The hotfix and associated patch notes are tone deaf.

[MrDugan]

You are not listening to the community.  There were dozens of posts under your PSA about hotfixes that all said the exact same thing.  It wasn't "fix LOS."  it was "revert all nerfs."  Every one of them had around 100 likes on it.  Stay long enough in the forums and you'll realize that the people that are actually in the forums are only a small fraction of the whole community.  I understand this.  But for there to be that many people all saying the same thing, all in agreement, with people literally running out of an apparently limited number of likes they can put on comments in the forums you have to understand that this is representative of a very large section of the player base.  There are people showing up to the forums to yell at DE with comment counts in the single digits.  People that have played for a long time but never felt the need to come to the forums to discuss anything are showing up to yell at you.  The mods are so hastily sweeping every thread into the same pile that they're grabbing completely unrelated threads and merging them in as well.  They're pretty much guaranteed to do it to this thread.

You are on full damage control, a huge portion of the player base is mad at you, the mods are working round the clock to try and neaten this up for you and people that don't even engage with the forums are showing up to be mad at you and you have the gall to sit here and say you care about our feedback while simultaneously pushing through a patch that is getting more hate than any other patch in recent history.  And you learned some tough lessons during Duviri, and have even alluded to how many complaints that generated during live streams.  The only way is not just "forward."  You need to admit you screwed up and just undo this mess.  You are not doing yourself any favors by being dishonest and talking about how you're totally listening to us while literally ignoring everyone.

Edited April 6 by MrDugan

[Voltage]

If I'm being honest, this post is in very poor taste. DE has made swift commitments to the issue, and even increased the scope outside of Dante to benefit other Warframes with similar mechanics/issues. That's more than what people asked for. Yes, I know it's really easy to see DE as tone-deaf when talking about Line of Sight, but in their shoes, they don't have a good replacement if they removed Line of Sight entirely. DE read "remove Line of Sight from Dante" as "Line of Sight checks are a problem for all Warframes with it". That's so far from tone-deaf.

I'm totally in the boat of "remove Line of Sight", but that's only because I know historically, it has never worked. Removing Line of Sight temporarily while things are worked on to me is a better solution than continuously tweaking it with the hopeful resolution that it works well. My only reasoning for that is because there are many non-LoS options to choose from, so this becomes similar to Self Damage discussions from years ago. If you have tons of options that avoid the problematic mechanic, it doesn't matter how much you work to "fix" it.

The changes Pablo wrote out still need to be ironed out for sure, but I do think if we wait a week or so, we will have a much better overall game instead of looking at Dante in isolation. I'm skeptical whether DE "fixes" Line of Sight, but you can't say they are tone-deaf when they are actively working on the problem and committed to making adjustments within days of the problem arising. There are several things in Warframe that take years to be addressed. Dante by comparison is being looked at in real time and opening up changes that affect the entire roster of Warframes to perform better.

DE catering to these players asking to remove Line of Sight from Dante and ignoring other Warframes is worse for the game overall than what DE is working to achieve.

Edited April 6 by Voltage

[C11H22O1]

Maybe they would listen if people were more reasonable, they clearly want him to stay toned down, asking to revert it all is something they clearly don't want to do so instead of spamming that sentence try to suggest something in the middle.

The line of sight is probably the only one that is more of an issue, Khora still has issues with it, they should be working on fixing that aspect or remove it and find some other solution 

[Aruquae]

The patch notes in the past week is a perfect example of the door in the face phenomenon

That is all I will say

[Circle_of_Psi]

1 hour ago, Voltage said:

DE catering to these players asking to remove Line of Sight from Dante and ignoring other Warframes is worse for the game overall than what DE is working to achieve.

I think people wanted to have LoS removed on the other frames who got effected too, not just Dante

[Voltage]

1 hour ago, Circle_of_Psi said:

I think people wanted to have LoS removed on the other frames who got effected too, not just Dante

I'm not so sure. To be perfectly fair, even I missed Pablo's post initially, so I was still under the assumption DE was only looking into Dante. Now that I have all the information (which broadens the scope past Dante and into the rest of the arsenal), I care much less about Dante and moreso about the overall changes. There's still a ways to go before it's in a good state, but they do seem to be working on it. Apparently DirectX11 and DirectX12 have different LoS performance, and so does FoV.

