Update on the Mirage Eclipse Changes

[Ghastly-Ghoul]

You know for a fact this isn't true when most weapons built well along with armor strip will overdamage level cap enemies. If you're saying armor stripping is a damage buffing ability then even relying on GunCO/MeleeCO and a lot of statuses will make quick work of those enemies. We still have things like DoT inherit mechanics, True damage (which is technically a damage buffing tool on the same level of a whole ability if you ask me), Archon Shards (huge damage buffs if you ask me), nonsubsumable abilities, melee stealth damage, finishers, subsumable abilities that perma CC even eximus units so it doesn't even matter how much damage you deal, etc.

With the weapon powercreep in today's warframe, I'm only noticing a reduction in damage if I have damage numbers turned on.

Your Xaku and Felarx example was extremely disingenuous and you know it.

1 hour ago, Sinner said:

How would you not notice a difference in damage? We are talking about either a 1/5th to 1/3rd nerf in a total damage multiplier. That directly means our damage is getting nerfed by equally that much.

Right now we are so strong as players that by nerfing our access to tools, you are only railroading us into a smaller selection of weapons that are able to perform at the same level, thus hurting build diversity.

If you remove damage buffing abilities from helminth entirely then congrats you are now left with xaku using felarx for simply level cappingand you have killed buff stacking as a playstyle entirely. That is not a helpful change whatsoever and is completely blind to your previous claim that we can still 1 shot level cap despite the eclipse nerf. Not many weapons can, but #*!% weapon damage amirite? 

 

Edited February 27 by Ghastly-Ghoul

[NaoQalli]

EDIT: I'm wrong, whoops.

Edited February 27 by NaoQalli

[Neightrix]

Happy to see it will remain multiplicative. I was afraid Mirage was going to get Chroma'ed.

[Piggy_osu]

29 minutes ago, NaoQalli said:

Quick, nobody tell him that Eclipse + Bane triple dips while Roar can only double dip lol

21 minutes ago, NaoQalli said:

But Eclipse + Bane is still a triple dip.

15 minutes ago, NaoQalli said:

Why though? Can't you just subsume Eclipse over Roar, tweak one of your mod to use Bane, then you get the benefit of triple dip minus one mod you might have used to replace it?

Warframe is a game where stacking multipliers supercedes virtually anything in this game, so I just don't see how that's a less optimized option.

see my math here:

you can say it's a """""triple dip""""" and make it sound like it's better than roar's double dip, but even with bane mod equipped roar's double dip is still consistently better than eclipse, because the only part that double dips is the faction mod and not the eclipse final multiplier.

[PainTako]

I can't help but feel like this is a little too much of a nerf. Roar affects allies, has 5 more seconds, affects abilities, and makes DoTs stronger. Eclipse needs an augment to affect allies.

I'd suggest a softer nerf, if you feel 150% from helminth is too much, why not 75% or 100%? As it stands there is no reason to subsume Eclipse as I think almost everyone would be picking Eclipse exclusively for the damage buff, which roar would be better, or the DR. Not both.

[NaoQalli]

1 minute ago, Piggy_osu said:

see my math here:

you can say it's a """""triple dip""""" and make it sound like it's better than roar's double dip, but even with bane mod equipped roar's double dip is still consistently better than eclipse, because the only part that double dips is the faction mod and not the eclipse final multiplier.

Huh, the math makes sense. Alright then. I'll admit I was wrong.

[Unktena]

1 hour ago, Redrigoth said:

Worse for helminth, much better for mirage. Atleast this version is consistent with the initial promise of "we won't touch mirage but we will nerf helminth" lol

The thing is they also nerfed the DR for Mirage. So even that isn't true.

[Aerikx]

57 minutes ago, ThatLuJan said:

So the solution is the kill the dmg buffing aspect of the ability just some people "might" use it for DR?

The solution is to bring it in line because the ability has more to offer than exclusively boosting DPS. 

This is called: Balance 

If the Ability was only a DPS boost (meaning it didn't offer DR then the ire would be warranted.) but the ugly truth is that the ability offers another mechanic. And from the outset DE said some abilities would be toned down in Helminth for balance purposes. 

