Update on the Mirage Eclipse Changes

[(PSN)MYKK678]

14 minutes ago, Sinner said:

Ok so let's discuss it that way then. A lot of people who are subsuming eclipse know exactly what tilesets or areas they are going to be in to get the buffs they are looking for. For fortuna and plains, this buff was very high, like 90+% of the listed buff so around 130% at the worst. So for PT and eidolons we are losing a ton of damage unless this is buffed to like 120%.

For the people who were using it outside of places they know have good lighting, it's still primarily focusing on the damage buff which did fluctuate a lot but lighting in this game is very wild. You would go from DR to damage by walking down a lit hallway.

If you want to average the damage buff around 0% when you don't have it and 150% when you have the max, then maybe it does average to 30% but that's not being honest since we aren't putting any weight whatsoever to where people are choosing to be when they use the subsume. If you also weight it by playtime with the subsume on the build then we should be weighing it near 120% since there are a lot of people using it for eidolons and PT and archon hunts constantly which are all very well lit.

Either way in the end this still comes down to the issue of if this subsume is even worth using in its proposed state and that has been graphed for us showing us that roar is always better on most weapons or at worst literally equal to it. So we can easily definitively say 30% is wildly WAY too low to even consider. 

See the problem with this presents itself at the very beginning. The idea of "lots of people" are apparently mapping out specific areas to stand in maps just to get the bonus. I don't doubt their existence at all, and I'd even agree to the idea that there's a good few of them. But when we start looking at things like the entire playerbase, I cant help but think that most, half, or even a quarter of them are doing that is preposterous. How many times has someone looked into Riven Changes expecting one of theirs to drop in points due to usage, and it doesn't? I can't see the average gamer or the person with 1 or 2 hours per day /per week to play doing any of that.

Your point relies on the idea that it's a split between 0% and 150%/120%. An average. That would require you to know that at least half of players doing what the average player wouldn't be bothered with doing. Theres recent threads popping up the last few weeks about changing Netracells because folks aren't killing in the red zone, yet right now your point relies on the idea that at least half of players are super-aware and specific about where they're standing.

Again just to clarify, I'm not saying 30% is good, bad, or even on par with how it's working now. I'm saying most of the posts in here were acting like they were running around with a consistent damage multiplier and that's being taken away from them. Even putting aside the fact that the 30% will increase with Ab Strength, that's just not how Eclipse is currently working.

[Sinner]

6 minutes ago, (PSN)MYKK678 said:

See the problem with this presents itself at the very beginning. The idea of "lots of people" are apparently mapping out specific areas to stand in maps just to get the bonus. I don't doubt their existence at all, and I'd even agree to the idea that there's a good few of them. But when we start looking at things like the entire playerbase, I cant help but think that most, half, or even a quarter of them are doing that is preposterous. How many times has someone looked into Riven Changes expecting one of theirs to drop in points due to usage, and it doesn't? I can't see the average gamer or the person with 1 or 2 hours per day /per week to play doing any of that.

Your point relies on the idea that it's a split between 0% and 150%/120%. An average. That would require you to know that at least half of players doing what the average player wouldn't be bothered with doing. Theres recent threads popping up the last few weeks about changing Netracells because folks aren't killing in the red zone, yet right now your point relies on the idea that at least half of players are super-aware and specific about where they're standing.

Again just to clarify, I'm not saying 30% is good, bad, or even on par with how it's working now. I'm saying most of the posts in here were acting like they were running around with a consistent damage multiplier and that's being taken away from them. Even putting aside the fact that the 30% will increase with Ab Strength, that's just not how Eclipse is currently working.

If we want to take an average from all players then I don't even think a majority of players have the helminth system to begin with. And I bet the players who do have it, only a fraction of them may have even subsumed mirage on and another fraction probably haven't ever subsumed eclipse.

It doesn't require mapping out what areas have it and what doesn't to the degree your thinking because open worlds are actually really hard to find dark areas at all. The light areas are quite literally the entire surface of the map that isn't directly shaded by a cliff, and those shadows are small and don't even switch you to DR.

