Update on the Mirage Eclipse Changes

[[DE]Juice]

Hello Tenno!

On Devstream #177, we outlined our upcoming changes to Mirage’s Eclipse. In making the ability a toggle (Tap or Hold) we also changed the buffs to be an additive bonus (similar to Chroma’s Vex Armor) instead of a final multiplicative. To elaborate further with some maths, we changed it from 200% final multiplicative to 350% stack multiplicative.

After reviewing Community feedback and discussing it internally, we are reverting the latter change. Eclipse will remain a 200% final multiplicative for Mirage, and the Helminth Subsume version will be multiplicative and match the exact number for Roar, which is 30%. Please note that it won't be the exact same upgrade as Roar, the differences between the abilities will remain.

Subject to change as we continue playing around with it, but we wanted to provide an update as we continue development and read feedback.

Thank you!

[Youngsta]

Thank you for listening! This is much more reasonable. Always appreciate DE listening to the players

Edited February 27 by SlimReaper2000

[Waeleto]

Thank you so much for listening!

[PontiacJones]

That's awesome. Very reasonable!

[AnimeAvengers]

perfectly balanced as all things should be. thanks for listening.

[basvard]

What is "stack multiplicative"?

[(PSN)Shaun-T-Wilson]

16 minutes ago, [DE]Juice said:

Hello Tenno!

On Devstream #177, we outlined our upcoming changes to Mirage’s Eclipse. In making the ability a toggle (Tap or Hold) we also changed the buffs to be an additive bonus (similar to Chroma’s Vex Armor) instead of a final multiplicative. To elaborate further with some maths, we changed it from 200% final multiplicative to 350% stack multiplicative.

After reviewing Community feedback and discussing it internally, we are reverting the latter change. Eclipse will remain a 200% final multiplicative for Mirage, and the Helminth Subsume version will be multiplicative and match the exact number for Roar, which is 30%. Please note that it won't be the exact same upgrade as Roar, the differences between the abilities will remain.

Subject to change as we continue playing around with it, but we wanted to provide an update as we continue development and read feedback.

Thank you!

This change is good, but mirage as a whole has a problem shes meant to be a agile parkour from but most if not all of her abilities stops or significantly slows down her movement -could you add the QoL change of casting ability's not affecting her speed/movement

[Numerounius]

Awesome! Glad to hear there is more changes coming. Can't wait to see the full patch note regard the changes. There are some other things that I am hoping to see such as if the DR cap in helminth is being removed or not, we know the DR is getting changes since that was mentioned in the devstream, which isn't mentioned here, but not to the extent of changing the helminth DR cap which is capped at 75% DR in which don't even need any additional ability strength to hit.

Edited February 27 by Numerounius

[Starz]

30% is way too low, Roar works on more than just your weapon, as well as faction damage double dipping on Damage over time, this just further pushes eclipse down. Right direction but numbers are too low.

 

Not to mention Roar is a team wide buff without an augment and even when you do use the eclipse argument your team has to stay within range to even get the buff instead of it being persistent until the duration ends or something resets your buffs.

 

If having Damage Reduction and Damage boosting at the flip of a switch is a concern make the Helminth version function like Rest & Rage where emissive determines which part you get.

Edited February 27 by Starz
Added team wide part.

[Theweedle]

Thank you for listening to feedback! this is an excellent change! I was worried mirage would be unfairly caught in the crosshairs of a brutal nerf just because her eclipse happens to be a helminth ability

[MortalMercenary]

Any chance the cap on the DR side will get removed as well for helminth?

[Casardis]

45 minutes ago, Starz said:

30% is way too low, Roar works on more than just your weapon, as well as faction damage double dipping on Damage over time, this just further pushes eclipse down. Right direction but numbers are too low.

Eclipse will be a toggle instead of duration-based, so it could be better on some setup. Additionally, the initial cast is only 25 energy VS Roar being 75. Eclipse still retains its damage reduction feature too. I think the tradeoff is more than reasonable, and if you want maximum damage, just subsume Roar.

