LoS Fixes for Dante’s Tragedy coming in next Hotfix

[WildEyeJ0k3r]

I’ve never posted an opinion in a forum ever. I started playing Warframe not too long ago. Immediately became immersed in the world you’ve all created. Complete Gauss Prime main and went all in. Saw Dante Unbound and was like, “Oh yea, I’m getting him day 1!”  That’s exactly what I did. A week later he is gutted although the community was told minor tweaks. I can understand the over guard nerf in most part.  The LOS. I can not agree with at all especially if YOU KNEW it was bugged beforehand and yet call this a minor tweak? It’s purposefully giving him a bug. I put funds into this and was so excited as I’m sure others did too. Now it feels like an empty investment. Again, I can in most part agree with the overguard nerf. Although I have to spam twice as much like crazy to get back half as much as I use to. Pageflight not ramping up status damage was an unintended bug that was not told to us until removed so we wouldn’t be mad when we see that damage scale back down. I can understand that. PURPOSEFULLY giving him Los although you know it’s buggy and just letting us sit on that until another hotfix is implemented. Saying it’s not cool is just an understatement. To do this within a week of release. Hopefully if not my opinion, but the many others I see in your forums that agree hopefully get this in motion to revert Los. I still enjoy the game, still love all the work you all put into this. Even the community rocks here. Just makes me feel Gauss was a more enjoyable warframe release. 

[Shemarria]

6 hours ago, [DE]Megan said:

We've been poring over your comments regarding the balance changes to Dante. We want to reiterate that we are paying close attention to player feedback and taking these conversations very seriously. As with everything in Warframe, iteration is always possible, and we’ll be keeping a close eye on how Dante feels now that these alterations are in your hands. 

One of the clearest pain points from the community is the inconsistencies in Tragedy’s Line of Sight (LOS) checks, and we can confirm that the following changes are already on deck for an upcoming hotfix: 

• Tragedy not hitting ragdolled enemies that are within LOS

• Increasing the number of LOS checks per enemy to improve the reliability of marginal hits 

We are still actively reading your feedback and encourage you to continue to share your constructive thoughts after spending time playing Dante with the changes. Thank you to everyone who has shared their thoughts with us thus far!

--
To add to the above, it's very obvious to us, as it is with players, that Tragedy's LOS is clearly not in an ideal state due to the bugs we listed above. It's not working as intended and we want to remedy that as soon as we can. Once the fixes go live, we'll be watching for your thoughts as you experience it the way was designed to function.  

 

It was DESIGNED to be radial.  Short range, but radial.
Also the Paragrims and the Overguard caps?
Seriously NOTHING needed to be changed.  Aside from the few meta-max players who insist on making nuke frames out of everything, Dante never felt overpowering when I was running with other Tenno who had him and I didn't.  NEVER ONCE did I resent the buffs OR the (I'll says it) CROWD CONTROL he was able to do.
Best course of action?  MAYBE reduce the damage on Tradgedy by 25% (allowing its radial attack as originally shipped) and revert everything back, Maybe reduced 10% to keepthe ones bleating "OP! OP! OP!" quiet.

These "tweeks" (call 'em what they were; out right NERFS) felt mean spirited and punitive.  People paid REAL money to get him day one.  Keep THAT in mind going forward DE.
I hope you'll do the right thing and revert him back with SMALL... and we do mean small... changes.

Good luck.

I hope for the best, but I plan for the worst.

[Nero.DMC]

25 minutes ago, CosoMalvadoNG said:

Nah you are just bad, I use him today it's like the the same but less broken.

Sure buddy, he is not bugged at all like it has been reported several times aknowledge by DE and every single person testing it... its must be a skill issue that FoS is bugged as hell... what a dumb take you got there congrats!

[DeadlyDullahan]

I'm sorry but unless DE plans to completely revamp how the LOS system works, the change needs to be reverted. This is the eclipse + Lighting issues all over again. Own up to it and find a different way to tune Dante.

 

Edited April 5 by DeadlyDullahan
spelling error

[ZeroKay05]

Dante doesn't need LoS, It was completely balanced on release, And please don't tell He was nerfed due to dominance, One week is not enough time to see if a particular frame is dominating. I have no problems with overguard nerfs, but the LoS was completely unnecessary. You just made a frame that was fun to play into a frame that going to be MR fodder and Helminthed.