In terms of all areas that do provide light, you are getting a solid amount of damage much higher than 30% especially if you average them together so I do think 120% is a fair estimate if you purely want to go off of averages. The value I expect to see is more around 75-90% since I think this is more in line with where a strong damage buff like this should be if we let the subsume keep the ability to swap between DR and damage. 

[0_The_F00l]

I was hoping there would be less multipliers , guess not.

Even if you are not changing the ability multiplier type , can you please look at the various damage multipliers that already exist in game and get it streamlined.

[(PSN)MYKK678]

21 minutes ago, Piggy_osu said:

Also many people saying that base eclipse to helminth's 200% -> 30% is not "consistent" with roar's 50% -> 30%, please keep in mind that base abilities are balanced in the context of one specific frame, while helminth abilities are balanced around how it it would be on every single frame. With that said, making eclipse number scale the same amount as roar is just not it.

The following is true for me regarding eclipse:

• For at least me as a player, I have never used eclipse as a damage reduction subsume. It's way too flaky to be trustworthy and there are better candidates. Gloom? Null star? Quiver? I honestly would not have complained if DE literally just removed the DR from the helminth version. At least with other abilities I know when I died it's because I #*!%ed up instead of "oh this patch of shadows just decided to be bright". And even with that said, 50% is not a really significant amount to be used as a DR ability. Sure it's multiplicative to armor and other damage reduction abilities, but even post fix it's not good (enough) as is.
• As it is right now, every time I use eclipse, I know the tileset I go in will have ample lighting to keep my buff at a reasonable level. Personally, I don't even take it into archon hunts because the seemingly bright outdoor area sometimes makes me take less damage instead of doing more.

After the fix, the issue being addressed is the inconsistency brought by the "inconsistent lighting levels". Honestly that's amazing, but the trade-off being that eclipse is now completely gutted as a damage ability. You can argue that it's now usable as a "versatile 'pick between doing a bit more damage or taking a bit less damage whenever' ability", but the reality is that not many frames need both damage buff and dr, and that's not even considering it's not really a significant amount of either. If that's the goal of the eclipse rework. then so be it.

To put more salt on the wound, dot damage (viral/slash, viral/heat, heat inherit etc.) currently dominates the damage meta. Roar literally scales that number quadratically while eclipse is just a flat line. Yes, you can remedy that with a bane mod but the reality is, with the same mod setup and the current numbers, roar will always be a better ability than eclipse. Earlier I posted a graph about how damage multiplier will scale with ability strength for each ability, I will make it publicly available HERE in case any of you guys want to play around with numbers to see how roar and eclipse compare. (and also in case my math is #*!%ed up and need to be corrected).

Say you really wanted eclipse to be consistent with roar. If eclipse is buffed to 50% multi @100% astrength, it will be better than roar (by at most like 20%) with the same setup until 301% astrength where roar will outscale eclipse. You want to encourage build variety? there you go. it's a single person damage buff that's similar to roar amount but works also with non-dot weapons.

Right but you just pointed out the bonus and rushed past it.

Eclipse's DR wasn't reliable because of the aforementioned inconsistency with lighting, you're 100% correct, but now it will be. Everyone, including myself btw, picked other powers for DR for frames because of said inconsistency. This is what I'm talking about when I first mentioned variables not being taken into account. Everyone's so focused on the reduction to the damage multiplier they haven't noticed that the DR is going to be getting a huge boost.

So you're getting a damage multiplier that's a little worse than Roar, and a Damage Reduction a little worse than Nullstar, in one power. So the question becomes, that sounds about right though, right? You can go get a power with Damage Multiplier but no DR, a power with DR but no Damage Multiplier, or you'll now have this.

[-Im_in-]

Why not just give us opportunity to choose what kind of boost we want to get from helminth version of eclipse (During ability binding), damage or resistance, and thereby weaken them not so much? Whereas mirage, being registered owner, receives both bonuses with their maximum values as usual.

[Traumtulpe]

10 hours ago, NovaUmbral said:

30% is really low, Roar is a bane boost and also affects warframe powers, eclipse does not. I understand the idea behind keeping its multiplicative boost due to feedback, but the community did not ask for its % to be lowered by THIS MUCH.