That said, I wouldn't mind a slight increase to the Helminth numbers. 30 seems low, so maybe 60?

Edited February 27 by Casardis

[NovaUmbral]

30% is really low, Roar is a bane boost and also affects warframe powers, eclipse does not. I understand the idea behind keeping its multiplicative boost due to feedback, but the community did not ask for its % to be lowered by THIS MUCH.

[migoq_aki]

6 minutes ago, Starz said:

30% is way too low, Roar works on more than just your weapon, as well as faction damage double dipping on Damage over time, this just further pushes eclipse down. Right direction but numbers are too low.

this, I don't want to sound like "go back lul" but literally with 30% base is worse than the previous additive 300% base, this is how math works unfortunately, this is nerfing it even more

Edited February 27 by migoq_aki

[XennethKeisere]

I'm sorry, no.

30% is too low.

Every other Helminth You've nerfed compared to the original is a 50% reduction. This is 85%.

Show some consistency.

[Sinner]

While I agree that eclipse would require a nerf if it stops scaling with external factors, 30% is too much of a nerf.

 

If we compare directly with roar, then eclipse will ALWAYS be worse than roar unless you specifically want to damage crates and inanimate objects.

Roar is faction damage so for most weapons, it is both an equal damage boost and also applies again to DoT effects. This is also before mentioning that roar is an AoE buff for allies that lingers on anyone in range on cast.

Eclipse requires an augment mod to buff allies and also only buffs these allies while they remain nearby. It's multiplier is also not double dipping on these DoT effects so there's literally no reason to be using it.

 

The only way this eclipse gets subsumed is if you are expecting to get roar from another ally.

 

I would like to suggest something between 50-100%, maybe 75% total which would be exactly half the original maximum buff of 150%

[Ampathetiic]

I'm glad that Mirage isn't getting nerfed- I didn't think she deserved it- but I hope a lesson is learned here in terms of clear communication, both on the developer and player side. Warframe staff shouldn't be telling us they definitely aren't going to nerf something before they nerf something, and players should expect better from the product they give their time/money to.

I'm pessimistic, but I'd like to reinforce the message anyway.

[C.5-17]

roar isnt a fair comparison because of all its interaction with DoT and abilities plus being shared with teammates, for consistency eclipse should see the same 40% reduction that roar received, going from 200% --> 120% and 50%-->30% respectively. ive seen others in this thread mention that many helminth abilities are havled and while 100% could also be acceptable, since DE themselves are comparing eclipse directly to roar i think it should receive the same treatment. 30% is frankly much much too low to ever consider

[MrsSilverAndro]

Ill chime in and say i think the 30% is about fair, it seems like itll create an interesting choice between "maximum damage for more energy" and "less damage for less energy but with a DR option". The majority of our power is already in weapons, so if eclipse is too close to roar in damage I strongly suspect it could completely outclass it, especially without DoT.

I might recommend a tweak to maybe 40% base on helminth, but this is certainly an improvement over the previous change.

Edited February 27 by MrsSilverAndro

[Tiltskillet]

I don't have an opinion on the Helminth version yet.  But more importantly ...thank you for revising your thinking on the base ability changes.

[SDGDen]

13 minutes ago, XennethKeisere said:

I'm sorry, no.

30% is too low.

Every other Helminth You've nerfed compared to the original is a 50% reduction. This is 85%.

Show some consistency.

yes DE, show some consistency.

by nerfing nourish, roar and other overtuned helminth abilities by 85% too.

 

anyways, this change still nerfs the helminth version but keeps the power on mirages own version, im still of the opinion they really should remove eclipse from helminth and give it a range-nerfed version of her 2 instead but oh well. this'll work. 

[ThatLuJan]

17 minutes ago, Starz said:

30% is way too low, Roar works on more than just your weapon, as well as faction damage double dipping on Damage over time, this just further pushes eclipse down. Right direction but numbers are too low.

