Update on the Mirage Eclipse Changes

[Zeliphar]

helminth 30% , don't search anymore why nourish is a must have (before the nerf , idk how you will nerf him , but that look a messy nerf like you ever done) you just take useless ability , or you nerfed it to the grave

[Raikh]

This feels oddly spiteful to me. Its great to hear that Mirage gets to keep her full power Eclipse as was originally communicated but I don't get in what world an 80% nerf to the Helminth version is being considered reasonable. Especially matching the number Roar gives when Roar works on a lot more things.

Sure, Eclipse technically provides more than just damage, but I highly doubt actively switching between Light and Dark will be much of a thing. Either you need/want the dmg reduction or you just want the damage. There aren't really many situations where you can confidently say "now I'm gonna take damage and need additional damage reduction".

I would've expected a nerf down to around 100%, so half of Mirage's value, mirroring something like Wrathful Advance which also provides a ludicrous amount of damage while having a secondary function, which is mobility in its case.

Honestly makes me worried whats gonna happen to Nourish, since that one is already more popular than Eclipse would ever be.

Edited February 28 by Raikh

[Aerikx]

14 minutes ago, Raikh said:

Honestly makes me worried whats gonna happen to Nourish, since that one is already more popular than Eclipse would ever be

They said they just plan to tone down the subsumed variant. 

But I wonder...what would happen if they just removed the viral from it and left the energy economy. (As that'd reduce the crazy combos of Viral + Element that are running rampant) would that "Kill" it for people. 

Maybe they just remove the energy economy and leave Viral thus keeping the crazy combos. 

Either way, the whiplash overreaction will be crazy. 🙄 

The eclipse retooling backlash has already jumped the shark. 

It's a hybrid ability that can be better than roar but this was offset by the randomness of lightning effecting it. With that randomness gone it needed to be brought in line. It's crazy how folks just want to refuse to acknowledge that the DR aspect exists and thus has to be accounted for. 

Just because the majority of players ignore the DR aspect doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. 

Using Nourish for example. If say the majority of players are using it for energy economy and not the viral proc; this doesn't mean the viral proc doesn't magically not exist. It's still a factor and has to be accounted for. 

I'm just grateful Mirage isn't being negatively impacted anymore.

[Ghastly-Ghoul]

3 hours ago, Sinner said:

Great then you can go ahead and use your subsumes and I'll make my arguments for buffing the damage on eclipse.

If you don't want to do hard content then you don't need to optimize your damage or overall setup. It's fine if you don't want to, but that's no reason to nerf other people's builds.

Also why are you searching up my own usage rates? Just cuz I have like 20% playtime on volt doesn't mean I don't have playtime with health tanking. Very few frames can health tank to the 1000s and that's with a lot of struggle and loadout synergies to keep themselves alive so a 75% DR wouldn't make it any more viable since by then even 1 round would scale their damage beyond what any amount of DR less than 100% could provide.

You seem to want to attack me or other players playstyles because we do harder content than to actually talk about the issues where this change matters but you're so focused on lower levels that it's not even a helpful discussion. 

 

One shotting limbs is not a playstyle. Use Roar after this nerf and have slower completions. Level cap in any mode is not difficult content or challenging in the slightest. Level capping on Kullervo before he was able to get overguard was not difficult for me, just tedious. It would be more tedious on Inaros, but not challenging. You also just continue to ignore all the other reasons I stated as to why the DR on Eclipse may be a good thing for players who are not obsessed with damage so this convo will go nowhere. You're so focused on higher levels which matters significantly less in the core gameplay loop and to the majority of players. Health tanking is not feasible at level cap so why not create more opportunities for this playstyle, maybe even bringing it in line with shield-gating/vazarin sling? Killing faster isn't what makes level cap easier because you're not avoiding every enemy with 100% accuracy without the crutch of  invulnerability. It's the invulnerability vazarin sling/shield-gating provides in conjunction with killing or some sort of CC ability that allows you to survive. If health tanking became more viable, it'd be the exact same thing except you wouldn't have to spam as much. I'd argue a health tanking playstyle should be more viable at pointless levels of endurance.