This. Come on DE, how could you overlook this?

Roar ability damage: 130%                            Eclipse ability damage: 100%

Roar direct weapon damage: 130%               Eclipse direct weapon damage: 130%

Roar dot damage (ability or weapon): 169%  Eclipse dot damage (weapon only): 130%

You might, literally, as well make Eclipse DR only for the Helminth, and delete it's damage buff entirely. Lite-effing-rally. You effectively did exactly that already.

Edited February 28 by Traumtulpe

[(PSN)MYKK678]

24 minutes ago, Sinner said:

If we want to take an average from all players then I don't even think a majority of players have the helminth system to begin with. And I bet the players who do have it, only a fraction of them may have even subsumed mirage on and another fraction probably haven't ever subsumed eclipse.

It doesn't require mapping out what areas have it and what doesn't to the degree your thinking because open worlds are actually really hard to find dark areas at all. The light areas are quite literally the entire surface of the map that isn't directly shaded by a cliff, and those shadows are small and don't even switch you to DR.

In terms of all areas that do provide light, you are getting a solid amount of damage much higher than 30% especially if you average them together so I do think 120% is a fair estimate if you purely want to go off of averages. The value I expect to see is more around 75-90% since I think this is more in line with where a strong damage buff like this should be if we let the subsume keep the ability to swap between DR and damage. 

I agree about the whole helminth situation but when I'm talking about the whole playerbase I actually just meant those who use helminth and have it. To be fair I could have been more clear about that.

As to whether it's 120% or not, that's going to be an impossible point to argue for or against. Neither of us have access to data to support either view. Both of our points on the matter, at best, are basically guesses.

I wrote a reply to piggy_osu there about one variable being completely overlooked though, the fact that the DR part of the power has now been boosted heavily by this change. Something everyone seems to be overlooking is the fact that after this change, any frame that has Eclipse helminth'd onto it will have 5 powers, not 4. Someone saw Eclipse being compared to Roar in the initial post and obviously had a kneejerk reaction, a tunnel vision led "but it'll be worse than Roar" thought, and never considered that now one of the most inconsistent DR powers will be becoming as stable of an option as the others, attached to a Damage Multiplier.

[Sinner]

8 minutes ago, (PSN)MYKK678 said:

I agree about the whole helminth situation but when I'm talking about the whole playerbase I actually just meant those who use helminth and have it. To be fair I could have been more clear about that.

As to whether it's 120% or not, that's going to be an impossible point to argue for or against. Neither of us have access to data to support either view. Both of our points on the matter, at best, are basically guesses.

I wrote a reply to piggy_osu there about one variable being completely overlooked though, the fact that the DR part of the power has now been boosted heavily by this change. Something everyone seems to be overlooking is the fact that after this change, any frame that has Eclipse helminth'd onto it will have 5 powers, not 4. Someone saw Eclipse being compared to Roar in the initial post and obviously had a kneejerk reaction, a tunnel vision led "but it'll be worse than Roar" thought, and never considered that now one of the most inconsistent DR powers will be becoming as stable of an option as the others, attached to a Damage Multiplier.

You can't use both DR and damage at the same time, you have to pick 1 at a time. Again the fact that the damage from the ability was and still is the main factor does not change with the 75% Dr offered from choosing to not use the damage. The ability to swap between these 2 stats should not be valued so highly that we have to nerf the damage of the ability this drastically because a lot of setups depended on this damage buff being such a high multiplier. Clearly they realize this with mirage herself since that is left at 200% (which is good, no complaints there). 

And even if the DR was this strong, by nerfing the damage you quite literally lock in the fact that the subsume just IS a Dr ability and nothing more since if I wanted damage then I would use roar 10 times out of 10, but if the ability to swap is so valuable then maybe the 75% is too strong so that should be nerfed to 30% as well. It's the same thought process just with the focus flipped.

Being able to swap the buff is functionally useless since the player would either want 1 or the other all the time, and if they wanted to swap between them then we already have that system balanced with energy costs and a full body 1s animation. That alone should be enough reason to give us a respectable damage buff of 75% or more. 

