Unpopular opinion DE should make archon shards buyable from market and quests pay to skip

[-ShadowRadiance-]

I say tradeable at minimum. 

Purchaseable for plat directly from the game store?.. honestly.. no..

[rahetalius4.2.0CE]

Eh, pay to skip is a hard no, nuh-uh. I know technically you can get to the latest quests and etc. MR 0, but, well, I don't think they were exactly made in mind for someone who's stuck with a mk1 braton that only has an ammodrum, and the only other times they've allowed people to get higher level items than they're meant too, is when they spend real world cha-ching on bundles, like prime access.

[Aruquae]

1 hour ago, -ShadowRadiance- said:

I say tradeable at minimum. 

Purchaseable for plat directly from the game store?.. honestly.. no..

Hmmmm not sure about tradeable

Time gated content shouldn’t be tradable (like Umbral forma) 

[SneakyErvin]

18 hours ago, UnstarPrime said:

My gut reaction was, "that's not the definition of P2W!"  But then I took a step back, decided to check my biases at the door, and went to do some research.  I did a simple search for "pay to win" on Duckduckgo and here are the first 5 results I found, in order without any cherry-picking:

• https://www.makeuseof.com/what-is-pay-to-win-in-video-games/ In the simplest terms, "pay-to-win" describes a game where paying real money gives players a significant advantage over those who don't spend any money.
• https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-to-play "pay-to-win"— that is, that players can generally pay to obtain competitive or power advantages over other players.
• https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/pay-to-win pay-to-win: in computer games, involving or relating to the practice of paying to get weapons, abilities, etc. that give you an advantage over players who do not spend money
• https://www.howtogeek.com/771884/what-is-a-pay-to-win-game (this article didn't have a concise definition, but seemed to use the term to describe both multiplayer and single-player games, though it clarified that a common perception was that being P2W is considered "worse" in PvP games.
• https://www.gamedesigning.org/gaming/pay-to-win-games/ (this article also didn't have a definition, but it did list Warframe as one of the "best P2W games"

So at least according to all of these results, we can see that P2W is often being defined and discussed in ways that don't limit it to PvP games.  Now, does that mean that's the official definition?  I would immediately be murdered by linguists if I said "yes".  The truth is, language is flexible, especially when it comes to neologisms like P2W, so it's no surprise that different people have slightly different understandings of the term.

If we want to have semantic debates, we can argue about what the "real" definition is.  But do we want that?  I don't; that sounds exhausting and meaningless.  When my definition of a word is slightly different than your definition of a word, the best thing to do is just clarify the idea that we're intending to express and progress the conversation.  Getting everyone to agree on something — even something as theoretically simple as the definition of a word — is an exercise in futility.

I hope this helps anyone in any way because I spent way too much time researching and writing it XD

17 hours ago, Packetdancer said:

Hrm. Which element is that faction weak to, again? Might want to make sure you have an appropriate loadout...

Joking aside, I tend to agree that "P2W" isn't necessarily a PvP-specific concept (or term). After all, you can "win" a single-player game, so you can certainly "win" a PvE game.

(Your personal definition of "win" might differ from others, but regardless.)

I just wanna clarify a thing regarding P2W. While it isnt needed for a game to have PvP, the game needs to have competative aspects in the regular gameplay or be heavily driven by leaderboard rewards etc. In WF that doesnt apply. We dont have competative PvE setups, which is something similar to what WoW has, where you can practically drive someone away from farming areas by outkilling them. So if WF had that and sold more powerful items, then it could be considered P2W. However, in WF, if one player in a squad has payed real cash for a shortcut to a powerful item, everyone in the squad benefit from it, since things die faster and provide more loot during the session for everyone involved. 

I mean, Fortuna describes it perfectly why WF can never be P2W "We all lift together", which cant be more accurate with how the game is set up.