I love using Vazarin Sling. It allows me to minmax to incredible levels. But I seriously think there is a problem if you can't see any argument opposing your side when playing devil's advocate.

You only care about your playstyle. We get it. Hopefully DE takes other sides into consideration. I'm sorry if I offended you by looking into your profile's usage. I am wanting to measure my own confirmation bias so I'm looking into usage stats on profiles. My most used is Mag with Torid, Dual Toxocyst, and Dual Ichor. These are all at a 20% usage rate and while I care about my playstyles and do not limit myself to just one, I do tend to squeeze as much DPS as I can into my builds at the cost of being comfortable. I do want to be open minded about how other people play the game, and not focus on just the DPS-oriented folk like you and me.

Edited February 28 by Ghastly-Ghoul

[Raikh]

7 minutes ago, Aerikx said:

They said they just plan to tone down the subsumed variant. 

Only thing I care about tbh. With its universal energy gen increase its a build maker and thats whats interesting to me.

8 minutes ago, Aerikx said:

But I wonder...what would happen if they just removed the viral from it and left the energy economy. (As that'd reduce the crazy combos of Viral + Element that are running rampant) would that "Kill" it for people. 

Maybe they just remove the energy economy and leave Viral thus keeping the crazy combos. 

Think at large the energy is what drives the ability. But entirely removing either aspect is gonna leave a bad impression. Viral itself makes building some wepaons more interesting or at the very least comfy but if people are just looking for damage they would just grab smth else and slot Viral back in. In a way Nourish providing Viral actually gives other elements a better shot at being included because suddenly you actually have space for them.

12 minutes ago, Aerikx said:

It's a hybrid ability that can be better than roar but this was offset by the randomness of lightning effecting it

At 30% I don't see a case where its better than Roar because dynamically switching between the modes is insanely niche. Could also argue that Roar buffs the party whereas Eclipse does not (w/o an Augment). I just don't see how 150% was fine bc it was inconsistent and now with consistency it can only be 30%. Thats a bit too much of a leap for me. It should most definitely be a stronger base than Roar since it only affects weapons, even if thats just 50% base if they really feel like they can't give it anywhere close to the values it had before.

[Doomelf]

41 minutes ago, Captain_Dark21 said:

That's too much of a nerf for Mirage 200 is fine that's her purpose. She's a weapon buffer she can make bad weapons viable

At 200% is fine, without the toggle. The inconsistency and extra steps you have to take keep it in check, such as using an invisible frame to snapshot the buff and benefit from it even in dark areas. They said if eclipse is going to have a toggle will get nerfed so doesn't make sense to be left at 200% on mirage. For example, garuda's passive, primed chamber, and beguiling lantern also give a 100% multiplicative increase, similarly to eclipse. It also becoming 100% would be just fine.

Bad weapons are bad for a reason. Instead of buffing them massively just to make them viable, use better options. Just because someone wants to use bad weapons, doesn't mean eclipse staying at 200% on mirage is fine. I get people are attached to it and don't want a big nerf, but that's not objective.

[Captain_Dark21]

2 minutes ago, Doomelf said:

At 200% is fine, without the toggle. The inconsistency and extra steps you have to take keep it in check, such as using an invisible frame to snapshot the buff and benefit from it even in dark areas. They said if eclipse is going to have a toggle will get nerfed so doesn't make sense to be left at 200% on mirage. For example, garuda's passive, primed chamber, and beguiling lantern also give a 100% multiplicative increase, similarly to eclipse. It also becoming 100% would be just fine.

Bad weapons are bad for a reason. Instead of buffing them massively just to make them viable, use better options. Just because someone wants to use bad weapons, doesn't mean eclipse staying at 200% on mirage is fine. I get people are attached to it and don't want a big nerf, but that's not objective.