 

It's also heavily worth pointing out that player DR in this game quickly becomes more and more useless the higher the level the enemy goes. Simply going into SP conjunction survival or even the new SP netracells thing that they are bringing with the update would be enough to still 1 shot you after shield gate through that DR, and if you modded health and armor then you still die very quickly since this is a hoard shooter (although sometimes it doesn't feel that way). This is all just to say that while yes it is giving DR as an option, not only do a handful of people not care about the ability to swap between DR and damage, but the DR is also literally useless in higher level content and thus should not be considered valuable enough to be worth judging.

Eclipse IS damage. 

[Piggy_osu]

55 minutes ago, (PSN)MYKK678 said:

Right but you just pointed out the bonus and rushed past it.

Eclipse's DR wasn't reliable because of the aforementioned inconsistency with lighting, you're 100% correct, but now it will be. Everyone, including myself btw, picked other powers for DR for frames because of said inconsistency. This is what I'm talking about when I first mentioned variables not being taken into account. Everyone's so focused on the reduction to the damage multiplier they haven't noticed that the DR is going to be getting a huge boost.

So you're getting a damage multiplier that's a little worse than Roar, and a Damage Reduction a little worse than Nullstar, in one power. So the question becomes, that sounds about right though, right? You can go get a power with Damage Multiplier but no DR, a power with DR but no Damage Multiplier, or you'll now have this.

1 hour ago, Piggy_osu said:

After the fix, the issue being addressed is the inconsistency brought by the "inconsistent lighting levels". Honestly that's amazing, but the trade-off being that eclipse is now completely gutted as a damage ability. You can argue that it's now usable as a "versatile 'pick between doing a bit more damage or taking a bit less damage whenever' ability", but the reality is that not many frames need both damage buff and dr, and that's not even considering it's not really a significant amount of either. If that's the goal of the eclipse rework. then so be it.

[(PSN)MYKK678]

21 minutes ago, Sinner said:

You can't use both DR and damage at the same time, you have to pick 1 at a time. Again the fact that the damage from the ability was and still is the main factor does not change with the 75% Dr offered from choosing to not use the damage. The ability to swap between these 2 stats should not be valued so highly that we have to nerf the damage of the ability this drastically because a lot of setups depended on this damage buff being such a high multiplier. Clearly they realize this with mirage herself since that is left at 200% (which is good, no complaints there). 

And even if the DR was this strong, by nerfing the damage you quite literally lock in the fact that the subsume just IS a Dr ability and nothing more since if I wanted damage then I would use roar 10 times out of 10, but if the ability to swap is so valuable then maybe the 75% is too strong so that should be nerfed to 30% as well. It's the same thought process just with the focus flipped.

Being able to swap the buff is functionally useless since the player would either want 1 or the other all the time, and if they wanted to swap between them then we already have that system balanced with energy costs and a full body 1s animation. That alone should be enough reason to give us a respectable damage buff of 75% or more. 

 

It's also heavily worth pointing out that player DR in this game quickly becomes more and more useless the higher the level the enemy goes. Simply going into SP conjunction survival or even the new SP netracells thing that they are bringing with the update would be enough to still 1 shot you after shield gate through that DR, and if you modded health and armor then you still die very quickly since this is a hoard shooter (although sometimes it doesn't feel that way). This is all just to say that while yes it is giving DR as an option, not only do a handful of people not care about the ability to swap between DR and damage, but the DR is also literally useless in higher level content and thus should not be considered valuable enough to be worth judging.

Eclipse IS damage. 

I must be misunderstanding the argument here. If you're saying higher content can just one shot you, which it shouldn't be unless you're level capping but we'll put that to one side, then what use is increasing the damage multiplier?

According to the example you literally just gave, you'll still be dying immediately. In your example you very clearly state that any enemy just has to get one hit on you and you're done. So how does Eclipse being 50% instead of 30% stop that? I'm just genuinely not understanding what that example was supposed to be explaining?

[(PSN)MYKK678]

38 minutes ago, Piggy_osu said:

 

I already read all of that previously.

