35.5.3 changes to Dante

[ReaperR33]

49 minutes ago, OG1AboveA11 said:

Really sad DE has not even said anything yet on the matter. The revert should have happened already. Waste of time, money and mats. Making allot of players feel like this was a bait and switch scam tbh.

They have posted to multiple sources and this forum within the past hour or so. They're talking about it, but as for what they actually do about it is a whole other matter entirely.

Edited April 5 by ReaperR33

[Oraxin]

7 minutes ago, ReaperR33 said:

They have posted to multiple sources and this forum within the past hour or so. They're talking about it, but as for what they actually do about it is a whole other matter entirely.

You have any links by chance?

[Bizzo50]

17 minutes ago, ReaperR33 said:

They have posted to multiple sources and this forum within the past hour or so. They're talking about it, but as for what they actually do about it is a whole other matter entirely.

You REALLY need to provide links

[coucoumef]

Version Française

[OG1AboveA11]

1 minute ago, coucoumef said:

Version Française

They already said this yesterday when they ruined him...

[coucoumef]

il y a 5 minutes, OG1AboveA11 a dit :

They already said this yesterday when they ruined him...

Voila la version de Pablo sur le hotfix d'hier / Here's Pablo's version of yesterday's hotfix

Fait avec mon traducteur donc desolé si pas tres parfait / Made with my translator so sorry if not perfect 

Message from Pablo also about Dante!

-----------------------------------------------------

We completely missed our change regarding Dante's line of sight (LoS) yesterday, and apologize for releasing this fix in this state. We'll be making changes later today to improve it, details to come.

On the positive side of this error, we've decided to review the old LoS checks to use this improved version in a future update.

Old LoS check:

We perform a raycast, essentially draw a line between you and the center of the enemies, and if nothing interrupts the line along the way, they're considered to be in line of sight. Raycasts ignore other enemies.

In addition, we had a bug that prevented it from working on projected enemies, so if they were attracted by a wormhole or anything, they were totally invisible to the Power.

The main problem with this approach (apart from the huge ragdoll bug) is that a single raycast can easily trigger as false if, for example, there's a small railing between you and the enemy. Powers like Radial Blindness, Timeless Emptiness and Spiral of Spires, for example, currently use this same logic.

New LoS check:

Firstly, if the enemy is less than 5m away, we don't perform LoS at all, we just assume they're visible. The system then checks if the enemy is rendered, which works for all enemies on the screen, so if you see even their little finger, they're considered visible. Then, for the enemies behind you, instead of one raycast, it does three, one upwards, another towards the center and finally towards the feet, and if any of these are successful, then we determine that they are visible, meaning false blocks are much less likely. .

Again, this should never have happened, but we'll try to make the best of it, and hopefully the game as a whole will come out better for it.

[Roble_Viejo]

Yeah, keep merging the Posts to dillute the backlash, that will surely fix everything! Right?

Here is what DE officially said in Reddit : 
https://new.reddit.com/r/Warframe/comments/1bwkek7/dante_and_los_issues_and_next_steps/

Cita

We botched the LoS change to Dante yesterday and apologize for shipping it in that state.
We will be making changes later today to improve it, details ahead. One silver lining that came
from this mistake is that we have decided we will revisit older LoS checks to use this improved
version in a future update. Old LoS check: We do a raycast, basically draw a line from you to the
enemies center and if nothing interrupts the line along the way they are considered on sight.
Raycasts ignore other enemies. Additionally we had a bug that prevented it from working on
ragdolled enemies, so if they were pulled by vortex or whatever they were totally invisible to
the ability. The main problem with this approach(aside from the huge ragdoll bug) is that a
single raycast can easily trigger as false if for example there is a small railing between you and
the enemy. Abilities like Radial Blind, Vast Untime and Rotorswell for example use this same logic
right now. New LoS check: First if the enemy is within 5 meters we don't do LoS at all, we just
assume they are visible. Then checks if the enemy is being rendered, which works for any enemies
on screen, so if you see even their pinky toe, they are considered visible. Then for enemies behind
you instead of one raycast it does three, one to the top, another to the center and finally to the feet
and if the're successful, then we determine is visible, this means false blocks are much less likely.

No. Remove LoS altogether. If you wanna balance Tragedy adjust the numbers.

Still not a single word about Overguard shutting down other Player's builds.

DE was making amazing progress in terms of balance, what the heck happened?
 

Edited April 5 by Roble_Viejo

[Threa]

Even if I continue to play the game I will never buy a new Warframe at launch. I should have learned this lesson a long time ago, so maybe I have only myself to blame. DE and Reb don’t respect us, our time, or our money. I won’t ever forget this. 

Edited April 5 by Threa

[(XBOX)toughdragon17]

3 minutes ago, coucoumef said:

Again, this should never have happened, but we'll try to make the best of it, and hopefully the game as a whole will come out better for it.