Also. single player games can never be P2W, since P2W is a term that is rooted in player to player interaction in a competative light. Single player games have no other players, if they do they are no longer single player, then they are multiplayer. The term is never about a player "winning" over the NPC. It is a term originally spawned purely from PvP, but has then been applied to other forms of competative setups where direct player vs player interaction isnt a thing but leaderboards or similar are, where the best player is rewarded, which can then be influenced by paying cash for items to make it easier to climb those boards.

Also, it needs to be significant and objective advantages. In WF the things some see as P2W are not objective since they are effectively also pay to lose for others. Like how some see even a frame access as a P2W method, when another player sees it as losing since the content is no longer relevant to play after that point. But most importantly, whatever anyone spends cash on in WF that brings power, it benefits us all when we play together and lift together.

[Packetdancer]

43 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

I mean, Fortuna describes it perfectly why WF can never be P2W "We all lift together", which cant be more accurate with how the game is set up.

While I agree this is a "we all lift together" scenario in terms of gameplay mechanics, in terms of player mentality it isn't always. I've run into people who'll look at the end-of-mission summary and consider it a competition as to who did the most damage, etc.

But moreover, as noted earlier, "win" in "pay to win" does not itself even need to be a competitive thing with regards to other players. Rathuum (or Dog Days), or the Index, still has a "win" condition even if we're all on the same team. And you can absolutely buy better gear and hit that win condition faster. Even if everyone on your team benefits.

[quxier]

On 2024-04-08 at 4:05 AM, Ace-Bounty-Hunter said:

On 2024-04-08 at 3:10 AM, Madinogi said:

but make em tradable among players, would be fine, it wont change the value of them since the only ones that exist are those already in players possessions, and it gives anouther place to make some plat if you have shards you dont want or use, or youre friends are getting some bad luck, you can trade with anouther person.

I disagree. That's no different to just buying them from the market. It's just a different source. 

If players want powerful endgame items, they should actually participate in the content and earn it themselves. That's why the Kuva/Tenet weapons, a good bulk of the Incarnon weapons and Archon Shards can't be purchased by cash/platinum.

There are difference. If you can trade then some people will do that content just to trade. You would still get people that plays it. However you would have people that enjoys it MUCH MORE. So it's win-win situation

On 2024-04-08 at 4:42 AM, Voltage said:

While Warframe is already a P2W game by technicality, allowing purchasable shards and such just errodes the main point of playing endgame. We are finally seeing modes added that make use of years of powercreep, and it should feel good whether you paid or played for that power that there is a place to use it with proper rewards.

If you like Warframe's powercreep nature but love buying your way through the game, there are other games out there where spending becomes a competition and almost PvP experience.

Maybe there is problem with endgame mission when people don't want to play endgame and just want rewards? I used to play Zariman because it was fun & it was rewarding. People have been playing Eidolons - some of them enjoyed it. Now what you have? Guaranteed 1 arcane per 30 minutes WEEKLY that you can trade? I'm soooo tired of recent "play X, Y, Z this week or you will have to wait a lot". I'm playing Circuit copy-paste for hours with random gear, Netracels and now ARchimedea with another 2x same mission but harder with not so great loot.

Maybe trading/buying is not the best but there something has to be done about all this timegates, weak loots etc!

18 hours ago, CephalonOlphus said:

*DE allows shards for plat*
*Naive players flock to the new hot build/frame* "wow this is great nothing can ever go wrong with this"
*DE nerfs frame/shard*
"I demand a refund for this false advertising, DE won't receive my money ever again!!!"

Sounds like great entertainment, they should do it.

Oh, let me do archon shard. I get Red shard. Great, it gives you e.g. 10% strength... for one frame. FANTASTIC!

*few years later*

Yeah, I'm exaggerating but getting such low value items ISN'T great either. For few months I've been doing archons and netracells. However I've barelly slotting them. They are almost worthless if you don't have few and/or Tau.

 

[SneakyErvin]

1 hour ago, Packetdancer said:

While I agree this is a "we all lift together" scenario in terms of gameplay mechanics, in terms of player mentality it isn't always. I've run into people who'll look at the end-of-mission summary and consider it a competition as to who did the most damage, etc.

