thats_rudiculous_07 Posted March 30 Share Posted March 30 On 2024-03-28 at 4:33 PM, MarakViri said: This seems to be something we both believe true of the other. You seem to be reading, but not really understanding several of my points. That might be mutual as well honestly. I understand that my posts can be read that way, so I understand why this would be the conclusion you would come to. Still seems a bit excessive to devolve into insults so quickly, but perhaps that's simply my lacking of understanding as to "brevity" being the source of wit or something. After all, you are certainly concise with your insults. My question would then have to be "why would you sacrifice that mod". Because, yes, there is a mod that can provide 99% Ability Strength. But nobody is saying that you have to exclude that mod. The mod you exclude could be [Augur Message] on some builds, because some frames don't really need all of their ability slots to be dedicated to a single thing. But, if you choose to sacrifice [Blind Rage] in place of [Total Eclipse] on a build in which [Blind Rage] is viable, you do you. ... Okay, so you are doubling the ranges off the bat. Interesting approach. As to number two, I would argue that to be a trade-off as opposed to a downside, as you have to be within range of Roar at the moment of casting to receive the buff and, as the ability isn't recastable (unless you run the augment), this can leave you without the buff for up to (if not over) a minute. Your third point (specifically regarding [Narrow Minded]) is just straight correct though. Changing the ranges from 15/25 to 5.1/8.5. Of course, [Piercing Roar] would alter that back up to 18.5 meters, which is a massive difference in Range, which makes it very worth the mod slot, unlike in the case of [Total Eclipse]. Again, insulting (though not actually an insult, so progress). We are, as I've stated before, simply in disagreement over how powerful Eclipse should be in comparison to Roar. You want it to be, hands down, the better weapon buff, and at a rate that it compensates for the damage Roar provides to abilities (for some reason). I understood this quite a while ago, and your remarks on Master-v-Jack was my understanding of what you wanted. "Roar was always designed to be one size fits all buff" ... well, no, but also yes. It was designed back before damage buffs were really a thing. That's why it's coded as Faction Damage, because old DE loved to tie systems together to make the game function through the spaghetti code. But, even if that were false, the fact that Roar pre-dates Eclipse quite significantly. Regardless, it has become the Jack-of-all-Trades Damage Buff, so let's roll with that. True! Mirage isn't a support frame. I mean, she has CC viability, a damage buff and damage reduction buff, a nuke ability, and another damage enhancer, but she is not a support frame. Do you know who else isn't technically a support frame? Chroma. He's a DPS frame. Two of his abilities (Elemental Ward and Vex Armor) both function the way that [Total Eclipse] does. What I find funny is that you disagree with me ... only to agree with me. Because your proposed change to [Total Eclipse] would have it functioning exactly the way that [Everlasting Ward] does, which was my suggestion. Funny how that works. Oh, but I'm sure you knew that. After all, your very careful with your words, and have immaculate understanding of these topics. I've always known what frames what Roar. You, however, don't seem to know which frames want Eclipse, as you keep trying to tie its damage output potential to match the output potential of a Roar boosted ability, though I could be mistaken. But speaking of your Miasma math could I have a breakdown, because I'm not entirely sure how you got those numbers. This might be a lack of understanding on my part (which would probably account for a large part of the misunderstandings we seem to be having), so it would be greatly appreciated. It depends on how you choose to build the frame. My Roar-Saryn, for example, has it subsumed in place of Miasma. Is this the most optimal for the meta? Probably not. Do I enjoy the build far more? Absolutely. And to me, when I am playing a game, my own enjoyment has a far higher value than straight statistical performance potential. But yes, with their current values (equal at 30%), Eclipse is only better at weapon damage when modded for faction damage and you disregard DoT damage. Thus, you know, the entire post chain regarding the incorrect values. Well no, you have proven that you aren't willing to listen to any argument I make. I have mentioned before that my intent with the numbers I proposed was to let Roar remain stronger in regards to DoT damage at higher power strengths. We are arguing for two different results. However, let's shift entirely to your idea of Eclipse completely outdoing Roar when it comes to weapon damage, because you certainly aren't going to adopt what you see as an incorrect interpretation (DE claimed that they wanted the pick rate of Eclipse to go down after all, and your proposal doesn't really achieve that). No, your "understanding" of my point is the surface level. You disagree with the intent behind my numbers, and that's okay. You seem to be looking at this as if these are the only two abilities that need to be balanced around each other, and that they both need to be better at something. Maybe this is true. But half the subsume abilities don't get used unless someone has a specific need for it. Roar fits the "I need a damage increase", and is on an early-game frame. Eclipse is hidden behind a quest (or the Circuit I suppose), and is only good for weapon damage. Having it always be better than Roar is, in my opinion, not the way the ability should be altered. If you can find the math that has the damage and DoT be better when paired with a Faction Mod, but not better when lacking it, then I will agree with that value. Eclipse should have the potential to be better when built correctly. It is a weapon buffing ability, so it makes sense that the weapon should be built to maximise that. After all, it's not the plug-and-play, jack-of-all-trades ability that Roar is. No, I didn't pull it out of nowhere. I started at 50%, then realised it outscaled too well. In retrospect, that may have been hasty (I didn't do comprehensive, inclusive math, and only did some surface level math), but my initial idea was a sweet spot of 50-60%. But yes, I suppose that the diminished value lacks the general logic in comparison to the source values. By that logic, 50% would be far better (being a 75% reduction instead of a 77.5% reduction). Again with the insults. Here's the thing with a "Standard". They are based on a "Precedent", and those get created. There was no diminished helminth abilities until there were. There was no 85% reduction either, but now there is. That's kind of the point. They aren't based on a "Standard", but on a semblance (true or otherwise) of "Balance". Yes. The source abilities are fine. The reason they went beyond 60% for Eclipse was because of the values themselves (50% v 200%). The 60% reduction to "match" the diminishing of Roar would still leave it at 120% (which they for some reason think is four times stronger than Roar, which we know it just isn't due to how they function, but whatever). Applying the diminish of 60% to the already diminished value seems poor (that's actually a 65% diminish technically), but averaging the two values as a compromise is a fair enough reason. And honestly, once I did the math at 45%, I didn't really factor in the diminish percentage, 85% was bad enough that I didn't really care honestly. If the perfect "balance" had it at 63.134532% or something, then so be it. After all, this is all just theoretical anyway. And again, insults? Really? Is that the only way you know of that allows you to convey your opinion and perspective? You say whole lot of nothing to justify your points. If you have to write an entire essay to just to justify your points then your clear wrong. I read your guys who conversation. You seem to assume that eclipse would still be used after this. That clearly not going to happen because people won't choose a 1 to 1 ability when it like 3 roar to 1 eclipse ability. On 2024-03-27 at 6:52 AM, MarakViri said: ... because this isn't the "obvious solution" maybe? 