Update on the Mirage Eclipse Changes

[Xaiken-EN-]

As an avid Mirage user I am glad she is not being nerfed. However, I do have to agree with others in this thread that the Helminth nerf from 150% to 30% is rather... drastic. While I cannot speak with exact numbers there are things to consider vs Roar. Many others have already mentioned Roar buffing abilities, double dip on DoTs, buffing teammates without needing a mod, etc. As such, Helminth Roar does much more with 30%. Perhaps we start somewhere in the middle, 80 or 100% and adjust as needed from there?
 

Thank you for listening to our feedback these past few days. I hope we can be civil and constructive when providing feedback and we can find that sweet spot together. 

[Piggy_osu]

here are some numbers if eclipse ends up being the same % as roar so you can decide for yourself if the numbers are reasonable:

• eclipse + primed faction mod + double dipping is better than roar + double dipping without faction mod and breaks even at 468% astrength
• eclipse + primed faction mod + no double dipping is better than roar + double dipping without faction mod and breaks even at 183% astrength
• on identical setups (both with or without faction mod), eclipse is always worse than roar if double dipping
• eclipse is identical to roar if not double dipping

important ability specific differences:

• roar has a team buff while eclipse requires augment and for squad to stay around user to keep the buff
• roar multiplies ability damage while eclipse doesn't
• eclipse has a toggle for dr
• eclipse can be recast during the duration of the ability while roar requires augment to do so

imo: eclipse is dead as a damage buffing ability, 50% dr is nice but not significant enough to be useful.

sorry for this messy graph blame desmos for not having better colours
x: astrength%
y: damage multiplier

solid line: primed faction mod for 1.55x damage(smite/bane/expel etc)
dotted line: without primed faction mod

green: roar with double dipping
yellow: eclipse, from top to bottom: double dipping, not double dipping, no faction buff
blue: roar without double dipping

EDIT: if you want, HERE is an interactive version of my graph where you can play with constants and buff %'s to see how numbers change eclipse vs. roar

Edited February 28 by Piggy_osu
added link for graph

[Ghastly-Ghoul]

I think the 30% value is fine as you also get DR. Roar is better for DoTs where as Eclipse will be on par with Roar for non-DoT damage types while also giving another buff. Can someone explain to me why this is unreasonable?

[Kolohov]

As many have said, this is a step in the right direction but 30% for the helminth is too little. Please make it 50% that way Roar will the best option for DoTs and Ability damage and Eclipse the best option for raw weapon damage

[Kaiga]

4 minutes ago, Ghastly-Ghoul said:

I think the 30% value is fine as you also get DR. Roar is better for DoTs where as Eclipse will be on par with Roar for non-DoT damage types while also giving another buff. Can someone explain to me why this is unreasonable?

Because the DR never was, and still isn't that spectacular in the grand scheme of things, you either build for damage output, or survivability, and there are better options for both.
This change turns it into a worse version of roar, and kills any potential use cases eclipse had because remember, you can only subsume one thing, and you're taking the one that gives you the best bang for your buck.

Edited February 27 by Kaiga

[Redrigoth]

30 minutes ago, ThatLuJan said:

The people happy with this nerf are the same people who dont understand this this new nerf is even worse than the original changes DE had planned

Worse for helminth, much better for mirage. Atleast this version is consistent with the initial promise of "we won't touch mirage but we will nerf helminth" lol

[ThatLuJan]

I will never understand what DE are thinking sometimes. They wish to increase helminth variety by nerfing one of the most used helminths into the ground. Which would only drive people to use roar instead, thus decreasing helminth variety instead.

Current Eclipse's values:                                        Planned Eclipse values:                                         Current Roar values:

On Mirage - 200% at base                                   On Mirage - 200% at base                             On Rhino - 50% at base

In Helminth - 150% at base                                  In Helminth - 30% at base                              In Helminth - 30% at base

thats a 25% decrease from Mirage                      thats a 85% decrease from Mirage                 thats a 40% decrease from Rhino

DE claim that they're nerfing eclipse for the sake of "balance" all while not realizing that the only reason people use Eclipse over Roar is because it reaches higher % values. Meanwhile they simultaneously seem to understand & not understand what makes Eclipse & Roar usable to begin with. 