The nerf should have never happened he was purfect before and you ruined him because you dont listen to your comunity 

When the comunity seas its fine and to leave it alone...... YOU SHOULD LISTEN TO THEM 

No instead you hate your comunity and never listen to them 

[coucoumef]

il y a 5 minutes, Threa a dit :

Even if I continue to play the game I will never buy a new Warframe at launch. I should have learned this lesson a long time ago, so maybe I have only myself to blame. DE and Reb don’t respect us, our time, or our money. I won’t ever forget this. 

I asked support for a refund because the Dante pack is expensive for 1 week.
Not to mention the formas.

I play on playstation so I was told to go and see Sony but not them!

[JohnSpaniard]

So DE keep with their imaginary problems and keep the LoS, great....

I still want my refund of money and formas, cos that is not what I paid for, and of course I won't spent money/plat in a pack/warframe never again.

DE, Dante already has LoS in the 3th ability, necessary for Tragedy. So stop ruining a funny experience with this new frame.

Maybe you DE have hearing issues? Don't you listen to your community?

Remember, you DE are earning money thanks to US. So keep disrespecting us, keep making your crazy and nosense nerfs, you will find you bank account is getting smaller by days.

[Lyconos]

so here is my problem DE, I spend money to support your game, and you put in a warframe that should have been balanced and tested over and over and over to be ready for release. And now after a week its basically gutted. I don't even want to use the warframe anymore. This feels a little like riot games which you both are owned by tencent. You release a warframe/champion stupid strong and then decide to gut it after the initial hype for sales reasons. This is deceptive in everyway. I spend money on the supporter pack (hard earned cash)  and you take my new toy after I just got the chance to play with it. And this is totally a lie when I quote 

"This was an undocumented element of Pageflight, but for the sake of transparency we wanted to inform you of its removal. We believe its removal strikes a better balance and synergy with Status Damage inflicted by Tragedy.

• NOTE: This is not a removal of the Status Vulnerability added to enemies by Pageflight. We are only removing the unintended additional damage taken from Status Effects. "

I mean you literally added this to the game, you should be playing your game, and somehow this crap always slides through and you say it was unintentional. Like they styanax  augment mod. I mean do you really even play this game? I mean in a power fantasy game why nerf the enjoyment of your players/supporters. This is terrible and I mean a really terrible business model. It reminds me when scummy used car salesmen would put sawdust in the vehicle to quiet the noise. It would run great for a couple days then it would completely fail. Why do you choose to not listen to your community consistently. I don't say that lightly, we tell you exactly what we want and you will not listen and ignore us.  And by the way  Reb said "tweaking numbers" which was total lie and you guys know it, I think for know I will hold on to my money. I would urge everyone to hold on to spending money on platinum and prime access. I vote with my wallet and I say NO! This awful and you guys after my almost 10 years of being a fan have really made me upset with this.

[ABlindGuyPlays]

I'm n fairness if they pull it off making los checks better improved a lot if things.

 

I am a cynic with DE but I suggest finding if things are bad or if this change fixes things.

[Korpsite]

The problem with their method of raycast line of sight.. It's bad..

It's the UX equivalent of asking someone to walk through a hallway but putting a glass panel that covers 95% of the path forcing you to become a 4th dimensional being to morph through the 5% opening like a squid.. which is impossible for most if not all individuals.. and yet they insist on it.. It's bad.. 1 or 3 is insufficient for the quality of raycast a game like warframe requires due to the vast number of minor and major obstructions.. 

As for how to fix it.. genuinely the problem is how DE is looking at Dante's Tragedy ability.. They're going after the nuke, when by the very nature of the ability, it should be a nuke.. it does not project an object outwards, with tragedy as a line of sight, Triumph is by the nature of his abilities required to be line of sight.. They're both born from the same source of a 'verse' and effectively the origin of the ability is the same.. but Triumph at present ignores terrain and obstructions entirely.. So why did they only make Tragedy a line of sight ability when it is in essence the polar opposite of Triumph..

They want to nerf the nuke.

This leads to users hating line of sight in general.. 

[THE_DEMPSEY]

3 минуты назад, Lyconos сказал:

so here is my problem DE, I spend money to support your game, and you put in a warframe that should have been balanced and tested over and over and over to be ready for release. And now after a week its basically gutted. I don't even want to use the warframe anymore. This feels a little like riot games which you both are owned by tencent. You release a warframe/champion stupid strong and then decide to gut it after the initial hype for sales reasons. This is deceptive in everyway. I spend money on the supporter pack (hard earned cash)  and you take my new toy after I just got the chance to play with it. And this is totally a lie when I quote 

"This was an undocumented element of Pageflight, but for the sake of transparency we wanted to inform you of its removal. We believe its removal strikes a better balance and synergy with Status Damage inflicted by Tragedy.