100% is obscenely better than 30% (like, exponentially). Let's do some quick math for you, where Eclipse provides Uniquely Multiplicative damage equal to Ability Strength (as you proposed), and compare it to Roar and it's 30% at base, both with and without the Primed Faction Mods, to see the damage difference (and DoT difference), assuming a base damage of let's say 1000 (for the easy math). At 100% Power Strength Faction Mod Eclipse : 1000 * 1.55* 2 = 3100 DoT : 3,100 * 1.55 * 0.35 == 1681.75 Roar : 1000 * 1.85 = 1850 DoT = 1850 * 1.85 * 0.34 == 1197.875 No Faction Mod Eclipse : 1000 * 2 = 2000 DoT : 2000 * 0.35 == 700 Roar = 1000 * 1.3 = 1300 DoT : 1300 * 1.3 * 0.35 == 591.5 At 500% Power Strength Faction Mod Eclipse : 1000 * 1.55 * 6 = 9300 DoT : 9300 * 1.55 * 0.35 == 5045.25 Roar : 1000 * 3.05 = 3050 DoT : 3050 * 3.05 * 0.35 == 3255.875 No Faction Mod Eclipse : 1000 * 6 = 6000 DoT : 6000 * 0.35 == 2100 Roar : 1000 * 1.5 = 1500 DoT = 1500 * 1.5 * 0.35 == 787.5 At 1000% Power Strength Faction Mod Eclipse : 1000 * 1.55 * 11 = 17050 DoT : 17050 * 1.55 * 0.35 == 9249.625 Roar : 1000 * 4.55 = 4550 DoT : 4550 * 4.55 * 0.35 == 7245.875 No Faction Mod Eclipse : 1000 * 11 = 11000 DoT : 11000 * 0.35 == 3850 Roar : 1000 * 3 = 3000 DoT : 3000 * 3 * 0.35 == 3150 Do you see the theme? There is no achievable level of Power Strength where Roar will deal more weapon damage than Eclipse, be it Raw Damage or DoT damage, even without a source of Faction Damage on the weapon, provided the builds are the same. While it would still allow you to deal Faction Damage through abilities (and thus still gain quadratic scaling for them), very few frames actually care about that. Additionally, [Total Eclipse] allows you to provide the buff from Eclipse to your teammates so long as they are within range. I do, however, agree that they should increase the DR cap to 90% and lower the initial value from 75% to compensate (and ideally let Mirage reach the cap of 95% still). Altering the energy cost makes no real difference, and, with the 100% scaling, this ability could instead cost 100% of your maximum energy, and it would still be the most energy efficient damage enhancement ability available in the helminth when weapon damage is concerned. Roar gets applied to allies within 25 meters by default, and they maintain this regardless of how far they go after the cast until the duration expires. This, alongside the ability to increase ability damage, and ultimately being a better damage increase should be the benefits of running the ability. In order to achieve a similar thing, Eclipse needs it's augment mod (which will create a pale imitation of Roar's damage support for teammates), and has a shorter duration by default (compensated by the lower energy cost). Eclipse doesnt double dip on DOTs . Right On 2024-03-30 at 8:04 AM, HeavyFarms said: What you believe or think is irrelevant. You don't have reasoning behind your thoughts, only they substanceless thoughts alone. Like I said, nobody is going to use total eclipse for a 30% weapon damage buff. You think anyone is going to sacrifice a mod slot for total eclipse to buff their team for 45%? 90% is the only way that ability is going to have any kind of use. But you can't admit you are wrong. Eclipse could be buffed to 45%, its usage could be basically 0 and with nobody using it, would you have the honesty to admit you are wrong? We both know the answer is no. I call a spade a spade. Act like a spade, look like a spade, get called a spade. Its really not all that surprising. Cause and effect. Do I have to explain everything to you? The quote is "Brevity is the soul of wit." Intelligence lets you explain something simply. It also lets you get basic facts right, without being corrected constantly. That's the total distance the abilities reach. 15 meter radius is how much in diamter? 15x2 =? I guess I have to take back what I said about you understand math. Because #1 You said losing a mod slot wasn't "That much of a trade off". This is incorrect. Mods are the backbone to 90% of the games power. Because your statement is false, I am pointing it out to you, at your displeasure. #2 Total Eclipse was worth that sacrifice at one point. Again, you only think of things in a solo player perspective. As you saw from Roar, a team wide buff gives better overall results then a pure selfish mindset. On Mirage, you could very easily take a small hit to your personal damage, to the overall benefit of the whole team. And as I keep repeating myself, there's simply not enough of a positive trade off. Would you pick 15% more weapon damage, over losing 30% ability damage? The answer is no. That's why your suggestion of 45% weapon damage is so pathetically meager, nobody would ever run it. 30% on an Ash is 600 true damage on bladestorm plus bleed procs. 30% on Saryn is an extra 1k Miasma? Yup. Because that's the entire point of the ability. There's a reason why normal Eclipse scales better on weapons than Roar. To be hands down the better weapon buff. But wait, that wasn't enough was it? Normal Mirage does more than just scale better than Rhino. Its a numerically 4x increase over Rhino roar. So wait? Not only does the normal ability scale better, but it does so by 150% more? Its almost like just scaling eclipse better wasnt enough. If you had any grasp of logic, any vague concept of it; your argument against helminth eclipse would make sense in context of normal mirage vs rhino. You aren't witty enough to make an argument that makes sense. If you have two doctors, one being a general practitioner, the other being a very specialized surgeon, the surgeon is going to exceed 2-3x the ability of the general doctor in his specialized area. And Rhino is designed as a jack of all trades frame. 2 of Mirage's ability specifically built around weapon damage. Its clearly buit as a focus for her. That's her specialty. You can build her to specialize in CC with her other abilities, or you can make something with explosive ledgerman, but half of her kit revolves around getting the most of her weapons. Rhino has 1 movement ability. 1 tank ability. 1 support ability. 1 CC ability. Rhino is jack of all trades. Mirage is the master of one. Let me fix that for you. What you should have said was "Yes, and you're right." But you can't suprass your own ego. Rhino Roar always buffed weapons and abilities. So as Rhino got updated, they kept his roar as the jack of all trades ability. When Mirage was made, they specifically built her buff to be stronger, different, and hands down the better weapon buff ability. Strange how that works. Its really simple. Miasma does 600 damage a second with spores. It lasts 6 seconds. 3,600 damage. Roar at 30% increases that to 780. 4,680 damage. That's a damage increase of 1,080. Not including Spores. (Although I should include spores, because 30% more damage on your ability that grows stronger over time. Which is why you don't belong here. Great. Play however you want. But realize that how you play, isn't how others play. People aren't going to enjoy or notice an ability unless it is significant. So while you enjoy how you play, let others enjoy how they play. Cause nobody is enjoying eclipse right now. Nobody would enjoy it even with your suggestion. An extra 15% is going to be a drop of water in a desert. Because you haven't made a good argument yet. Like I said, Roar is a weapon damage buff, an ability buff, a companion buff and a team aoe buff. Even if you just run weapons and abilities, +15% weapon damage over roar isn't worth losing 30% ability damage. Let alone companion or team damage. +30% weapon damage more than roar for losing 30% ability damage is just cutting even. 30% up for 30% down. Most corrupted mods outside fleeting expertise give you a more enticing trade off. A bigger upside for the downside. +60% weapon damage more than roar (My beloved 90%) is the only value I'd go "It's worth running this instead of roar." I'd rather just go Mirage at this point. Toss any other helminth onto her if I wanted eclipse, cause I'd honestly just prefer a full refund on my resources and warframe I put into helminth. On 2024-03-30 at 8:04 AM, HeavyFarms said: What you believe or think is irrelevant. You don't have reasoning behind your thoughts, only they substanceless thoughts alone. Like I said, nobody is going to use total eclipse for a 30% weapon damage buff. You think anyone is going to sacrifice a mod slot for total eclipse to buff their team for 45%? 90% is the only way that ability is going to have any kind of use. But you can't admit you are wrong. Eclipse could be buffed to 45%, its usage could be basically 0 and with nobody using it, would you have the honesty to admit you are wrong? We both know the answer is no. I call a spade a spade. Act like a spade, look like a spade, get called a spade. Its really not all that surprising. Cause and effect. Do I have to explain everything to you? The quote is "Brevity is the soul of wit." Intelligence lets you explain something simply. It also lets you get basic facts right, without being corrected constantly. That's the total distance the abilities reach. 15 meter radius is how much in diamter? 15x2 =? I guess I have to take back what I said about you understand math. Because #1 You said losing a mod slot wasn't "That much of a trade off". This is incorrect. Mods are the backbone to 90% of the games power. Because your statement is false, I am pointing it out to you, at your displeasure. #2 Total Eclipse was worth that sacrifice at one point. Again, you only think of things in a solo player perspective. As you saw from Roar, a team wide buff gives better overall results then a pure selfish mindset. On Mirage, you could very easily take a small hit to your personal damage, to the overall benefit of the whole team. And as I keep repeating myself, there's simply not enough of a positive trade off. Would you pick 15% more weapon damage, over losing 30% ability damage? The answer is no. That's why your suggestion of 45% weapon damage is so pathetically meager, nobody would ever run it. 30% on an Ash is 600 true damage on bladestorm plus bleed procs. 