Roar is coded as a universal faction damage buff that affects: allies (without an augment), weapons, & Warframe abilities at the same time. This means that on top of multiplying all your own & allies dmg, it also double/triple dips on certain dmg sources like DoTs & Warframe abilities. This is why even at a low base value of 30%, Roar is still one of the most valuable damage increases in the game. 

Eclipse in comparison is only a final dmg multiplier that DOES NOT affect: allies (without an augment), Warframe abilities, or double/triple dips on DoTs. Reducing Eclipse's base Helminth value to a meagre 30% is a laughably bad idea when you realize that Eclipse offers almost none of the same benefits that Roar does. Its current only real use case over Roar are in situations where you're not relying on DoTs or abilities for your damage   i.e. Eidolons, Profit taker, Archons etc.

As it stands now not only are the current planned changes laughably bad, they're also worse than the original planned changes. If Eclipse must be nerfed to a degree to keep it on par with Roar then I offer a simple suggestion:

Reduce Eclipse's Helminth version by the same 40% as Roar

Current Eclipse's values:                                        Eclipse with a Roar-esque decrease:                   

On Mirage - 200% at base                                   On Mirage - 200% at base 

In Helminth - 150% at base                                  In Helminth - 120% at base       

thats a 25% decrease from Mirage                      thats a 40% decrease from Mirage

By reducing Helminth Eclipse's base value by 40% you are truly bringing it on par with Roar. It also offers a better compromise than making the ability a direct downgrade to Roar in every scenario imaginable.

As for anyone "countering" with "but the dmg reduction tho" you would have to try & convince anyone that the main reason you would ever use Eclipse is for the dmg reduction instead of the dmg multiplier, which im sure 99% of players who use Eclipse would disagree with. In no world does Eclipse having a mediocre dmg reduction ever justify why the dmg multiplier should be nerfed to this degree especially when Helminth already offers substantially better options for increasing your survivability. Whether it be dmg reduction, crowd control, shield regen, or self healing, Helminth already offers plenty of choice for players who need a boost to their survivability.

Edited February 29 by ThatLuJan

[Ghastly-Ghoul]

1 minute ago, Kaiga said:

Because the DR never was, and still isn't that spectacular in the grand scheme of things, you either build for damage output, or survivability, and there are better options for both.
This change turns it into a worse version of roar, and kills any potential use cases eclipse had, because remember, you can only subsume one thing, and you're taking the one that gives you the best bang for your buck.

It never was spectacular because it was dependent on lighting. A lot of players still depend on health and armor and I can see use cases for this new Eclipse. Players can toggle the DR when their shields break or they get lower on health where as you lose that ability with Roar while also gaining a damage increase with double dipping and so on. The players who care about damage on DoTs can simply just choose Roar. It's not like the reduction in damage from choosing Roar over old Eclipse will be that noticeable with today's powercreep. We need more reasons for balance and less reasons for giving out damage increases for no reason other than for bigger numbers that don't impact time to kill.

[ThatLuJan]

12 minutes ago, Ghastly-Ghoul said:

I think the 30% value is fine as you also get DR. Roar is better for DoTs where as Eclipse will be on par with Roar for non-DoT damage types while also giving another buff. Can someone explain to me why this is unreasonable?

Because if Roar & Eclipse are just "on par" then nobody will ever use eclipse again. If they both offer the same increase for raw dmg but roar also increases abilities & double dips DoTs then roar just becomes a direct upgrade to eclipse

2 minutes ago, Ghastly-Ghoul said:

It never was spectacular because it was dependent on lighting. A lot of players still depend on health and armor and I can see use cases for this new Eclipse. Players can toggle the DR when their shields break or they get lower on health where as you lose that ability with Roar while also gaining a damage increase with double dipping and so on. The players who care about damage on DoTs can simply just choose Roar. It's not like the reduction in damage from choosing Roar over old Eclipse will be that noticeable with today's powercreep. We need more reasons for balance and less reasons for giving out damage increases for no reason other than for bigger numbers that don't impact time to kill.

