[Dante Unbound] Our plans for next week (35.5.6)

[StarkillerHDX]

Putting aside the LoS issues for a moment, I just want to say thank you for adding back Pageflight's Status Damage. I really valued that aspect of the ability (even if it was considered a bug, it was a bug that allowed the ability to stand out), so to see it come back makes me really happy! Also, the Rage/Hunter Adrenaline and Vex Armor changes are greatly appreciated! That should quell the ire of some health tanking Frames, except maybe some really niche builds. Issues should be rightfully criticized, but fixes should be faced with gratitude as well. I know fixing things is a thankless job, considering that toxicity is much more easier to garner than thanks, considering the current controversy. Things might not be perfect, but it's going in the right direction.

Thank you!

[InuKujo]

Nice good direction! Like other said can you also please remove line of sight on Tragedy of Dante? And also revert the nerf of Nezha augment mod?

[MagnuSRagnaroK]

Ive come to main Dante. Farmed 1 for helminth fu3l on day 1 & bought his package for the xtras. Why are we being punished for enjoying the new content provided & SOLD by DE? IT JUST FEELS BAD. PLEASE REVERT LOS DANTE HANDICAP,Just reduce range,you know,a LOGICAL SOLUTION to a non-existant problem...Why do all games promote cool\fun content, for months, only to ruin our experience after they've collected your ca$h & you just started having fun?! Truly Disappointed;Thanks DE. I wont be purchasing any new frames in the future unless DE makes this right for us players that fund their salaries, this is just shady business practice that i refuse to support.

[Zer0lf]

Appreciate u guys for always listening to community

I rarely post on the forums, but i would like to ask if u could look into Nezhas augment as well, really enjoyed the new build and i feel like the nerf is a too much

[phelan1988]

I truly think that LoS checks should only take into account actual tileset walls, because so far every frame with an LoS check on an ability has felt terrible to use because of the level geometry. The tilesets DE's been making of late are beautiful and I really like how the randomizer makes every mission a little bit varied but as tiles have gotten more complex, more decorated, stuff like Ember's current 4 (and now Dante's) feels worse and worse to use. 

The fix as described in the hotfix today makes sense in theory, but in practice Dante's 4 still feels terrible to use when moving around a mission - I'm assuming some of that is not intended because people have been posting what seem like bugs, but in a game with such awesome mobility having to line yourself up just to make sure some random bit of level geometry isn't blocking you from enemies because your bullet jump trajectory changes your attack angle as the casting animation goes off... it feels horrible. The verticality of areas like the Sanctum makes things even worse, because if half the enemies spawn on the second floor you end up wasting your AoE attacks half the time. The fact that adding a LoS check can take a great feeling ability straight to something I never want to use without ever touching its damage numbers is an indictment of the system on its own.

I'll echo here something I've seen others post, if the issue is Dante map nuking in level 30 missions, please just take away the base damage from the ability, force us to apply status procs with another ability or weapon for it to trigger, it already does effectively zero damage without existing slash procs on steel path.

Anyway, on another subject, Nezha's augment wasn't nearly so strong that it needed a freaking 50% nerf, it's completely unable to compete with other AoE frames now. Please reconsider that as well.

Edited April 5 by phelan1988

[TommyBisque]

It is appreciated that this is getting more consideration. My current only request is to take a look into the range decrease given to Nezha's augment. I recommend changing it to a 25-30% decrease in range as to not reduce the affected area by far more than half. Also, please do not instead make divine spears require LoS as a response. Thank you for the balancing work being put in by the dev team and remember to stay kind.

[Mahlyath]

4 hours ago, [DE]Momaw said:

It's been an exciting week for Warframe. Following the very positive launch of Dante Unbound, we threw open the doors to the Deep Archimedea and Elite Deep Archimedea. People have been laughing all the way to the bank with their new-found riches of Archon Shards.

But there's also been some missteps which we must take responsibility and apologize for, with regard to Dante himself and the rapid changes that caught people unawares. We've already made a big correction by fixing the new Line of Sight calculations which were, to put it bluntly, not as good as they should have been on release.

We never stop reviewing feedback, and in the spirit of making constant improvements to our game, here's a preview of our next steps in response to what players have said:

• Adding back and formalizing the Status Damage Vulnerability to Dante's "Pageflight". In other words not just making enemies take more Status procs, but also increasing the damage of their Status. We removed this in Hotfix 35.5.3 because it was unexpected, and we regarded it as a bug. But many of you have expressed a desire to have this back, so we are working to restore it.
• Improving the co-op play between Warframes that give their teammates Overguard and Warframes that rely on taking damage:
  • Vex Armor can charge its damage buff by getting ranged kills and its armor buff by getting melee or ability kills. This is in addition to the existing functionality. This allows Vex Armor to work while having Overguard and also in general provides a nice interaction where you can get the buff faster from playing well and not just from tanking hits.
  • Rage/Hunter Adrenaline will now grant Energy when you don't have Shields, so Inaros and Nidus (or any frame when their Shields are temporarily down), can regenerate Energy even through Overguard.