I'm all for speaking up when I notice a blunder, but here, we can clearly see DE is working on a solution that also improves the rest of the game. I just think writing comments calling DE tone-deaf make you yourself look like you're reading the situation in bad faith.

Edited April 6 by Voltage

[Venus-Venera]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb Aruquae:

The patch notes in the past week is a perfect example of the door in the face phenomenon

That is all I will say

Yes. simply worst decisions ever. and you can feel that in the air too.

[Aruquae]

29 minutes ago, Venus-Venera said:

Yes. simply worst decisions ever. and you can feel that in the air too.

I can taste it
Tastes sour with betrayal, and spicy with rage

[Raarsi]

This whole ordeal I feel provides an excellent reminder that one of the worst parts about the game is honestly the playerbase.  DE does try to listen to the players, but when the players have no clue what they want (like most circumstances) or find themselves with incredibly divisive content like Dante, you can hopefully see how stuff like this Dante debacle happens.

[_Eclips3_]

20 hours ago, MrDugan said:

You are not listening to the community.  There were dozens of posts under your PSA about hotfixes that all said the exact same thing.  It wasn't "fix LOS."  it was "revert all nerfs."  Every one of them had around 100 likes on it.  Stay long enough in the forums and you'll realize that the people that are actually in the forums are only a small fraction of the whole community.  I understand this.  But for there to be that many people all saying the same thing, all in agreement, with people literally running out of an apparently limited number of likes they can put on comments in the forums you have to understand that this is representative of a very large section of the player base.  There are people showing up to the forums to yell at DE with comment counts in the single digits.  People that have played for a long time but never felt the need to come to the forums to discuss anything are showing up to yell at you.  The mods are so hastily sweeping every thread into the same pile that they're grabbing completely unrelated threads and merging them in as well.  They're pretty much guaranteed to do it to this thread.

You are on full damage control, a huge portion of the player base is mad at you, the mods are working round the clock to try and neaten this up for you and people that don't even engage with the forums are showing up to be mad at you and you have the gall to sit here and say you care about our feedback while simultaneously pushing through a patch that is getting more hate than any other patch in recent history.  And you learned some tough lessons during Duviri, and have even alluded to how many complaints that generated during live streams.  The only way is not just "forward."  You need to admit you screwed up and just undo this mess.  You are not doing yourself any favors by being dishonest and talking about how you're totally listening to us while literally ignoring everyone.

They are listening, they just don't want to admit they were wrong.

[MrDugan]

8 hours ago, Voltage said:

DE has made swift commitments to the issue, and even increased the scope outside of Dante to benefit other Warframes with similar mechanics/issues. That's more than what people asked for

Not from where I'm sitting.  They made "swift commitments" to stick to what THEY wanted to do, and the only fixes they're providing is making mechanics within the game that do not work, actually, MAYBE functional.  Mechanics that should have been fixed years ago regardless, for any number of frames where it was brought to light that LOS was broken.  I was one of the few people that liked and defended the Ember rework, and I very calmly and politely brought up that LOS was laughably broken and I and everyone else that did so were completely ignored.  Imagine that.  The whole forum has to riot for them to fix something that is mechanically broken, and they're only doing it as a bandaid response to a nerf that wasn't necessary to start with.  The only other thing they're actually fixing is the Rage/OG interaction.  They are fixing two broken things while still pushing forward with the entirety of their nerfs, which is NOT what people asked for.  They're doing the absolute bare minimum of fixing things that are actually broken while not listening to the large number of people mad about the nerfs, and you call that giving us MORE than what was asked for?  They broke the things they're fixing to start with and they're still nerfing a frame that needed no nerfs despite major backlash and they're acting like they're saints for doing it and that's not tone-deaf to you?  He's still being nerfed.  Them FINALLY fixing something that straight up doesn't work, that has been broken for years, is not listening.  It's lip service so that they can look good and distract from the actual nerfs still taking place.

 

8 hours ago, C11H22O1 said:

Maybe they would listen if people were more reasonable

A lot of us very calmly informed them that LOS didn't work back when Ember was reworked.  They knew LOS didn't work back when Viver happened.  They have known that LOS is a dumpster fire death sentence to any frame that gets it during a nerf.  How long has it been and they're just now listening?  Like first of all, I AM being reasonable.  Second off, the level of sweetness and sugar coating you're expecting has literally never worked.  Not once.  Everyone mad is what they respond to.

