Should some Subsumes have their debuffs removed?

[Zahnrad]

So, I was looking through the list of Subsumed abilities for something fun or useful I could spam on Hildryn with her huge shield/energy reserves and saw one nerf that felt really odd to me. Mag's Pull has a Range nerf on Subsume and was curious if there are any other abilities that either could do with it being removed, or the reasons for the nerf in the first place are now obsolete.

 

I'm pretty sure the Nerf to Mag's Pull as a Subsume was a result of the Greedy Pull augment. However changes have since been made that at least in my opinion, make this nerf feel unnecessary now.

The whole reason Mag's Pull even has a use is because of the Greedy Pull augment, which allows Mag to pull loot drops to herself, and ever since it's introduction it lead to behavior DE wasn't fond of.

On release, Mag quickly became a meta unit in loot runs since she could collect all the loot for her squad in Defence missions.

DE didn't like this, and nerfed Greedy Pull's augment so that this effect would only apply to Mag, and not to loot for other players. (so for other players, the loot would remain where it was on their client rather than being relocated on everyones end.)

While this still gave Mag a use, it was no longer a support tool for squads.

 

Now I'm not sure at which point in time this change was made, but from playtesting I've found that Greedy Pull no longer works on loot through walls. And will only work if there is a clear Line Of Sight to the loot.

In my opinion, this kinda kills the whole point of Greedy Pull in the first place, as now it's better to just...collect the loot yourself on foot. So, at least in this example I feel like unless Greedy Pull gets a full rework or a new Pull augment comes out, this Subsume Nerf is honestly kinda obsolete. Sure it can be used for Crowd Control but in that regard I think there's better Subsume options for the same niche.

[Arbitrary]

Pull's range was nerfed as an infuse in U32 when it got buffed to create a mini-vortex when casting. This made it a "proper" grouping ability, so its range got reduced to bring it more in line with other grouping abilities in Helminth.

[Tiltskillet]

I think every ability should be weaker when injected, with some caveats.

- This could be handled by f making them stronger on their native frame in many cases. 

- A few abilities like Shuriken and Decoy need a general buff before considering anything else.

- Some abilities may already be sufficiently stronger on the native frame due to synergies.

- A few abilities that are already weaker when injected are penalized too much.  You mentioned Pull, and to me that's a great example.  (Greedy Pull is probably the issue.  But if so, that should be dealt with directly )

 

[Zahnrad]

4 minutes ago, Arbitrary said:

Pull's range was nerfed as an infuse in U32 when it got buffed to create a mini-vortex when casting. This made it a "proper" grouping ability, so its range got reduced to bring it more in line with other grouping abilities in Helminth.

Wait, so Mag's Pull got completely changed? That I did miss out on, but is it weaker than it used to be?

[Arbitrary]

2 minutes ago, Zahnny said:

Wait, so Mag's Pull got completely changed? That I did miss out on, but is it weaker than it used to be?

It's stronger now, as it (tries to) put enemies in a pile in front of you, instead of just ragdolling them in your general direction.

[UnstarPrime]

Broadly speaking, I think it's better when Helminth abilities are in some way weaker than they would be on their source frame, because I think it's undesirable for this system to ever result in a non-source frame feeling like the best way to use an ability.  The default frame should be the optimal source for using these abilities, with Helminth offering a lesser but serviceable version.

[Zahnrad]

6 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

- A few abilities that are already weaker when injected are penalized too much.  You mentioned Pull, and to me that's a great example.  (Greedy Pull is probably the issue.  But if so, that should be dealt with directly )

One that's always bugged me is Ivara's Quiver. Personally I don't think it's because DE think it's too powerful, but more likely they don't want to give 4 abilities as a Subsume, or they don't want to go through the technical side of making it work on other frames.

Regardless, the Subsumed version they give us, kinda fails in all aspects.

As a Subsume, you only get access to the Cloak and Noise Arrows as a Tap/Hold mechanic. Cloak can be somewhat useful with enough range if you can tag your own Sentinel but...Noise arrow...I feel like Warframe in general isn't built in a way to support creating distractions. I don't think Noise Arrow is good even on Ivara either, since she can just...go invisible on demand.