This entire thread is folks raging because they can't have their cake and eat it too. 

57 minutes ago, ThatLuJan said:

Why would they even use it for dmg reduction when we already have better options to begin with. Shield gating, crowd control, and just killing enemies will always be better than dmg reduction because at high enough lvls anything under than 100% WILL NOT SAVE YOU.

Because not everyone is going want to shield gate, nor will they have room in their build (depending on the Frame) to build for alternative DR methods. Some will use the ability to boost their survivability. Or...and get this...

They'll do what MMOs call Stance dancing. IE: Swapping between dps and damage reduction on the fly, as needed. 

A feature that Roar and other abilities don't offer. 

48 minutes ago, Numerounius said:

The subsume version does not even reach 90% DR. It has a 75% DR cap.

That's still a ridiculously good buff if subsumed onto squishy frames. 

So the ability is in effect stronger on the actual Frame (as it should be). But weaker on frames it doesn't belong too. 

It offers the ability to...on the fly swap between 75%DR & a 30% DPS boost, and for barely any energy cost at all.

[GR3ATB3AR]

Thank you for reverting Eclipse back to a multiplicative, but please consider changing the subsume from a base of only 30% to around 60-75% (roughly half of the current subsume). Increasing it this much would make it a competitive option against Roar, without making it too strong. Eclipse doesn't buff any status effects or ability damage like Roar does, so it makes sense that the damage increase it offers should be a bit higher, as its use is more limited. 

Edited February 27 by GR3ATB3AR

[Tiltskillet]

12 minutes ago, Sinner said:

 Either way the best way to reduce damage received is still just simply by avoiding it or by shield gating it so the DR is still not worth discussing. 

That's a far more reasonable evaluation.  But not the one I was disagreeing with.

[Sinner]

2 minutes ago, Ghastly-Ghoul said:

You know for a fact this isn't true when most weapons built well along with armor strip will overdamage level cap enemies. If you're saying armor stripping is a damage buffing ability then even relying on GunCO/MeleeCO and a lot of statuses will make quick work of those enemies. We still have things like DoT inherit mechanics, True damage (which is technically a damage buffing tool on the same level of a whole ability if you ask me), Archon Shards (huge damage buffs if you ask me), nonsubsumable abilities, melee stealth damage, finishers, subsumable abilities that perma CC even eximus units so it doesn't even matter how much damage you deal, etc.

With the weapon powercreep in today's warframe, I'm only noticing a reduction in damage if I have damage numbers turned on.

Your Xaku and Felarx example was extremely disingenuous and you know it.

 

Ok so now those frames who have armor strip can continue to run eclipse to 1 shot.

The builds that used eclipse instead of an armor strip are now jumping ship back to armor strip so they can continue to 1 shot.

You see how these changes don't help with gear viability but instead hurt it? You railroad us into 1 option because of this nerf.

True damage is only really accessible from slash procs which means only slash weighted weapons or primaries with HM or melees with really good stances can let you choose to not use an armor strip. Guess what subsume they used for these weapons? Roar cuz of it's double dip mechanic.

So now what if im playing a frame who has a good armor strip so I wanted to kill with raw damage? Well guess what now we are using roar again cuz it's the same 30% but has a longer duration.

Heat inherit is a very difficult mechanic to utilize and is not something that most people want to be trying to build around unless they specifically want to be challenging themselves.

The other multipliers you mention are all things that are already used or are so niche that you have to go out of your way for. 

[Sinner]

14 minutes ago, Aerikx said:

The solution is to bring it in line because the ability has more to offer than exclusively boosting DPS. 

This is called: Balance 

If the Ability was only a DPS boost (meaning it didn't offer DR then the ire would be warranted.) but the ugly truth is that the ability offers another mechanic. And from the outset DE said some abilities would be toned down in Helminth for balance purposes. 

This entire thread is folks raging because they can't have their cake and eat it too. 