 

6 hours ago, Voltage said:

we can clearly see DE is working on a solution that also improves the rest of the game

I am clearly seeing them work on a solution to a problem that has been in the game for years, and wouldn't be a problem with the current issue with Dante if they hadn't nerfed him in the first place.  That's a solution to a separate problem.  Not a solution to the Dante nerfs.  They created Problem A, and ignored it for years.  They create problem B, and now they're fixing A while leaving B and you somehow see this as a solution to fixing both.  It's not.

 

5 hours ago, Raarsi said:

the players have no clue what they want

As a group, the majority opinion, based on hundreds of pages of feedback and the hundreds of likes on that feedback, pretty well makes it known that the player base DOES know what it wants.  It's just not was DE wants.  Even the guy that created the "dante might be too good" thread that ended up becoming the megathread has said he did not want these nerfs.  There is a very small group within the community that seems to always want everything nerfed.  Their existence does NOT signify that "players have no idea what they want."  Because it's obvious to anyone with eyes that we do.

[Circle_of_Psi]

14 hours ago, Voltage said:

I'm all for speaking up when I notice a blunder, but here, we can clearly see DE is working on a solution that also improves the rest of the game. I just think writing comments calling DE tone-deaf make you yourself look like you're reading the situation in bad faith.

Fair enough, tho I don't think folks are gonna care, they want LoS gone and they'll keep calling DE out on this until they get it.

Unless they can prove to the player base that this LoS change is good

[SneakyErvin]

3 hours ago, Circle_of_Psi said:

Fair enough, tho I don't think folks are gonna care, they want LoS gone and they'll keep calling DE out on this until they get it.

Unless they can prove to the player base that this LoS change is good

People have already proven it is good and working. Sure it needs a few tweaks since there seems to be odd cases of bugs tied to it on certain DX settings and FoVs. For me it works without any kinks, for others there are minor issues. If they iron those out it can be beneficial to the whole game, since they could potentially apply it to more skills, both old that have LoS currently and other skills that could use it for balance. It could also open up for AoE weapons getting LoS tied to them to make them feel and play more realistic while also adding balance to the game. More or less if they manage to fix all kinks with Dante LoS it opens up for similar AoE to get the same treatment on other frame, if they then fix Whipclaw with this new LoS system it opens up for AoE weapons to have LoS added, since they'd check their LoS from the same point as Whipclaw, with improvements from the Dante system.

So all in all, a win-win for the game as a whole.

[MrDugan]

5 hours ago, Circle_of_Psi said:

Unless they can prove to the player base that this LoS change is good

It will never be good, even if it works flawlessly, because it was a stupid change to start with.  His 3 already requires it, which means the trigger for the detonator requires LOS when you already had to have it just to set the skill up.  

[Circle_of_Psi]

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

So all in all, a win-win for the game as a whole.

I guess I can see that but all we can do is wait and see.

If they revert the OG stuff and somehow actually put the effort in fixing LoS, then it might become accepted, otherwise, it just needs to get a full revert, but IMO, they should revert it all entirely and then add it back until the yare 100% sure it works correctly

24 minutes ago, MrDugan said:

It will never be good, even if it works flawlessly, because it was a stupid change to start with.  His 3 already requires it, which means the trigger for the detonator requires LOS when you already had to have it just to set the skill up.  

Two sides to one coin here, I agree with you as well, there is always a chance (If not 100%) it won't be good

so either way..

[SneakyErvin]

23 hours ago, Circle_of_Psi said:

I guess I can see that but all we can do is wait and see.

If they revert the OG stuff and somehow actually put the effort in fixing LoS, then it might become accepted, otherwise, it just needs to get a full revert, but IMO, they should revert it all entirely and then add it back until the yare 100% sure it works correctly

I just dont see a reason to revert the OG. He has constant regen that makes him (and allies) 100% invincible, no other OG has that, he also doesnt require to hit anything to buff it manually, everyone else does. The cap isnt all that matters. They could in reality reduce it to whatever and he would still turn himself and allies immortal for whatever the duration of the buff is in your build. Removing LoS until it works for everyone might look like a good idea, but then they wouldnt really know when it is fixed for players, since it is currently based on individual settings that differ for several players. In house testing doesnt go as far as having it in a live environment among the public. I currently have had no problems, if I had I would notice since I'm currently fuming about a few other bugs that made it live with Dante, like odd melee interactions, auto-run turning of for some reason during certain combat interactions and so on. I might maybe be bugged the otherway, since I've had tragedy cases where I've gone "huh, how did I hit that?" at time, where the thing his has been completely covered as far as I could see. Like full pillars blocking a few enemies that still go kaplopp.