People never used eclipse for the damage reduction it offered. So trying to say that alone justifies nuking the dmg increase is asinine

Edited February 27 by ThatLuJan

[Ghastly-Ghoul]

Just now, ThatLuJan said:

Because if Roar & Eclipse are just "on par" then nobody will ever use eclipse again. If they both offer the same increase for raw dmg but roar also increases abilities & double dips DoTs then roar just becomes a direct upgrade to eclipse

Then what they need to do is remove the DR from Eclipse and buff the damage right? Why are you guys failing to realize the over abundance of damaging abilities and when one option becomes less appealing to those who want to see funny numbers, the argument of less build variety comes up? By choosing to play in a way that prioritizes damage over everything else, you've already boxed yourself into a corner with build variety.

[Kaiga]

Just now, Ghastly-Ghoul said:

Then what they need to do is remove the DR from Eclipse and buff the damage right? Why are you guys failing to realize the over abundance of damaging abilities and when one option becomes less appealing to those who want to see funny numbers, the argument of less build variety comes up? By choosing to play in a way that prioritizes damage over everything else, you've already boxed yourself into a corner with build variety.

Because having bad, nerfed abilities with 0% use rates speaks volumes to build variety, right?

[SocccPrime]

2 minutes ago, Ghastly-Ghoul said:

It never was spectacular because it was dependent on lighting. A lot of players still depend on health and armor and I can see use cases for this new Eclipse. Players can toggle the DR when their shields break or they get lower on health where as you lose that ability with Roar while also gaining a damage increase with double dipping and so on. The players who care about damage on DoTs can simply just choose Roar. It's not like the reduction in damage from choosing Roar over old Eclipse will be that noticeable with today's powercreep. We need more reasons for balance and less reasons for giving out damage increases for no reason other than for bigger numbers that don't impact time to kill.

Noone (i know theres gonna be those few) unironically uses eclipse for its damage reduction as a major component for factoring a build subsuming. Most people used it for big damage. Making it a worse roar in every way possible while pointing to its very mediocre utility in its dr when weapon platforming is what you wanna do with this and that most frames that have this on their platforming build are generally working with various other survivability tools that are superior. 

 

This nerf is an overreaction in contrast to the game itself and should be adjusted to the value generally agreed by most people here which is to match roar.  Its a simple and generally pleasing option that makes it not dead as an abilitu and me wondering whete the dev team has gone. 

[Sinner]

4 minutes ago, Ghastly-Ghoul said:

It never was spectacular because it was dependent on lighting. A lot of players still depend on health and armor and I can see use cases for this new Eclipse. Players can toggle the DR when their shields break or they get lower on health where as you lose that ability with Roar while also gaining a damage increase with double dipping and so on. The players who care about damage on DoTs can simply just choose Roar. It's not like the reduction in damage from choosing Roar over old Eclipse will be that noticeable with today's powercreep. We need more reasons for balance and less reasons for giving out damage increases for no reason other than for bigger numbers that don't impact time to kill.

Even on a health tanking setup, null star is a better source of DR and even then, why not use gloom for a way to Regen health and keep enemies from hitting you? The fact that it's easier to avoid getting hit than it is to simply survive damage is one of the most important things to remember when balancing numbers in this game. As soon as you hit SP levels, any amount of DR less than 100% becomes useless in 10 minutes.

Those players may use health tanking and want to rely on DR, but because of how this game functions, the simple fact that you can get DR should not be a reason to significantly reduce the damage bonus.

Maybe what should be changed is the inability to have both the damage buff and the Dr at the same time, and make the most recently cast version just remove the old one. That way we can balance them around the different buffs in isolation and not use both, because we never had access to both before either

[SocccPrime]

2 minutes ago, Ghastly-Ghoul said:

Then what they need to do is remove the DR from Eclipse and buff the damage right? Why are you guys failing to realize the over abundance of damaging abilities and when one option becomes less appealing to those who want to see funny numbers, the argument of less build variety comes up? By choosing to play in a way that prioritizes damage over everything else, you've already boxed yourself into a corner with build variety.

If your argument is that theres an overabundance of damaging abilities note that the same contrast can be made for sustain. Gloom, Pillage, Silence are some of the examples where theres options but we dont nerf pillage despite how dominant it is as a stripping ability and defensive mechanic.