Yes bad weapons are bad but saying use better options isn't the right answer either. We already use better options so her having that 200% to make bad weapons using is fine. That keeps them bad under normal circumstances unless in the hands of the weapon specialist warframe which is her entire kit. The inconsistent lighting didn't keep it in check it just didn't work at all. The whole new section of the game was completely dark that isn't keeping it in check that's flat out broken. 

IMO her having 200% is just fine considering she is suppose to be able to make any weapon usable. They already made the enemies bullet sponges as it is it allows her to be on par with other frames that can flat out hit damage cap like Khora's whipclaw can and they haven't nerfed that again. Wisp hits damage cap, so does Sayrn and Revenant. Mirage should be able to do it as well.

[khalidMG1]

30% is too low for eclipse 

roar works differently form eclipse the damage boost u get form eclipse will barely surpass roar's due to the nature of both abilities 

treating eclipse like wrathful advance would be better approach 

[migoq_aki]

5 minutes ago, khalidMG1 said:

30% is too low for eclipse 

roar works differently form eclipse the damage boost u get form eclipse will barely surpass roar's due to the nature of both abilities 

treating eclipse like wrathful advance would be better approach 

correction, 30% eclipse will not surpass roar in any circumstance
50% breaks about even
60% starts to be slightly better in "not roar things", like not dots and such

[TUNGSTANOR]

Hello DE. Thanks for listening to feedback. I'm hoping you'll listen again. 30% is too little. 50-75% would be ideal as an alternative to 30% roar, since roar is a faction buff that works on abilities

[KiteForest_2035]

This inevitably makes me worry about future Helminth abilities. Up until now, the maximum reduction was 50%. Following this trend, future Helminth abilities that are slightly more useful could potentially have values ten times less than the original abilities... Buddy, there should be a limit to this, shouldn't there?

[Pzykdruhgs]

As someone who uses this subsume a lot, it was mostly to speed up a specific run that is just boring as hell without it. I feel like this is only happening because you want to slow us down, there's no real reason otherwise. You're not saying "we're making these changes because.... _________".

Why else then? If there wasn't a specific fight that took advantage of this, I wouldn't have subsumed it at all - and that fight is one where there's no bonuses for statusing (which we mod for) no bonuses for crowd control, no bonuses for (most) abilities that do damage, no bonuses from operator, barely able to get energy during the fight unless you get a specific random decree. Why would I play after now you get rid of one of the only bonuses that will actually speed the fight up? So I'm guessing internally you're realizing that your restraints you keep putting on us makes this ability useful because it's literally one of the only ones that will leverage fights where you've attempted to slow us in every other possible way.

I suppose it would help us want to group with a mirage and protect them, which is what I imagine you're trying to achieve instead of us subsuming this and soloing, but then we have a mode - Duviri - which some of us enjoy playing, and this pretty much just says "You will now be slowed to half or worse". I've modded every weapon in the game and I can tell you after throwing so much at the wall eclipse was one of the only abilities aside from roar that makes a frame viable without having to wait for the stupid archgun summon that.... isn't even our own damn archgun. I want to use MY GUNS. I want them to be damaging. This completely screws all of that sideways and everything I've been adjusting and modding for for the past 4 months. Do I need to run this mode? No, but I was having fun with it because eclipse made it more exciting than just waiting on the archguns. Without eclipse a lot of weapons just don't put enough down on wyrm that it will be exciting to run (unless we get frames that are actually good for the mode - which is so freaking dumb).

So after this change what happens: I stop playing Duviri lone story. I likely subsume over the ability for something that does well with whatever new content exists until you decide that one is nerfed.