30% on Saryn is an extra 1k Miasma? Yup. Because that's the entire point of the ability. There's a reason why normal Eclipse scales better on weapons than Roar. To be hands down the better weapon buff. But wait, that wasn't enough was it? Normal Mirage does more than just scale better than Rhino. Its a numerically 4x increase over Rhino roar. So wait? Not only does the normal ability scale better, but it does so by 150% more? Its almost like just scaling eclipse better wasnt enough. If you had any grasp of logic, any vague concept of it; your argument against helminth eclipse would make sense in context of normal mirage vs rhino. You aren't witty enough to make an argument that makes sense. If you have two doctors, one being a general practitioner, the other being a very specialized surgeon, the surgeon is going to exceed 2-3x the ability of the general doctor in his specialized area. And Rhino is designed as a jack of all trades frame. 2 of Mirage's ability specifically built around weapon damage. Its clearly buit as a focus for her. That's her specialty. You can build her to specialize in CC with her other abilities, or you can make something with explosive ledgerman, but half of her kit revolves around getting the most of her weapons. Rhino has 1 movement ability. 1 tank ability. 1 support ability. 1 CC ability. Rhino is jack of all trades. Mirage is the master of one. Let me fix that for you. What you should have said was "Yes, and you're right." But you can't suprass your own ego. Rhino Roar always buffed weapons and abilities. So as Rhino got updated, they kept his roar as the jack of all trades ability. When Mirage was made, they specifically built her buff to be stronger, different, and hands down the better weapon buff ability. Strange how that works. Its really simple. Miasma does 600 damage a second with spores. It lasts 6 seconds. 3,600 damage. Roar at 30% increases that to 780. 4,680 damage. That's a damage increase of 1,080. Not including Spores. (Although I should include spores, because 30% more damage on your ability that grows stronger over time. Which is why you don't belong here. Great. Play however you want. But realize that how you play, isn't how others play. People aren't going to enjoy or notice an ability unless it is significant. So while you enjoy how you play, let others enjoy how they play. Cause nobody is enjoying eclipse right now. Nobody would enjoy it even with your suggestion. An extra 15% is going to be a drop of water in a desert. Because you haven't made a good argument yet. Like I said, Roar is a weapon damage buff, an ability buff, a companion buff and a team aoe buff. Even if you just run weapons and abilities, +15% weapon damage over roar isn't worth losing 30% ability damage. Let alone companion or team damage. +30% weapon damage more than roar for losing 30% ability damage is just cutting even. 30% up for 30% down. Most corrupted mods outside fleeting expertise give you a more enticing trade off. A bigger upside for the downside. +60% weapon damage more than roar (My beloved 90%) is the only value I'd go "It's worth running this instead of roar." I'd rather just go Mirage at this point. Toss any other helminth onto her if I wanted eclipse, cause I'd honestly just prefer a full refund on my resources and warframe I put into helminth. On 2024-03-30 at 8:04 AM, HeavyFarms said: What you believe or think is irrelevant. You don't have reasoning behind your thoughts, only they substanceless thoughts alone. Like I said, nobody is going to use total eclipse for a 30% weapon damage buff. You think anyone is going to sacrifice a mod slot for total eclipse to buff their team for 45%? 90% is the only way that ability is going to have any kind of use. But you can't admit you are wrong. Eclipse could be buffed to 45%, its usage could be basically 0 and with nobody using it, would you have the honesty to admit you are wrong? We both know the answer is no. I call a spade a spade. Act like a spade, look like a spade, get called a spade. Its really not all that surprising. Cause and effect. Do I have to explain everything to you? The quote is "Brevity is the soul of wit." Intelligence lets you explain something simply. It also lets you get basic facts right, without being corrected constantly. That's the total distance the abilities reach. 15 meter radius is how much in diamter? 15x2 =? I guess I have to take back what I said about you understand math. Because #1 You said losing a mod slot wasn't "That much of a trade off". This is incorrect. Mods are the backbone to 90% of the games power. Because your statement is false, I am pointing it out to you, at your displeasure. #2 Total Eclipse was worth that sacrifice at one point. Again, you only think of things in a solo player perspective. As you saw from Roar, a team wide buff gives better overall results then a pure selfish mindset. On Mirage, you could very easily take a small hit to your personal damage, to the overall benefit of the whole team. And as I keep repeating myself, there's simply not enough of a positive trade off. Would you pick 15% more weapon damage, over losing 30% ability damage? The answer is no. That's why your suggestion of 45% weapon damage is so pathetically meager, nobody would ever run it. 30% on an Ash is 600 true damage on bladestorm plus bleed procs. 30% on Saryn is an extra 1k Miasma? Yup. Because that's the entire point of the ability. There's a reason why normal Eclipse scales better on weapons than Roar. To be hands down the better weapon buff. But wait, that wasn't enough was it? Normal Mirage does more than just scale better than Rhino. Its a numerically 4x increase over Rhino roar. So wait? Not only does the normal ability scale better, but it does so by 150% more? Its almost like just scaling eclipse better wasnt enough. If you had any grasp of logic, any vague concept of it; your argument against helminth eclipse would make sense in context of normal mirage vs rhino. You aren't witty enough to make an argument that makes sense. If you have two doctors, one being a general practitioner, the other being a very specialized surgeon, the surgeon is going to exceed 2-3x the ability of the general doctor in his specialized area. And Rhino is designed as a jack of all trades frame. 2 of Mirage's ability specifically built around weapon damage. Its clearly buit as a focus for her. That's her specialty. You can build her to specialize in CC with her other abilities, or you can make something with explosive ledgerman, but half of her kit revolves around getting the most of her weapons. Rhino has 1 movement ability. 1 tank ability. 1 support ability. 1 CC ability. Rhino is jack of all trades. Mirage is the master of one. Let me fix that for you. What you should have said was "Yes, and you're right." But you can't suprass your own ego. Rhino Roar always buffed weapons and abilities. So as Rhino got updated, they kept his roar as the jack of all trades ability. When Mirage was made, they specifically built her buff to be stronger, different, and hands down the better weapon buff ability. Strange how that works. Its really simple. Miasma does 600 damage a second with spores. It lasts 6 seconds. 3,600 damage. Roar at 30% increases that to 780. 4,680 damage. That's a damage increase of 1,080. Not including Spores. (Although I should include spores, because 30% more damage on your ability that grows stronger over time. Which is why you don't belong here. Great. Play however you want. But realize that how you play, isn't how others play. People aren't going to enjoy or notice an ability unless it is significant. So while you enjoy how you play, let others enjoy how they play. Cause nobody is enjoying eclipse right now. Nobody would enjoy it even with your suggestion. An extra 15% is going to be a drop of water in a desert. Because you haven't made a good argument yet. Like I said, Roar is a weapon damage buff, an ability buff, a companion buff and a team aoe buff. Even if you just run weapons and abilities, +15% weapon damage over roar isn't worth losing 30% ability damage. Let alone companion or team damage. +30% weapon damage more than roar for losing 30% ability damage is just cutting even. 30% up for 30% down. Most corrupted mods outside fleeting expertise give you a more enticing trade off. A bigger upside for the downside. +60% weapon damage more than roar (My beloved 90%) is the only value I'd go "It's worth running this instead of roar." I'd rather just go Mirage at this point. Toss any other helminth onto her if I wanted eclipse, cause I'd honestly just prefer a full refund on my resources and warframe I put into helminth. I agree totally with your point they said whole bunch fluff and I'm pretty sure that elcipse doesnt double dip on DOTs On 2024-03-30 at 8:04 AM, HeavyFarms said: What you believe or think is irrelevant. You don't have reasoning behind your thoughts, only they substanceless thoughts alone. Like I said, nobody is going to use total eclipse for a 30% weapon damage buff. You think anyone is going to sacrifice a mod slot for total eclipse to buff their team for 45%? 90% is the only way that ability is going to have any kind of use. But you can't admit you are wrong. Eclipse could be buffed to 45%, its usage could be basically 0 and with nobody using it, would you have the honesty to admit you are wrong? We both know the answer is no. I call a spade a spade. Act like a spade, look like a spade, get called a spade. Its really not all that surprising. Cause and effect. Do I have to explain everything to you? The quote is "Brevity is the soul of wit." Intelligence lets you explain something simply. It also lets you get basic facts right, without being corrected constantly. That's the total distance the abilities reach. 