Let's address the Wolf in the room

[WindShadow970]

You thought I'd be talking about Voruna but it's Ulfrun hehe. In all seriousness, from my perspective Voruna's 4 needs help. Original, I know.

(I'll disregard the existence of Helminth, let's actually address problems)

First I'll address Voruna's identity from my view (skippable)
 

Spoiler

-Melee skewed frame, with interesting build options facilitated by fixed crits and status chance on melee weapons

-Consistent status primer for Condition Overload (and Galvanised mods if you wanna shoot once in a while)

-Able to formulate coherent gameplans around orbs due to very consistent generation.

-Able to switch between passives at any time to adapt to her needs. The passives don't add or detract from her power, they just add a useful something.

-Her passives are a Jack-of-all-Trades toolbox, in most cases less effective than more specialised counterparts but she always has access to this toolbox

 

Now onto the 4's components

Passive - You have one free pass from death

I know it sounds strange, but to me you're begging to die if you lock in this passive. It offers none of the quality-of-life that the other 3 options provide, Voruna has access to on-demand invisibility if she gets cornered, bleeding out health is no issue since she prints health orbs and it doesn't mesh with her general plan of "Get to target, whack with stick, profit". And it has a cooldown on trigger and on swapping to other passives, a property terribly unique to it.

Active - Nom, nom...nom

The augment is a bandaid running away from actually addressing issues with this abilty. Ulfrun's Descent deviates from the gameplay pattern established by the 3 prior basic abilities of "We make stick hit good". I'm mostly okay with alternate approaches existing within a frame's kit but that's normally a conscious decision from the player to do so, otherwise the kit will flow cohesively as intended. Voruna's 4 violates this, it demands you build and play around it otherwise it serves little to no purpose (especially when compared to your death stick of choice but I won't go into that comparison). It first should function cohesively and fluidly at a baseline before we consider adding augments or hyper specialising playstyles.

Propositions

Passive

It simply needs to be binned and replaced with something else (I'm thinking status duration).

Active

I feel it should interact with the combo counter on some level, because melee gameplan. To allow the player to choose at their leisure between claw and blade, combo counter multiplier should be transferrable to Ulfrun's Descent and vice versa. The Aoe on hit needs to be better, it very quickly does nothing but slightly annoy enemies. I'd also like for it have a normal crit multiplier instead on the weird stuff going on in the background,

[DeathOfASaint]

ulfruns just feels like a bad melee tbh, ability needs to go or a complete rework

 

[Raikh]

Voruna strikes me as a Warframe thats jampacked with very powerful mechanics but they are also so conservatively tuned that it leaves her in a somewhat awkward position.

Ulfrun's Descent is not even that, its just underwhelming (and clunky as hell imo). Could very well turn it into a Pseudo-Exalted to make it scale better and adhere closer to the melee identity of the Frame but Psuedo-Exalted Weapons currently also have the tendency to make you build your Melee in a way thats not conductive to Melee Gameplay to act as a maximized Stat Stick.
And making it somehow use your Melee directly and scale of properties like modded Attack Speed and Range makes it go against the theme of "going Beastmode".

It can also certainly use more AoE, yeah you can spread the Slash Procs it generates with 2, but only if the 2 itself applied Slahs itself and making youc ast 2 before every single charge isn't very exciting gameplay and just ends up feeling slow and not worthwhile.

On that note I'd also like to point out that her 2 has a base spread range fo 7 meters, 19.6 meters at 280% Range. Meanwhile Nezha is due to receive an Augment in the next Update that spreads all Status effects to all enemies speared by his 4, which has a base range of 19 meters, 53.2 meters at 280% Range. The former is a core aspect of a Frame, the latter is just an Augment adding brand new functionality to a Frame.
So, while Ulfrun's Descent stands out as particularly bad, I think she could take another look as a whole to really iron her out and figure out what she is supposed to be good at and what is supposed to make her stand out.

[quxier]

40 minutes ago, WindShadow970 said:

 

I feel it should interact with the combo counter on some level, because melee gameplan. To allow the player to choose at their leisure between claw and blade, combo counter multiplier should be transferrable to Ulfrun's Descent and vice versa. The Aoe on hit needs to be better, it very quickly does nothing but slightly annoy enemies. I'd also like for it have a normal crit multiplier instead on the weird stuff going on in the background,

I think my 4th can kill SP circuit.