But moreover, as noted earlier, "win" in "pay to win" does not itself even need to be a competitive thing with regards to other players. Rathuum (or Dog Days), or the Index, still has a "win" condition even if we're all on the same team. And you can absolutely buy better gear and hit that win condition faster. Even if everyone on your team benefits.

It is subjective though, so it doesnt apply to P2W. There must be some objective win and it must be over another player. Same as with dog days, it isnt against other players, just NPCs, P2W describes games that involves competative mechanics and rely on what would otherwise be pay-for-conveniance or pay-to-skip etc. All of those terms were used in non-competative games, then out pops the asia market MMO setups where P2W becomes the thing due to exclusivity and competition meeting behind a paywall.

The term simply doesnt refer to NPCs and quest/mission win conditions.

[Lord_Drod]

Oh no, not the pay to win debate again haha.  So if two guys start out and one guy is loaded he could purchase all the frames, arcanes, rivens, and keep all boosters up while they other guy buys nothing.  The advantage he's going to receive is pretty minimal because Warframe is a game that is mastered from experience, research and trial and error.  Progress faster isn't a straight forward win because you end up skipping a lot of the mechanics where you'd be learning things.

 Then after a certain amount of hours, that advantage is almost negligent because both players will easily be able to afford whatever they want to purchase that allows them to bypass content, with maybe the exception of some 20k plat rivens that won't necessarily take you over the top without actual game knowledge.

There's plenty of things you can't pay for as well and shards are rightfully one of those things, but even if you could purchase them they are more useful to the player who knows how to optimize them.  It's like the complex modding system, how nothing is explained and not what you'd think without reading the wiki.  Hours are the only way to get an advantage over players.  And even research itself isn't enough, because many things have to be tested in actual play; not everything is listed or even always correct in the wiki.

Edit: I forgot slots, catalysts, forma, and reactors...but the content doesn't really demand you to do all these things right off the bat.  It has a nice progression and it takes a while to learn the game and how to apply the tool you can buy.

Edited April 9 by Lord_Drod

[UnstarPrime]

12 hours ago, Hexerin said:

You don't get to just arbitrarily change the definition of a term, full stop.

By this logic, shouldn't "pay to win" refer to any game where you can "pay" "to" "win"?

As a programmer, I totally get the desire to have language be static and consistent, but the simple reality is that words vary in meaning over time and in different contexts.  If you have the inclination, I highly recommend taking a peek at videos by linguists on YouTube, as stuff like the etymology of words can often be surprisingly complex and fascinating!

[Voltage]

On 2024-04-08 at 3:59 PM, Hexerin said:

The definition of P2W is "the ability to spend real money on competitive advantages over other players". PvE games cannot be/have P2W, because PvE isn't competitive. Especially when the PvE in question is cooperative, like Warframe. No amount of screeching by people like yourself will change that definition, you just make yourself look ignorant by attempting to warp it to apply to whatever you disagree with.

I would watch this video from JoshStrifeHayes in regards to what I was saying. It goes over many intricacies and overall themes with the term relative to the modern landscape of games now.

Thinking "Pay to Win" is reserved solely for competitive advantages, you're sticking with a 20+ year old definition. Games have evolved, and the industry now realizes that selling a player an experience that feels better is not confined to a competitive player vs player setting. Throwing around the term "ignorance" while sticking to a very specific and outdated perspective of the term is ironic. I never said that Warframe's P2W is something I find wrong, I just expressed that we shouldn't have more of it for some endgame items that finally feel valuable to earn through new content.

Edited April 9 by Voltage

[Voltage]

On 2024-04-08 at 6:05 PM, Lorax_962 said:

then dont buy? im not saying they should only be buyable

Allowing something to be purchased errodes its value as an earned item, especially in a looter shooter. It happened to Aura Forma. Sure, you can technically save some Platinum by crafting Aura Forma, but the prospect of farming 150 Platinum or farming Arbitrations and 4 Forma per craft is really easy to pick if you know what you're doing. It also makes a full roster of Aura Forma'd Warframes feel less cool (imo). 

