Stealth frames are very useful and relaxing to play with. Also enemies need better AI.

[Kronxito]

Yes, i know, they cant nuke rooms (maybe just octavia?) but everything else is a breeze with them, including steelpath bosses.

Just went on a few parvos sisters hunt for an ephemeral i wanted for my bobben.  I did all that with my starter frame: loki. Didnt use loki in years and i forgot how nice it feels to play with him.
 

Also enemies need better AI for more logical reactions against invisible enemies. They are just dumb with their current AI.

[Xzorn]

They reverted a lot of enemy AI changes for stealth because it was impossible to play them.

Nox, Mutalist Osprey and most of Fortuna entirely ignored stealth.

Instead of ever finishing the mechanic since 2013 they just don't make stealth frames anymore.

[Tiltskillet]

I did not expect

35 minutes ago, Kronxito said:

...but everything else is a breeze with them, including steelpath bosses.

Just went on a few parvos sisters hunt for an ephemeral i wanted for my bobben.  I did all that with my starter frame: loki. Didnt use loki in years and i forgot how nice it feels to play with him.

...to end with...

35 minutes ago, Kronxito said:

Also enemies need better AI for more logical reactions against invisible enemies.

lol.

But I agree.  It's wild for instance that I can shoot a Bombard in the leg 20 times, whittling his health away, and his buddies right next to him won't become suspicious until they notice his corpse on the ground.

Though since a lot of people enjoy how chill invisible frames can be in the content we already have, I'd at least like a game mode that throws more--and more interesting--obstacles in their way.

[Xzorn]

3 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

But I agree.  It's wild for instance that I can shoot a Bombard in the leg 20 times, whittling his health away, and his buddies right next to him won't become suspicious until they notice his corpse on the ground.

 

Yea back in like 2014-2016 people were still wondering when proper stealth mechanics in the Space Ninja game was gunna happen.

Everyone just kinda gave up on the idea after a while. We never even got Wall Running back and they said we would =/

Wall Running was so much cooler...

[MaxTunnerX]

1 hour ago, Kronxito said:

Yes, i know, they cant nuke rooms (maybe just octavia?) but everything else is a breeze with them, including steelpath bosses.

Just went on a few parvos sisters hunt for an ephemeral i wanted for my bobben.  I did all that with my starter frame: loki. Didnt use loki in years and i forgot how nice it feels to play with him.
 

Also enemies need better AI for more logical reactions against invisible enemies. They are just dumb with their current AI.

Agreed, so relaxing. And they can nuke rooms, just use kuva tonkor or something, especially with augmented ash. And yeah, hunting liches/sisters with an invisible frame feels so good, that is if I dont forget to go solo mode lol. Its funny too, just hearing "ugh, agh, eh" until they die, completely unaware. But like I said, if you forget to go solo mode, youre in a world of pain because the liches are gonna target other people from your squad and use AOE guns and abilities, especially radiation based, to one hit kill you. Overall good ratio of risk and reward. And I hope the AI stays the way it is, I dont need another of my playstyles ruined by nerfs and tossed into the bin.

Edited March 17 by MaxTunnerX

[_Anise_]

1 hour ago, Xzorn said:

Instead of ever finishing the mechanic since 2013 they just don't make stealth frames anymore.

they made wisp in 2019 and voruna a little over a year+ ago

1 hour ago, Xzorn said:

Nox, Mutalist Osprey and most of Fortuna entirely ignored stealth.

on spawn steelpath acolytes still completely ignore stealth and will beeline your warframe

2 hours ago, Kronxito said:

Also enemies need better AI for more logical reactions against invisible enemies. They are just dumb with their current AI.

if you are using a silencer and are invisible they shouldn't know where you are though they sometimes kinda know and crowd around you but dont do anything about it

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

1 hour ago, Kronxito said:

Also enemies need better AI for more logical reactions

[Xzorn]

18 minutes ago, _Anise_ said:

they made wisp in 2019 and voruna a little over a year+ ago

 

Not really the same. Wisp drops invis from shooting, landing on the ground, ect.
Voruna becomes visible with every pounce if not for shield gating and sheer speed she'd die a lot more.

 

20 minutes ago, _Anise_ said:

on spawn steelpath acolytes still completely ignore stealth and will beeline your warframe

Yea, a lot of enemies they made after Focus came out just ignored stealth.

DE got spicy about players stealth farm capping focus in 10 min each day.
When Focus came out they made a legendary 11 changes within 3 months to hinder stealth farming. Including removing Deception missions.

It was the most attention stealth got in the game's 10 year lifespan.