Eclipse being "gutted" for damage as well as 75% DR being "not really a significant amount" aren't even close to being accurate if we start to be completely honest. 

The point I'm trying to bring up is simple, we don't have actual data/metrics on either. As far as we know, based on the amount of time every player who has helminth'd Eclipse onto another frame, it could very well average out as a 20% (base) increase, or it could be a 40% (base) increase. And I can't fathom theres one person who has any reliable data on how well Eclipse's DR has performed so far due to how inconsistent it has always been, making this change a literal unprecedented bonus.

I don't doubt, and never have, that those who bullet jump from light source to light source are going to notice a difference. They are. But if they're seriously this reliant on one power, not only should that merit a Dev to look at that power in the first place, but it also means the power is being used to bypass mechanics in the game that should be used to get similar results. In other words, this is a lazy way to bypass the importance of Loadout Choice and Variety. QA Teams don't just jump into content, get wrecked, and say "yeah ship it, it's fine".

So again, right now Eclipse is one power that very inconsistently bounces between 2 functions, when changed it'll be 2 powers you can easily choose between. I'm not pretending you can use both at the same time, you can't, it's a toggle, it'll be one or the other. But just like there are Frames I'd use and you wouldn't, and vice versa, there are powers Person A would have use of that Person B wouldn't, and vice versa. The only difference here is folks "thinking" they won't use the DR part of it does not diminish its importance nor its value. Whereas all the arguments so far about Eclipses Damage Multiplier reduction and how many people are claiming it'll "destroy or wreck loadouts" only solidifies the idea that the old helminth'd Eclipse was probably too strong and actually needed to be looked at. One remains as more important than some think, the other it now seems to be important that it's reduced in some way.

Edited February 28 by (PSN)MYKK678
.

[Eipplw]

So 30% final multiplier huh ? This is worse than a 350% stack multiplier.

It just looks like a joke... and a lazy change to try to "please" the playerbase, in vain.

On another end, it's good that Mirage isnt impacted by this nerf, at least.

[Vryheid]

This is a weird one for me. I honestly preferred the +350% additive buff to this +30% multiplicative buff because it was a niche option that could be super powerful on weapon builds tailored around it. This however really makes the damage buff portion of the ability feel like a strictly worse version of Roar for reasons that have been repeatedly mentioned in this thread. The lower energy cost on Eclipse and ability to refresh it whenever you like are nice, but Roar's faction damage double-dipping on status procs and ability to affect allies without needing a Warframe mod slot trump those advantages entirely. The DR portion of the new Eclipse will still see a fair amount of use, I think, because 75% DR is still really strong on frame like Citrine or Mesa that naturally like to run a ton of Ability Strength and already have a 90% DR source they can stack this with. Together these buffs will let them easily health tank enormous amounts of damage from any content currently in the game.

Maybe the intent with this change is to encourage players to strategically swap between both Eclipse buffs on frames like this that can easily benefit from both the DR and the damage portion of the ability? Like, keeping the 75% DR up most of the time, but briefly switching to the damage multiplier to burst down a Thrax or Captain Vor in Duviri Circuit or some other situation like that? If that's the case, nerfing Eclipse's damage this hard makes a lot more sense, but I think this change in playstyle and intent would need to be clearly communicated to the playerbase because that is not the role people subsuming on Eclipse use it for currently. Players using Eclipse on their Warframes now want an extremely powerful, unconditional multiplicative buff to weapon damage that works on basically every frame and against every enemy and reducing the damage buff this hard makes it pretty much obsoleted by Roar in this respect.

Edited February 28 by Vryheid

[1984]

you going to nerf it from 150% to staggering > 30% damage increase? That hell of a nerf...

at least don't make helminth version of eclipse inferior to roar that can basically buff anything not just guns...

[YNCShadow]

Thanks for always listening players sound, but 30% is way too low. When player face daily mission, we get alot of ways to increase our damage, but with Profit orb(maybe also Eidolon hunting), we need eclipse. I think 120% is the greatest option for Helminth. 

