Update on the Mirage Eclipse Changes

[--SA--BotRunz]

ye nah aint no way a real human sat down and thought this is a reasonable way to nerf eclipse
ggs de 

[Gaz_TTV]

nice excited to keep using mirage in arbitrations with 1000% extra dmg 

[Agall]

Just now, Gaz_TTV said:

nice excited to keep using mirage in arbitrations with 1000% extra dmg 

But is it all actually necessary? Subsume or not?

[ThatLuJan]

7 minutes ago, Beelzebabe said:

This is extremely important.

At only 30% there is no reason to ever choose Eclipse over Roar as a damage buff. Both are final damage multipliers with the same scaling values, but Roar is *faction damage* for DoT effects and also applies to abilities vs only weapons. Roar also lasts base 5s longer and applies to teammates without the need of an augment. The 25 energy vs 75 energy cost is irrelevant. At this point you'd only be subsuming Eclipse for the DR portion, which, given how fundamentally defective health tanking becomes at higher levels, is very niche - especially considering the current arbitrary hard cap of 75%.

Subsumed Eclipse needs to be AT LEAST 50% damage at base to have any place in the system over Roar, and frankly should be higher than even that (75%-100%, probably). The DR also needs to be uncapped and allowed to scale to the default 95% maximum, albeit with higher investment than Mirage requires (and there is precedent for this, re: Wyrd Scythes still being able to hit 95% slow cap on other frames with more investment than Dagath).

Please consider the actual math & functionality involved here instead of just arbitrarily "matching" Roar because they look similar at a glance. This monkey's paw design philosophy y'all have become known for has gotten really old.

DE leaving the current dmg formula for eclipse while making it a toggle is good. However I agree that nerfing the helminth version, again, is a boneheaded idea on DE's part. DE have constantly shown that they dont understand why somethings end up being good time & time again. The ONLY reason why people use Eclipse over roar currently is because it can reach high %'s, ->on paper<-, meanwhile the dmg increase barely passes if not matches roar in mission. At this point DE should just make Eclipse a toggle & leave the rest alone

Edited February 27 by ThatLuJan

[Voltage]

7 minutes ago, Beelzebabe said:

This is extremely important.

At only 30% there is no reason to ever choose Eclipse over Roar as a damage buff. Both are final damage multipliers with the same scaling values, but Roar is *faction damage* for DoT effects and also applies to abilities vs only weapons. Roar also lasts base 5s longer and applies to teammates without the need of an augment. The 25 energy vs 75 energy cost is irrelevant. At this point you'd only be subsuming Eclipse for the DR portion, which, given how fundamentally defective health tanking becomes at higher levels, is very niche - especially considering the current arbitrary hard cap of 75%.

Subsumed Eclipse needs to be AT LEAST 50% damage at base to have any place in the system over Roar, and frankly should be higher than even that (75%-100%, probably). The DR also needs to be uncapped and allowed to scale to the default 95% maximum, albeit with higher investment than Mirage requires (and there is precedent for this, re: Wyrd Scythes still being able to hit 95% slow cap on other frames with more investment than Dagath).

Please consider the actual math & functionality involved here instead of just arbitrarily "matching" Roar because they look similar at a glance. This monkey's paw design philosophy y'all have become known for has gotten really old.

"Need" is a strong word. I'm going to be honest, but I think the only way to properly address the popularity of Eclipse, Roar, Nourish, Thermal Sunder, etc. is to replace them with a different ability altogether. Reliable final damage, separate from Faction Damage/Roar is a very strong ability, even if the bonus was a mere 10%, especially with how late-game Helminth is for players to optimize around and what powercreep looks like lately.

People complained in a kneejerk fashion without understanding the massive boost in reliability and bug-fixing that high base damage would have offered to the table. This massive nerf in percentage to please that crowd is quite justified. I'm for once agreeing with this change, even though it's a massive nerf to my Eclipse Warframes.

Edited February 27 by Voltage

[BongoSkaggs]

Thanks for not nerfing Mirage. Very happy about that change.

The subsume nerf is probably overkill and will just make Roar the defacto damage buffing subsume even moreso. But, to be perfectly honest, I do not give a damn.

[Numerounius]

27 minutes ago, Starz said:

30% is way too low, Roar works on more than just your weapon, as well as faction damage double dipping on Damage over time, this just further pushes eclipse down. Right direction but numbers are too low.

Yep, I feel like Roar should be knocked down to 20% at base to compensate for eclipse dipping that low since Roar also affects other things and showing that Roar is more used should mean that its gets the better treatment of being looked at to have its numbers compensated. The only thing Eclipse has going for it if it gets the same damage values as roar is that its recastable, which roar needs an augment for but roar also doesn't need an augment to grant to allies which eclipse does. And this isn't even accounting for the double-dipping and other nonsense that roar can do over eclipse.