15 meter radius is how much in diamter? 15x2 =? I guess I have to take back what I said about you understand math. Because #1 You said losing a mod slot wasn't "That much of a trade off". This is incorrect. Mods are the backbone to 90% of the games power. Because your statement is false, I am pointing it out to you, at your displeasure. #2 Total Eclipse was worth that sacrifice at one point. Again, you only think of things in a solo player perspective. As you saw from Roar, a team wide buff gives better overall results then a pure selfish mindset. On Mirage, you could very easily take a small hit to your personal damage, to the overall benefit of the whole team. And as I keep repeating myself, there's simply not enough of a positive trade off. Would you pick 15% more weapon damage, over losing 30% ability damage? The answer is no. That's why your suggestion of 45% weapon damage is so pathetically meager, nobody would ever run it. 30% on an Ash is 600 true damage on bladestorm plus bleed procs. 30% on Saryn is an extra 1k Miasma? Yup. Because that's the entire point of the ability. There's a reason why normal Eclipse scales better on weapons than Roar. To be hands down the better weapon buff. But wait, that wasn't enough was it? Normal Mirage does more than just scale better than Rhino. Its a numerically 4x increase over Rhino roar. So wait? Not only does the normal ability scale better, but it does so by 150% more? Its almost like just scaling eclipse better wasnt enough. If you had any grasp of logic, any vague concept of it; your argument against helminth eclipse would make sense in context of normal mirage vs rhino. You aren't witty enough to make an argument that makes sense. If you have two doctors, one being a general practitioner, the other being a very specialized surgeon, the surgeon is going to exceed 2-3x the ability of the general doctor in his specialized area. And Rhino is designed as a jack of all trades frame. 2 of Mirage's ability specifically built around weapon damage. Its clearly buit as a focus for her. That's her specialty. You can build her to specialize in CC with her other abilities, or you can make something with explosive ledgerman, but half of her kit revolves around getting the most of her weapons. Rhino has 1 movement ability. 1 tank ability. 1 support ability. 1 CC ability. Rhino is jack of all trades. Mirage is the master of one. Let me fix that for you. What you should have said was "Yes, and you're right." But you can't suprass your own ego. Rhino Roar always buffed weapons and abilities. So as Rhino got updated, they kept his roar as the jack of all trades ability. When Mirage was made, they specifically built her buff to be stronger, different, and hands down the better weapon buff ability. Strange how that works. Its really simple. Miasma does 600 damage a second with spores. It lasts 6 seconds. 3,600 damage. Roar at 30% increases that to 780. 4,680 damage. That's a damage increase of 1,080. Not including Spores. (Although I should include spores, because 30% more damage on your ability that grows stronger over time. Which is why you don't belong here. Great. Play however you want. But realize that how you play, isn't how others play. People aren't going to enjoy or notice an ability unless it is significant. So while you enjoy how you play, let others enjoy how they play. Cause nobody is enjoying eclipse right now. Nobody would enjoy it even with your suggestion. An extra 15% is going to be a drop of water in a desert. Because you haven't made a good argument yet. Like I said, Roar is a weapon damage buff, an ability buff, a companion buff and a team aoe buff. Even if you just run weapons and abilities, +15% weapon damage over roar isn't worth losing 30% ability damage. Let alone companion or team damage. +30% weapon damage more than roar for losing 30% ability damage is just cutting even. 30% up for 30% down. Most corrupted mods outside fleeting expertise give you a more enticing trade off. A bigger upside for the downside. +60% weapon damage more than roar (My beloved 90%) is the only value I'd go "It's worth running this instead of roar." I'd rather just go Mirage at this point. Toss any other helminth onto her if I wanted eclipse, cause I'd honestly just prefer a full refund on my resources and warframe I put into helminth. On 2024-03-30 at 8:04 AM, HeavyFarms said: What you believe or think is irrelevant. You don't have reasoning behind your thoughts, only they substanceless thoughts alone. Like I said, nobody is going to use total eclipse for a 30% weapon damage buff. You think anyone is going to sacrifice a mod slot for total eclipse to buff their team for 45%? 90% is the only way that ability is going to have any kind of use. But you can't admit you are wrong. Eclipse could be buffed to 45%, its usage could be basically 0 and with nobody using it, would you have the honesty to admit you are wrong? We both know the answer is no. I call a spade a spade. Act like a spade, look like a spade, get called a spade. Its really not all that surprising. Cause and effect. Do I have to explain everything to you? The quote is "Brevity is the soul of wit." Intelligence lets you explain something simply. It also lets you get basic facts right, without being corrected constantly. That's the total distance the abilities reach. 15 meter radius is how much in diamter? 15x2 =? I guess I have to take back what I said about you understand math. Because #1 You said losing a mod slot wasn't "That much of a trade off". This is incorrect. Mods are the backbone to 90% of the games power. Because your statement is false, I am pointing it out to you, at your displeasure. #2 Total Eclipse was worth that sacrifice at one point. Again, you only think of things in a solo player perspective. As you saw from Roar, a team wide buff gives better overall results then a pure selfish mindset. On Mirage, you could very easily take a small hit to your personal damage, to the overall benefit of the whole team. And as I keep repeating myself, there's simply not enough of a positive trade off. Would you pick 15% more weapon damage, over losing 30% ability damage? The answer is no. That's why your suggestion of 45% weapon damage is so pathetically meager, nobody would ever run it. 30% on an Ash is 600 true damage on bladestorm plus bleed procs. 30% on Saryn is an extra 1k Miasma? Yup. Because that's the entire point of the ability. There's a reason why normal Eclipse scales better on weapons than Roar. To be hands down the better weapon buff. But wait, that wasn't enough was it? Normal Mirage does more than just scale better than Rhino. Its a numerically 4x increase over Rhino roar. So wait? Not only does the normal ability scale better, but it does so by 150% more? Its almost like just scaling eclipse better wasnt enough. If you had any grasp of logic, any vague concept of it; your argument against helminth eclipse would make sense in context of normal mirage vs rhino. You aren't witty enough to make an argument that makes sense. If you have two doctors, one being a general practitioner, the other being a very specialized surgeon, the surgeon is going to exceed 2-3x the ability of the general doctor in his specialized area. And Rhino is designed as a jack of all trades frame. 2 of Mirage's ability specifically built around weapon damage. Its clearly buit as a focus for her. That's her specialty. You can build her to specialize in CC with her other abilities, or you can make something with explosive ledgerman, but half of her kit revolves around getting the most of her weapons. Rhino has 1 movement ability. 1 tank ability. 1 support ability. 1 CC ability. Rhino is jack of all trades. Mirage is the master of one. Let me fix that for you. What you should have said was "Yes, and you're right." But you can't suprass your own ego. Rhino Roar always buffed weapons and abilities. So as Rhino got updated, they kept his roar as the jack of all trades ability. When Mirage was made, they specifically built her buff to be stronger, different, and hands down the better weapon buff ability. Strange how that works. Its really simple. Miasma does 600 damage a second with spores. It lasts 6 seconds. 3,600 damage. Roar at 30% increases that to 780. 