It's like Arcane Adapters. [DE]Rebecca initially said that these were earned-only items. This made the prospect of an entire arsenal kitted out with adapters feel like a real achievement. Now they're just a 20 Platinum unlock button. Yes, you can still farm them, and they are cheap, but their intrinsic value is diminished if any farmed achievement can be bypassed by farming Platinum. Those who understand trading can do the math in their head on whether a farmed item is a valuable prospect. With how time-gated the weeklies are for Incarnon Adapters, Umbra Forma, and Archon Shards, buying them outright (for Incarnon Adapters, the entire roster) would defeat the entire point of playing the endgame content, especially when these scheduled rewards are not meant to have a finish line in the first place.

I could answer your non-answer of "Then don't buy" with "Just play more actively" to be quite honest.

Edited April 10 by Voltage

[L3512]

WF totally has P2W elements.

[SneakyErvin]

14 hours ago, Voltage said:

I would watch this video from JoshStrifeHayes in regards to what I was saying. It goes over many intricacies and overall themes with the term relative to the modern landscape of games now.

Thinking "Pay to Win" is reserved solely for competitive advantages, you're sticking with a 20+ year old definition. Games have evolved, and the industry now realizes that selling a player an experience that feels better is not confined to a competitive player vs player setting. Throwing around the term "ignorance" while sticking to a very specific and outdated perspective of the term is ironic. I never said that Warframe's P2W is something I find wrong, I just expressed that we shouldn't have more of it for some endgame items that finally feel valuable to earn through new content.

Sorry to say since I like Josh, but he isnt old enough to actually know the ins and out regarding P2W since he has never experienced the eras of cash shops.

You are also starting things in the wrong end if I get what you are saying right. The "Games have evolved, and the industry now realizes" is backwards. What we see in WF and many other F2P games is the pre-P2W era monetization and in-game setup repeated, the era that spawned shortly after the add based F2P games. The reason P2W was even coined is because the old decriptions/acronyms like P2S (pay to skip), PfC (pay for conveniance) etc. didnt suffice when competition between players got involved and effectively monetized. This new acronym didnt apply to the non-competative games. So since WF and other games are set up like those even older games, it is an acronym that doesnt apply here either, since it isnt a competative game.

So yes, ignornace would be correct in this case, since what you are talking about with "selling a player an experience that feels better" is not P2W, it is either P2S, PfC or something similar. A player buying something to personally feel better or make the game feel better for him doesnt mean he's winning in the sense it is ment by the acronym P2W, since it is about him, not in relation to someone else that he gets an upper hand over. It isnt an objective benefit, nor is it positively significant either in comparison to someone that doesnt pay to get that specific thing. WF doesnt sell any objective benefits tied to player power, it also doesnt sell you anything that gives you an upper hand compared to a player not buying that thing, since there is no competition in WF and whatever that one guy buys, it benefits everyone else aswell when he uses it alongside other players. The game also lacks a cash path to what would be the best items, since even items and what is best are widely subjective. Just look at Dante that is S, A, D, C, D tier or completely usesless depending on who you ask.

Also "I never said that Warframe's P2W is something I find wrong" is uhm an odd thing to say, since P2W is a term that was coined in order to be a black mark placed on horrible monetization. So by refering to WFs monetization as P2W means you find the monetization wrong. It's like saying "I never said that Bob being bigot is something I find wrong". Both being deregatory terms aimed at something that is considered bad.

So shards in the cash shop wouldnt be P2W, they'd be conveniance items and skips, since all they'd really do is add QoL in a bad system. The power obtained from them benefits others in a group, they are readily available through gameplay and there is no competition. It would really just circumvent the tedious nature of unequipping them, since you could buy them to kit out all frames instead. The power wouldnt increase, since the power is limited to 5 slots per frame and already achievable rather quickly the moment you've kitted out your first frame of choice. You wont get more powerful by kitting out a second, third, fourth etc. frame with 5 shards, it will just bring you QoL since you dont need to engage with the mess that is swapping shards. It would also not be an objective "win", since someone else may instead prefer the weekly chase (I know I do)

[Ghastly-Ghoul]

Archon shards are already buyable. Purchase a carry from someone else for Archon Hunts, Deep Archemedia, Netracells, and Cavia standing.