You can expect to see a Hotfix next week that adds these items. Other forms of self damage like Combat Discipline will also be reviewed in the future. We have definitely heard you on this point, we're just not sure that it will be done as quickly as the other interactions already mentioned.

 

 

Hi, you should listen to your player base. Because the LAST thing you wanna do is piss them off. You should be apologizing about this recent hotfix, not on what it was prior. Dante was AWESOME upon release, and in fact, I would dare say he was worth farming hours for to obtain. I hadn't had that much fun with a warframe since Sevagoth's release. And changing his Tragedy to only kill enemies in Line of Sight was a tragedy in and of itself, and removed any reason to build him apart from the overguard and mastery rank.

And don't give us that BS of utilizing Dante's other abilities because we still have Saryn, the warframe only good for clearing rooms, and you still refuse to nerf that OP frame because you know very few would play her if you did. What even is the point of nerfing frames to begin with? It's not like any of us are playing PVP, it isn't really a thing in this game and even so, most of the newer frames that have been released aren't even available in that conclave game mode.

Dante is a Warframe players obtain so late in the game if they're not outright buying him, having to go through so much work, it only seems right to keep him as overpowered as he was before you nerfed him. I'll say if you really wanted to nerf him, a simple ten second cooldown for his 4th would have been just fine. Changing it to a LoS doesn't fix him, it destroyed any chances of people really playing him. You want people to play your cool new warframes that you work months if not years on, but removing the parts that really make them enjoyable just gives the opposite effect. 

You basically gave us a high value car, but removed the engine so that we can't go anywhere with it but hey, LOOKS COOL RIGHT!?

Just revert the nerf, that's all we want. #justicefordante

Edited April 5 by Mahlyath
pun opportunity

[BouncySushi]

These changes are good and solves issues players had with overguard. However, I still believe the LoS check on Tragedy is unnecessary due to its status detonation nature. It requires, barring low tier Lith missions, the use of Dark Verse's status effects to kill enemies. Thus confining Dante's effective nuke to theoretically 50 degrees. The workaround for the 50 degree cone is to spread the effect to one group then move on to another to prepare more enemies for the big finish. In doing this, the earlier marked enemies could potentially no longer be in sight but are still affected by the Dark Verse status. Tragedy not using line of sight enables the detonation of these out of sight but still slashed enemies. It promotes the playstyle of prep enemies for one big finishing hit which personally is extremely satisfying. 

[AR_Has]

we want a refund on the packs we paid for , this is blatant lie and bait and switch practices that I didn't expect from you DE , last time I spend money in this game that practice this behavior, 1000s of replies asking you to revert the LoS on tragedy and you have the brass neck to say you care about our feedback, L DE

[Mauriou]

signed up just to say this: nezha players dont deserve to be shown love and then be abused instantly like this, just nerf the range scaling on the ability instead of completely destroying it,also remove los.

[Mahlyath]

28 minutes ago, MagnuSRagnaroK said:

Ive come to main Dante. Farmed 1 for helminth fu3l on day 1 & bought his package for the xtras. Why are we being punished for enjoying the new content provided & SOLD by DE? IT JUST FEELS BAD. PLEASE REVERT LOS DANTE HANDICAP,Just reduce range,you know,a LOGICAL SOLUTION to a non-existant problem...Why do all games promote cool\fun content, for months, only to ruin our experience after they've collected your ca$h & you just started having fun?! Truly Disappointed;Thanks DE. I wont be purchasing any new frames in the future unless DE makes this right for us players that fund their salaries, this is just shady business practice that i refuse to support.

i wouldn't say to nerf range, just add a cooldown, give other players a chance to fight.

[(PSN)Epsilon_3579]

This is amazing, and definitely a great step but are you guys like not even going to talk about Nezha? Like I don't understand, Nezha mains didn't ask for this augment you chose to add it on your own. Then some people (YouTubers) who have never used Nezha after the rework (thank you Pablo) decided to pick him up and declare him overpowered and you in a really hasty move decided to nerf the ability (via augment) and not the augment itself? And now we have to face the consequences, how is that fair? Common DE you are better than that you just proved that. Not asking to revert the nerf just reduce the range penalty (30-35%) or put a cap at enemy affected, or remove the damage multiplier or give it damage fall off. If you just take a moment to look at the forums you will see a bazillion solutions, I haven't found even a single person who says revert the nerf, every last one of us is willing to compromise. Can't you? just a little.