Because not everyone is going want to shield gate, nor will they have room in their build (depending on the Frame) to build for alternative DR methods. Some will use the ability to boost their survivability. Or...and get this...

They'll do what MMOs call Stance dancing. IE: Swapping between dps and damage reduction on the fly, as needed. 

A feature that Roar and other abilities don't offer. 

That's still a ridiculously good buff if subsumed onto squishy frames. 

So the ability is in effect stronger on the actual Frame (as it should be). But weaker on frames it doesn't belong too. 

It offers the ability to...on the fly swap between 75%DR & a 30% DPS boost, and for barely any energy cost at all.

Just because they don't want to shield gate or because they just really wanna health tank doesn't mean that they WILL use eclipse at all, or that they PREFER to use the DR form of the ability. You can bring up people who don't want to follow popular methods of survival but those same people are also not going to use this same exact subsume or even care for the DR from the ability either.

The vast majority of players are using eclipse for the damage buff even when they are looking to health tank because everyone knows that killing enemies is better than trying to tank their attacks.

If they want to stance dance then that's great, that sounds badass, but guess what? We already have something that's balancing around this mechanic and that's called energy costs and animation times. If they want to stance dance then they now have to generate enough energy to afford being able to do this and they need to be able to work around those cast times that are a full body animation so you can't even shoot while using it. 

[Aevire]

Thank you for reverting this change with Mirage - she herself is fine. For the helminth, it's nice to see it's still its old self, but I do question the specific number. Roar "double" or "triple dips" 30% seems a little low given that Eclipse doesn't "double" or "triple dip" with status effects like bane/roar does. I would much prefer Eclipse to have its damage reduction brought down to a 75% cap (or lowering its base DR significantly) and keep a 40-50% base damage bonus so that the ability remains usable for world bosses. Generally I would much prefer Helminth abilities to perform specific niches well (such as damage in its or Roar's case) instead of being generalized abilities so that they can encourage specialized builds and shore specific weaknesses in warframes' kits.

Edited February 27 by Aevire

[Captain_Dark21]

Now can we make her clones recastable instead of waiting until the ability ends and having to stop and recast it mid fight. It's bad enough that her abilities cause her to stop and perform the animation potentially getting her killed.

[Ghastly-Ghoul]

28 minutes ago, Sinner said:

Ok so now those frames who have armor strip can continue to run eclipse to 1 shot.

The builds that used eclipse instead of an armor strip are now jumping ship back to armor strip so they can continue to 1 shot.

You see how these changes don't help with gear viability but instead hurt it? You railroad us into 1 option because of this nerf.

True damage is only really accessible from slash procs which means only slash weighted weapons or primaries with HM or melees with really good stances can let you choose to not use an armor strip. Guess what subsume they used for these weapons? Roar cuz of it's double dip mechanic.

So now what if im playing a frame who has a good armor strip so I wanted to kill with raw damage? Well guess what now we are using roar again cuz it's the same 30% but has a longer duration.

Heat inherit is a very difficult mechanic to utilize and is not something that most people want to be trying to build around unless they specifically want to be challenging themselves.

The other multipliers you mention are all things that are already used or are so niche that you have to go out of your way for. 

There are a number of mods/weapon augments that allow enemy health to be converted to radial true damage. I really don't see the difference between using an armor strip ability or corrosive shards on a raw damage build and a build that uses old Eclipse. One is objectively faster and stronger but both result in the same goal unless you're facing an enemy that cannot be armor stripped. You only picked Eclipse because it dealt the most damage in those instances, just use the next best thing. How exactly is that railroading you into another build? Your objective is the same. The only diversity you're obtaining is casting an ability with a different name, animation, sound, duration, and possibly model aura. But it doesn't sound like these matter to you, just the dps.

There is also Toxin Inherit and Electric Inherit.

I don't want to railroad you into a build; I want to derail the cart you're on and have things fundamentally change. I can only think that you're sole objective is to save time by achieving more DPS. I want challenge in this game. The idea of not being able to one-shot lvl cap Demolishers or Eidolons sounds very enticing. It'd be a nice shake up. Players will continue theory-crafting builds with one-shot potential but it'd be nice if it was never possible.