Just sharing my thoughts. I'm sure it wont be that bad and a lot of weapons are still viable, but it was nice to be able to sort of 'race' to break the wyrm with crappy weapons before the archguns dropped, because it felt like we are winning, Modding for Lone Story is going to feel like hot garbage without this subsume as an option for a lot of the trash weapons that just absolutely do not put damage down without it and you're forced to wait for the archguns drop. Boring!!!! The only way I could see this changing is perhaps if we get more riven slots so we can actually boost the trash tier weapons back up a bit, and even then there's no riven that would come close in a lot of cases unless we get absolute great rolls.... I honestly don't know why you think this change is necessary, but it stifles our options in an already option restricted zone, for starters, and that cascades to many modes that we've been building around for a long while. It's like if you raised all HP by 100% and then only made the entire game SP so we have to headshot an enemy 5 times with something that used to take 2 "because". We would all see that is an obvious attempt to slow us down..... and especially worse for people that arent abusing stuff like rivens, which shouldn't be mandatory.... seriously there's probably more problem weapons than eclipse itself being a bad seed.

I feel like I'm being punished for enjoying the game... why doesn't status work against some bosses again (etc. it's like we have all these mods and abilities and stuff and then at a whim you can decide none of that matters... ok so why do we have them????????????????????????????????????????????) ? Because you chose to make a system that we are using other systems to leverage against.

Not to mention this wouldn't be a problem if you'd stop incentivizing steel path... What happened to steel path not being a mode that was going to be best to run? If you want to get us to not play steel path, make normal mode the mode that drops 250% resources and is faster. We are using eclipse subsume because you make things that already takes forever with weapons we want to use that we happen to get riv for or even just primed mod cramming (some of which can't even handle the capacity for all) and then also having to contend with attenuation (at which point a lot of us aren't even using eclipse.... so it's non problem????). Like where does it end? Should all missions just be kahl-like where YOU dictate exactly what we use/ are able to use and non mod ???? Like seriously. Why do we have mods and subsumes at all if you keep peeling them back to useless levels.... I was especially annoyed with the 60-Eye fight not having arcane revives because it was one of the first things we get where 'Hey this could mean that fights really take me to exhaustion levels' to 'Don't get hit and also your frame is basically useless unless it has uncancelable ability(ies)'. Although luckily the rewards are complete trash so I never had to do it after completing it once.

[Lord_Drod]

Thanks DE, you guys are the best!  I guess I won't be switching off Mirage anytime soon, well except for those new missions!  I am sure they won't be too bad, just like raking leaves like the netracells, but with forced relative fodder.  #Simulor_Revived.

[TheLegendCore]

LOL the previous 350% additive was better (more total damage). I dont get people thanking DE, thanks for what? 
30% means many end game content such as Eidolons and PT is gone for mid tier players. 
and why would you even compare it to roar? Eclipse needs to be at least 75-100% to be able to do the bare minimum. 
But hey Thanks DE for helping me to quite the game little by little. 

[Whispywhiskers]

Although I am very relieved that mirage herself isn’t straight up terrible now. Her Helminth may now be even weaker which is pretty awful. Sure the damage reduction is nice but one of the best ways to survive is to kill the enemy before they even have a chance to deal damage to you. Make it 100%, 30% is nearly unusable. That being said have to give thanks to Devs for listening to feedback from the community. We are greatly appreciative of the quick response.

Edited February 29 by Whispywhiskers

[Traumtulpe]

18 hours ago, Raikh said:

Honestly makes me worried whats gonna happen to Nourish, since that one is already more popular than Eclipse would ever be.

If they reduce it to 30% Viral damage and 30% extra energy it would still be way better than Eclipse, they can't possibly nerf Nourish enough to compare.

[YNCShadow]

The point is... players actually dont pick eclipse as a daily use power before, because we get Gauss.. incarnon weapons.. and more ways to face daily mission instead of using eclipse. What players really use eclipse is when we face Profit taker orb/Eidolon hunting, and what happen is players can easily reach the highest eclipse when they are in orb vallis mission(also the same thing in night plains of eidolon), so what players really get from this change is only nerf.. 

another thing is, roar is from 50% to 30%, but eclipse get a nerf from 200% to 30%, that was a nerf over 50%, we need strong helminth power to face those boss in Warframe.

