[Dante Unbound] Our plans for next week (35.5.6)

[TheTundraTerror]

Tragedy never needed a nerf as, on release, it provided Dante with a solid gameplay loop of tagging mobs and cashing them in. All adding LoS does, at best, is turn him into a "Macro Bot" of spamming 3>3>4 on every group of targets. In fact, it also makes him less useful in teams since your allies were able to contribute to DoTs. Oh, your team mates running off and killing mobs? Yeah, you can't do anything to help.

I should also mention that, at this point, it's not even about the nerfs themselves. It's far more than that. It's about Rebecca saying that Dante's damage wouldn't be touched before rolling out damage nerfs. Remember: Rebecca is the director now. Either she didn't know that these were in the works which implies that the team is keeping things from her or she did know these damage changes were in the works and chose to lie to the playbase. Which is it?

It's requiring multiple posts to do what should have been done in the first place instead of taking bats to kneecaps. You didn't have to nerf Overguard, something that doesn't get any form of DR and therefor becomes a much weaker shieldgate. If anything, Dante should have been an incentive to take a look at Overguard itself and fix that.

It's looking at hundreds of posts over dozens of pages over multiple threads and ignoring all the feedback. Making changes that not only do nothing to solve the issue but make it worse. Lowering the OG given but increasing the regen to the dismay of all 4 Chroma mains. Adding LoS that seems to be tied to your camera instead of your Warframe which can now block LoS. Even if LoS did work fine, though, it would just make Dante less engaging and lead him into the realm of "Frames that need multiple casts to do something most Frames can do with a single cast" which is currently lead by Oberon.

DE. At this point, you've lost a lot of trust with the playerbase. In a live service game, you are reliant on the players trusting you; literally the entire reason you're about to make this kind of nerf is because players trusted you enough to spend upwards of $250 some 11-12 years ago. Breaking trust, especially when money changes hands, it not a magic trick that you can do more than once. I will be taking a screencap of this post and noting any possible alterations.

Edited April 6 by TheTundraTerror

[Xyt2494]

If you want to make all of us happy, then:

-Remove LOS on Dante

-Remove the range reduction on Nezha's Divine Retribution Augment

These are enough to make people wanting to play those two warframes again and then, there will be no more complaining

Edited April 6 by Xyt2494

[_GoodLuck_]

8 minutes ago, Xyt2494 said:

If you want to make all of us happy, then:

-Remove LOS on Dante

-Remove the range reduction on Nezha's Divine Retribution Augment

These are enough to make people wanting to play those two warframes again and then, there will be no more complaining

They just adding a job for themselves. Nerf something and then think what to do with it in the future

Edited April 6 by _GoodLuck_
typo

[PontifexPrimus1]

Please remove line of sight, or even better: revert the changes entirely and have another go when you've spent some time thinking about it before implementing it.

[Circle_of_Psi]

29 minutes ago, (XBOX)toughdragon17 said:

This thread has been open for 14 hours now and has alredy hit 16 pages with 387 replies from people who want the nerfs reversed on Dante and him to go back to his former perfect state 

And the developers have done nothing to do this for there comunity this shows how little they care for us 

We sit there and tell them exactly what we want and they ignore us and say that the comunity asked for this when the majority DID NOT

Let alone the other threads as well hit way over

No LoS, Revert OG Nerf, plain and simple done and dusted.

[AR_Has]

at thos point its clear that its an ego thing , when you have this much criticism and still hold on your baseless nerf its clear you don't listen to the community, you are the same as any devs out there, I thought you guys actually cared but its clear its all PR for you, shame on all of you

[Graue_Ritter]

I have never made a post on this forum, this is my very first one. I haven't engaged with very many video game communities since my Halo days, but I felt like I had to say something, in the hopes of adding more fuel to the fire so that DE might see it. 