I think it needs better integration with his whole kit. 4th acting as melee (so 1st buff without deactivation, orb drops from 3) is good start. However it needs better and consistent spread of slash. You can put 2nd, wish for slash proc, attack with (1+)4 and if it's slash, it should kill other enemies as well. However if it's not slash then it's "meh".

Then the jump from 2nd is not neccessary. It works against 4th (jumps as well).

 

[WindShadow970]

13 minutes ago, Raikh said:

On that note I'd also like to point out that her 2 has a base spread range fo 7 meters, 19.6 meters at 280% Range. Meanwhile Nezha is due to receive an Augment in the next Update that spreads all Status effects to all enemies speared by his 4, which has a base range of 19 meters, 53.2 meters at 280% Range. The former is a core aspect of a Frame, the latter is just an Augment adding brand new functionality to a Frame

Voruna 2 is a consistent status primer, strong gap closer and a build defining ability. I can personally live with the range, it's likely a measure in place to nudge the player to cast more frequently for the frantic feel she has going on.

[Tiltskillet]

28 minutes ago, Raikh said:

On that note I'd also like to point out that her 2 has a base spread range fo 7 meters, 19.6 meters at 280% Range. Meanwhile Nezha is due to receive an Augment in the next Update that spreads all Status effects to all enemies speared by his 4, which has a base range of 19 meters, 53.2 meters at 280% Range. The former is a core aspect of a Frame, the latter is just an Augment adding brand new functionality to a Frame.

Because Nezha is getting a potentially great status augment for his 4, Voruna's 2, since it also spreads status, needs to be buffed or reworked?  wat

Seems like if anything you should be making a suggestion for a Fangs augment.

 

[Raikh]

3 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

Because Nezha is getting a potentially great status augment for his 4, Voruna's 2, since it also spreads status, needs to be buffed or reworked?  wat

Its more that I find it questionable that a Warframe centered around applying and spreading Status effects has less than half the range doing so than a simple Warframe Augment of a Warframe that isn't centered around that idea.

Its not that I would demand a change because of that but that I wonder if the idea behind Voruna and its implementation are still up to date with what is perceived acceptable in the game or if she could use some love to emphasize her core identity as a Frame and what that idea is really supposed to be, which also extends to the rest of her kit and the somewhat conflicting nature of her 4 and emphasizing the use of Melee.

9 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

Seems like if anything you should be making a suggestion for a Fangs augment.

I don't think making an Augment arms race out of that is a good idea.

[Waeleto]

Warframe players when they need to consider the ability in their builds and use it for it to be useful:

1 hour ago, WindShadow970 said:

it demands you build and play around it otherwise it serves little to no purpose

In all seriousness tho, Voruna is fine, her 4 doesn't need to be pseudo exalted to be good and tbh we don't need more pseudo exalteds until that whole weird system is reworked idc if it's broken and causes crazy numbers it's a bad system and it needs to go

If anything would be done to voruna it'd be integrating her augment into base kit since this augment fixed all her problems

as for comparing her 4th to her melee, Voruna has 2 playstyles, one as an ability caster nuke with her 4th and the other is a melee platform while subsuming over her 4th, you're free to choose whichever playstyle suits you there is NO NEED at all for both to be mixed and it's fine (in fact it's good) when a warframe has multiple viable playstyles

Some people have that thing that they need to fix something that simply doesn't work as they WANT it to work even if it's not broken

[WindShadow970]

40 minutes ago, Waeleto said:

Warframe players when they need to consider the ability in their builds and use it for it to be useful

There is an issue when you have to specialise your build for an ability to function, not function better but to simply function.

40 minutes ago, Waeleto said:

If anything would be done to voruna it'd be integrating her augment into base kit since this augment fixed all her problems

Does it fix the helplessness against Nullifers while in her 4 state? It doesn't. If your abilities are nullified, does it fix you starting from a cold start against harder to kill enemies? It doesn't. I want to that addressed in a sustainable way.