• NOTE: This is not a removal of the Status Vulnerability added to enemies by Pageflight. We are only removing the unintended additional damage taken from Status Effects. "

I mean you literally added this to the game, you should be playing your game, and somehow this crap always slides through and you say it was unintentional. Like they styanax  augment mod. I mean do you really even play this game? I mean in a power fantasy game why nerf the enjoyment of your players/supporters. This is terrible and I mean a really terrible business model. It reminds me when scummy used car salesmen would put sawdust in the vehicle to quiet the noise. It would run great for a couple days then it would completely fail. Why do you choose to not listen to your community consistently. I don't say that lightly, we tell you exactly what we want and you will not listen and ignore us.  And by the way  Reb said "tweaking numbers" which was total lie and you guys know it, I think for know I will hold on to my money. I would urge everyone to hold on to spending money on platinum and prime access. I vote with my wallet and I say NO! This awful and you guys after my almost 10 years of being a fan have really made me upset with this.

Yeah, DE should also return Pageflights pre-nerf damage bonus for us, without this Dante struggles in SP. that'll be good for us.

[NightmareT12]

25 minutes ago, Roble_Viejo said:

Here is what DE officially said in Reddit : 

Was also posted here

[Roble_Viejo]

hace 2 minutos, Korpsite dijo:

They're going after the nuke, when by the very nature of the ability, it should be a nuke..

Exactly. This whole LoS mess ruined his theme as a Wizard.

Beyond all of this, releasing a new Warframe, including it in
2 Platinum bundles and one Supporter Pack and then nerfing it,
all in the span of 1 week, is nothing short of nonsensical.

This is bad PR, it reminds me of the old days of Scott's Nerf Hammer,
when nerfs would be done for pettiness and kept out of stubbornness. 

[Digital_Malz]

I don't care about this stupid Hotfix. You have ruined Dante with this LoS. You KNOW it. The community is telling you to revert this crap. But your hubris won't let you do it.

[OG1AboveA11]

So the hotfix made him allot better than the hot trash he was. So far so good. I even checked sp and it was ok. Not the dante he was that we first had but he is definitely better than the hotfix that messed him up. I will update if anything changes or I notice anything out of the ordinary. 

Update: they should still remove the LOS for sure. Makes him no where near as good as he was on release, you know the version people paid for and loved. But he is definitely better than the hotfix that ran him into the ground.

Edited April 5 by OG1AboveA11

[(PSN)Inteth]

7 hours ago, OneOmniverse said:

DE has been good lately from what I hear but this time they screwed the pooch unfathomably bad. And it is beyond scummy how they did this and handled it. Using fear of missing out to get people to spend money on him and on resources to build him. And time to farm him all which is undone in one day. 

I don't think DE deserves this level of... intensity... they received from this change. Their three worst ideas over the past few months, pay to skip, original Eclipse change, and now this hotfix, were all met with valid criticism, and the first two were addressed in what I feel is an acceptable way.

P2S wasn't the boogyman the community immediately framed it as. They were trying to find a solution for new players to get into the new content with their friends. It wasn't the best solution to a problem they admitted to creating for themselves, constantly expanding the story by adding on to existing story new players must clear through to get to the content they're seeing advertised, but I understood their issue and wanted feedback on what would be the best course to take. It would set the precedent for the future. P2S already exists in the game, but the original proposal was a bit much.

Mirage just didn't work in the new lighting system and a change had to be made. The first draft was bad, they listened, and her current iteration is in an acceptable place. The subsume is substantially worse and Exodia Contagion might as well be dead, but I don't dislike the change within that framing.

Hydroid, Inaros, and Grendel were recent reworks and they all feel great now. Hydroid became a top tier, Grendel is a more than viable endgame frame with a lot goofy abilities and it makes him fun to play alongside his powerful kit. Inaros' rework succeeded at their intended goal; make his abilities good without making them powerful, since if he got a Hydroid tier rework, he would be Hydroid with way more bulk. And I agree with that limitation. He's great now. Still bulky, base kit augment was pleasant, Elemental Sandstorm is a slow but viable nuke option... They have, in my opinion, been nailing updates the past year. Not always, but way more often than not.

[LordOfKenpo]

It is deeply concerning to me that Dane was nerfed so badly because he was being used a lot. He has been out a week so of course he was being used a lot. Also DE had succeeded. They created a frame that people loved to play, that should be viewed as a success, yet they saw that as failure since too many people played it. This right here says they need to re-evalute their KPIs (key performance indicators) and figure out why they misread the situation this badly. They took what had the potential to be the most fun frame in the game and nerfed it which once again is going to have people using the same frames they used to use and there will be no real change overall.