On the topic of build variety, most of the subsumes in the listed most used are based on efficiency and what options are there that increase build variety that wont eventually get nerfed due to popularity? Roar will be next on the chopping block due to it being the goto next. 

[Ghastly-Ghoul]

8 minutes ago, Kaiga said:

Because having bad, nerfed abilities with 0% use rates speaks volumes to build variety, right?

I think you're exaggerating and projecting. Just because you don't use Vitality and Adaptation, doesn't mean nobody else does. And if even less than 1% continue to use Eclipse, I'd say it was a win. You aren't going to notice any damage loss. Go continue killing lvl cap demolishers in less than a second.

3 minutes ago, SocccPrime said:

If your argument is that theres an overabundance of damaging abilities note that the same contrast can be made for sustain. Gloom, Pillage, Silence are some of the examples where theres options but we dont nerf pillage despite how dominant it is as a stripping ability and defensive mechanic.

On the topic of build variety, most of the subsumes in the listed most used are based on efficiency and what options are there that increase build variety that wont eventually get nerfed due to popularity? Roar will be next on the chopping block due to it being the goto next. 

I think most damage buffing abilities need to go. CC also needs to be reigned in. But rebalancing the game from the ground up is a surefire way to send it to the grave. Just imo. Game is way too braindead in 2024.

Edited February 27 by Ghastly-Ghoul

[ThatLuJan]

4 minutes ago, Ghastly-Ghoul said:

I think you're exaggerating and projecting. Just because you don't use Vitality and Adaptation, doesn't mean nobody else does. And if even less than 1% continue to use Eclipse, I'd say it was a win. You aren't going to notice any damage loss. Go continue killing lvl cap demolishers in less than a second.

I think most damage buffing abilities need to go. CC also needs to be reigned in. But rebalancing the game from the ground up is a surefire way to send it to the grave. Just imo. Game is way too braindead in 2024.

So your "idea" of balance is to just remove any & all unique build variety by nerfing or removing popular tools just because "Game is way too braindead"

[Sinner]

2 minutes ago, Ghastly-Ghoul said:

I think you're exaggerating and projecting. Just because you don't use Vitality and Adaptation, doesn't mean nobody else does. And if even less than 1% continue to use Eclipse, I'd say it was a win. You aren't going to notice any damage loss. Go continue killing lvl cap demolishers in less than a second.

I think most damage buffing abilities need to go. Just imo. Game is way too braindead in 2024.

How would you not notice a difference in damage? We are talking about either a 1/5th to 1/3rd nerf in a total damage multiplier. That directly means our damage is getting nerfed by equally that much.

Right now we are so strong as players that by nerfing our access to tools, you are only railroading us into a smaller selection of weapons that are able to perform at the same level, thus hurting build diversity.

If you remove damage buffing abilities from helminth entirely then congrats you are now left with xaku using felarx for simply level cappingand you have killed buff stacking as a playstyle entirely. That is not a helpful change whatsoever and is completely blind to your previous claim that we can still 1 shot level cap despite the eclipse nerf. Not many weapons can, but #*!% weapon damage amirite? 

[Ghastly-Ghoul]

3 minutes ago, ThatLuJan said:

So your "idea" of balance is to just remove any & all unique build variety by nerfing or removing popular tools just because "Game is way too braindead"

I'm making a meme proposal that's in line with DE's "efforts" in changing usage stats (probably to allow new Warframe subsumes to enter the meta for sales). If I had it my way, I'd create challenging content for once that relied on something skill based rather than slotting in the newest Yu-Gi-Oh card mod or adjusting your elements.

Edited February 27 by Ghastly-Ghoul

[TGOwl]

As a fervent Mirage player I'm happy that you reconsidered the workings of the ability, but at the same time I also agree with the people who has expressed concern about the multiplier planned for the update. They bring out very good points about its functionality compared to other existing options, plus its planned functionality compared to its current incarnation, and I'm inclined to agree that you should raise the number on the helminth ability. Maybe 60% to 100% would be fine considering it affects weapons only, but the consensus I personally see is that while 30% is not necessarily a bad number, is also much worse in comparison. Please don't rush any changes, test and think things through, and have a nice day 🙂

[ThatLuJan]

Just now, Ghastly-Ghoul said:

I'm making a meme proposal that's in line with DE's "efforts" in changing usage stats (probably to allow new Warframe subsumes to enter the meta for sales). If I had it my way, I'd create challenging content for once.