[quxier]

4 hours ago, [DE]Momaw said:

we threw open the doors to the Deep Archimedea and Elite Deep Archimedea. People have been laughing all the way to the bank with their new-found riches of Archon Shards.

It's night and I'm really laughing.

[Alias3588]

😞Please reconsider "Nezha Augment" nerf. 50 % base range(75% effective area) is too much reduction. either (1) change the range reduction to 25 to 30% or (2) put max range cap of 35 to 40m without changing base range.

[Aerikx]

All of you furiously yelling for them to remove LoS...

Literally saying: Just let us nuke the map endlessly

This is a Monkey's Paw wish.

I'm warning you. If they listen they will nerf Dante's range and other abilities into the ground to balance it. Might even slap some crazy energy costs on it out of spite.

Then you'll be begging for the LoS restriction to come back....

*Reflects on the Bladestorm, Cataclysm, Sound Quake, and numerous Chroma Nerfs* 

I see the Monkey's Paw Finger twitching....

[ShogunGunshow]

1 hour ago, Sir-Lorkhan said:

🤣🤣🤣🤣

MORON!

All thoses frames then procede to destroy rooms non stop for no cost! A Saryn destroys literally 3 rooms ahead!

Your insane!

I mean. Yes? Saryn should also be nerfed so that she's not killing stuff 3 rooms away.

Saryn's ability to do that is not really okay, and the only reason she gets away with it is because her play rate isn't problematic, even though she is absolutely, 100% an offender in this regard. They should find a way to sidegrade her playstyle so that she still works as she does now in a room - building her stacks and damage much faster but putting pretty hard checks on how far it can spread, etc.

Thermal Sunder should also have an LOS check.

[Chroia]

Disclaimer: Hitting the right balance of positive and negative to not be kissass but not be too aggressive, when you don't know your specific audience, and you're one of a deluge of voices is probably impossible.
Realizing that I've probably failed, well... I've tried.

 

I try to make a point of giving credit where credit is due.
I don't do it enough.

So.
I haven't said this before but, despite the glaring exception of the most recent patch, the majority of... idk, Reb/Pab-era? updates have been, broadly, good to very good.
There have been many QoL (and some plain UI) improvements and progression/quest debloating (yes, I'm aware that a lot of it is probably to get new Mobile players to stick), most of the (not sure how to term them. Organic? Natively generated? ... unprompted by outcry?) frame reworks, and many of the ability reworks (e.g. reduced effectiveness notwithstanding, its new  versatile reliability had me actually Helminth Eclipse on a couple of frames, over Roar, for the first time ever), several of the new augments have mostly been varying shades of excellent.
(I don't want to spout off, and I'm not sure going back over the update notes for details is warranted, it certainly won't make for a short post.)

Furthermore, there have been multiple instances of unprompted communication over the last couple of years, 'you' sharing perspectives, your intentions and the discussions you've been having for and about changed or added things - which I have wholeheartedly appreciated.

So, as a broad statement, with the specific exception of U35.5 - Yay team!

 

On a more specific note, regarding 35.5 and on...
As I said in the now-locked (and thus un-quote-able) feedback thread:

"How Line of Sight works has been a problem literally as long as it has existed.

Don't get me wrong - I like X-ray nukes, but I understand severely restricting it.
And if 'LoS' just meant 'can't go through terrain' that'd be fine.

I'm not saying 'revert the nerf', I saying 'however you do it, make LoS actually work'."

So seeing

5 hours ago, [DE]Momaw said:

We've already made a big correction by fixing the new Line of Sight calculations which were, to put it bluntly, not as good as they should have been on release.

Megan detailing it and Pablo saying that they will be ported to other frames?
Final verdict will wait until I see how this actually works in practice, but as it stands I'm reasonably content with the outcome.
(Not to say that I'm not still sore over my Formas, but them's the cost of playing anything online, sadly.)

Similarly, the change to Rage/Hunter's Adrenaline and Chroma's Vex Armor that I've seen mentioned on Reddit? Very good.

So, while - on seeing this outcome, a possible comprehensive fix to what is literally a 6-months-short-of-a-decade long problem - my kneejerk reaction is to wish you more fires, that would not be fair - hence the preamble.

No one's perfect. Missteps happen.
Yes, I realize that at least some of the communication and changes over the last 40ish hours are putting out fires.
But ya'll've been doing a lot of good work.
Keep it up.