Please, revert the changes to Dante, particularly in regards to Tragedy's LoS. Dante was not out of hand compared to the other monsters that sit at the the top. Mesa, Revenant, Octavia, Saryn... These kits would strike fear into the hearts of other game developers, but you have cultivated a massive power fantasy game, and I love that. The power fantasy in Warframe is the number one reason I am here. I actively abandoned Destiny, a game I spent the last 10 years playing, because of your power fantasy being so much better than theirs. You have so much player feedback here telling you how they feel about Dante. Telling you to revert the nerfs. I see it here, on reddit, on twitter and in game. Very few people are actually happy with the changes you have made to his kit, and all you need to do to fix it is just hit the revert button. You have done such a great job listening to us the past few months, so why do you ignore our cries now?

Disregarding the insults I've seen, no one is going to think less of you for doing the revert. It is just as important to stick to your guns as it is to know when to throw in the towel. The overguard changes are great and I'm sure they will solve the issue that our health tank frames were having. Just please, revert the Line of Sight change. You know we don't like it. I know you guys don't like it. Line of Sight is the reason I don't play Ember anymore, because even though you did a great job reworking her it is a very frustrating mechanic to work around.

Please do not cripple Dante when there are so many other frames that you have allowed to be powerful without these restrictions in place. You cannot tell me it is easier for you guys to rework LoS entirely, then it would be to just roll those changes back.

Thank you for coming to my ted talk.

[(XBOX)GigaSpartan117]

I can't even imagine how bad you'll treat the future soulframe community. You already killed nourish for me now I can't even enjoy Dante he feels so bad to play, just remove LoS and listen to your community.

[sunderthefirmament]

2 hours ago, Gidelix said:

I'm just confused at what Dante did to deserve such a huge """adjustment""".

Your stated three pillars for needing to nerf a frame are

AFK capability (how? Dante is constantly casting to do anything)

being disruptive to other players (that problem was with overguard which you've now addressed, but never had anything to do with tragedy)

and being overly dominant. Is this the one? He's been out for a week. Of course people are going to play the shiny new frame. Those who've already managed to get their hands on him, anyway, a good part of players didn't even have a chance to try Dante before he got a massive nerf. What gives?

The only one I can even remotely see for Dante was "overly dominant," but there's no way DE had enough data at the time to justify the nerf.  And to be quite honest, Dante was never going to be overly dominant from a damage standpoint, at least not in the level of content they're pushing us to lately.  His nuking falls off significantly against armored foes, particularly in steel path.  Yeah, he dominated base star chart fissures... but even axis are nowhere near what "endgame level" has become these days.  That's not a good metric for judging whether a frame needs a nerf.

 

As for his dominance from a support standpoint, I'm not as certain.  If the concern is how he outclasses older support frames, I think that ship sailed long ago.

[Hukkatsu]

This is my first ever post on a warframe forum,  I've been playing since day one, seriously just remove LoS from dante..... or the game entirely (as it is very buggy), resolve the issue with OG fair enough, LoS is too much of a nerf for this frame that was absolutely brilliant and fun to play, please listen to the community DE. I decided to make a meme build saryn and managed to wipe everything in seconds, with dante the issue was with OG which I totally get, no one had an issue with his 4th

Edited April 6 by Hukkatsu
Typo, added information

[SunixDev]

 

Wait wut really?

So you want more ? Have the best damage and range avoiding walls in the game to be top damage, afk gaming is good ... we will have bot in the game, it would be a good think in defence, i can imagine a guy easely make a bot with the good pathfinding and starting farming relics like that @DE ...

And at this point, its really way high compared for an excalibure player who start the game... he will feel frustrate doing nothink and no damage ...

 

 

[LioncubPrime]

This is very tape and glue solution for what you have done to Dante. You release something good, and then now to address the issue after some thinking of your definition of "dominance". I would like to bring up something to other players to see how unjust this solution to the Line of Sight newly "fixed".
First if the enemy is within 5 meters we don't do LoS at all, we just assume they are visible. This is still affected by Dante himself, if his render blocks any enemy from being render, the skill can never be landed.