Edited April 5 by ZeroKay05

[Chewarette]

LoS has already ruined Garuda - that I benched since her 4 doesn't go through walls anymore and even fails to hit enemies within LoS, is that fixed yet ? - now it'll ruin Dante as well, which was a very well-defined Warframe until then. Some nerfs to allies' overguard might have been needed (even if Overguard is overall garbage at higher levels so it wouldn't change anything), but not all those nerfs

[TheTundraTerror]

I honestly can't believe people are calling for Ally Overguard amounts to be nerfed because ONE frame and TWO mods are negatively impacted. How about instead of making the ability worse or needing more bandaids than a paper mill, we update Chroma to the current decade and let Rage/HA work off Overguard because (as is) Overguard has nothing going for it beyond it's super short gating. It doesn't get DR which means it gets shredded like harder than Rich Piana beyond double digit enemy levels.

Edited April 5 by TheTundraTerror

[Librus_107]

I really tend to take most things as they are, even if they're uncomfortable, but I'm with the crowd here: LOS really isn't a good fix. If Dark Verse is still allowed to be an AOE, it simply doesn't have a good "feel" to have to suddenly aim within a range that isn't in any way visualized to me with it's stronger version. Maybe if it was some roaring shockwave attack, or if I could see my LOS range in some way once Tragedy was primed to fire? 

I'm sure there's a few ways to handle it that don't feel nearly as... finicky, and disruptive. Heck, I'd take detailed number adjustments over having to - again - eyeball a casting range. It basically feels as if the ability serves no real use now, unless within actual arm's reach. 

I understand it's an iterative process, and there's a lot of details and designs going on behind the scenes we can't even begin to fathom - but please. There are undoubtedly better, more user-friendly solutions available. (And take it from me, someone who has terrible aim: I was on Dante like a silverfish to musty, old book pages once I was finally finished putting him together!)

[Awaidaqor]

Just do note that the reason players were having so much fun with Dante was because there's no LoS check on him. It's extremely frustrating. Please look at Brozime's short, showing that a desk can block his Tragedy. 

Edit : I didn't see you made a video showing improvements on LoS. I appreciate a lot your commitment but, firstly this should be applied to LoS in general, and secondly I still don't trust LoS in a "having fun" point of view. Actually I don't like the general concept of LoS and I'm not the only one, simply because Warframe is a game full of collisions that will inevitably cause inconsistencies with LoS checks. Not only that, but just having to reposition yourself because there are multiple corridors for example is strictly annoying.

Dante not having LoS was truly the thing that made him so fun to use. I wouldn't mind if he didn't share his overguard to allies at all.

Edited April 5 by Awaidaqor

[Cloudwalker71]

Just revert it. Think of the people who paid cash not plat for the Dante pack and we’re having so much fun and then you all ripped it away from them. Think of the people who happily invested plat and forma for a five day thrill ride and had their dreams cast down.

Revert this terrible change. Admit the mistake, revert it. Do some real testing before you change him.

[AR_Has]

I will never spend money or time on new releases again untill MONTHS go by , see ya in the next update.

[Regufyz]

I feel like removing LOS from the ability and just reducing range might be enough. The rest of the nerfs are understandable

[Tenno-Scuum]

You bring out a new Warframe and everyone is thrilled, a few days later you destroy the entire Warframe by halving all the numbers and it is now scrap, Dante is a final content frame in terms of lore, thank you, I have my time and money wasted

[Caidezes]

Honestly, at this point just revert the nerfs, keep the few buffs you gave him, and be done with it. Dante feels bad to play right now, and it's not just because the line of sight on Tragedy is broken. (Will the fixed version even hit enemies behind him?) People were enjoying a cool new frame that JUST released and didn't need three buff patches to be good like some previous ones. He wasn't Saryn or Mesa tier, let alone on Octavia's level. Are we not allowed to get great frames right off the bat anymore?

All you needed to do is let overguard work with damage reliant abilities/mods.

[(PSN)OmegaSlayer]

Don't change things on guts feelings.

That's not hard.

Also...the guys that always shout "NERF" every second are usually frustrated whiners that should be put in a blaclist and never be considered.

