation especially after telling us we'd get something different. 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Numerounius Posted February 24 Share Posted February 24 (edited) I mean, its still a strong ability even with the nerf. I'm just disappointed they didn't recognize it had other issues with it. Edited February 24 by Numerounius 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(XBOX)C11H22O11 Posted February 24 Share Posted February 24 Mirage is still going to be strong, the helminth one is definitely taking a hit. I don't really care cause the QoL is way better than the inconsistency we have now 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enxchiol Posted February 24 Share Posted February 24 I think some people are overreacting about how big thus nerf is. The raw numbers are 75% bigger, and also you can remove base dmg from your weapon builds and insert other things instead that will also recoup some of this loss. Unrelated but I think this is a good change for game balance overall. It is near impossible to make endgame content with how powercreeped everything is, in part because we have like 7 damage sources that are all multiplicative with each other. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laxximus Posted February 24 Share Posted February 24 1 hour ago, Dax-Kriegor said: The trouble with that is that mirage wasn't intended to have the full damage buff all the time. They said in the first place they'd have to change the buff to make it less effective if they made it a toggle... Actually on Devstream 176, which community feedback was based on, it was strongly implied that the buff wouldn't be changed on Mirage, onnly on the helminth version. To quote Pablo: "for Mirage herself we could make it a toggle and I think it would be fine." Nowhere in the discussion that followed was there any mention of changing the way the buff was calculated on Mirage, nor any mention of making it additive to base damage even for the helminth version. I think it would be kinda deceptive to say that nerfing Eclipse on Mirage was a decision *we* as a community made. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skoomaseller Posted February 24 Share Posted February 24 (edited) i mean you now have access to a more consistent buff and you still can use hall of mirrors, don't think y'all got a bad deal edit: but yeah I suppose the change in how the dmg buff was calculated... was not communicated clearly. That's on them. Edited February 24 by Skoomaseller 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raikh Posted February 24 Share Posted February 24 This was definitely communicated very differently than it turned out. Not only was it said that they were fine with the strength of the ability on Mirage herself and wouldn't change it even if it was to become a toggle, this is more than a simple nerf but a functionality change on top. Even if they reconsidered and said they felt like they had to nerf it for Mirage afterall, its still very different to nerf it from say 200% base to 150% (and Helminth possibly from 150% to 100%) as a multiplicative source to changing it to being regular mod weapon dmg%. So in a sense its a double betrayal of what they originally stated because not only are they nerfing Mirage herself but they also change how the ability functions in a fairly significant way. I still think a toggle is necessary due to the lightnign mechanic being a mess that keeps on giving, but ti doesn't leave a good taste in my mouth that the ability will be changed in a far greater way than was initially proposed for the vote on the matter. 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SneakyErvin Posted February 24 Share Posted February 24 (edited) Considering how strong Vex is and that Eclipse will be even stronger in addition to Mirage having an additional damage increase aswell and that the damage will now always be maxed on demand I cant really see the issue people are having with this. It's like people deciding to invest insane amounts of strengths on Sonar Banshee "cos damage!", when even at baseline it turns all weapons into absurd damage machines when hitting those weak spots. Do people except to start ½ hitting things or what? edit: I mean honestly. Mirage already deals a crapload of damage with her images active. I'm fairly sure I will use eclipse for the DR since I can actually force it now and always get full effect. Edited February 24 by SneakyErvin 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ominumi Posted February 24 Share Posted February 24 How much of a difference in damage output are we talking about here? 10 mil red crits to 9 million? Above all, DE will buff Mirage's other abilities to compensate. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dax-Kriegor Posted February 24 Share Posted February 24 10 minutes ago, laxximus said: Actually on Devstream 176, which community feedback was based on, it was strongly implied that the buff wouldn't be changed on Mirage, onnly on the helminth version. To quote Pablo: "for Mirage herself we could make it a toggle and I think it would be fine." Nowhere in the discussion that followed was there any mention of changing the way the buff was calculated on Mirage, nor any mention of making it additive to base damage even for the helminth version. I think it would be kinda deceptive to say that nerfing Eclipse on Mirage was a decision *we* as a community made. Ah,sorry about that. I'm about to head I to work so I don't have time to go over the stream again,but I could've sworn Pablo mentioned in the first place that the buff would need to be altered since it was never intended for players to be running around w eclipse at full strength all the time.. that was, iirc, one of the problem points with how it currently behaves in profit taker/eidolon fights. If I'm mistaken, thats my bad but the proposed change is basically exactly what I expected to happen if it was made a toggle, which is one of the bigger reasons I was much more content to simply wait and let the power be fixed to work as it originally was intended (the other being that the environmental/situational aspect of the power is a lot of fun) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TapelessDawn Posted February 24 Share Posted February 24 hace 10 horas, Redrigoth dijo: Making it additive damage is so garbage. It creates an inverse relationship between ability strength and damage mods. If I did my math right, 130% multiplicative vs 230% additive makes it so at 200% strength additive starts becoming worse at around 250% damage. With 300% strength, additive starts becoming worse at about 130% weapon damage. At some point it results in mirage's damage output being halved. And no, it isn't just "damage buffs". Each one works differently and is optimal for different builds. They each have different multiplicative logic and interactions with different mechanics. I don't know why they cant just make it 150% multiplicative for mirage and 100% for helminth instead of 230% additive for mirage and 150% for helminth? What even is this? A squishier version of Chroma? Chroma is what you play when you want additive damage + tankiness. Mirage is what you play when you want to alternate between glass cannon and stone wall. "YO! Let's take an otherwise good change and ruin it by making it additive!" O definitely agree with this, this is jist taking away a foem of damage increase through ability and 1. Making it less unique by it just being an equivalent to serration. 