[Lord_Drod]

Pay for subjective win.  Why isn't everyone who can afford to purchase buying everything they can then?    I'm not sure buying things cheapens their worth.  You could always purchase Hema.  Looking back, I don't know why I wasted time farming it compared to the plat cost, but since I did farm it, it will always hold that value to me.  I think they do a good balance of paid and earned things.  It is not black or white and is usually a nice convenience that becomes less of an advantage as players accumulate more time in the game.  After a certain point, most players have the ability to pick and choose what farms are worth it.

A good example of this is like sanctum mirror defense.  You can buy the table for like 120p?  Most can afford that and you're not really gaining much or missing out by not having those mods.  It was an easy purchase for me just for the time investment and the mode wasn't really something I'm that interested in.  Maybe if it was 1200p, I'd play it occasionally and earn those mods more slowly.  In turn, I'd have been more prepared for Mirror in Deep Arch.  So, in a way I did lose some by buying.  And maybe also, I would have ended up enjoying the grind, which often happens even if the grind itself feels bad initially. 

[TeaHands]

7 hours ago, L3512 said:

WF totally has P2W elements.

It's just with Warframe you kinda have to know the game to not get screwed over. Someone new to the game after unlocking trading can eventually buy all the Primed and Rare Mods available to give themself a nice power boost. Hopefully they knew to buy them at max rank. Otherwise they'll have to buy Ayatan Statues. And then yet again hopefully you knew to buy them already maxed out with Ayatan Stars. And then you would have to buy a sh*tload of credits.

I say this everytime it comes up. But I would love to see someone P2W their way through Warframe, from a New Game to 60 Eyes. It'd still be a pretty long slog, and they'd still have to grind Operator/Drifter.

[L3512]

16 minutes ago, TeaHands said:

I say this everytime it comes up. But I would love to see someone P2W their way through Warframe, from a New Game to 60 Eyes. It'd still be a pretty long slog, and they'd still have to grind Operator/Drifter.

They could reach MR30 in a month, just buy everything legitimately and non legitimately (boosting).

I don't think the game is hard enough that it would present an issue to a player with little experience and max gear.

Edited April 10 by L3512

[RichardKam]

34分钟前 , TeaHands 说:

It's just with Warframe you kinda have to know the game to not get screwed over. Someone new to the game after unlocking trading can eventually buy all the Primed and Rare Mods available to give themself a nice power boost. Hopefully they knew to buy them at max rank. Otherwise they'll have to buy Ayatan Statues. And then yet again hopefully you knew to buy them already maxed out with Ayatan Stars. And then you would have to buy a sh*tload of credits.

I say this everytime it comes up. But I would love to see someone P2W their way through Warframe, from a New Game to 60 Eyes. It'd still be a pretty long slog, and they'd still have to grind Operator/Drifter.

And then getting stuck beyond regular starchart because they don't know how to mod lol.

P2W is silly in this game. Without a proper knowledge your prime access gauss with 2k plat worth of arcane energize will get you nowhere near Zariman. It was never about money, it was about knowledge, something like how to abuse Saryn toxic lash and roar and sobek and DE weird damage formula.

[Lord_Drod]

4 hours ago, L3512 said:

They could reach MR30 in a month, just buy everything legitimately and non legitimately (boosting).

I don't think the game is hard enough that it would present an issue to a player with little experience and max gear.

Theres lots of players that have done similar things and they struggle in a wide variety of content because their builds and knowledge isn't there. 

They'd get completely wrecked in deep arch.  MR30 just helps with standing and time gates.  They wouldn't have the resources to engage with helminth, focus/operator, steel path, railjack, tileset knowledge, frame versatility, eidolons, disruption etc. 