Currently the only reason Eclipse is even compared to Roar is because it can reach a much higher % compared to roar. Roar being a universal faction multiplier means that it'll always have more opportunities to double/triple dip on certain setups. So even nerfing the helminth versions base values is already a step too far in the name of "balance"

[---RNGesus---]

41 minutes ago, [DE]Juice said:

Helminth Subsume version will be multiplicative and match the exact number for Roar, which is 30%.

[Beelzebabe]

On 2024-02-27 at 2:09 PM, Starz said:

30% is way too low, Roar works on more than just your weapon, as well as faction damage double dipping on Damage over time, this just further pushes eclipse down. Right direction but numbers are too low.

This is extremely important.

At only 30% there is no reason to ever choose Eclipse over Roar as a damage buff. Both are final damage multipliers with the same scaling values, but Roar is *faction damage* for DoT effects and also applies to abilities vs only weapons. Roar also lasts base 5s longer and applies to teammates without the need of an augment. The 25 energy vs 75 energy cost is irrelevant. At this point you'd only be subsuming Eclipse for the DR portion, which, given how fundamentally defective health tanking becomes at higher levels, is very niche - especially considering the current arbitrary hard cap of 75%.

Subsumed Eclipse needs to be AT LEAST 50% damage at base to have any place in the system over Roar, and frankly should be higher than even that (75%-100%, probably). The DR also needs to be uncapped and allowed to scale to the default 95% maximum, albeit with higher investment than Mirage requires (and there is precedent for this, re: Wyrd Scythes still being able to hit 95% slow cap on other frames with more investment than Dagath). Apparently, contrary to how rationality & extant game logic dictates infused Wyrd Scythes would/should scale, this is not the case - It turns out that Wyrd Scythes isn't coded to be capped at 95% slow, but rather at 272% Strength, meaning the Helminth version is arbitrarily hard capped at a bizarre 71% slow because of course it is. Silly me for giving this company the benefit of the doubt about anything making sense ever.

And while we're here, tangentially related but I swear there's a point to this: Why is Wyrd Scythes infusion nerfed at all? Y'all want people to use more than like 5-10 Helminth abilities, and we should have reason to, given that there's fifty-effing-five of them - But then you give us straight up trash like Mind Control (when Psychic Bolts is on the table!) and prelaunch nerf potentially interesting stuff like Wyrd Scythes and Fractured Blast (ESPECIALLY Fractured Blast) into the grave before they were ever so much as a consideration, and by design would never have been oppressive. The one and ONLY answer to successfully getting folks to use other Helminth abilities is NOT to continue this wildly out of touch kneejerk nerf song and dance, but to give us more >compelling< Helminth abilities. This would require revising many existing selections, since the vast majority are hyper-niche/meme-y at best and unslottable more often than not, but it's worthwhile labor and it's the only way. Otherwise you're just gonna restrict us to fewer and fewer real choices instead of creating more, all while leaving a lasting sour taste in the community's collective mouths. Infusion nerfs should be a tool that is CAREFULLY utilized to allow access to better subsumes which would otherwise be unjustifiable due to power level or compromising frame identity, not something you just *do* on a whim because blah blah blah unnuanced """usage statistics""" or "well, I mean... it kinda looks like Roar if you tilt your head and squint, soooo?".

The overwhelming majority of people in this thread (who, you know, actually play your game for collective tens-hundreds of thousands of hours) are consistently telling you the same things for a reason, and make no mistake their labor is straight up charity, so maybe idk listen? Like, actually listen, for once?

Please consider the actual math & functionality involved here instead of just arbitrarily "matching" Roar because they look similar at a glance. This monkey's paw design philosophy y'all have become known for has gotten really old.

Edited March 13 by Beelzebabe
Correcting misinformation

[OgreEye]

Eclipse subsume is dead lmao