2. It makes Chroma even more useless. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skoomaseller Posted February 24 Share Posted February 24 22 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said: Considering how strong Vex is and that Eclipse will be even stronger in addition to Mirage having an additional damage increase aswell and that the damage will now always be maxed on demand I cant really see the issue people are having with this. It's like people deciding to invest insane amounts of strengths on Sonar Banshee "cos damage!", when even at baseline it turns all weapons into absurd damage machines when hitting those weak spots. Do people except to start ½ hitting things or what? edit: I mean honestly. Mirage already deals a crapload of damage with her images active. I'm fairly sure I will use eclipse for the DR since I can actually force it now and always get full effect. i think it's important to communicate a change as big as changing how the damage is calculated clearly like mirage will probably still 1 tap a lot of things but being transparent about this would've probably been better 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redrigoth Posted February 24 Share Posted February 24 (edited) 2 hours ago, Enxchiol said: I think some people are overreacting about how big thus nerf is. The raw numbers are 75% bigger, and also you can remove base dmg from your weapon builds and insert other things instead that will also recoup some of this loss. Unrelated but I think this is a good change for game balance overall. It is near impossible to make endgame content with how powercreeped everything is, in part because we have like 7 damage sources that are all multiplicative with each other. It will cut mirage's damage in half on advanced builds. It may also cut it down even further against enemies that have base damage mitigation mechanics. Power buff should be 130% for mirage and 75% for helminth both multiplicative Defense buff should be 80% for mirage and 50% affected by strength mod for helminth so non-mirage need more strength investment. Toggle between one or the other. Recasting overwrites the old buff. Edited February 24 by Redrigoth 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redrigoth Posted February 24 Share Posted February 24 29 minutes ago, TapelessDawn said: O definitely agree with this, this is jist taking away a foem of damage increase through ability and 1. Making it less unique by it just being an equivalent to serration. 2. It makes Chroma even more useless. Makes her into Chroma but with ovaries 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RizinCrossaveDup Posted February 24 Share Posted February 24 DE said that when looking into the changes on eclipse, it wouldn’t be nerfed on mirage. This was clearly a lie since the proposal from the dev stream nerfed her anyways. The proposed change leaves her with a worse version of Vex armor since she either gets damage reduction or damage while chroma has both. Eclipse should still be a final damage multiplier, at least on Mirage. If not, she should have both buffs active on her at the same time. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redrigoth Posted February 24 Share Posted February 24 (edited) 11 hours ago, trst said: That's neat and all but Mirage didn't need the damage due to how overpowered weapons are and she still has Hall of Mirrors. And getting a guaranteed 90% DR buff on her at all times makes it a strict buff for the frame. There's no reason to choose between the two effects when she always has one of them regardless of the state of Eclipse. Yes she does need the extra power. Being a glass cannon is her identity. She can choose between power or tankiness after the change so manage your burst windows/defense windows at higher levels. Maybe it makes no difference against level 120 enemies but it makes a difference against Steel path levels 500 enemies 11 hours ago, trst said: Plus it's still a buff via Helminth as there's no other reliable DR ability through it aside from some armor buffs. Meanwhile weapons are still overpowered and there's still other damage buffs via Helminth. I'm talking about the damage toggle being additive instead of multiplicative. That has no effect on the damage reduction toggle. Idk why you are bringing up irrelevant arguments. You would still be able to toggle damage reduction by hold casting. This is about the tap cast being ruined by putting it into an over-saturated multiplier category. Math graphs show that the more damage you have the less effective the tap cast will be. For example, you have a stacked Primary deadhead, and galvanized aptitude giving you 500% damage. That means a 230% additive buff is half as strong as a 130% multiplicative buff. You use Void Strike which is additive and now you have 1500% damage. A 130% multiplicative buff is 6x more effective than a 230% additive buff. It creates a diminishing returns effect for eclipse the better you mod your weapons and the more ability strength you have. It ruins Mirage's glass cannon aspect by making the power toggle much less relevant at high level play. The % of the power part can be decreased but it must stay multiplicative. Power buff should be 130% for mirage and 75% for helminth both multiplicative Defense buff should be 80% for mirage and 50% affected by strength mod for helminth so non-mirage need more strength investment. Toggle between one or the other. Recasting overwrites the old buff. Edited February 24 by Redrigoth 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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