[Scobragon]

Yes, that seems reasonable, I'm glad it didn't end up being a nerf to Mirage.

I am happy that DE isn't clowning around.

Edited February 27 by Scobragon

[OgreEye]

I will fr buy $100 in plat right now if you change the DR to 90% so I can actually play the like 2/3 of the cast that has to shield gate otherwise. please it would be so nice

[Redrigoth]

Thanks for listening to feedback.
Small comment on balancing helminth:

Since it now offers the dual purpose of damage reduction or damage, it is fair that its damage is reduced to an overall less effectiveness than roar.
Roar affects abilities and double dips procs since it is a faction multiplier. Eclipse does not do either of those things, so for the purpose of a damage buff it should be a little bit stronger, but since it also offers flexibility it should take a partial penalty. Its damage reduction portion should also be reliable as a damage mitigation option but since it is a helminth it should have some drawbacks like requiring a higher ability strength investment.

My suggestion for balancing is:

• 50% damage boost. Yes that is higher than base roar, but roar far surpasses it as a damage buff when you factor in that it buffs all damage not just weapons and that it is a quadratic buff for status procs and it also buffs allies and it has longer duration. So if you want pure damage buff, you still go for roar. If you want some damage but with a defense option, or just a small energy economical buff, then eclipse is the way to go. They would each have a unique purpose. Keep in mind, if only Day-Eclipse or Night-Eclipse can be active at any one point then the buff doesn't need to be too weak.
• The second issue is the damage reduction. People usually want damage reduction for very high levels when enemies have so much dps that even 10% of their dps is enough to one shot you. For this, it would be beneficial to stack multiple sources of damage reduction. But due to the fact damage reduction formula is multiplicative rather than flat addition, you generally want a few large sources rather than many small ones. So let it scale with strength but let the helminth version require more strength investment to reach 90%. For mirage it can be base 70% so with one Intensify mod, she hits the 90% breakpoint. But for helminth make it 45% base reduction so it requires 200% strength before you hit the breakpoint. Both max cap at 90%. This will be beneficial for those frames with no defensive options at all (they will still need a large strength investment for 90% and they will need reasonable duration to maintain it so this forces them to use atleast 3 mod slots to accommodate, which means they can't use Overextended or Fleeting Expertise. This balances it out for helminth users)

Either way, I'm satisfied with the new direction described in this post so I won't be too sad.

PS: No shenanigans where the toggle is suddenly a channeled ability. Just make it Tap for power, Hold for defense. New buff overrides old buff so both can't be active. Keep 25 sec duration for mirage so timer aligns with her Hall of mirror ability. Maybe helminth can get 20 seconds instead. Only one of the buffs can be active at any time though so I don't think a duration nerf is needed. You pick damage mode or defense mode with plain old weapon damage. Glass cannon mirage needs max strength which means 45% ability efficiency with Blind Rage so channeled constant drain with energy regen denial would mess her ability up. Being super squishy on a glass cannon build without the defense buff is enough punishment to balance the power out; at that point the strategy is make sure to kill all enemies before they kill you.

Edited February 27 by Redrigoth

[Kaiga]

Holy beef this subsume is dead

There is zero reason to use eclipse over roar, it's just a worse version that doesn't double dip, automatically DOA. It's like they don't understand that subsumes need to be unique or good to be worth using at all.

Please, i want to see the usage stats if this change goes live. It's gonna be in the low single digits.

 

On 2024-02-27 at 9:14 AM, XennethKeisere said:

I'm sorry, no.

30% is too low.

Every other Helminth You've nerfed compared to the original is a 50% reduction. This is 85%.

Show some consistency.

They don't play the game.

They're just spinning dials and going "whoopsie!" with no consistency at all.

Edited February 28 by Kaiga

[ArmoredDragoness]

I agree you putting it to 30% makes me want to take a shotgun to the ribcage this is a blatant nuke to its effectiveness rendering hildy useless In profit taker at least increase it to 75% or again don't touch it at all

[Redrigoth]

48 minutes ago, Kaiga said:

Holy beef this subsume is dead!

There is zero reason to use eclipse over roar, it's just a worse version that doesn't double dip, good god this is dead. It's like they don't understand that subsumes need to be unique or good to be worth using at all.

Please, i want to see the usage stats if this change goes live. It's gonna be in the low single digits.

Well to be fair, the reason to use it would be either for the damage reduction which is unique to Eclipse, or for a cheap energy buff at only 25 energy cost.

I do agree 30% is a bit low. Maybe 50% is more reasonable since unlike roar it won't double dip on proc and it wont buff aoe or ability damage.