As a subsume it also makes you lose out on the Augments. Empowered Quiver gives Status Effect immunity for being in Cloak bubbles, but again. Other subsumes do it better and I can understand not wanting to give frames the Critical Damage buff from Dashwire when it's augmented. The Power of Three augment is...well it exists I guess?

 

I think Dashwire is honestly one of the coolest abilities in the game, with or without the augment it's something I would consider putting onto Warframes for fun, just because Ivara is one of the few Warframes in the game that can actually change/manipulate the enviroment in a meaningful way.

I guess technically frames like Wisp can do that too, but that's more of utilising chokepoints or defence locations rather than making her own changes.

[trst]

When only 14 of the 54 options on offer are nerfed/altered I don't see any reason to change any of them. Especially as a lot of those are only changed because the ability is lacking dependencies from other abilities/passives. While the remaining ones would be incredibly overpowered if unchanged plus it's better overall for Helminth versions to be weaker so they can't overshadow the frame they originated from.

And as already pointed out Pull is a very potent tool even with the reduced range while Greedy Pull both isn't the reason for that and it was already nerfed long in the past. It's also worth consideration that some may be nerfed (currently or in the future) due to the potential impact of their augments, like Larva being the other nerfed gathering ability despite having the lowest range but Larva Burst makes it a very potent nuke ability.

[Numerounius]

Yes, Eclipse lunar buff DR. You don't even need to build a single point of strength to get its maximum effect. Feels odd this has to suffer this much because of Solar's sins. Just make the handicap only apply for the solar buff or make further changes to this side of the ability as a whole.

[Tiltskillet]

42 minutes ago, trst said:

while Greedy Pull both isn't the reason for that

I'm not sure.  There was some talk about Greedy Pull builds being one of DE's anti-"automation" targets right around Veilbreaker.   I did see a pretty awful looking video centered on exploiting it with a Nekros Wukong camp strat right before that talked about how much easier it would be with the new version. 

[spider_enigma]

they didnt just make it client side, they also made obstacles, even tiny lips on the ground block it, i still use it to sometimes do ground finishers seeing as they now count as normal finishers, so it doesnt pull the loot that are obstructed, but still pulls the enemies

and before someone calls me out about not meleeing and yelling id never melee again in the thread about inaros, a ground finisher is done to all the enemies in the pile at the same time as hypocritical as it sounds but also doesnt count as a finisher for inaros so he doesn't get health back

 

EDIT: after testing ground finishers do infact count as real finishers, but are also stronger then normal finishers as well, daggers do slash procs on ground finisher but not normal finisher.... kills do infarct count for inaros health passive, i had to check

Edited February 26 by spider_enigma

[trst]

17 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

I'm not sure.  There was some talk about Greedy Pull builds being one of DE's anti-"automation" targets right around Veilbreaker.   I did see a pretty awful looking video centered on exploiting it with a Nekros Wukong camp strat right before that talked about how much easier it would be with the new version. 

Even if it was it's still the case that the ability was pretty much unusable as a grouping ability pre-buff, which was on the same patch as the anti-automation changes. So Greedy Pull or not it would have been an automation tool if every frame could have a 25 meter grouping ability before even modding for range.

[UnstarPrime]

1 hour ago, Zahnny said:

One that's always bugged me is Ivara's Quiver. Personally I don't think it's because DE think it's too powerful, but more likely they don't want to give 4 abilities as a Subsume, or they don't want to go through the technical side of making it work on other frames.

I would hazard that it's because the full Quiver ability requires a unique UI element to function, and the HUD allocation at all resolutions isn't designed to support an additional UI element, and/or the code isn't setup to just add and remove UI elements from any given frame.

Edited February 26 by UnstarPrime
clarity

[Zahnrad]

12 minutes ago, trst said:

Even if it was it's still the case that the ability was pretty much unusable as a grouping ability pre-buff, which was on the same patch as the anti-automation changes. So Greedy Pull or not it would have been an automation tool if every frame could have a 25 meter grouping ability before even modding for range.

Wait, it's 25m?
I used to main Mag at one point and even with modded range it never felt that large.

[Tiltskillet]

26 minutes ago, trst said:

Even if it was it's still the case that the ability was pretty much unusable as a grouping ability pre-buff, which was on the same patch as the anti-automation changes. So Greedy Pull or not it would have been an automation tool if every frame could have a 25 meter grouping ability before even modding for range.