Even with this change making him playable again, this will have left a bad taste in many people's mouths preventing them from wanting to play him again. And with all of these changes, the one actual problem still remains which is OG's interactions with other things (ie Chroma).

These were my recommended fixes for keeping Dante fun while resolving some of the issues:

1) For the OG issue, make Triumph only apply OG to Dante and reset the values to the original number. I don't see an issue with light verse still applying to allies as it gives a small buff but the amount given shouldn't hurt the build that need to take damage to play too much

2) For Tragedy, if you feel there really needs to be a change, remove LOS and just reduce the range to 75%. Dante is mage themed and mages tend to do AOEs. It feels bad to effectively remove the dps ability from a dps frame as badly as you did and this while weaker definitely wouldn't feel nearly as bad.

3) For Pageflight I understand the change made here wasn't listed, but it was a cool effect and I don't think anyone was upset about it so I think it should have just been added to the description instead of removing the effect even if at a reduced effect.

[Wild_cord]

Yikes. Mega yikes. 

I think he isn't dead now yippee, but he suffers from the los changes quite a bit. I don't want to even to hop on and test just to be extremely disappointed.

Maybe, he can do stuff now. But it's likely these changes will never ever bring us back to the old Dante. RIP old Dante 🫡 (7-8 days old correct?) 

[vFlitz]

I hopped in the game to try it out, so here goes.

In the simulacrum I quickly discovered that the difference between hitting enemes in the same direction as your camera and enemies that are elsewhere is quite vast. For instance, if you hug the edge of a pillar and face enemies you will hit most if not all of them, if you face the other way you will hit less. If you hug the middle of a pillar so it obstructs the enemies perfectly you will get little to none hits either way, but looking their way still improves your chances. Finally, if you walk upstairs you can nuke enemies even if the balcony's floor obstructs them entirely, but only if you look their way.

In a clear tileset with big rooms like Circulus it performs quite well, almost like having no LoS requirement at all. But in a cluttered place with tight spaces like Hydron it's still pretty much useless.

Although it is an improvement (by the way, if it could have been done in a day, then why other frames with LoS checks have suffered so long without it?) the biggest issue with LoS is inconsistency and that much hasn't changed. You can't clearly predict whether or not your ability will affect specific enemies and the results change depending on how you rotate your camera. On top of that it would seem people with ultra wide screens will now have a mechanical advantage because their camera can 'see' more for the more forgiving LoS check method.

Tragedy costs a total of 100 energy to cast at base and the cast time with the two required Dark Verses is on the long side as well, that simply makes it a poor fit for this kind of inherent inconsistency. The LoS check needs to go.

EDIT:

Nevermind, there's something bad I missed. Someone pointed out in another thread that there's a glaring flaw with the new LoS method and any enemy that your own frame obscures from the camera will fail the check. Is it something that will come up often outside of simulacrum? Likely not, but it will happen sometimes and it only further highlights the issue of inconsistency.

Edited April 5 by vFlitz

[coucoumef]

il y a 18 minutes, LordOfKenpo a dit :

It is deeply concerning to me that Dane was nerfed so badly because he was being used a lot. He has been out a week so of course he was being used a lot. Also DE had succeeded. They created a frame that people loved to play, that should be viewed as a success, yet they saw that as failure since too many people played it. This right here says they need to re-evalute their KPIs (key performance indicators) and figure out why they misread the situation this badly. They took what had the potential to be the most fun frame in the game and nerfed it which once again is going to have people using the same frames they used to use and there will be no real change overall.

Even with this change making him playable again, this will have left a bad taste in many people's mouths preventing them from wanting to play him again. And with all of these changes, the one actual problem still remains which is OG's interactions with other things (ie Chroma).

These were my recommended fixes for keeping Dante fun while resolving some of the issues:

1) For the OG issue, make Triumph only apply OG to Dante and reset the values to the original number. I don't see an issue with light verse still applying to allies as it gives a small buff but the amount given shouldn't hurt the build that need to take damage to play too much

2) For Tragedy, if you feel there really needs to be a change, remove LOS and just reduce the range to 75%. Dante is mage themed and mages tend to do AOEs. It feels bad to effectively remove the dps ability from a dps frame as badly as you did and this while weaker definitely wouldn't feel nearly as bad.

3) For Pageflight I understand the change made here wasn't listed, but it was a cool effect and I don't think anyone was upset about it so I think it should have just been added to the description instead of removing the effect even if at a reduced effect.

The real innovation is not Dante who is freed but "DE" from financial worries, they attracted lots of people, collected lots of money so that in the end we have a trash frame and they have the luxury of a good account completed!

[sh0shin]

These changes are pretty good, except still not sure why Overguard got *buffed* when the consensus is it's both annoying and OP. It is a bit strange to loosen the requirements on LoS so much rather than just revert the change and maybe take the range in 20%, IMO. Thanks for all your hard work.