44 minutes ago, Waeleto said:

as for comparing her 4th to her melee, Voruna has 2 playstyles, one as an ability caster nuke with her 4th and the other is a melee platform while subsuming over her 4th, you're free to choose whichever playstyle suits you there is NO NEED at all for both to be mixed and it's fine (in fact it's good) when a warframe has multiple viable playstyles

I argue they need not be mutually exclusive, in fact them being mutually exclusive led to the problems above as well as her 4 augment existing. You wouldn't need the augment at all if you could maintain the multiplier.

Bear in mind that you would still be able to specialise into one side or the other

Secondly something should feel missing if you subsume over any ability much less your ultimate in a complete kit. If you feel nothing, as is the case with Voruna, there is something very wrong with that ability and it needs to be looked at (same goes for Wisp and others).

[Waeleto]

34 minutes ago, WindShadow970 said:

Does it fix the helplessness against Nullifers while in her 4 state? It doesn't. If your abilities are nullified, does it fix you starting from a cold start against harder to kill enemies? It doesn't. I want to that addressed in a sustainable way.

Any ability dps warframe suffers from this and not just voruna it's called a game mechanic

35 minutes ago, WindShadow970 said:

I argue they need not be mutually exclusive

Yes they should in fact all warframes should have different build, the modding system allows you to build according to your playstyle, you can't just have it all

36 minutes ago, WindShadow970 said:

Secondly something should feel missing if you subsume over any ability much less your ultimate in a complete kit. If you feel nothing, as is the case with Voruna, there is something very wrong with that ability and it needs to be looked at (same goes for Wisp and others).

The ability is fine but if it doesn't compliment the playstyle i'm going for i'll happily subsume over it, yes there are useless abilities in the game but voruna's 4th isn't one of them

It feels like you're just arguing because voruna doesn't work like YOU want her to work, she is fine if she's not your cup of tea it's okay pick up another warframe

[quxier]

2 hours ago, WindShadow970 said:

2 hours ago, Raikh said:

On that note I'd also like to point out that her 2 has a base spread range fo 7 meters, 19.6 meters at 280% Range. Meanwhile Nezha is due to receive an Augment in the next Update that spreads all Status effects to all enemies speared by his 4, which has a base range of 19 meters, 53.2 meters at 280% Range. The former is a core aspect of a Frame, the latter is just an Augment adding brand new functionality to a Frame

Voruna 2 is a consistent status primer, strong gap closer and a build defining ability. I can personally live with the range, it's likely a measure in place to nudge the player to cast more frequently for the frantic feel she has going on.

It's not consistent. It spread random 5 statuses. So if you want spread slash (4th main status) then you just have to "pray" for good roll. Sure, it's 5/13 chance (I assume that you cannot proc 2 same status) but it's still not consistent.

ps. gap closer could be problem when worked with 4th

1 hour ago, Waeleto said:

If anything would be done to voruna it'd be integrating her augment into base kit since this augment fixed all her problems

+1

43 minutes ago, WindShadow970 said:

Does it fix the helplessness against Nullifers while in her 4 state? It doesn't. If your abilities are nullified, does it fix you starting from a cold start against harder to kill enemies? It doesn't. I want to that addressed in a sustainable way.

It's not Voruna but many frames' problem with Nullies.

7 minutes ago, Waeleto said:

44 minutes ago, WindShadow970 said:

I argue they need not be mutually exclusive

Yes they should in fact all warframes should have different build, the modding system allows you to build according to your playstyle, you can't just have it all

I think you can (& should) have it all. Not all playstyles should have all abilities strong but at least they should be usable. If you make one ability strong and another useless then there is a problem, imho.

In case of Voruna you can have few different styles working together. You can have melee platform (buff with 1st, condition overload with 2nd, energy/hp with 3rd) or use ultimate (same but with randomness of 2nd)

[Fred_Avant_2019]

If you can get your stacks, then the claws can oneshot anything in level cap steel path, with bleed procs chewing on thrax overguard like it's nothing.

That ability is outright unplayable without the augment, which is really cringe. It should have been the base functionality, not a bandaid -9 capacity.

 

Also one thing that's infurtiating, if your slash proc kills, you do refresh your stack count, but you do not gain a multiplier. Lame. And I bet it's there JUST to hold back the ability even more.

[Raikh]

5 hours ago, WindShadow970 said:

Voruna 2 is a consistent status primer, strong gap closer and a build defining ability. I can personally live with the range, it's likely a measure in place to nudge the player to cast more frequently for the frantic feel she has going on.