At the very least DE seem to be heading in that direction with their planned "Deep Achemedia" mission. While the mirage formula revert is good, I really do hope they continue to listen to feedback & realize that these new changes arent good either.

[SocccPrime]

5 minutes ago, Ghastly-Ghoul said:

 

I think most damage buffing abilities need to go. CC also needs to be reigned in. But rebalancing the game from the ground up is a surefire way to send it to the grave. Just imo. Game is way too braindead in 2024.

I think the idea of forcing one way thinking gameplay is a 2 sided sword either way.  

 

Nerfing damage buffing abilities doesnt change or impact the game being considered braindead as content is clearable irrespective of them. 

We gonna nerf armor strip next?

 

We gonna nerf the entire game in favor of the concept of personal difficulty when 9999 scaling has always been optional as a player choice and so is using damage buffs as well? If players get damage options reduced you're just pushing them into another corner.  People will play more ability focused frames like saryn, then people will then ask for nerfs to saryn. Then we'll touch the next best thing

I genuinely don't understand gamers who decide their meta and options are allowed to exist and others shouldn't solely on their twisted concept of difficulty. 

 

This goes for the developers too. I dont understand how we went from last year's design philosophy of making more options so people diversify vs this year being lets touch the popularity contest winners instead of offering alts on the same level. 

 

Just makes zero sense in a pve personally scaling game.

[Sinner]

2 minutes ago, Ghastly-Ghoul said:

I'm making a meme proposal that's in line with DE's "efforts" in changing usage stats (probably to allow new Warframe subsumes to enter the meta for sales). If I had it my way, I'd create challenging content for once.

The challenging content in the game RN is open world bosses where eclipse is the meta subsume and we get like 90+% of the listed value

 

[Ntrophy]

Swear i thought they were gonna say they planned to make mirages eclipse multiX scaling but helminth eclipse additive

[zork9900]

2 hours ago, [DE]Juice said:

Hello Tenno!

On Devstream #177, we outlined our upcoming changes to Mirage’s Eclipse. In making the ability a toggle (Tap or Hold) we also changed the buffs to be an additive bonus (similar to Chroma’s Vex Armor) instead of a final multiplicative. To elaborate further with some maths, we changed it from 200% final multiplicative to 350% stack multiplicative.

After reviewing Community feedback and discussing it internally, we are reverting the latter change. Eclipse will remain a 200% final multiplicative for Mirage, and the Helminth Subsume version will be multiplicative and match the exact number for Roar, which is 30%. Please note that it won't be the exact same upgrade as Roar, the differences between the abilities will remain.

Subject to change as we continue playing around with it, but we wanted to provide an update as we continue development and read feedback.

Thank you!

Personally, I think the subsume number is too low, and the mirage number is too high. being the same as roar when it only affects self and only affects weapon damage is not good at all, why would you use it over roar. At the same time though a consistent base 200% multiplicative increase for mirage will make her insanely strong, even if it only affects weapon damage. Sorry mirage mains but I personally think the numbers should be more like 50-75% helminth and 100-150% mirage probably on the lower end, since it scales with strength, although also maybe find time to buff her ult in some way too (it's an ok ability, but it doesn't really feel like an ultimate ability), to make it more of a sidegrade than a nerf.

[Aerikx]

And this folks true colors come out for all to see.

With the smoke and mirrors shattered it looks as though in the end everyone was actually upset about the subsume version after all. 

Mirage being nerfed was just the cover story for it. 

30% may be low on paper, but it is effected by power strength. Additionally, everyone, including their whole family, the cousins too; are only focusing on the DPS aspect of the ability. Completely ignoring that unlock Roar the ability ALSO grants 90% DR.

Um...an ability that grants 90% DR AND can swapped to grants very high DPS at the top of a button is ridiculously powerful and versatile. 

Roar does better DPS yes. But that is ALL roar does. 

Eclipse is significantly more versatile and thus it cannot and should not match roar in DPS. End of story.