Theres quite a bit more to mastering the game than just mindlessly leveling. 

[L3512]

11 hours ago, RichardKam said:

And then getting stuck beyond regular starchart because they don't know how to mod lol.

P2W is silly in this game. Without a proper knowledge your prime access gauss with 2k plat worth of arcane energize will get you nowhere near Zariman. It was never about money, it was about knowledge, something like how to abuse Saryn toxic lash and roar and sobek and DE weird damage formula.

You've picked a niche nuking option that pretty much anyone here will not have seen in the wild as how not to get stuck past the starchart?

A (badly) modded Revenant with a (badly) modded Laetum will complete 99% of the game, you can pretend it's hard but it really isn't. Youtube and Overframe will get people to level cap, DE's damage formula is pretty much the same as most other games but we have a ton of multipliers available as well as quirky abilities.

 

7 hours ago, Lord_Drod said:

Theres lots of players that have done similar things and they struggle in a wide variety of content because their builds and knowledge isn't there. 

They'd get completely wrecked in deep arch.  MR30 just helps with standing and time gates.  They wouldn't have the resources to engage with helminth, focus/operator, steel path, railjack, tileset knowledge, frame versatility, eidolons, disruption etc. 

Theres quite a bit more to mastering the game than just mindlessly leveling. 

Deep Arch came out like two weeks ago and you can be carried in it. Content like Eidolons and Disruption is played for rewards, all of which can be brought.

You might not like it but if someone started playing when WF came out, almost all of their progression could be replicated in 34 days of massive P2W minus some gimmicky cosmetics. Sure the knowledge wouldn't be there but WF is almost pure gear driven, Energize is Energize on a build even if you don't know what it does.

Gear is so powerful now that people don't need to know the bevy of archaic and arcane game knowledge that you've spent years acquiring.

Hell I've been doing SP bounties to increase my rank with the Cavia lately and I just watch as my Sentinel gathers up enemies and nukes them, like it can sustain LS by it's self at this point. A sentinel, on SP, that is how far the game has been power crept.

[RichardKam]

55分钟前 , L3512 说:

You've picked a niche nuking option that pretty much anyone here will not have seen in the wild as how not to get stuck past the starchart?

A (badly) modded Revenant with a (badly) modded Laetum will complete 99% of the game, you can pretend it's hard but it really isn't. Youtube and Overframe will get people to level cap, DE's damage formula is pretty much the same as most other games but we have a ton of multipliers available as well as quirky abilities.

It was a joke. Relax.

99% of the game yes, but some contents still require a little bit more than your regular arsenal. Void cascade for one, in which you still need your operator and a bit of juggling. Duviri SP Circuit, if people want to go there. The newly introduced DA and EDA, unless they also got Rev and incarnon and settle with lower tier rewards.

Ytube and overframe will get people to level cap, yes of course - that's what we called learning, and that is beyond pay2win isn't it? Plat and money won't get you there if people don't at the very least learn from ytube and overframe.

Also, people are still complaining pub netracell in which a random Tenno was on a killing frenzy outside the red circle. The game is not hard, but never overestimate the player base.

Edit: I forgot the most important thing. When we talk about P2W, what does it mean by "winning" in this sandbox arsenal 3rd person shooter exactly? I don't have a very clear definition of "winning" in Warframe actually (I don't think there is a consensus as well), so calling Warframe is P2W is a bit fuzzy to me.

Edited April 11 by RichardKam

[Lord_Drod]

36 minutes ago, L3512 said:

A (badly) modded Revenant with a (badly) modded Laetum will complete 99% of the game, you can pretend it's hard but it really isn't. Youtube and Overframe will get people to level cap, DE's damage formula is pretty much the same as most other games but we have a ton of multipliers available as well as quirky abilities.

Deep Arch came out like two weeks ago and you can be carried in it. Content like Eidolons and Disruption is played for rewards, all of which can be brought.