4,680 damage. That's a damage increase of 1,080. Not including Spores. (Although I should include spores, because 30% more damage on your ability that grows stronger over time. Which is why you don't belong here. Great. Play however you want. But realize that how you play, isn't how others play. People aren't going to enjoy or notice an ability unless it is significant. So while you enjoy how you play, let others enjoy how they play. Cause nobody is enjoying eclipse right now. Nobody would enjoy it even with your suggestion. An extra 15% is going to be a drop of water in a desert. Because you haven't made a good argument yet. Like I said, Roar is a weapon damage buff, an ability buff, a companion buff and a team aoe buff. Even if you just run weapons and abilities, +15% weapon damage over roar isn't worth losing 30% ability damage. Let alone companion or team damage. +30% weapon damage more than roar for losing 30% ability damage is just cutting even. 30% up for 30% down. Most corrupted mods outside fleeting expertise give you a more enticing trade off. A bigger upside for the downside. +60% weapon damage more than roar (My beloved 90%) is the only value I'd go "It's worth running this instead of roar." I'd rather just go Mirage at this point. Toss any other helminth onto her if I wanted eclipse, cause I'd honestly just prefer a full refund on my resources and warframe I put into helminth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarakViri Posted March 30 Share Posted March 30 (edited) 2 hours ago, HeavyFarms said: Like I said, nobody is going to use total eclipse for a 30% weapon damage buff. You think anyone is going to sacrifice a mod slot for total eclipse to buff their team for 45%? 90% is the only way that ability is going to have any kind of use. Again, welcome to the conversation? I have said this in almost every single post when you quote it, so I don't see why you keep mentioning it. And, as you say later in the post, people play differently,(you technically say "Play however you want. But realize that how you play, isn't how others play", since you seem insistent on calling me out on paraphrasing. So, do I think anyone is going to sacrifice a mod slot for [Total Eclipse] in order to give their team a 45% weapon buff? Maybe. Especially since Roar is far more prevalent, and you can have both buff effects simultaneously. There will be times that, at 45% (which is not the number I stuck with, as you might recall (assuming you actually read the entire post, but as you seem to disregard anything that would come close to having your respond with something other than "you're wrong", you naturally avoid mentioning it (even if you probably still would go with a "no you're wrong" anyway)). On 2024-03-28 at 10:45 PM, MarakViri said: ... 90% value only scales correctly when no faction mods are included at all However, I am now more open to higher values, so congratulations. The way you went about it was very, very poor, but I am closer to agreeing with you then I was before. I could do the math to find the ideal value, but, honestly, I don't really care enough when there's no real benefit, but it's probably around 80% You know, this little bit here? But, of course, it's not your magic 90% of damage regarding the ability damage output of Saryn, but given that youi are arguing from the perspective of giving Roar every advantage, and Eclipse no advantage, I can't say I'm surprised. 2 hours ago, HeavyFarms said: I call a spade a spade. Act like a spade, look like a spade, get called a spade. Its really not all that surprising. Cause and effect. Do I have to explain everything to you? See, if you pointed only pointed out logical inconsistencies and errors, I might agree with you. However; On 2024-03-28 at 7:49 PM, HeavyFarms said: On 2024-03-28 at 11:25 AM, MarakViri said: I am aware You are in fact not. You quote me out of context. From a response of you claiming I do not use my brain. Not "you lack critical thinking" or something similar, but the straight disuse of my brain. What you are doing, to go along with your analogy, is seeing the spade and saying "You're a horrible pitchfork". 2 hours ago, HeavyFarms said: The quote is "Brevity is the soul of wit." Intelligence lets you explain something simply. It also lets you get basic facts right, without being corrected constantly It's amazing that you decide to single out a mis-quote, of all things (even when no indication of genuine quotation was implied) in order to shift your perspective into a place of intellectual superiority. I would say I'm surprised, but it certainly seems in character. 2 hours ago, HeavyFarms said: That's the total distance the abilities reach. 15 meter radius is how much in diamter? 15x2 =? I guess I have to take back what I said about you understand math Yes. But you gave no indication of diameter. I have been under the assumption that you were using the "official" stats, which have it calculated by radius (since you've constantly quoted "patch notes" and keep referring to the 30% Eclipse despite it's lack of relevance in our actual discussion at this point). 2 hours ago, HeavyFarms said: Because #1 You said losing a mod slot wasn't "That much of a trade off". This is incorrect. Mods are the backbone to 90% of the games power. Because your statement is false, I am pointing it out to you, at your displeasure. #2 Total Eclipse was worth that sacrifice at one point. Again, you only think of things in a solo player perspective. As you saw from Roar, a team wide buff gives better overall results then a pure selfish mindset. On Mirage, you could very easily take a small hit to your personal damage, to the overall benefit of the whole team. And as I keep repeating myself, there's simply not enough of a positive trade off. Would you pick 15% more weapon damage, over losing 30% ability damage? The answer is no. That's why your suggestion of 45% weapon damage is so pathetically meager, nobody would ever run it. 30% on an Ash is 600 true damage on bladestorm plus bleed procs. 30% on Saryn is an extra 1k Miasma? Yes, it's not that much of a trade-off, because most people don't sacrifice their best mod when needing to "sacrifice" a mod slot. Yes, they are the backbone to a large amount of the power the player wields. Again, very disingenuous in making the assumption that people are going to select [Blind Rage] as the mod to replace, but you've been doing similar things the entire time. No, I am not thinking from an exclusively Solo-Player perspective. I am also approaching it from the public matchmaking perspective and the pre-built squad perspective. Roar gives better overall results, yes. When did I say it didn't do this? You keep trying to strawman me, and it's getting very repetitive to explain my position when you keep assigning new ones to fit your argument. Would I pick additional weapon damage at the cost of losing ability damage? Depends on the frame I am using and the content it will be used in. It also depends on how I have the weapons modded, I suppose. But again, my number is no longer 45%. You could up that comparison to 80% as a generic point (as that's where I said it is most likely balanced), but that would require you to, you know, argue with validity instead of absurdism. Not all frames have high damaging abilities. Some would benefit more overall by having a larger increase to weapon damage. And, since Roar is better on ability-damage viable frames, chances are a teammate will have that anyway, allowing you to have both effects. You can't bring up the team-damage comparison without factoring in the team. But, since you are comparing these two abilities on Ability-Damage frames, I'm really not surprised (even if most frames have the capability to run Ability DPS at this point). But there are still frames that get little benefit from it. And again, you're playing by the min-max perspective. Saryn would likely use Roar even if Eclipse had the full 200% weapon damage because her primary form of damage is abilities. As is Ash's. If your going to make arguments, try doing it in good faith. 2 hours ago, HeavyFarms said: Yup. Because that's the entire point of the ability. There's a reason why normal Eclipse scales better on weapons than Roar. To be hands down the better weapon buff. But wait, that wasn't enough was it? Normal Mirage does more than just scale better than Rhino. Its a numerically 4x increase over Rhino roar. So wait? Not only does the normal ability scale better, but it does so by 150% more? Its almost like just scaling eclipse better wasnt enough. If you had any grasp of logic, any vague concept of it; your argument against helminth eclipse would make sense in context of normal mirage vs rhino. You aren't witty enough to make an argument that makes sense. If you have two doctors, one being a general practitioner, the other being a very specialized surgeon, the surgeon is going to exceed 2-3x the ability of the general doctor in his specialized area. A fair point, actually. And, again, my number is now around the 80% mark. Do you know how much Ability Strength Roar needs to outscale Eclipse at that number? Let's compare them at 500% to (80% and 90% Eclipse). I'll even give you the same benefit of assuming it affects all your teammates. Spoiler 500% Strength Primed Faction Mods (80%) Eclipse = 1000 * 1.55 * 5 == 7750 DoT = 7750 * 1.55 * 0.35 == 4204.375 (90%) Eclipse = 1000 * 1.55 * 5.5 == 8525 DoT = 6200 * 1.55 * 0.35 == 4624.8125 Roar === 1000 * 3.05 == 3050 DoT == 3255.875 Team Damage = 12200 Team DoT = 13023.5 Regular Faction Mod (80%) Eclipse = 1000 * 1.3 * 5 == 6500 DoT = 6500 * 1.3 * 0.35 == 2957.5 (90%) Eclipse = 1000 * 1.3 * 5.5 == 7150 DoT = 7150 * 1.3 * 0.35 == 3253.25 Roar == 1000 * 2.8 == 2800 DoT = 2800 * 2.8 * 0.35 == 2744 Team Damage == 11200 Team DoT = 10976 No Faction Mod (80%) Eclipse = 1000 * 5 == 5000 DoT = 5000 * 0.35 == 1750 (90%) Eclipse = 1000 * 5.5 == 5500 DoT = 5500 * 0.35 == 1925 Roar = 1000 * 2.5 == 2500 DoT = 2500 * 2.5 * 0.35 == 2187.5 Team Damage = 10000 Team DoT = 8750 What do we see here? The Raw Damage is higher at both values only at the individual level (being stronger than 2 people with all setups), but being outclassed at DoT damage in all setups too (the most prominent being the lack of faction damage, obviously). However, most people that run Roar don't mod the weapon for faction damage due to diminishing returns, so it's probably more accurate to factor at least one player under it aas having no faction mod. Regardless of all of that, it sill does more DoT damage. Functionally, these two numbers achieve the same effect. You are just too caught up in your "I use DPS abilities" argument to consider it from a perspective other than your own playstyle. So, yes, the surgeon is better than the general practitioner. But I'm probably not going to go to the surgeon for a headache. Even at the 31% weapon damage, it would be better if all you need is weapon damage (and disregard DoT damage). 