[Ghastly-Ghoul]

6 hours ago, Sinner said:

You can't use both DR and damage at the same time, you have to pick 1 at a time. Again the fact that the damage from the ability was and still is the main factor does not change with the 75% Dr offered from choosing to not use the damage. The ability to swap between these 2 stats should not be valued so highly that we have to nerf the damage of the ability this drastically because a lot of setups depended on this damage buff being such a high multiplier. Clearly they realize this with mirage herself since that is left at 200% (which is good, no complaints there). 

And even if the DR was this strong, by nerfing the damage you quite literally lock in the fact that the subsume just IS a Dr ability and nothing more since if I wanted damage then I would use roar 10 times out of 10, but if the ability to swap is so valuable then maybe the 75% is too strong so that should be nerfed to 30% as well. It's the same thought process just with the focus flipped.

Being able to swap the buff is functionally useless since the player would either want 1 or the other all the time, and if they wanted to swap between them then we already have that system balanced with energy costs and a full body 1s animation. That alone should be enough reason to give us a respectable damage buff of 75% or more. 

 

It's also heavily worth pointing out that player DR in this game quickly becomes more and more useless the higher the level the enemy goes. Simply going into SP conjunction survival or even the new SP netracells thing that they are bringing with the update would be enough to still 1 shot you after shield gate through that DR, and if you modded health and armor then you still die very quickly since this is a hoard shooter (although sometimes it doesn't feel that way). This is all just to say that while yes it is giving DR as an option, not only do a handful of people not care about the ability to swap between DR and damage, but the DR is also literally useless in higher level content and thus should not be considered valuable enough to be worth judging.

Eclipse IS damage. 

You can health tank against enemies with levels well into the thousands. You argue DR is useless but I'd argue dealing significantly more damage than the amount of health points an enemy has is even more useless. You aren't considering other playstyles in your arguments either. Some people find Warframe to be a much more comfortable experience when they don't have to see the screen flash and be forced to push a button every 2 seconds to recover shields. Think about the people with disabilities as well.

You also argue that there is Null Star and Gloom again so you should read my previous comment about them. Remember when I talked about functionality other than for gameplay reasons? Gloom is an annoying ability that takes away user agency of the whole squad. Maybe someone who wants DR doesn't want to bother other players with a 95% slow. It sounds like forcing players to use other abilities rather than benefiting from the DR a damage buffing ability like Eclipse takes away build diversity instead. Sound familiar? You're also grasping at straws when you say that "a handful of people do not care about the ability to swap between DR and damage." You have no sources to back up this claim and you're only trying to push an agenda.

Have you even tried health tanking before with multiple sources of DR and armor? It doesn't surprise me you're a Volt main. The game doesn't revolve around Eidolon speedrunning and you still have DPS options for it without Eclipse.

Edited February 28 by Ghastly-Ghoul

[Darkrai2002]

Okay cool, now revert the chromas vex armour 

[FireIce_023]

Just like many other pointed out, I also feel that 30% is TOO much of a nerf for eclipse.

The "costs less than roar" is a joke of a statement with how (positively) inflated today's energy economy is and "it also comes with DR" is also not strong argument, because it's not both at the same time, rather one or the other.

With how fast paced the game is, "but You can just switch them around when needed" is going to be too inconvenient, besides, most frames already have either some survivability option or damage option either via abilities or stats, so it's going to be used as mainly defensive OR offensive option.

Please buff to at least 50%, better yet 75%.

[--BIG--Doug-Desu]

30%?!?!?!?!!????

[Theplayernb]

16 hours ago, (PSN)Shaun-T-Wilson said:

This change is good, but mirage as a whole has a problem shes meant to be a agile parkour from but most if not all of her abilities stops or significantly slows down her movement -could you add the QoL change of casting ability's not affecting her speed/movement

use cast speed shards, i put just one with 25% casting speed and helps alot, there no reason to use 5 red shards or 300% plus strenght on mirage, the base 200% multiplicative damage already is absurde, imagine with 200% plus strenght, its overkill, thats why they change the helmith version of eclipse to base 30%

[Captain_Dark21]

2 minutes ago, Theplayernb said:

use cast speed shards, i put just one with 25% casting speed and helps alot, there no reason to use 5 red shards or 300% plus strenght on mirage, the base 200% multiplicative damage already is absurde, imagine with 200% plus strenght, its overkill, thats why they change the helmith version of eclipse to base 30%

I got all red shards I love overkill 🤣

[Doomelf]

With the toggle eclipse remaining at 200% on mirage is too strong, and 30% for the subsumed version too weak. Adjusting them to 100% and 50% would be more reasonable.