Then checks if the enemy is being rendered, which works for any enemies on screen, so if you see even their pinky toe, they are considered visible. Now this part is very interesting and discriminating between devices, as now you are enabled crossplay and devices are not built the same, even on PC nothing will be exact same. And with different machines, the power to render quick or slow is very dependable on the machine which if the machine can render fast enough, you have high damage per second, if not, you are doomed. This will affect not only the survival game mode, but many other endless modes. Secondary, if your machine is weak and you host the game, it will hinder all other players performance, especially on small mobile devices like Nintendo Switches or Mobile which you just launched recently.

Then for enemies behind you instead of one raycast it does three, one to the top, another to the center and finally to the feet and if any of them are successful, then we determine it is visible, this means false blocks are much less likely. This is very sad and I have to say this does not work properly also, enemies stabbing your back to death and Tragedy does not hit them or do anything. This maybe be due to the previous part of render or not render.
I hope DE team can decide what is best for the game, and if DE cannot change what they did to Dante, then please update and change all for other frames as well as the janky mechanic you have just brought up again.

 

Edited April 6 by LioncubPrime
Remove quote & keep content

[Gaxxian]

hace 8 horas, Undivided_Infinity dijo:

Why Not Remove los and make it an 50 degree angle instead like dark verse but make it scale with range up to 360 degree angle 

Because we don't want nor need midpoints for a nerf that shouldn't happened in first place (at least so soon, before all the dust settles and we are able to see Dante's real dominance). So 0% compromises, 100% rollback with those nerfs.

[AR_Has]

I just tried him in survival New Map SP , I would say his kpm was nerfed for about 30% , I would honestly stomach it fine if not for the inconsistency in killing enemies, sometimes they would be infront of you and you mark them with dark verse but tragedy doesnt proc, if you must add LoS, please have Tragedy the same LoS of dark verse, but please not the other way around, dark verse LoS is not horrible but tragedy is still bad, or like others has mentioned remove the base damage from tragedy, so it wont nuke low lvl and only deal damage when we mark enemies with dark verse

Edited April 6 by AR_Has

[xXTheShaXx]

Please just remove LoS, there are a lot of nuking frames that can kill everything on the map easily but when dante does it then it's a problem?

[-Felix-sama-]

Please stop wasting dev time trying to get LoS to work. The ability will never be justified to spend energy on with any LoS restriction, because any LoS reduces Tragedy to the same usecase that our guns (like the Torid Incarnon) already solve- that is, killing the enemies we can currently see. And they solve it much better and cheaper.

Just remove the 5000-6500 base damage that the ability has and keep only the status detonation, to stop people nuking low levels with it, and then revert all LoS changes.

[InuKujo]

the update was so bad my friend want to send a death threat to DE balance department, he and me finally become wizard gang and now this. Why cant they just listen to the player's base and remove the buggy line of sight on all the frames that been affected? 
 

PLEASE REVERT IT? PLEASE FOR THE FUN PART OF THE GAME FUN?

[captn_Pat]

Now that you somewhat had ideas how to solve the overguard "problems" how about you REVERT the LOS BS and make him function like on release (you know, like really fun)? pretty please?

[thequebomb]

I'm really unsure why Dante got slapped with the nerf hammer?

If it was because he was good at nuking Starchart, almost half of the frames can mod to do similar or better, hell one of them is a literal starter frame that can 4 to win the entire starchart. Mag.

If it was because it was doing sp nuking too efficiently, theres saryn gauss voruna who do this better?

Considering saryn can mass armor strip as well?

Overgaurd, this is a confusing one. The changes to make it not be disruptive to gameplay make sense but why make me spam it 10 times to reach the cap ?

We have so much energy economy that it's not a problem to do but it's just a hassle for no real clear discernible reason(?)