Personally, i dont think we need it to be a power that use for daily mission because we already have many of them, for e.g. we get roar, xata's whisper, nourish, and those powers are all about status, but for Profit taker orb.. we can only pick eclipse as the best way to increase our weapon damage(roar is only useful for eidolon, and is also not that good for solo players).

So at least it should be 100% for eclipse, 120% is better, i understand it might be powerful during daily mission but its actually not making players more efficiency compare with picking other helminth abilities, it only increase the weapon damage.

But thanks again for listening players sound to change back eclipse's final multiplicative.

Edited February 29 by YNCShadow

[JustHari]

Roar is 60% the power of the original 50%, so 30%., and it works on abilities and affects DoTs. and affects the squad as well.

Why not 120% for Eclipse? which is 60% of 200%, as its only for weapons. this is still a nerf than before(150%)..

30% Eclipse. is just trash..

[Unlucky1307]

Roar vs Eclipse, comparing the two based on where they'll be at a proposed 30%:

Eclipse is a multiplicative 30% damage buff to only yourself and only your weapons. With an augment it can buff allies as well, but only while in range. This is compared to 200% at base. It also only costs 25 energy and has the option to be used as a defensive ability, but we'll be ignoring the details on that up here because that's not what the vast majority players use it for.

Roar is also a multiplicative 30% and without an augment it applies to your guns and abilities, as well as all allies in range when it's cast for the full duration, and even your pets, and it's a 50% boost at base. It costs 75 energy.

For the sake of simplicity I'll assume that eclipse will function like a faction style multiplicative bonus like roar and apply to damaging status effects done by your weapons.

 

When would players actually choose eclipse over roar with these changes?

When they have a frame who does no ability damage, has a low energy cap/bad energy economy, or when they want the defensive ability of it and are playing solo. I mention the "playing solo" portion there because in a group, you would want to buff your allies with the eclipse augment, which means you're giving up a mod slot that could be used for the superior damage reduction of adaptation, which is tradable and can be obtained by any player.

The nerf of roar is a 40% overall reduction in power when used via helminth, the nerf of eclipse with the proposed 30% would be an 85% nerf when used via helminth, which is absolutely excessive and out of line with what the helminth system normally feels like to use.

 

What number would make sense?

Obviously the desire from DE is for more than the nerf roar has due to the added reliability and higher number, if it works the same as roar but only for weapons that's okay. But that restriction of it only working for your weapons means it should absolutely be a stronger buff than roar for damage. Given the current numbers and plans for it, I would suggest keeping it at a buff of 60% but only if DE plans to revisit it and buff it if needed. If this is going to be like so many situations where the change is released and left as is for potentially years, I would much prefer seeing the buff be released at 100% in order to ensure that the buff still feels good to use in areas where it's dominant currently with the 150% buff that can be guaranteed via lighting snapshotting with invisibility, heat procs on yourself, etc.

 

I'm glad that it's no longer going to be additive and an entirely useless ability, but if it's made to be "roar but cheaper and worse" then it will simply be replaced by roar, or xata's whisper, in almost all cases. If the goal is to indirectly shove more players into using "group buffing" abilities like roar, then this change would accomplish that goal. If the goal is to encourage greater build diversity, then the numbers should be at least a fair amount higher than roar's buff to ensure warframes that have both ability and weapon damage will have some incentive to take eclipse on occasion.

[Stormandreas]

Amusing seeing the Kneejerk reactions happening, without ANY knowledge of any other balancing that will be done to the ability, to then force DE's hand because the community is kneejerking to unknown information.

I would of rather seen the updated version to get an actual feel of it ingame and how significant/insignificant it's damage would be, to THEN provide accurate and tested feedback.

[YNCShadow]

9分钟前 , Stormandreas 说:

Amusing seeing the Kneejerk reactions happening, without ANY knowledge of any other balancing that will be done to the ability, to then force DE's hand because the community is kneejerking to unknown information.