[_Anise_]

3 minutes ago, Xzorn said:

Not really the same. Wisp drops invis from shooting, landing on the ground, ect.

she is invisible for the duration of her #2 regardless of if she shoots or not

[Tiltskillet]

27 minutes ago, _Anise_ said:

on spawn steelpath acolytes still completely ignore stealth and will beeline your warframe

Sometimes. But they're mostly completely helpless once the invisibility is recast.

[Aerikx]

3 hours ago, Kronxito said:

Also enemies need better AI for more logical reactions against invisible enemies.

Have you played against The Murmur?

They ignore stealth entirely. They just don't attack unless they "See" you.

Stealth gameplay is a can of worms that I am conflicted on if We should touch it.

I personally....LOVE stealth gameplay. Especially since I'm a Loot Goblin and love fully looting rooms.

However, Stealth would need an entire update onto itself to modernize/clean up.

For example...

I feel like enemies need a fear meter or something. So when they see their numbers dwindle or witness a stealth kill they freak out, hide, shoot/jump at shadows.

Bodies are a problem too. As the game takes shortcuts with them.

For true stealth gameplay, we need ways to "lure" and single out enemies, as well as multi-enemy takedowns. 

(All Frames cap at killing 2 enemies at once with a Stealth Takedown, while Loki can do 3, Ivara kills 4, and Ash (The Actual Assassin Frame) kills 5 or 6.)

Now, if we could say destroy the body with an extra command/button press or something I'd be on board for enemies running to alarms if they see someone die by an invisible force/find a body. 

But currently the AI sees bodies even if you dissolve them via Corrosive or evaporate then via Radiation. 

I have multiple videos of enemies walking up and looking down at what is essentially an invisible corpse. 

So the body problem would need to be addressed, and all manner of factors.

However, DE has dramatically moved away from Stealth gameplay in the recent years. So I just don't see them fixing/overhauling it.

The Murmur are a PRIME example of how broken stealth is. 

Hell they even STAY on "Alert" mode when you're invisible, never returning to calm. 

I have literally gone into the Entrati labs, IMMEDIATELY activated Prowl, then the entire time I'm Voca hunting, I have a literal congo line of enemies following me basically rubbing my invisible back as I casually loot the map.

Edited March 17 by Aerikx

[Tiltskillet]

17 minutes ago, Xzorn said:

Yea, a lot of enemies they made after Focus came out just ignored stealth.

Which ones?  Like, they'll just attack like you're visible?

I have to say I don't see this happen with normal enemies that I can think of.  What does happen in certain mission types is enemies will follow the invisible frame around.  But in this case they don't attack. 

[_Anise_]

1 minute ago, Tiltskillet said:

they'll just attack like you're visible?

tbh other than acolytes the only things I see ruin my day in stealth are energy drain and aoe specially on infested

[Tiltskillet]

7 minutes ago, Aerikx said:

I have literally gone into the Entrati labs, IMMEDIATELY activated Prowl, then the entire time I'm Voca hunting, I have a literal congo line of enemies following me basically rubbing my invisible back as I casually loot the map.

I don't understand the criteria exactly, but this has existed for ages, long before Murmur were a thing.  The example that comes immediately to mind is any time I've cracked a "Finish a Survival without killing" riven.   Grineer or whatever will happily trail Ivara from room to room.

  I think it's dependent on mission type and maybe on tileset. 

4 minutes ago, _Anise_ said:

tbh other than acolytes the only things I see ruin my day in stealth are energy drain and aoe specially on infested

Yeah, things that aren't targeted.  And all stuff I find  easy to avoid...solo.  Squad though is a different thing entirely.

[MutoManiac]

Ash with his smoke screen augment that gives me and allies invisibility and 150% cc (red crits everywhere) is the best for relaxing in SP. 

[Zakkhar]

3 hours ago, Kronxito said:

Yes, i know, they cant nuke rooms

You can Ivara invis arrow your own Sentinel via intricate parkour manouvers and have perma invis on any nuking frame.

Sadly still not fixed.

[_Anise_]

9 minutes ago, Zakkhar said:

ou can Ivara invis arrow your own Sentinel via intricate parkour manouvers

have you actually tried this ? its like trying to lick your elbow (try it) even on ivara with the ability to fly your stealth arrow first person it misses the sentinel sometimes when you fly directly into it, I think there is some jank with the hitbox, it would be far easier to just stack like 250% range and spam 6+ meter stealth fields everywhere

meanwhile Nezha can't cast halo on sentinels because its broken ! #sadface

[Xzorn]

53 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

Which ones?  Like, they'll just attack like you're visible?