[--TL--mutazalmatani]

Thank you for listening to the community regarding the Eclipse changes

Mirage didn't deserve a nerf to her because of helminth. On the other hand, nerfing eclipse to 30% is MASSIVE nerf to the helminth ability, especially as roar does not only benefit weapons, it also double dips on DoTs and affects ability damage, something that eclipse doesnt do.

[Binket_]

54 minutes ago, [DE]Juice said:

After reviewing Community feedback and discussing it internally

Now I'm half debating which sources were accounted for.
I'm not saying it's bad or good-- I was on the fence for either side.

... but rather that I'm wondering what kind of feedback was taken into account. _{(If there was any for that matter.)}

Mainly because you're matching the subsume to the value of "Roar"-- which is internally using Faction Damage as a buff.
^{For those unaware, see also: https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Faction_Damage_Bonus}
Any player worth their merit can tell you that this game has a LOT of internal nuance factors.
This can make something that's "30%" go from useless to absolutely broken by one small coding difference.

When you say "Multiplicative" or "Stack Multiplicative"-- this means nothing to me. I'm assuming it's applying the same buff as before.
One that applies to weapons and specific abilities that function off of similar buffs.
I.E. Frost's 1 (Freeze), Excalibur 3 (Radial Javelin), the spark projectiles of Wisp's 3 (Breach Surge) or various Exalteds like Ivara's Artemis Bow.

The reason players use Roar is because it's damage makes things like Slash Procs hit even harder and acts as a huge multiplier of "total damage".
It also boosts some abilities to crazy degrees, whereas something like Shooting Gallery wouldn't boost abilities.
Eclipse functions more like Shooting Gallery than Roar.

So I see something like this and I have to go one of two paths of questioning:

1. If you didn't know this... why? You're the devs and this isn't some forbidden knowledge. It's rather common knowledge.
2. If you did know about this... what is your reasoning for matching to a completely different damage source?
   They're bound to have wildly different values given and that just makes Eclipse useless as subsume for arbitrary reasons.

Regardless of the answer to either? This makes me doubt this was well-thought-out and THAT'S what has me concerned.
These kinda changes have been happening for a while and it's starting to step on a lot of toes of players who just want you to know what you're doing.
We can't keep doing this blind waltz.

[-joemama]

cant spell dentge without de

[Zomtronic]

I think 30% is a little low, 50-75%, maybe even 100% might be a more sweetspot, due to roars attibutes of double dipping procs, buffing ability damage, and being sharable without an augment. With the clarification of it being 265 on helmith additive this might actually be worse. But a part of me is glad that the way eclipse applies isn't being changed. And of course, mirage walks out this with a pretty major buff, but I think there being a larger difference between base and helmith eclipse isn't a bad thing.

Edited February 27 by Zomtronic

[Morasco]

For context:

Rhino's Roar provides a 50% buff.
Helminth's Roar provides a 30% buff.
So Helminth's Roar is 60% of Rhino's Roar (30%/50%).

Mirage's Eclipse currently provides a final multiplicative damage increase of 200%.
Helminth's Eclipse currently provides a final multiplicative damage increase of 150%.
So currently it is 75% of Mirage's Eclipse (150%/200%), which is great.

With this new update to Mirage Eclipse Changes, Helminth's Eclipse will provide a final multiplicative damage increase of 30% instead of 150%.
That is only 20% (30%/150%) of what Helminth's Eclipse currently provides. You want to cut the Helminth's Eclipse to 1/5 of what it currently is. That is an 80% nerf.
Also, Helminth's Eclipse will be only 15% of Mirage's (30%/200%).
Where in the world is this reasonable? At this point, don't even let us subsume Mirage at all if the skill is only going to be 15% as powerful as the original.

Not to mention the fact that Roar is faction damage, applies to allies, etc.

And people are happy with this Eclipse nerf???

[Ste-rakris_Ve-rakra]

30% and comparing it to a team ability, faction damage, ability damage buff. What's more is if remember right Total Eclipse is range based so that even sucks further as a team ability since walk a little too far and its damage is gone and that needs a mod slot that doesn't benefit the user much. 

 a 30% Multiplicative damage increase was the same as having the cap of 350% being additive. That damage is nothing. Eclipse is only around because of its high multipliers, without that it's nothing. Roar buffs, Heat, Electric, Toxin,  Gas and Bleeds, on top of abilities and doesn't need a mod for team support.

[ThatLuJan]

8 minutes ago, Morasco said:

For context:

Rhino's Roar provides a 50% buff.
Helminth's Roar provides a 30% buff.
So Helminth's Roar is 60% of Rhino's Roar (30%/50%).

Mirage's Eclipse currently provides a final multiplicative damage increase of 200%.
Helminth's Eclipse currently provides a final multiplicative damage increase of 150%.
So currently it is 75% of Mirage's Eclipse (150%/200%), which is great.