2 hours ago, HeavyFarms said: And Rhino is designed as a jack of all trades frame. 2 of Mirage's ability specifically built around weapon damage. Its clearly buit as a focus for her. That's her specialty. You can build her to specialize in CC with her other abilities, or you can make something with explosive ledgerman, but half of her kit revolves around getting the most of her weapons. Rhino has 1 movement ability. 1 tank ability. 1 support ability. 1 CC ability. Rhino is jack of all trades. Mirage is the master of one. Yes, Rhino is diverse in his kit potential, true. Mirage is not particularly diverse, also true. Here's the thing though, Rhino himself doesn't really benefit from Roar. Why? Because it is his Support ability. It is intended for Support of your team more than Rhino himself, unlike Eclipse, which is intended to assist solely Mirage. They are, by their very nature, in-equal. DE tried to equalise them solely based on numerical matching, and failed. You are trying to match them based on diminish scaling, and that is better but still fails. Why? Because an apple and an orange will always be an apple and an orange, and everyone wants the orange to make apple juice. 2 hours ago, HeavyFarms said: Let me fix that for you. What you should have said was "Yes, and you're right." But you can't suprass your own ego. Rhino Roar always buffed weapons and abilities. So as Rhino got updated, they kept his roar as the jack of all trades ability. When Mirage was made, they specifically built her buff to be stronger, different, and hands down the better weapon buff ability. Strange how that works. Again, only quoting a small portion of my response to fit your narrative. That is the effect it has, not the intended cause. Yes, it has always buffed both ability and weapon damage (since it's introduction anyway). And, "as it got updated" implies they have actually looked at him with genuine desire to rework him. But, he functions well, is the new player favourite, and one of the most used frames at lower MR levels. And yes, Mirage in her base kit, is intended to have a better buff than Roar. So was Vex Armor (which is what they tried to do to Eclipse if you recall) which is significantly weaker. DE was very clearly trying to weaken the ability, even when compared to Roar. Now, you keep trying to go against that decision, which isn't going to happen (not again). I am trying to make it viable within those restraints. But yes, devolve back to insults. Honestly, they'd be far more impactful if they weren't based on your own ego and desires. 2 hours ago, HeavyFarms said: Its really simple. Miasma does 600 damage a second with spores. It lasts 6 seconds. 3,600 damage. Roar at 30% increases that to 780. 4,680 damage. That's a damage increase of 1,080. Not including Spores. (Although I should include spores, because 30% more damage on your ability that grows stronger over time. Ahhh. I see. You made no mention of Spores, hence my confusion. Thankyou for the clarification. 2 hours ago, HeavyFarms said: Which is why you don't belong here. Great. Play however you want. But realize that how you play, isn't how others play. People aren't going to enjoy or notice an ability unless it is significant. So while you enjoy how you play, let others enjoy how they play. Cause nobody is enjoying eclipse right now. Nobody would enjoy it even with your suggestion. An extra 15% is going to be a drop of water in a desert Amazing how you go to "let people play how they want to play" from "you don't belong here" when I mention a different perspective. And, keep that same energy on yourself my guy. Just because you run DPS nukes doesn't mean everyone does. AAnd trying to make a weapon buff equal the DPS of Roar on those frames is obscenely ridiculous, because that is quite literally an advantage it has always had, especially on Saryn who loves both buffs more than most frames. But I agree, nobody is enjoying Eclipse right now, because Roar is worse only in very specific, uncommon examples as is. Even at 45%, that becomes less true (though it is still better in the vast maajority, hence why I increased the number I am arguing). 2 hours ago, HeavyFarms said: Because you haven't made a good argument yet. Like I said, Roar is a weapon damage buff, an ability buff, a companion buff and a team aoe buff. Even if you just run weapons and abilities, +15% weapon damage over roar isn't worth losing 30% ability damage. Let alone companion or team damage. +30% weapon damage more than roar for losing 30% ability damage is just cutting even. 30% up for 30% down. Most corrupted mods outside fleeting expertise give you a more enticing trade off. A bigger upside for the downside. +60% weapon damage more than roar (My beloved 90%) is the only value I'd go "It's worth running this instead of roar." I'd rather just go Mirage at this point. Toss any other helminth onto her if I wanted eclipse, cause I'd honestly just prefer a full refund on my resources and warframe I put into helminth. Eh, it's amazing that you say that when you've made grand total of one decent argument in favour of your numbers (and even that is against the clear purpose of the reduction), but it was acknowledged and my argument was altered. I still think that 90% is unlikely, but if they do decide to partially reverse the nerf, and stick it there, I won't be complaining. Heck, I wouldn't be complaining at either 120% or 50% either, because I can see the use-case. It seems like you would be if they only increased it to 80% though, which says more about you than me. The ability has been changed. Accept it. Argue your reasoning why it should be reverted. You're doing that (albeit with far too many insults and ego). And no, +30% Weapon Damage at the cost of the 30% Ability damage is not breaking even, because Eclipse is a unique multiplier. But, by that logic, and increase of 31% would be acceptable (being a technical improvement), but you claim it needs another 30% to be that. Why? I can't be certain, but I would hazard a guess that it is because you treat every single frame in the game as one that wants ability damage enhancements (as that's definitely the impression you are giving). Besides, if you really wanted Eclipse to be better than Roar at weapon damage, it would need to be at least 121%, technically, to be better damage than a squad-wide Roar of equal Strength. And by all means, play who you want to play, how you want to play it. That's what they are there for. Edited March 30 by MarakViri Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarakViri Posted March 30 Share Posted March 30 2 hours ago, thats_rudiculous_07 said: Eclipse doesnt double dip on DOTs . Right It doesn't. Faction Mods, however, do double dip on DoTs. Hence why there is no double dipping on the "No Faction Mod" calculations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaxxian Posted March 30 Share Posted March 30 hace 23 minutos, MarakViri dijo: However, most people that run Roar don't mod the weapon for faction damage due to diminishing returns, so it's probably more accurate to factor at least one player under it aas having no faction mod. Regardless of all of that, it sill does more DoT damage. Functionally, these two numbers achieve the same effect. You are just too caught up in your "I use DPS abilities" argument to consider it from a perspective other than your own playstyle. There is a flaw into your maths. If somebody is NOT using a Faction mod. Is using ANOTHER one. You cannot compare a weapon with 1000 dmg + Faction mod, and a weapon with 1000 dmg + empty mod. The second weapon will have MORE than 1000 dmg. So again, Roar will have better numbers even in a Solo team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarakViri Posted March 30 Share Posted March 30 (edited) 39 minutes ago, Gaxxian said: There is a flaw into your maths. If somebody is NOT using a Faction mod. Is using ANOTHER one. You cannot compare a weapon with 1000 dmg + Faction mod, and a weapon with 1000 dmg + empty mod. The second weapon will have MORE than 1000 dmg. So again, Roar will have better numbers even in a Solo team. Considering the current discussion plays under the assumption that using [Total Eclipse] comes at the cost of a mod slot (and therefore assumes that you arent using [Piercing Roar], otherwise there would be no "mod loss" but instead a "range loss"), that's somewhat misleading, but alright then. With both of them at 30%, they will