I have to say I don't see this happen with normal enemies that I can think of.  What does happen in certain mission types is enemies will follow the invisible frame around.  But in this case they don't attack. 

 

I mentioned the ones I recall. They might have "fixed" them.

Basically how it went is they didn't add stealth functions to new enemies so if you're visible for even a moment (re-casting stealth) the enemy will just ignore that you are stealth from that point. Nox did it when they came out. Mutalist Osprey did it after buffed to discourage Excavation farming. I'm pretty sure they still quasi aim for you. I don't know about enemies since then because I've pretty much played Brawlers since I came back. Smash my stats against the game and just brain dead win.

Enemies following you while invis is due to one of the many changes they made with the Focus farming situation. The enemy has two alert states. One is where they draw their weapon and look around the 2nd is when they actively engage you. There was previously only one state where they actively engage you. The other state was added to prevent stealth bonus for a given period of time thus slowing gains. It activated when you killed an enemy in another room at the time or hit a wall with melee.

I had a list at one point of all the things they changed to hinder farming at the time. It really bothered me at the time.

EDIT:

I found this post but it doesn't cover all the changes. I recall they also added more exploding barrels. You can search anything 2016 "steath nerf" is was a pretty big sweep within a few months they just kept slamming. I know I had 11 total direct or indirect changes that hurt stealth play.

I worked with a lot of stealth mechanics around that time. I was the unfortunate player to have a Dev respond to a bug report about Stealth + Gas interactions which then got me around 80 in-game hate messages and 3 youtube videos calling me out.

My delicious period of infamy =D

Edited March 17 by Xzorn

[Lord_Drod]

1 hour ago, Zakkhar said:

You can Ivara invis arrow your own Sentinel via intricate parkour manouvers and have perma invis on any nuking frame.

Sadly still not fixed.

Dang this sounds amazing.  I can't wait to try, thanks for sharing hahah.  Then just get out my archgun, and put it away of course, game over.

 

1 hour ago, _Anise_ said:

have you actually tried this ? its like trying to lick your elbow (try it) even on ivara with the ability to fly your stealth arrow first person it misses the sentinel sometimes when you fly directly into it, I think there is some jank with the hitbox, it would be far easier to just stack like 250% range and spam 6+ meter stealth fields everywhere

meanwhile Nezha can't cast halo on sentinels because its broken ! #sadface

If its hard to do, keep it in! lol but its probably not too bad with high parkour?  I outrun my sentinel all the time.  Sentinel obv needs shards, then I could do something with my blues.

Edited March 18 by Lord_Drod

[Venus-Venera]

why stealth if you can have inaros with arcane grace? enemies cant kill him in most content

[Xzorn]

Ivara Sentinel Cloak is just a bullet jump + Aim Glide spin.

She used to be able to cloak herself without that or using navigator but they fixed the hit box. They also removed her being able to cloak object defense objectives and nerf'd noise arrow pretty hard. It used to hold enemies in a location regardless of other scripts telling them to do something else.

The longest solo Intercept was Ivara using Noise Arrow which got removed for exploiting then nerf'd. You could stand in one spot and just navigate noise arrows to each intercept point and keep enemies from capping.

[Tiltskillet]

1 hour ago, _Anise_ said:

have you actually tried this ? its like trying to lick your elbow

I don't find the "bullet jump and aim backwards" technique difficult--much easier than licking your elbow, let alone my own elbow for that matter.   I do find it annoying, given that it needs to be refreshed constantly, with the annoyance compounded by it feeling like a cheesy exploit to me in the first place.

[Zakkhar]

20 minutes ago, Venus-Venera said:

why stealth if you can have inaros with arcane grace? enemies cant kill him in basic content

There, fixed.

[(PSN)robotwars7]

if we're talking AI fixes, not gonna happen, that's a lot of work for not a whole lot of benefit since the game isn't really stealth focused. they could instead just try to make stealth-encouraging situations more prevalent and harder, but they tried that before with Lua Spy, and nobody has played it for years.

[Tiltskillet]

29 minutes ago, (PSN)robotwars7 said:

if we're talking AI fixes, not gonna happen, that's a lot of work for not a whole lot of benefit since the game isn't really stealth focused.

Probably, but I'm not totally sure.  Running the Archon Spy just now I was reminded that Narmer Grineer have slightly more sensible stealth AI than regular Grineer.  And some obvious AI improvements don't have to be focused on stealth specifically to have a positive impact.

There is the bigger problem of "Why improve AI when most enemies are just completely immaterial except as sources of affinity and orbs?" though.

Edited March 18 by Tiltskillet