Its build defining and also identity defining for her because regardless of branching out into Melee or Ulfrun's you want to interact with what Fangs of Raksh does. Thats why this stark contrast in Range of a Status spreading ability stands out to me so much. Not saying Fangs should have THAT much Range baseline but I do wonder if maybe they were a bit more conservative with such an effect when they did Voruna but are now more comfortable going further with it.

I need to sink some more time into playing Voruna but I've felt that basically anything immediately around Voruna's 2 target tends to die to Melee w/o Fangs spread really doing much to them. So the targets the spread really ends up affecting are those not immediately in melee range, which makes building Max Range or close to Max Range feel somewhat necessary, rather than a real choice.

And to loop that back to your original points, if you now also increased the AoE of Ulfrun's to a significant degree I'd imagine it being a similar situation. Especially should Ulfrun's and regular Melee flow more effectively into one another as suggested it becomes more and more likely that you don't need the Fangs Status Spread for your immediate targets but the ones after that, where Range plays a big role.

[WindShadow970]

13 minutes ago, Raikh said:

I need to sink some more time into playing Voruna but I've felt that basically anything immediately around Voruna's 2 target tends to die to Melee w/o Fangs spread really doing much to them. So the targets the spread really ends up affecting are those not immediately in melee range, which makes building Max Range or close to Max Range feel somewhat necessary, rather than a real choice.

I don't quite agree that you need max range for Fangs, her energy upkeep is so good that she can simply cast it again whenever moving to the next clump of enemies to kill.

I do agree however that light tier units do tend to die anyway without Condition Overload priming, but that's more the durability of the targets being low rather than the ability being not doing much if that makes sense. You still want some sort of spread to happen or just have them tagged with 5 effects to keep Lycath's Hunt going. If the target I need primed wasn't in spread range, 8/10 times I have the energy to directly prime them, with that in mind I end up cutting a bit of range and opt for more durability or power strength. I personally don't feel the range issue but I sort of get the angle you're coming from.

27 minutes ago, Raikh said:

Not saying Fangs should have THAT much Range baseline but I do wonder if maybe they were a bit more conservative with such an effect when they did Voruna but are now more comfortable going further with it

They made the Mecha set long before Voruna, so I'd say they have long been comfortable with wider range spreads. Which is why I think it's more that they want to cast for one small group then the next rather than prime close to a whole room in one cast (though the latter would be better for preventing Repetitive strain injuries but that's a different topic).

[WindShadow970]

4 hours ago, Waeleto said:

Any ability dps warframe suffers from this and not just voruna it's called a game mechanic

 

5 hours ago, quxier said:

It's not Voruna but many frames' problem with Nullies

Every other Ability DPS frame loses little to no damage output from pausing to pop Nullifier bubbles, in cases like Mesa where she needs to fully focus again it takes her less than 5 seconds to do so. In Voruna's case she forfeits all her built up Ulfrun multiplier to deal with Nullifiers either with a gun or her melee weapon, it then takes a noticeable while to build it back up again, no other ability DPS setup suffers from this because they are able to easily use their weapons to quickly deal with problems that their abilities cannot. Is it so unpalatably wrong that I want Voruna to able to do this without losing all of her 4's multiplier stacks?

5 hours ago, Waeleto said:

5 hours ago, WindShadow970 said:

I argue they need not be mutually exclusive

Yes they should in fact all warframes should have different build, the modding system allows you to build according to your playstyle, you can't just have it all

You don't need mutually exclusive playstyles to have different builds. There are numerous examples of this being the case.

5 hours ago, Waeleto said:

if she's not your cup of tea it's okay pick up another warframe

No, I'll provide suggestions for things I have issue with then a developer to do whatever they want with it but it is important that feedback is given.

[quxier]

6 hours ago, WindShadow970 said:

11 hours ago, quxier said:

It's not Voruna but many frames' problem with Nullies

Every other Ability DPS frame loses little to no damage output from pausing to pop Nullifier bubbles, in cases like Mesa where she needs to fully focus again it takes her less than 5 seconds to do so. In Voruna's case she forfeits all her built up Ulfrun multiplier to deal with Nullifiers either with a gun or her melee weapon, it then takes a noticeable while to build it back up again, no other ability DPS setup suffers from this because they are able to easily use their weapons to quickly deal with problems that their abilities cannot. Is it so unpalatably wrong that I want Voruna to able to do this without losing all of her 4's multiplier stacks?