Don't worry, all you need to do is review bomb Warframe's Steam page enough that DE comes out with an update to reverse the powercreep like they did with the AoE ammo nerfs and the subsequent Incarnons.

Edited February 27 by Ghastly-Ghoul

[floppydonkeyni]

Please don't make the % this low. 30% eclipse is NOT consistent with Roar. Roar is a much more powerful damage increase if the values are the same, since it double dips on status effects and is also teamwide. Yes you do have the option for the damage reduction, but that's all it would be good for really. And especially for most endgame builds that rely on shield gating, eclipse would essentially be useless past base steel path. Roar would just outclass it in almost every aspect of the game. Please consider making it 75% AT LEAST. That value would pretty much be the minimum for consideration to have use cases where it would be better than roar.

[Sinner]

3 minutes ago, Ghastly-Ghoul said:

There are a number of mods/weapon augments that allow enemy health to be converted to radial true damage. I really don't see the difference between using an armor strip ability or corrosive shards on a raw damage build and a build that uses old Eclipse. One is objectively faster and stronger but both result in the same goal unless you're facing an enemy that cannot be armor stripped. You only picked Eclipse because it dealt the most damage in those instances, just use the next best thing. How exactly is that railroading you into another build? Your objective is the same. The only diversity you're obtaining is casting an ability with a different name, animation, sound, duration, and possibly model aura. But it doesn't sound like these matter to you, just the dps.

There is also Toxin Inherit and Electric Inherit.

I don't want to railroad you into a build; I want to derail the cart you're on and have things fundamentally change. I can only think that you're sole objective is to save time by achieving more DPS. I want challenge in this game. The idea of not being able to one-shot lvl cap demolishers or Eidolons sounds very enticing. It'd be a nice shake up. Players will continue theory-crafting builds with one-shot potential but it'd be nice if it was never possible.

Ok so you literally just want player power to be nerfed at all costs. You are not making serious recommendations. If you want fundamental changes then you have to start with enemies and how armor scales before touching warframes since builds are entirely just a result of how these systems work

[Ghastly-Ghoul]

37 minutes ago, Sinner said:

Ok so you literally just want player power to be nerfed at all costs. You are not making serious recommendations. If you want fundamental changes then you have to start with enemies and how armor scales before touching warframes since builds are entirely just a result of how these systems work

My recommendation is the same. Keep this nerf. Continue bringing all DPS subsumes in line with CC/Support so the choice isn't as easy to make. Make some changes to the CC/Support abilities. But if this what DE has in mind, it would seem beneficial to take a more public approach with an agenda and milestones of some kind.

I'm not an expert and making specific recommendations toward this vision isn't something that would turn out well. I just know that I do not recommend listening to the majority complaining about doing less damage when nerfs occur because they are shortsighted .

 

Edited February 28 by Ghastly-Ghoul

[Darthplagueis13]

30% on the subsume feels a bit rough, considering that it applies to far fewer things than Roar does and also doesn't affect allies by default. I mean yeah, there's still the defensive component, but let's be real, noone is going to subsume Eclipse for the DR.

 

How 'bout we do 50 with maybe a scaling cap at 75 or 100, but in exchange the energy cost goes up to 75 in order to match Roar.

 

On a side note regarding Mirage: I feel like Prism could use a make-over. The lengthy casting animation makes it borderline un-usable without Natural Talent and it is absurdly energy hungry compared to other 4th abilities, aside from the fact that it somehow both has a max duration and a constant energy drain. But at base, with no mods and left to run its full duration, this thing consumes 50 energy to activate and then 10/s for 12 seconds for a grande total of 170 energy.

How about we just give it those 12 seconds base, 100 energy activation cost and remove the drain, make it function like a normal ability? Maybe either cutting down the activation speed or making it work like Quorvex' big old laser and make her invulnerable during the animation? I feel like that would make it a lot more reasonable instead of just being the guaranteed subsume slot.