All around confusing nerf for Dante. Not entirely sure what made them panic and nerf it without letting some time pass. 

[MouthfulOJoules]

16 hours ago, [DE]Momaw said:

People have been laughing all the way to the bank with their new-found riches of Archon Shards.

Glad to hear that reworks for certain interactions are being considered. This line, though, I find pretty inaccurate.

I'm sorry, but the chance to get 4 Melee adapters, 3x entrati lanthorns, 70 vosfor and a tradeable arcane for 3-6 missions (depending on whether you need to unlock elite first in future weeks) missions does not sound like laughing all the way to the bank.
Those 4 melee adapters are just 20 platinum each and we'll run out of melee weapons to put them on soon enough
The vosfor is not even half of a roll
Entrati lanthorns for long time players are... helminth resource, i guess? And farmable in the zariman at much faster rates.
The guaranteed arcane/tau is nice, though, even though you can get more arcanes than you want, at least they are tradeable.

I'm not asking to make the DArch not a breeze for lucky loadout rolls, that's gonna affect the people who weren't as lucky and the luckier ones, but the rewards should be better.

I've proposed multiple solutions before, but if anyone else has ideas, it'd be nice to hear them.

[Torvaldr]

And after 50+ pages and everyone asking to remove los ( or every nerf, because the original issue with rage / vex armor is resolved ?? ) and DE being deaf and persisting in doing changes no one asked for and no one want ( and breaking LoS even more btw)

 

They're still telling us that they listening to community, yikes

[Clamchop]

6 hours ago, About79Robots said:

Historically, I've been an open wallet for DE.

Give me a coupon with a 50% or greater discount, I'll buy plat. New Prime access, I'll buy it. Regal Ayatan has some interesting items, I'm game.

This is the first time I've been not just disappointed, but disgusted by DE. They were doing amazing recently too.


The LOS addition to Tragedy is laughable (the attempts to fix how LOS works are admirable - cause next to host migration it's one of the worst things about this game.) But this is the first time I've bought something from DE and thought "Damn, I want my money back." First time I've ever wondered if it's worth clawing it back forcefully and just having my account banned.

Over a $16 collection. 

Revert LOS.

 

Amen! ^^^^^^^^^^

[Gaxxian]

hace 5 minutos, thequebomb dijo:

I'm really unsure why Dante got slapped with the nerf hammer?

Seemingly because 4 persons didn't were able to use their new shinny Rage/Adrenaline with Inaros or the new augment for Chroma due to having Dante's casting OG into them.

hace 5 minutos, thequebomb dijo:

Overgaurd, this is a confusing one. The changes to make it not be disruptive to gameplay make sense but why make me spam it 10 times to reach the cap ?

Funnily enough, they could nerf OG given by Dante to 1%, and still being disruptive for those 4 persons, since the problem is the interaction, not the actual OG quantity.

hace 5 minutos, thequebomb dijo:

We have so much energy economy that it's not a problem to do but it's just a hassle for no real clear discernible reason(?)

There are at least 4 persons that cannot manage energy economy without Rage/Adrenaline, so nerfing Dante was completely necessary. Because there is no other warframe that avoid them using those mods... like Revenant, Frost or Styanax.

hace 5 minutos, thequebomb dijo:

All around confusing nerf for Dante. Not entirely sure what made them panic and nerf it without letting some time pass. 

Seemingly those 4 persons are the completely totality of Warframe Community. The rest are just for filling the gap and we can be happily ignored.

Edited April 6 by Gaxxian

[Hukkatsu]

I farmed dante, spent plat on rush building, put like 5 forma on him, 5 tauforged shards on him (using bile to take from other frames) modded the book to the max..... I feel ripped off by DE for sure. 

Edited April 6 by Hukkatsu
Typo

[DalanorTheLlama]

Revert back LoS changes.
Remove the damage portion from Tragedy.
Fix overguard interacting with on damage effects (already in the works, yay).
???
Profit