The gimmick was in the loot gathering on non-Mag frames with longer base range than it has now.   These people thought it would be even better with the new Pull mechanics, but probably weren't aware of how much the injected version's range would be reduced.  (I think DE mentioned  a range reduction in advance, but not that it was going to be halved.)

Again, I don't know that the range reduction was because of Greedy Pull, and I don't think it was -all- about Greedy Pull.  It just seems plausible to me it was a factor.

Edited February 26 by Tiltskillet

[(XBOX)Big Roy 324]

2 hours ago, Zahnny said:

Wait, it's 25m?
I used to main Mag at one point and even with modded range it never felt that large.

That's because before the update it just yeeted enemies past you.  After the update it seems to have some very obvious but hidden restrictions.  It doesn't grab absolutely everyone.  So there's an enemy limit or line of sight requirement. 

[SDGDen]

yes, but also more other helminth abilities should *get* debuffs or have their debuffs increased (mostly the ones that are significantly over-used)

 

btw, here's the weirdest one:

nidus's larva, which pulls enemies in and groups them up, has the same range as gyre's coil horizon, which pulls enemies in and groups them up.

both of these abilities are subsumes.

nidus's larva has it's range reduced for the subsumed variant

gyre's coil horizon does not. 

 

explain this DE? because larva doesnt even do any of its stack related shenanigans as a subsume, it is actually weaker than subsumed coil horizon.

 

[_Anise_]

I dont get why dispensor from protea has reduced duration ? DE valued the energy generating abilities of it enough they saw fit to make it's duration shorter but you can just recast it, seems pointless plus there are beter abilities and ways of making energy

[ominumi]

Subsume abilites has a high tax infusion because it's to force players to use the frame for the ability rather than just put that ability on a totally different warframe. Why use Valkyr when you can just subsume Warcry onto Volt for maximum attack speed?

[Zahnrad]

23 minutes ago, ominumi said:

Subsume abilites has a high tax infusion

Nobody was talking about the resource costs of infusing an ability tho.

[Tiltskillet]

1 hour ago, SDGDen said:

btw, here's the weirdest one:

nidus's larva, which pulls enemies in and groups them up, has the same range as gyre's coil horizon, which pulls enemies in and groups them up.

both of these abilities are subsumes.

nidus's larva has it's range reduced for the subsumed variant

gyre's coil horizon does not.

Biggest thing is Coil Horizon only holds the grouping for a couple of seconds, unmoddable.  Larva has 7s base, moddable.   It's also only 25 energy compared to 50--significant for players that don't have all the energy solutions available yet. CH is harder to use if just considering a single cast, and there are some odd things it can't do like be cast upwards or jump a gap. 

Of course if energy isn't an issue CH is spammable, while Larva isn't without the augment.   

Anyway, they might be out of wack, but I wouldn't call it that weird.   Out of Helminth grouping tools the stark juxtapositions for me are definitely Ensnare versus Pull or Larva.   Ensnare is so good unless the build is relying on the ragdoll damage mechanic / bug.

 

[ominumi]

2 hours ago, Zahnny said:

Nobody was talking about the resource costs of infusing an ability tho.

Nor am I. 

[trst]

8 hours ago, SDGDen said:

yes, but also more other helminth abilities should *get* debuffs or have their debuffs increased (mostly the ones that are significantly over-used)

 

btw, here's the weirdest one:

nidus's larva, which pulls enemies in and groups them up, has the same range as gyre's coil horizon, which pulls enemies in and groups them up.

both of these abilities are subsumes.

nidus's larva has it's range reduced for the subsumed variant

gyre's coil horizon does not. 

 

explain this DE? because larva doesnt even do any of its stack related shenanigans as a subsume, it is actually weaker than subsumed coil horizon.

 

Not surprising since Larva has a powerful augment, better targeting, and costs half the energy of Coil. The augment makes it a strong spam nuke, uses ground targeting instead of being tied to a physics object, and Larva is only 25 energy vs Coil's 50. Plus doing too many things at once seems to be another criteria DE considers for nerfing subsumable judging by the other nerfed options.

So even if Coil is the better grouping tool that's all it does while Larva has other options and is easier to use.

[ShogunGunshow]

I'm pretty sure there is literally no justification for Defy's Helminth being armor capped at 750. So bad.