be equal except in DoT damage when running with no Faction Mod. When running a faction mod, Eclipse will result in more initial damage due to having an additional multiplier (and Roar will still have the edge on DoT due to the higher double dip value). With a 50% base Eclipse, thats only true at above 200% Strength, as far as they compare at a 1-to-1 ration, and equipped with Faction Mods. With a 75% base Eclipse, then it has the DoT advantage at even 500% Strength when paired with Faction mods (under the same solo condition). Trying to balance Roar and Eclipse is harder because [Total Eclipse] exists, allowing you to make it a multi-player buff (even though its both easier and worse than Roar in thia regard). That is the issue regarding balancing them that everyone seems to be disregarding. Or, alternatively, they simply don't care to do that, and want to balance the base helminth abilities in a vacuum that provides every advantage to Roar. And that's without factoring in the Faction Damage Multiplier it gives to abilities. It's somewhat akin to comparing Pillage and Terrify solely based on their ability to armor strip. Edited March 30 by MarakViri Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaxxian Posted March 30 Share Posted March 30 (edited) hace 20 minutos, MarakViri dijo: Considering the current discussion plays under the assumption that using [Total Eclipse] comes at the cost of a mod slot (and therefore assumes that you arent using [Piercing Roar], otherwise there would be no "mod loss" but instead a "range loss"), that's somewhat misleading, but alright then. I'm talking about weapon mod slots here. You are comparing a weapon with a Faction mod vs a weapon without any other mod. As soon as you add Primed Serration into the second weapon, Roar should be better than a 30% Eclipse even in Solo play. Edited March 30 by Gaxxian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarakViri Posted March 30 Share Posted March 30 10 minutes ago, Gaxxian said: I'm talking about weapon mod slots here. You are comparing a weapon with a Faction mod vs a weapon without any other mod. As soon as you add Primed Serration into the second weapon, Roar should be better than a 30% Eclipse even in Solo play. I am aware. Not everyone uses just one build on a weapon though, but yes. Chances are there are no faction mods at all on most builds. I mean, [Primed Serration] doesn't exist, but even then, given the arcanes that also provide base damage, the edge would probably still go to Eclipse due to it being a multiplier. If you have Faction mods, you get one more multiplier than Roar can provide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveCutler Posted March 30 Share Posted March 30 On 2024-03-26 at 3:59 PM, HeavyFarms said: Ember asks "What alternatives?" (I've tried running Ember without it, and her kit is too flawed to work without the energy boost.) Efficiency mods? Ember's Exothermic augment? I play Ember often and she certainly doesn't need Nourish. I like Gloom on her personally, and that adds even more energy drain yet I still have no issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeavyFarms Posted March 30 Share Posted March 30 3 hours ago, MarakViri said: Again, welcome to the conversation? I have said this in almost every single post when you quote it, so I don't see why you keep mentioning it If you had a brain, you could figure it out. Augments exist to make an ability better. If something is worthless, or useless, it shouldn't exist. Eclipse should be in a state where its actually useful to consider "Hey should I extend these buffs to my team?" If total eclipse is something you would consider on normal mirage, its something you should be able to consider when you use it on helminth. 3 hours ago, MarakViri said: So, do I think anyone is going to sacrifice a mod slot for [Total Eclipse] in order to give their team a 45% weapon buff? Maybe. Especially since Roar is far more prevalent, Uh no. Eclipse got nerfed into the ground because its was the more popular ability. Again, read patch notes. Keep up. No. People aren't going to run eclipse for a 15% increase to lose 30% to ability damage. 3 hours ago, MarakViri said: (you technically say "Play however you want. But realize that how you play, isn't how others play", Because functionally killing an ability, effects how other people play. You just aren't smart enough to take the hint. No matter how many people you argue with. (Take a hint.) 3 hours ago, MarakViri said: You know, this little bit here? But, of course, it's not your magic 90% of damage regarding the ability damage output of Saryn, but given that you* are arguing from the perspective of giving Roar every advantage, and Eclipse no advantage, I can't say I'm surprised. When I have to comb through every large paragraph you post, I tend to skim through things. Here's the logical fallacy for you. I don't want to give either ability an advantage. People used Eclipse more often, and that's why it first got nerfed to 150% in helminth. Even with giving Eclipse 90% weapon damage, its still being nerfed harder than Rhino Roar. Roar has the advantage in the argument because it does more than just weapon damage. Its dishonest to go "Weapon damage is the only thing that matters" when there's more to consider. I don't just look at one aspect of an ability. I want both abilities to be good. I'm not going to just focus on Roar's weapon damage and be like "Yeah. that's the only factor to consider". 3 hours ago, MarakViri said: You quote me out of context. From a response of you claiming I do not use my brain. Because you don't. I have to repeat and rephrase the same thing to get the point across. For example: 3 hours ago, MarakViri said: Yes, it's not that much of a trade-off, because most people don't sacrifice their best mod when needing to "sacrifice" a mod slot. Mod slots are so important, there are 3 whole items in the game dedicated to getting the most out of them. Forma/Umbra Forma, Reactor for more capacity as well as an exilus adapter. There's a reason why people want augments in exilus slots, cause it would literally let them have more build power and freedom with their builds. (Especially with frames that are just better with their augments.) 3 hours ago, MarakViri said: No, I am not thinking from an exclusively Solo-Player perspective. Unfortunately, this isn't true. Otherwise, you'd try to make total eclipse usable as an augment choice for team play. It exists. Its possible. Just not if you have any say about it. 3 hours ago, MarakViri said: Roar gives better overall results, yes. When did I say it didn't do this? You keep trying to strawman me Not a strawman. Its your lack of comprehension. Jack of all trades buff vs singular focused ability. I can't explain it any simpler than I've already attempted. Let's see if you had any luck understanding an example I gave to you so you have any clue what I'm talking about. 4 hours ago, MarakViri said: So, yes, the surgeon is better than the general practitioner. But I'm probably not going to go to the surgeon for a headache. I'm not a surgeon could salvage your missing brain cells. The General Practioner is rhino roar. He helps with anything. He's got a wide and broad scopre that he can treat for you. A surgeon is Eclipse. Its a singular focused pursuit that is more practiced, more specialized and hence massively more helpful in that one singular category. This is jack of all trades vs specialized. The incentive is so both abilities have an appeal so you'll regularly find teams with both. (Cause I'd really enjoy having both buffs at the same time for the whole team, and not have one too nerfed to ever be seen again.) Hospitals have both doctors. Eclipse was the more popular option, till DE swung for its kneecaps at its regularly scheduled popularity nerf. 4 hours ago, MarakViri said: Rhino himself doesn't really benefit from Roar. Why? Because it is his Support ability. It is intended for Support of your team more than Rhino himself, unlike Eclipse, which is intended to assist solely Mirage. They are, by their very nature, in-equal. DE tried to equalise them solely based on numerical matching, and failed. The word you are looking for is unequal. And the abilities don't need to be equal for both to be good. They are tools for different jobs. That's why I propose making Eclipse stronger than you'd like. Cause regardless if Eclipse is 200% weapon damage, 150% weapon damage, 120% weapon damage or 90% weapon damage, I'm going to use roar when I want increased ability damage. (Not many other abilities buff ability damage. Likewise, Eclipse is one of the only pure weapon damage buffs in the game. And I don't like nerfing things because its popular. If weapons were people, DE would unalive a man if it got too popular. 4 hours ago, MarakViri said: DE was very clearly trying to weaken the ability, even when compared to Roar. Nope. De was trying to specifically make helminth eclipse weaker. Normal eclipse hasn't been touched. This isn't an issue of eclipse being too strong. Its an issue of it being too popular. That's why they nerfed it with the new lightning system. I am fine with some nerfs. I am not fine nerfing it into 1/3rd of what it used to be. Eclipse has some use now because of its 75% damage reduction and for that alone I've considered putting it on frames like ember. (I really, really, really hate how her fire armor works. Seriously, I would literally put defense eclipse over immolation so I'm not juggling a heat gauge.) 