I would of rather seen the updated version to get an actual feel of it ingame and how significant/insignificant it's damage would be, to THEN provide accurate and tested feedback.

 

They have a test server on Steam, I don’t know why they’re not using it. The last time the Warframe test server was opened was around February 2, 2022.

[leostrings]

Sad news for warframe, somehow developers still don't understand that this game is called warframe for a reason, is not called weaponframe, lastly the only thing that works is the most broken meta incarnon mele weapon (i have them all with rivens, so isn't envy) and the warframe doesn't really care, the warframe is only a mele arcane booster holder, and thats it, and people is complainning about a very specific skill nicely designed to work with the warframe in perfect synchrony cause they want this weird game to be pointless copy of valorant or sothing like that, people this is warframe, were is the beautifull AoE damage?  were is the sense of progression on the game, in order to progress in this game you focus more and more in solo target, the game is so stressfull that players appear to be like piano players, secondary aoe to apply conditions -probably vigorous swap to meleone shot-operator for energy and group up enemies (yes the warframe does nothing more than just press the mirage skill) then repeat again in maps that have thousands of enemies, that is just carpian tunel potencial! is ridiculous, stop complainning about the hability, please request buff for anything else, and reworks for anything else, look the new augment mod for loki is gonna bury nyx 10 feets away from the surface and it didn't even get released yet, bring warframes back, buff another damage habilities from the helminth so the people have options, possibilites, this braindead meta eclipse wisp is not the entire game, but is the only thing that work, why is this happening, there is 52 warframes and people play the same cause DE dont give options, what is the problem with someone pressing a button and the whole room explode in consequence? that is gamming, this is not weaponframe, again warframes use to have dps, i don't see the problem of that, you guys keep nerfing everything, this developers connect to play a character against lvl 30 enemies and dont even realize all the acrobatic and piano you gotta do to kill something in high end  content cause they dont play that content, is frustrating!!! the game don't give options, i use to have days dedicated to thinker ideas for builds and grinding for that, now new players come rush wisp get the incarnon mele then they go away cause the game doesn't offer anything else, this is not a first person shooter  meant to be played with rifle or a copy of sekiro, the main weapons are the warframes, if this game continues to go this way then rework that ridiculous openning video showing off warframes cause those are meaningless, the only thing doing damage are 4 weapons out of like 500 and 2 warframe out of 52, is ridiculous give freedom to players, buff everything, the more you hit the notch habilities the more you break the game in the wrong direction, buff all habilities bring back joy to warframe, bring back the thinkering as part of the building system, this status stackers are really struggling to do dps, they dont accept it because they didnt know the potential the game had, this game is absolutely boring now for the players, mirage is perfect like it is, she just require some light and she is going, you guys dont need that hability, that is meant to be used by her, you guys need several skills buffed to allow you to improve and explode to the maximum your mele single target builds while you can still choose waaaaay more options, understand please, my point is this: this game use to have tonels of options, now just one hability works, its gonna be nerfed and only 1 build will work, what is the point of having multiple build slots if only 1 work?

Edited February 29 by leostrings

[spider_enigma]

On 2024-02-27 at 3:48 PM, Ghastly-Ghoul said:

I think the 30% value is fine as you also get DR. Roar is better for DoTs where as Eclipse will be on par with Roar for non-DoT damage types while also giving another buff. Can someone explain to me why this is unreasonable?

its one or the other, u cant get both at the same time

[ArdeKakka]

Does that mean you guys are not fixing how the lighting affects her 4's damage bonus?

Pls fix that pls or change how it works(pls dont nerf)

[_Anise_]

On 2024-01-28 at 2:02 PM, Orokin said:

Reduce it to +30% damage to be consistent with Roar

It was stupid change but Orokin called it, its now has worse damage than Roar because they don't do the same thing

Edited February 29 by _Anise_