---

(To be clear - I'm absolutely still upset about the bait-and-switch of Tragedy no longer being X-Ray, but as I said in the feedback thread, I should've known better.
I'm still peeved about the Forma investment, but improvements to Dante might make him worth using (imo), which would ameliorate that. At least I can yank the Archon Shards offa him, in the meanwhile.
Nezha's Divine Retribution is still DoA now, as far as I'm concerned.
As far as I can tell, the current impementation of Overguard-granted CC immunity is still neutering CC specifically on the only enemies you actually care about CCing, bringing us back to 'The Best CC is 'Dead''.
And I could list a litany of frames (my girl Nyx, for one), mechanics (e.g. bandaid augments existing. Bandaid augments taking mod slots. Example: Loki's mechanically actually pretty darn good now, on paper - but that takes 3-4 augments, and that's bloody harsh) and so on needing reworks or polish, perennial bugs, etc. but if that's ever productive (It's not that these things don't get posted about, reported, etc.), I don't think it would be here.

But there has been good. And that is good. And it needs to be recognized.
It doesn't mean the bad stuff's not still there, or that I've forgotten about it, but it does need to be recognized - which I have.)

Edited April 6 by Chroia
A little clarification

[Exzult]

4 hours ago, [DE]Momaw said:

We've already made a big correction by fixing the new Line of Sight calculations which were, to put it bluntly, not as good as they should have been on release.

 

 

Yeah you know what, this entire thing here is so twisted, and if you analyze it, it's an intention to nerf a non-Prime frame. You make this correction then shove a jagged pill down people's throats and learn to live with it, great. I would expect that Dante's Prime will not have this. It's a marketing move, you just made him "too good" as a non-Prime frame and then profit for his next iteration as a Prime Access without LoS, amazing truly a win-win for you guys!

[vixenpixel]

4 hours ago, Voltage said:

Why not just remove Line of Sight from Tragedy? It's been a point of negative feedback every time it's been added to something. It doesn't matter whether it's Dante, Khora, or several other abilities and weapons. Line of Sight in Warframe has just been historically bad. I am all for allowing room for fixes and benefits, but Line of Sight has never really worked "well". I know most players forget about something a few weeks after it's passed, but Line of Sight issues have remained in the game for a very long time. 

In any case, thank you for the transparency and working towards improvements. The Overguard changes are nice to see as well. Here's hoping that this attention to Dante can be seen throughout other Warframes to give them much-needed love or long-overdue balance changes.

I second that. Things like not being able to leap at enemies standing behind a planter about three inches covering a foot of an enemy with voruna because of Los is quite annoying after a while. It sortof breaks the flow with unrealistic requirements. I don't mind explosions being blocked by cover though, it's just that Los might need a bit of a look-over.

[MegaloStrikeBack]

This still not what people asked for, remove the LoS and make him the way he was before. If he is overperforming after a month then go ahead and do whatever you need to do but there is nothing wrong with him that could have been observed in the span of just 5 days. 

[lumine99]

Dante's overguard changes is ACTUALLY good. Dante's Tragedy changes is REALLY bad. Please remove LOS check, it is unnecessary.

 

Now for Nezha's augment, I suppose you could buff the range a little bit. Right now with the augment it sits at 9.5m. Buff it a little bit so that the augmented unmodded range sits at 10-12m. Or you could reduce the multiplier a bit to slow them down instead of the reduced range. Give the multiplier 1x at 80% range just like octavia's mallet augment

[Stomno]

Revert Dante to his initial state, it's been less than a week, that nerf is killing your credibility

[Malwen]

Not even close to enough to fix the damaged you did with the last patch. I'll almost certainly not be purchasing anymore frames with real money or getting any more prime access.  Whats the point if they are just going to be ruined immediately afterwards.

[Jhon2prime]

Fico mais aliviado por assim dizer, em ver que vocês viram que o nerf que o Dante tomou não foi legal, estávamos tão empolgados com o novo frame e dias depois recebemos essa triste notícia mas obrigado aos desenvolvedores que redirecionaram seus atenção a comunidade, realmente os problemas com linha de visão vêm de anos de jogo e espero que o Dante não seja descartado rapidamente no arsenal devido a esse fator, pois você fez uma moldura mágica, espero que continue não nerfando ele mais, pois seria muito triste.

[Tarek9_]

thanks for listening to the community DE and for your efforts , but guys the LOS thing is just unfair for dante there's no issue in adding another well rounded frame like saryn , rev , octavia , wisp and others. 
therefore removing LOS just makes sense , and if yall want you can nerf the dmg potential a bit to compensate although i don't really think he's that OP.