4 hours ago, MarakViri said: Would I pick additional weapon damage at the cost of losing ability damage? And losing value isn't a winning strategy. You don't spend 30$ just to gain 15$ elsewhere. Some warframes don't mind losing ability damage. That's Eclipse's time to shine. That's where you should want it. Like a Banshee with Sonar and Eclipse. Not sure you know anything about Lavos. He's getting a new augment that gives weapons 200% elemental damage. I would love to see how incredible that would be with eclipse. (An Idea I'll try later whenever they buff eclipse.) 4 hours ago, MarakViri said: Ahhh. I see. You made no mention of Spores, hence my confusion. Thankyou for the clarification. In my original post, I said something like "Miasma can do however so and so damage" Meaning I was using its full damage potential at base 100% power strength. 4 hours ago, MarakViri said: Amazing how you go to "let people play how they want to play" from "you don't belong here" Because you aren't considering how others want to play. Only how you want to play. If you let others play how they want to play, any of the few dozen people that have disagreed with you might have actually convinced you to have fun. An ability being too strong can still be fun in a PvE game. We are still fighting enemies with millions of health. An ability being too weak, is actively detrimental to people who want to use that ability. I've already compromised on nerfing Eclipse 3x from what it is normally on Mirage. Not 200%, nor 150% but something resembling usable below that. 4 hours ago, MarakViri said: But yes, devolve back to insults. Honestly, they'd be far more impactful if they weren't based on your own ego and desires. I don't have ego. My own desire is to have an ability strong enough that the majority of the playerbase still want to use it. I've given you math on numbers that shows Eclipse can have damage multipliers higher than what you'd first want. 4 hours ago, MarakViri said: And trying to make a weapon buff equal the DPS of Roar on those frames is obscenely ridiculous, because that is quite literally an advantage it has always And yet, I'm not arguing for eclipse to 4x roar like it normally is. Like I said. Pretend we agree 80% is close enough. That means roar got nerfed to 3/5ths of its original ability. 80% would be 1/4th of eclipse normally. 4 hours ago, MarakViri said: but that would require you to, you know, argue with validity instead of absurdism. I mean, you only ever looked at Eclipse and Roar when it comes to weapon balance. I argued validity by showing you "Hey, Roar adds 1k damage on abilities alone." The reason you moved on past 45% is because I made valid arguments on one ability adding damage that you never considered. This is because I want both options to appeal to people. If people want a mix of weapons and abilities, a roar can give a serious damage boost to stuff like spores, miasma, maybe even octavia's mallet. But on frames like Nova to have player choice/preferrence be an actual choice. Do you go eclipse for the combo with molecular prime and have damage reduction? Or do you go for roar to boost everyone's weapon damage, and increase damage of enemies exploding? Im 80% certain frames like Mesa, Excal, Titania would prefer Eclipse over roar just from their exalted weapons. 4 hours ago, MarakViri said: I still think that 90% is unlikely, I honestly don't expect things to get buffed. DE rarely finds that sweet spot of "Just right" when it comes to balancing things. I'm hoping for anything 60% or higher. 4 hours ago, MarakViri said: The ability has been changed. Accept it. Argue your reasoning why it should be reverted. You're doing that (albeit with far too many insults and ego). Use your brain and consider all the comparisons on an ability. Solo ability vs team buff ability. Other aspects of an ability make trade offs. If you have two similar buffs, but one is better in 90% of cases, people are just going to use the general option. If I had plat for every time you brought up quadratic scaling, I could buy Dante. If I had plat for every time I had to repeat myself for you to get the concept of different tools for different purposes, I could buy the Dante collection. And I don't have to accept anything. If Eclipse is unusable in helminth, I'll just play normal 200% eclipse on mirage. Give something else for DE to nerf from popularity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeavyFarms Posted March 30 Share Posted March 30 1 hour ago, SteveCutler said: Efficiency mods? Ember's Exothermic augment? I play Ember often and she certainly doesn't need Nourish. I like Gloom on her personally, and that adds even more energy drain yet I still have no issues. Against level 200 enemies, exothermic doesn't cut it for me. She really needs that high damage reduction otherwise she gets shredded. I could build her a pure tank, and toss adaptation on her, but then no real point using any of her abilities as they take too long to kill anything. I really like gloom on both Nidus and Garuda. Garuda is one of my favorites now with how well it works with her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mvrsegattoPrime Posted April 3 Share Posted April 3 (edited) A QUESTION ^^ Hello Tenno team! all very well? I would like to know if in the future you think about offering rewards for those who finish the solar system on the steel route for the second time, I would love to receive something for finishing the steel route. Maybe a Sol trophy? it would be really cool, as we don't have anything related to the sun, in the game I'm not talking about it being a playable map, but rather something like a reward for those who finish the solar system on the steel route, in addition to the steel route when you finish 100% on each planet and earn a trophy for that planet. So I think it would be great to receive a trophy from the sun ^^ too strong for the ship. PS: the planet Saturn doesn't end with Uranus, one of the missions has a bug! the quest is about the synthesis of cephalon simaris, the quest does not count! for both normal mode and the steel route, it is bugged! I can't free the planet Uranus into the path of steel because of this mission. Edited April 3 by mvrsegattoPrime Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarmaBullets Posted April 5 Share Posted April 5 I got fooled once again! I was back playing warframe for Dante! spent money, a lot of time and resources to customize it ...only to see it become useless. It was fun for as long as it lasted. I got fooled for the last time! 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azzaruth Posted April 5 Share Posted April 5 Well, on the bright side, I don't have to farm a second Dante for the helmenith. Sure is a shame that no LoS is too much. But it is a good thing no other frame has that problem. Now if you excuse me, I am going to go nuke entire rooms of steel path enemies with skills that have no LoS with higher range, damage, faster, and less buttons than Dante. I don't have time for Stynax's weaker copy, so bye bye! 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanteTheHawk Posted April 7 Share Posted April 7 This is a half measure just get rid of LOS. Dante blocks Dante's skills now. Are we serious? Is a refund too hard to give? Is reversion too hard to do? What is this? 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimm Posted April 9 Share Posted April 9 On 2024-03-14 at 6:57 AM, [DE]Megan said: ARSENAL QOL CHANGE: CUSTOMIZATION FOR “INVISIBLE” WARFRAMES Warframes now have Invisibility customization—no longer will you have to be strictly transparent! Warframes with Invisibility abilities (Loki, Ivara, Ash, Octavia, and Voruna) will now find customization options within their Auxillary Attachment menus! Instead of Invisibility being strictly see-through, players can customize it from being more translucent/semi-transparent to non-transparency with an Energy glow gleaming from your character. Invisibility colorization is affected by the primary Energy color of your Warframe, should you select a choice that is affected by coloring. please do this for all frames. if i get a random octavia i can see what animation i am doing which causes missed timed actions 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thats_rudiculous_07 Posted April 12 Share Posted April 12 Trading bugged . I bought augment mod and it ate up my plat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhagius Posted April 13 Share Posted April 13 Not sure where else to post this, but a huge QoL ( in this case to avoid buyers regret) would be to tie walking animations to the animation sets we can buy. I, for example, bought dante's agile set in hopes of applying the hovering movement to my male frames and i was disappointed to see that it only applies to idle animations. this makes the hovering animations basically useless imho 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
![[DE]Megan](http://content.invisioncic.com/Mwarframe/monthly_2017_06/ezgif.com-crop.thumb.gif.e510920610e8489a54dd5dbe8b9fd4db.gif)
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