Sure, going into nully buble may not be universally fair (e.g. Inaros loose all armor as well). However what I mean by "problems with Nullies" is their bubble is hardly affected via powers. Still for some abilities you can go into Operator mode to deal with bubble. I'm not sure if that's the case of voruna.

[sunderthefirmament]

16 hours ago, DeathOfASaint said:

ulfruns just feels like a bad melee tbh, ability needs to go or a complete rework

 

Yep. It’s too clunky for me to want to use it regularly. When Voruna first dropped, I almost immediately Helminthed the ability away. I only looked back and tried it again when she got the augment. 
 

I have more fun using the rest of her kit and melee than I do with her 4. And with Tennokai, I can now live in her 1 passive, which makes her feel especially freeing to play. 

[WindShadow970]

2 hours ago, quxier said:

you can go into Operator mode to deal with bubble. I'm not sure if that's the case of voruna

It is possible with Voruna, it's a messy solution in my eyes but it is a solution all the same.

[Xzorn]

She's built to play the way she plays. I have no idea why her 4th was an augment when she has 3 Bleed synergy skills but they did it.

Her passives are entirely pointless. Trying to play her outside perma invis, hunt and Ulfren just result in a bad melee frame while she's quite capable otherwise. That's Voruna. The rest is deceptive nonsense IMO. The higher level you go with her. The more you prime with her 2nd. That's all there really is to it.

I like using her in SP Circuit because she only needs 2 decrees to 1 pounce level 2,000 enemies or 2 pounce Eximus.
Also use Miter on Nullifiers then jump back into invis or just don't fight Corpus with her. Either is a good option.

[DeathOfASaint]

1 hour ago, Xzorn said:

 

Her passives are entirely pointless. Trying to play her outside perma invis, hunt and Ulfren just result in a bad melee frame while she's quite capable otherwise.

her passives are good though, 2 is complete status immunity and 1 passive is literally gauss but faster and more maneuverable 
shes arguably the best melee frame or atleast 2nd best
i like her more than kullervo since i dont have to setup collective curse and whatnot

but i think the new nezha augment is kinda powercreepy and they should let you select what statuses you get with her 2, you can literally sometimes nuke rooms or do no damage because of the status effects



like seriously your 100k bleed procs just become 1m bleed procs lmao ?
and 100k is barely any investment
 ignoring the heat procs and whatnot

nezha can literally do vorunas job of priming enemies better than voruna herself, if you spear 20 enemies you get 400 heat procs in a much higher range lol

cedo+new augment is just gonna 1 shot everything 

Edited March 9 by DeathOfASaint

[Xzorn]

17 minutes ago, DeathOfASaint said:

her passives are good though, 2 is complete status immunity and 1 passive is literally gauss but faster and more maneuverable 
shes arguably the best melee frame or atleast 2nd best

 

You need her 2nd ability or she's doesn't really do anything.

More durable frames that can melee don't even care about status immunity anymore and some like Rhino are immune anyways.

If she's not Perma invis she's a brittle frame. If she's not spamming her 2nd she has poor damage. If she doesn't have Hunt she can't spam per 2nd.

Her passives are a trap.

[WindShadow970]

2 hours ago, Xzorn said:

Her passives are a trap.

I wouldn't say they're a trap but that they are "nice to have but ultimately not necessary" beneficial effects. She functions regardless of whether you have them or not but the effects themselves are decent...except the 4th one.

[DeathOfASaint]

2 hours ago, Xzorn said:

If she's not Perma invis she's a brittle frame. If she's not spamming her 2nd she has poor damage. If she doesn't have Hunt she can't spam per 2nd.

 

shieldgating exists? brief respite? shes as squishy as 90% of the frames so no shes not really squishy
you cant even perma invis with her because her invis breaks upon a melee attack

her 3 literally has 100% uptime if you're getting kills (you should be getting kills because shes a dps frame)
have you even played her lol?

why would you not use her 2nd ability, 1 has a usecase of mobility between tilesets since its a speed boost stacking with her 1 passive

[Raikh]

On 2024-03-08 at 4:19 AM, WindShadow970 said:

I do agree however that light tier units do tend to die anyway without Condition Overload priming, but that's more the durability of the targets being low rather than the ability being not doing much if that makes sense.