23 hours ago, MrDugan said:

It will never be good, even if it works flawlessly, because it was a stupid change to start with.  His 3 already requires it, which means the trigger for the detonator requires LOS when you already had to have it just to set the skill up.  

The reason for the LoS on Tragedy was because it was in DEs eyes disruptive. Are most people not aware that it requires no priming in order to deal "massive" damage in low content? Yes sure you need to cast 2 dark verse before it, but you can just waste them into empty air. My tragedy atm deals uhm something like 20000 damage straight up, which there is nothing on the star chart that can really survive. And without the LoS it hit everything that was over 50m away. So it what was 3+3 on anything or nothing then 4 for a map wipe. Those are also likely the most vocal crowd atm, lowbie champions destroying maps per cast. I played Dante full on SP before the nerf and full on SP after, and there is really no difference. Why people even feel a need to hit things behind them is uhm hard to grasp. Why let enemies spread in that way so you need to split up your actual heavy damage for half the potential damage in two directions? I rather 334 and then turn to 334 instead of 3turn34, since if there is something heavy that needs 4 stacks it will still require you two full 3turn34 combos no matter what. Or just position myself so I dont have enemies in the rear, like when playing kullervo, dagath, protea, garuda and others.

edit: Gaxxian had a great idea though. Remove LoS and remove the initial damage, that way no more disruptive lowbie nuking and people can split their damage if they like. Win-win.

Edited April 8 by SneakyErvin

[Drachnyn]

I dont think the patch notes were tone deaf, I think the dante nerf in its entirety was not well thought out. DE admitted they made a mistake. I'm just not sure what possessed them to rush out this dante nerf so quickly. I know people are joking DE is scared to release something above dumpster quality but that's silly. And yet I have no other explanation.

[(XBOX)K1jker]

They're lying

[Circle_of_Psi]

41 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

I just dont see a reason to revert the OG. He has constant regen that makes him (and allies) 100% invincible, no other OG has that, he also doesnt require to hit anything to buff it manually, everyone else does. The cap isnt all that matters. They could in reality reduce it to whatever and he would still turn himself and allies immortal for whatever the duration of the buff is in your build. Removing LoS until it works for everyone might look like a good idea, but then they wouldnt really know when it is fixed for players, since it is currently based on individual settings that differ for several players. In house testing doesnt go as far as having it in a live environment among the public. I currently have had no problems, if I had I would notice since I'm currently fuming about a few other bugs that made it live with Dante, like odd melee interactions, auto-run turning of for some reason during certain combat interactions and so on. I might maybe be bugged the otherway, since I've had tragedy cases where I've gone "huh, how did I hit that?" at time, where the thing his has been completely covered as far as I could see. Like full pillars blocking a few enemies that still go kaplopp.

Fair point, however I just simply don't think players care, they'll revert it if they like it or not, otherwise thread after thread will still keep preparing, I rather they just add the 5000 OG back and keep it done and dusted, since other frames can get way stronger OG, then Dante rn, it's a un-needed Nerf.

As for the LoS, same story.

44 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Gaxxian had a great idea though. Remove LoS and remove the initial damage, that way no more disruptive lowbie nuking and people can split their damage if they like. Win-win.

I assume this means that Dante not has any damage when using his Dark Ver, only when casting Dark/Dark then 4th will do actual damage, like a actual primer tool?

If so I'd be down for this

[SneakyErvin]

7 minutes ago, Circle_of_Psi said:

Fair point, however I just simply don't think players care, they'll revert it if they like it or not, otherwise thread after thread will still keep preparing, I rather they just add the 5000 OG back and keep it done and dusted, since other frames can get way stronger OG, then Dante rn, it's a un-needed Nerf.

As for the LoS, same story.