[Master2872]

Imagine saying you're nerfing a frame for "dominance" a WEEK out after release, and it takes 3 and a half days to MAKE the frame if you farmed it. You've yet again proved everything I've ever said. You simply nerf on usage statistics, and never look into why people are using these items in high numbers. There is zero way you gained enough data within a week to determine how to fix said issues, when people have told you said issues, and how said issues has been a design problem since the inception of overguard being applied to frames...

 

You spent more effort into nerfing a frame that didn't need it, when you could have used that same effort to fix other frames that are  borderline unusable, like Loki, or fix any issues/bug in general that have plagued the game for close to a decade. You keep saying you listen to community feedback, but it's clear that you ignore it. This goes back far, and even to Heirloom skins...

 

For the people who paid money for Dante, and got others to do it too out of excitement, this is borderline a scam and bait and switch with these changes.

 

Simple changes can be done with Dante. Revert all nerfs. Allow Overguard loss to be applied to Hunter Adrenaline, and Rage, and other mods and abilities like it, and if Dante's 2 can be applied to other players, companions, AND FOLLOWERS, so should Citrine's 2. Otherwise, these changes are completely at odds with other frames who does what Dante does/did but significantly better, and shows there is a CLEAR design issue with overguard since it's inception to being applied to frames. How can you say if damage wasn't the issue, but you immediately nerf the damage? Not to mention completely ignore the fact that dark verse is applying slash to slash immune enemies which also goes/spits in the face of Citrine's 1...

 

Here's what will really happen though for the community who is reading this. Just like Heirloom skins and 10th anniversary stuff, nothing will be done. They'll say they've listened, and learned from this and apply it to the next situation (despite saying heirloom may never make a return...) and say they don't nerf on usage statistics alone, and claim tiny nerfs, but in reality changes that warrant players never touching the frame again, while also calling their player base losers at the summer trailer/wrap it up awards. These changes in the next hot fix will drop, and LoS will NOT be removed from Dante's 4. I'd love to be proven wrong.

[Quietsun]

all you had to do was reduce the number of extra shields, reduce the range of los, and possibly reduce the damage from los.
You didn't need to touch anything else from Dante.
But no, you decided to make him another passing warframe. Dante is a good aoe warframe, but there are better ones. the same equinox, saryn or octavia.
and now Dante is some kind of garbage, which only overguard gives you useful things.
Do you understand what you have done? you sold a set with this warframe and immediately nerf it.
how will people feel about subsequent such sets now?

[Sannidor]

It feels like there are at least four branches in DE team and they live on separate hills, communicating through smoke signals.

Dante designers knew he's OP for team support. Anyone playing him for five minutes would see it.

Dante promotion hyped him as all-rounded frame, rewarding active gameplay.

Dante feedback gatherers cherry picked complains or projected their own ideas for nerfs.

Dante balance based on misunderstood feedback botched frame's damage capability.

Dante promised fixes are not addressing what's wrong about the akward nerfs.

Community keeps strawmaning how those who asked for Dante balancing are to blame for bad nerfs and lackluster fixes to nerfs.

Spoiler

🤷‍♂️

 

[(PSN)MYKK678]

Constructive Feedback Incoming:

Enjoyed Dante before this change was made. Have been trying him out on a few maps now after the change. Although the purpose of these changes was to slightly decrease the chance of this frame hitting "the big 3" problems, the result is not matching the intention.

To clarify, Dante was too strong, there shouldn't even be a debate about that. But this isn't how to fix him. On 4 different maps, because an enemy was very slightly behind an object, apparently that didn't count for LoS and they aren't getting hit. Was in Mirror Defense and any enemy lucky enough to be behind one of the massive pillars was safe. I know there's supposed to be a fix for that incoming, but that in and of itself is a sign that this might not have been the direction to go.

If you want to "balance" Dante then there's 3 clear options to take, could be one of them, a mix of two, or all three.

- His Range. He doesn't need to be able to stretch his powers out 80m wide. That can be cut down.

- His power cost. Right now the cost of each power is a little too generous for what we got before the recent change. Increasing the power cost could easily negate the possibility of players AFKing maps.