With this new update to Mirage Eclipse Changes, Helminth's Eclipse will provide a final multiplicative damage increase of 30% instead of 150%.
That is only 20% (30%/150%) of what Helminth's Eclipse currently provides. You want to cut the Helminth's Eclipse to 1/5 of what it currently is. That is an 80% nerf.
Also, Helminth's Eclipse will be only 15% of Mirage's (30%/200%).
Where in the world is this reasonable? At this point, don't even let us subsume Mirage at all if the skill is only going to be 15% as powerful as the original.

Not to mention the fact that Roar is faction damage, applies to allies, etc.

And people are happy with this Eclipse nerf???

The people happy with this nerf are the same people who dont understand this this new nerf is even worse than the original changes DE had planned

Edited February 27 by ThatLuJan

[Sinner]

6 minutes ago, Morasco said:

For context:

Rhino's Roar provides a 50% buff.
Helminth's Roar provides a 30% buff.
So Helminth's Roar is 60% of Rhino's Roar (30%/50%).

Mirage's Eclipse currently provides a final multiplicative damage increase of 200%.
Helminth's Eclipse currently provides a final multiplicative damage increase of 150%.
So currently it is 75% of Mirage's Eclipse (150%/200%), which is great.

With this new update to Mirage Eclipse Changes, Helminth's Eclipse will provide a final multiplicative damage increase of 30% instead of 150%.
That is only 20% (30%/150%) of what Helminth's Eclipse currently provides. You want to cut the Helminth's Eclipse to 1/5 of what it currently is. That is an 80% nerf.
Also, Helminth's Eclipse will be only 15% of Mirage's (30%/200%).
Where in the world is this reasonable? At this point, don't even let us subsume Mirage at all if the skill is only going to be 15% as powerful as the original.

Not to mention the fact that Roar is faction damage, applies to allies, etc.

And people are happy with this Eclipse nerf???

While the paper values are nerfed this hard, it's also worth mentioning that in almost no areas were we getting even 130% from eclipse in normal missions. So it's fair to nerf it if the value is being untied from lighting.

In that same vein, people were still subsuming eclipse knowing that this damage buff is still a valuable one and stronger than roar for their specific setups. Almost nobody is taking this subsume for the DR it provides and in a lot of cases this DR is useless even if we could have both at once due to how high the enemy damage is.

Having eclipse at 100% is about where we were before this whole discussion for average damage in most missions, and 75% damage is a reasonable nerf imo. 

[LunarisDream]

Came back to the game a week ago. Glad to see some things never change.

Go ahead and nerf Gloom subsume to 15% of original as well just to keep things consistent.

Making the whole Helminth grind then kicking the player in the nethers by making the reward gimped to all hell doesn't make for a good game experience.

[Kyleprime101]

make it 50% instead please

 

[therealpozzum]

11 minutes ago, Sinner said:

While the paper values are nerfed this hard, it's also worth mentioning that in almost no areas were we getting even 130% from eclipse in normal missions. So it's fair to nerf it if the value is being untied from lighting.

In that same vein, people were still subsuming eclipse knowing that this damage buff is still a valuable one and stronger than roar for their specific setups. Almost nobody is taking this subsume for the DR it provides and in a lot of cases this DR is useless even if we could have both at once due to how high the enemy damage is.

Having eclipse at 100% is about where we were before this whole discussion for average damage in most missions, and 75% damage is a reasonable nerf imo. 

This needs to be stated more. We were basically never getting the maximum value out of Eclipse when it was lighting-dependent, so comparing the maximum possible pre-rework value to the new values is fruitless. That being said I personally would prefer something closer to 40 or 50 percent, but 30% is OK when it's becoming a non-variable-strength effect. I personally just hope they make Eclipse's DR, even if only for Mirage, share the same DR cap as most other DR powers. 75% even for the original frame feels a bit bad.

[Numerounius]

12 minutes ago, Sinner said:

While the paper values are nerfed this hard, it's also worth mentioning that in almost no areas were we getting even 130% from eclipse in normal missions. So it's fair to nerf it if the value is being untied from lighting.

In that same vein, people were still subsuming eclipse knowing that this damage buff is still a valuable one and stronger than roar for their specific setups. Almost nobody is taking this subsume for the DR it provides and in a lot of cases this DR is useless even if we could have both at once due to how high the enemy damage is.

Having eclipse at 100% is about where we were before this whole discussion for average damage in most missions, and 75% damage is a reasonable nerf imo. 

Problem is that it was being used in open world where you always got maximum value. You didn't have to stand in mega specific spots to get that buff when in the open world which is where most of its usage came from if you wanted Eclipse to be stronger than Roar. And more people were using Roar than Eclipse to begin with so people did know that Roar is better in many situations.