[Captain_Dark21]

5 minutes ago, Doomelf said:

With the toggle eclipse remaining at 200% on mirage is too strong, and 30% for the subsumed version too weak. Adjusting them to 100% and 50% would be more reasonable.

That's too much of a nerf for Mirage 200 is fine that's her purpose. She's a weapon buffer she can make bad weapons viable

[Sinner]

6 hours ago, (PSN)MYKK678 said:

I must be misunderstanding the argument here. If you're saying higher content can just one shot you, which it shouldn't be unless you're level capping but we'll put that to one side, then what use is increasing the damage multiplier?

According to the example you literally just gave, you'll still be dying immediately. In your example you very clearly state that any enemy just has to get one hit on you and you're done. So how does Eclipse being 50% instead of 30% stop that? I'm just genuinely not understanding what that example was supposed to be explaining?

Because in this game it is much easier to avoid getting hit or avoid the damage altogether than it is to try and survive hits. That's why DR is bad but gloom is very good, since enemies shoot at you very slowly and you get like a year to react to everything around you.

For world bosses, eclipse is there to help 1 shot targets easier so you can be faster at these things like PT shields and eidolon limbs. Reducing the multiplier lower than 120% here hurts these metas very hard.

For normal missions, there were strategies to keep eclipse at certain light levels like using invisibility in a bright spot since for some reason becoming invis locks in the amount of light your character has, or by heat proccing yourself, or by using certain abilities with high particle effects turned up. This is very character specific so it wasn't really worth bringing up, but it's a factor.

Being able to kill targets faster like demolishers or eximus is one of the best ways to stay alive and get energy orb drop rates. Since it's a weapon damage multiplier, it's whole identity is around just raw damage gunplay so this nerf basically kills an entire playstyle. 

[Sinner]

3 hours ago, Ghastly-Ghoul said:

You can health tank against enemies with levels well into the thousands. You argue DR is useless but I'd argue dealing significantly more damage than the amount of health points an enemy has is even more useless. You aren't considering other playstyles in your arguments either. Some people find Warframe to be a much more comfortable experience when they don't have to see the screen flash and be forced to push a button every 2 seconds to recover shields. Think about the people with disabilities as well.

You also argue that there is Null Star and Gloom again so you should read my previous comment about them. Remember when I talked about functionality other than for gameplay reasons? Gloom is an annoying ability that takes away user agency of the whole squad. Maybe someone who wants DR doesn't want to bother other players with a 95% slow. It sounds like forcing players to use other abilities rather than benefiting from the DR a damage buffing ability like Eclipse takes away build diversity instead. Sound familiar? You're also grasping at straws when you say that "a handful of people do not care about the ability to swap between DR and damage." You have no sources to back up this claim and you're only trying to push an agenda.

Have you even tried health tanking before with multiple sources of DR and armor? It doesn't surprise me you're a Volt main. The game doesn't revolve around Eidolon speedrunning and you still have DPS options for it without Eclipse.

Great then you can go ahead and use your subsumes and I'll make my arguments for buffing the damage on eclipse.

If you don't want to do hard content then you don't need to optimize your damage or overall setup. It's fine if you don't want to, but that's no reason to nerf other people's builds.

Also why are you searching up my own usage rates? Just cuz I have like 20% playtime on volt doesn't mean I don't have playtime with health tanking. Very few frames can health tank to the 1000s and that's with a lot of struggle and loadout synergies to keep themselves alive so a 75% DR wouldn't make it any more viable since by then even 1 round would scale their damage beyond what any amount of DR less than 100% could provide.

You seem to want to attack me or other players playstyles because we do harder content than to actually talk about the issues where this change matters but you're so focused on lower levels that it's not even a helpful discussion.