Edited February 28 by Darthplagueis13

[Mirki]

Thanks for listening to the feedback, however I believe there is still work to be done, in many fronts actually

Regarding Eclipse, the Buff number is way too low, Comparing it to Rhino's Roar is a fatal mistake, as it was to compare it to Chroma's Vex Armor when the first change was made. Eclipse is not a squad buff, it takes an augment to do that, it's nowhere near the same utility or overlapping with Roar (just as it didnt have anything comparable to Vex Armor) given this situation copying the number is just making Eclipse a worse Roar, please reconsider a bigger number, it doesnt even have to reach 3 Digits to be fine. 80% or 100% Tops would be the sweet spot.

Regarding Mirage, after all this discussion and dev workshops, it is still unclear how the rest of her kit will function, her Sleight of Hands AND Prism are still affected by lighting, and they dont work at all in the Labs just like Eclipse does, it is vital to address this at this point, because it's 75% of her Kit what's broken, not 25%

Finally, going forward, I want to criticize how DE has handled balancing this ability, there appears to be a missconception of what makes an ability usable or good, it's not entirely numbers, it's all about the particulars and context of each ability, comparing Eclipse to Vex Armor was what first caused this mayhem as they're both extraordinarily different abilities coming from different frames which Kits work for different intents, it should have never happened.
Now the same is ocurring with Eclipse and you are comparing it to Roar, same situation, it should'nt it doesnt help to put two isolated specifications together and just even them, there has to be considerations for all of the parts, not just the numbers.

[Hexerin]

Please also update the damage reduction stat on the Helminth version to cap at 90% DR, instead of keeping the existing 75% DR cap. 75% DR is extremely outdated by modern standards. If a straight buff to the DR isn't palatable, an easily reached compromise is to have it grant something like 50% DR at base, scaling with ability strength up to the 90% DR cap (with the example base value, it would take 180% ability strength to reach the cap).

Edited February 28 by Hexerin

[CaptainAShu]

This is not a fundamental solution. Currently, buffs, availability, etc. that increase damage in warframes are inconsistent in their behavior.
Some buffs are applied to basic damage, some to elemental damage, some to separate multiplication operations, and some to action damage.
This is easy to confuse users unfamiliar with Warframe's damage calculation formula.
In the case of elemental damage, it may be because it follows the calculation method of mod. For basic damage buffs, final damage buffs, etc., it needs to be modified to have a consistent formula.
I understand that it is not easy to change the behavior consistently because it has to be adjusted for numerous buffs and arcanes. Nevertheless, I think consistent notation is a necessary step and I think it is a matter that needs to be reviewed at least once.

[Mimolette]

Huge huge huge thanks to you guys for reverting the changes to Mirage. You've done right by Mirage mains!

And while I can now celebrate this incredible outcome for my favourite frame, I'd also like to chip in and mention that the subsumed version is still a bit too low.

It is definitely in the right direction, but considering how Roar can affect the squad natively, as well as provide a stronger buff via double-dipping and covering other damage sources, I do feel it is fair to bring it up closer to Roar. It makes sense it should be a bit weaker as there is the flexibility of running DR, but realistically no one at high levels will use it.

On that note, maybe you can take a look at Chroma too and give the frame a similar treatment.

Overall, super happy with the changes regarding Mirage, but subsumed Eclipse could be a bit better.

Thanks again.

Edited February 28 by Mimolette

[vylexes]

Look I can understand why you are nerfing helmith eclipse, It is defiantly strong on some builds. But come on this is way beyond unreasonable change, If in fact this ability needed to be nerfed at all I could understand going down to 100% and then working back a little bit at a time but going whole hog here with a drop so drastic to 30% is just not a great idea. 

Not only does working backways feel better for players that don't get stuck with having to change with a bad number that may stay for months on end, But as well as players having to completely rebuild frames at cost to them and no compensation at all.

Honestly this feels like a smack in the face, I don't like to use this phrase too often because most changes DE has made in the past has been on the boarder but over all good for the health of the game but not this one.

[Monolake]

Monkey paw in action lol