That is absolutely what my issue comes down to, yes. Right now there is practically no content accessible in the game outside of Endurance Runs, which are far too out there to be considered real content imo, where priming enemies via a on-kill mechanic in the immediate vicinity would be very useful to me. If something is in swinging range its not gonna live long enough for there to be value in it being primed after the first enemy dies. So my main hope would be carrying this on to enemies that are not yet in the process of being killed.

Energy isn't really a concern there due to Hunt + Equilibrium but thats also precsiely why recasting Hunt wouldn't even be a problem, extending it is more of a convenience than a requirement.

I also do not mind spamming Fangs, thats not the issue. I have enjoyed playing Dagath who is all about spamming her 1 to spread her Doom everywhere. But Dagath gets her pay-off because she can spread it beyond the boundaries of her immediate attack range and its not on-kill, so it does consistently do something even to enemies in immediate attack range.

What I was hoping to do was carry the status onwards with Voruna, I hop into a bunch of enemies, throw in Fangs, blow them up and and when I come to the next group I find some enemies already primed, I can immediately blow them up but I can also cast Fangs again to further propagate this and keep the dynamic going as I move through the map or have enemies come at me bit by bit. As it is right now I often feel like I'm wasting my time with Fangs and thus wasting my time playing Voruna, compared to other Melee Frame options that can just hit harder upfront or cover more space with their damage.

Particularly egregious with her 4 aswell because that one really embraces the idea of carrying ST dmg to AoE on kill and combined with the RNG aspect of Fangs I have mostly ended up wondering what I'm even doing because I could've just swept through the room with melee manually before the combo popped off. And not because its not powerful, it is really powerful or atleast can be, but I don't feel like it matches the pace of the game. And thats before considering how Ulfrun's can be bullied by other aspects of the game like Nullifiers as was already being discussed.

 

 

 

Edited March 10 by Raikh

[Fred_Avant_2019]

Il y a 7 heures, DeathOfASaint a dit :

you cant even perma invis with her because her invis breaks upon a melee attack

It comes right back if you're using her abilities though. No reason to use Voruna just for guns and melees.

il y a 58 minutes, Raikh a dit :

That is absolutely what my issue comes down to, yes. Right now there is practically no content accessible in the game outside of Endurance Runs, which are far too out there to be considered real content imo, where priming enemies via a on-kill mechanic in the immediate vicinity would be very useful to me. If something is in swinging range its not gonna live long enough for there to be value in it being primed after the first enemy dies. So my main hope would be carrying this on to enemies that are not yet in the process of being killed.

Energy isn't really a concern there due to Hunt + Equilibrium but thats also precsiely why recasting Hunt wouldn't even be a problem, extending it is more of a convenience than a requirement.

I also do not mind spamming Fangs, thats not the issue. I have enjoyed playing Dagath who is all about spamming her 1 to spread her Doom everywhere. But Dagath gets her pay-off because she can spread it beyond the boundaries of her immediate attack range and its not on-kill, so it does consistently do something even to enemies in immediate attack range.

What I was hoping to do was carry the status onwards with Voruna, I hop into a bunch of enemies, throw in Fangs, blow them up and and when I come to the next group I find some enemies already primed, I can immediately blow them up but I can also cast Fangs again to further propagate this and keep the dynamic going as I move through the map or have enemies come at me bit by bit. As it is right now I often feel like I'm wasting my time with Fangs and thus wasting my time playing Voruna, compared to other Melee Frame options that can just hit harder upfront or cover more space with their damage.

Particularly egregious with her 4 aswell because that one really embraces the idea of carrying ST dmg to AoE on kill and combined with the RNG aspect of Fangs I have mostly ended up wondering what I'm even doing because I could've just swept through the room with melee manually before the combo popped off. And not because its not powerful, it is really powerful or atleast can be, but I don't feel like it matches the pace of the game. And thats before considering how Ulfrun's can be bullied by other aspects of the game like Nullifiers as was already being discussed.

 

 

 

You can't just go ahead and fix the frame like that. You just can't. Not when a bunch of delusional content creators claim her to be some A tier material on release.