- Remove his shared Overguard. Can't say I agree with his Overguard being cut down as much as it was. 1 hit from anything in Steel Path is going to delete the new numbers. On top of that though, considering all the fuss being made recently about players being unable to utilise certain mods because they're being forced to have Overguard by other frames, hit 2 birds with 1 stone. Reduce it so Dante only applies Overguard to himself.

I'm not just going to spam "revert dante" because that would be ignoring/pretending Dante had no issues before. Instead I'd suggest to revert to original Dante internally, and apply 1, 2 or all of the changes suggested above. Because right now his Overguard numbers are nearly pointless (even boosted by strength mods), sharing the Overguard is just adding more fuel to a currently building fire, Tragedy is going to be for open-world areas only as long as a stray leaf doesn't get in the way too, and all he'll be good for is to spam Dark Verse and a bit of Noctua play.

Instead of doubling-down on this mistake, please consider that there are better ways to address his issues.

[chanchantheman]

Here to add yet another voice for reverting the Dante Tragedy change (i.e. revert back to not needing line of sight). People had issues with how much overguard he provided and the fact that he provided it to the whole squad.  Other frames can nuke without line of sight. If a nerf to Dante is necessary, let it just be with his overguard, maybe only allow it to apply to himself, or an even smaller amount to himself and teammates. Keep his Tragedy ability as it was pre-nerf (on release). Let him be an attacker with a little bit of defense like people want. There isn't a reason to ignore what a large majority are saying.

[Drake_MPrime]

So you guys just destroyed one of the coolest frame ever?! Ok it's fine DE, you can do whatever you want, but in this case i want my money back!

I've bought a Lamborghini and all i have now is a KIA!

[Unrealius]

I ask for full refund. ANd compensa.
Wish  everyone who  took him for plat do same.
Im ok with balance, but that  now is another warframe.
He is caster without option to cast.
Lavor can one shot rooms, Octavia ca, Voruna can,  even Inaron can, everyone can,  but Dante is broke...
Im lazy to count how many other frames can do same or better that dante.
I dont care about shield when on other frames I have immortality...

 

just want to say Date itself not OP.
Hes kit  was strong.  But not OP.
Hes shield were strong, I dont care about  them.    I have them around 40k+  If they will be 10k  fine.
Is they will be only for Dante - fine.

Dont forger that Warframe itself not only the power.
There is are build.
Mods, pets,  promary and secondary  etc etc etc.
ofc Archon shards.
For Dante almost necessary    shards on cast speed.
------------------------
There is much more stronger frames than Dante.

DE just nerf him,   without real back check.  
Some players  still building him.
You cant make such drastic changes without   good plan.
"Oh he is op - nerf  him"
"sure - now he can run, jump and cast book that players will replace on others abilities"
 

Edited April 5 by Unrealius

[OmegaMaximusPrime]

7 hours ago, KaosKuantico said:

Revert the changes, create a dragon key to prevent overguard from those who don't want it. The complains were from team mates, not Dante's users. 

I like this Dragon Key idea.  Revert all the nerfs to Dante....this was an over reactionary and premature action when Dante hadn't even been out a week! This wasn't enough time to collect data or even see how the community are eventually going to use Dante after the newness wore off.  Of course everyone was playing him and enjoying him and having fun....isn't that the goal when a new warframe is released? This kind of action will chase away the players that actually just came back to the game, as well as 11 year vets that have had enough.

Just admit you were wrong and revert the negative changes to Dante and allow Dante as released to eventually find his place amongst even more powerful warframes than him! 

[MATHIELPRIME]

Revert the changed you messed up big time just make it so teammates get less overguard or none at all don't touch anything else 

[Eddzie]

As someone who managed to play Dante for a few days. I think the LOS nerf is the biggest hinder in your changes. I played him on both regular and SP to get a feel for him, and in neither he was way too OP.
He was strong, I can agree.
His OG was a bit much, especially since he gave it to his teammates too and on a massive range to further add to the fire.
I think reverting the changes, is a good start you went a bit too hard on nerfs that will ultimately kill his playstyle and make him just a one ability frame.
Reducing range for OG (a fixed number would be great) so teammates can avoid OG if they want would be a nice nerf, that helps some users and is a small nerf in it's own way.