It would be better those people learn the frame instead. "Stronger" isnt true, a higher cap, yeah, stronger, no, not by far. But as with most things people are blind to big numbers while not seeing everything else around it. There are just too many benefits to Dante OG over the other frames.

11 minutes ago, Circle_of_Psi said:

I assume this means that Dante not has any damage when using his Dark Ver, only when casting Dark/Dark then 4th will do actual damage, like a actual primer tool?

If so I'd be down for this

Final Verse Tragedy will have no innate damage, it will only deal damage based on status stack. Currently Final Verse Tragedy deals 6500(!) slash damage without the need for any statuses at all on the target. Thats likely the reason DE added the LoS to Tragedy to reduce disruptive low level gameplay and also why most people are crying. Many people have been unaware that Dark Verse already required LoS and are likely unaware that Tragedy deals upfront damage aswell, while also playing mostly low content. Which is why they see a big change with the LoS added, because they can no longer nuke unprimed maps in the content they play.

Dark Verse will still rely on LoS as intended at release and deal the 2x direct slash damage instances and apply the statuses.

[crazywolfpusher]

11 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Currently Final Verse Tragedy deals 6500(!) slash damage without the need for any statuses at all on the target. Thats likely the reason DE added the LoS to Tragedy to reduce disruptive low level gameplay and also why most people are crying. Many people have been unaware that Dark Verse already required LoS and are likely unaware that Tragedy deals upfront damage aswell, while also playing mostly low content. Which is why they see a big change with the LoS added, because they can no longer nuke unprimed maps in the content they play.

Dark Verse will still rely on LoS as intended at release and deal the 2x direct slash damage instances and apply the statuses.

This. And it's funny because the same people are crying about the Overguard changes. Which in high level content, doesn't even matter how much Overguard you have.

The nerfs were aimed at low level content, which is were most people play. Dante making the whole squad immortal while also killing every enemy on a 40m+ radius effortlessly, can trivialize the game.  The nerfs were poorly timed, yes, but needed nonetheless.

 

Now, no excuse for how janky line of sight was implemented, and still need fixes, so people need to give them time to work on it properly. This affect a decent number of frames, it's not Dante exclusive.

 

[Roble_Viejo]

En 6/4/2024 a las 13:03, Voltage dijo:

If I'm being honest, this post is in very poor taste.

Poor taste is launching a new Warframe, including him in 2 Platinum Bundles
and 1 Supporter Pack and then nerfing him into the ground less than a week later

The backlash of Dante nerf is absolutely justified
and Players have the right to say what they think

[MetalMechabolic]

*Uses Saryn*

*poison enemy*

*close door*

*run away*

*hang out half a map away*

*see my infected number go up*

*infect other side of map*

*run back to the first half*

*funny number in circle is approaching 200*

Man, I don't even need a weapon.  Glad they didn't tweak this frame, I can downright stomp the circuit if I get that frame and a gun that can cause an AoE explosion!  I don't know why Dante is suddenly a problem when others can do the same thing with less button presses, lol.

Edited April 8 by MetalMechabolic

[crazywolfpusher]

1 minute ago, MetalMechabolic said:

*Uses Saryn*

*poison enemy*

*close door*

*run away*

*hang out half a map away*

*see my infected number go up*

*infect other side of map*

*run back to the first half*

*funny number in circle is approaching 200*

Man, I don't even need a weapon.  Glad they didn't tweak this frame, I can downright stomp the circuit if I get that frame and a gun that can cause an AoE explosion!  I don't know why Dante is suddenly a problem when others can do the same thing with less button presses, lol.

Bruh, Saryn can't even keep her spores at low levels. You clearly don't know what you are talking. 

Are we talking about level 10 missions? subsume Thermal Sunder, join the club.

[MetalMechabolic]

4 minutes ago, crazywolfpusher said:

Bruh, Saryn can't even keep her spores at low levels. You clearly don't know what you are talking. 

Are we talking about level 10 missions? subsume Thermal Sunder, join the club.

Didn't seem that hard to me.  Pop spores on enemy, get group infected, run to anther group before stacks fall and apply to new group.  Run to previous group to loot as the other side is dying and repeat.  Though I managed to create a bottleneck in a greenier map while farming terillum and got in a situation where I was borderline passive farming.  After having that power, it blows me away that DE sees Dante as an issue but let this go on for whoever knows how long, lmao.