You might not like it but if someone started playing when WF came out, almost all of their progression could be replicated in 34 days of massive P2W minus some gimmicky cosmetics. Sure the knowledge wouldn't be there but WF is almost pure gear driven, Energize is Energize on a build even if you don't know what it does.

Gear is so powerful now that people don't need to know the bevy of archaic and arcane game knowledge that you've spent years acquiring.

I've been doing SP bounties to increase my rank with the Cavia lately and I just watch as my Sentinel gathers up enemies and nukes them, like it can sustain LS by it's self at this point. A sentinel, on SP, that is how far the game has been power crept.

Not really.  You can't buy completed builds and that is definitely part of progression.  Can you complete missions?  You'd still suck at the game overall.  Have you really never experienced these people that are MR30+ and have no clue what they're doing?  There's more to the game than just progression.  Most of the overframe builds are no good, just like youtube videos.  You just think people are on the same level because they can receive same rewards as you?  Who cares about level cap as well when you're citing rewards for equality, and there are no rewards up there. 

You can buy your progress, but you still don't know what you're doing, how to mod, how to play, navigate.  And just because they can receive same reward and bought their way there, well they might as well uninstall at that point since they've bought their way to a 7 yr veteran and are their equal in your mind, with nothing else worthwhile (aka there isn't a point to learning or being good, just being able to start the mission and walk to extract).  If they have no interest in learning, since they are able to pass mission, what are they even playing for?  Why buy the way there?  So they are going to have to start learning that content, have to farm, at some point or the game won't hold any value to them. 

The entire game is mastering gear, and different playstyles, which you cannot buy.  It's pointless just copy and paste some builds and buy all the content, just to earn rewards that have no value to you because you aren't going to diversify at all since the goal is just to do that.  That really isn't what Warframe is about.  If you enjoy playing it, you'll get bored with copy and paste builds, and will have to learn and research other methods.  It's just not about completing missions.  It's about diversity and grinding.  I highly doubt anyone who buys everything in that manner would stick around unless they changed their methods and started learning.  

[L3512]

22 minutes ago, RichardKam said:

Ytube and overframe will get people to level cap, yes of course - that's what we called learning, and that is beyond pay2win isn't it? Plat and money won't get you there if people don't at the very least learn from ytube and overframe.

Even in the most P2W games you still have to play, money just gets you there faster in this case regardless of knowledge.

 

17 minutes ago, RichardKam said:

Edit: I forgot the most important thing. When we talk about P2W, what does it mean by "winning" in this sandbox arsenal 3rd person shooter exactly? I don't have a very clear definition of "winning" in Warframe actually (I don't think there is a consensus as well), so calling Warframe is P2W is a bit fuzzy to me.

And that is the crux of this issue, the definition of winning in WF. As you can directly buy the most powerful gear in the game, coupled with the progression of gear mechanics, I'd call that elements of P2W, even if you are just completing an event alert level 10 exterminate like anyone else.

[L3512]

13 minutes ago, Lord_Drod said:

You can't buy completed builds and that is definitely part of progression.

You literally can.

 

13 minutes ago, Lord_Drod said:

Have you really never experienced these people that are MR30+ and have no clue what they're doing?

I play other games where people have thousands of hours and still make builds that do not function correctly, they certainly didn't pay unless it was a boosting service. it is not a WF issue however crafting and mastering hundreds of items worth of crap also doesn't inherently fill you with knowledge.

 

13 minutes ago, Lord_Drod said:

Most of the overframe builds are no good, just like youtube videos.  You just think people are on the same level because they can receive same rewards as you?  Who cares about level cap as well when you're citing rewards for equality, and there are no rewards up there. 

They are good enough, the bar here is extremely low.

 

19 minutes ago, Lord_Drod said:

You can buy your progress, but you still don't know what you're doing, how to mod, how to play, navigate.  And just because they can receive same reward and bought their way there, well they might as well uninstall at that point since they've bought their way to a 7 yr veteran and are their equal in your mind, with nothing else worthwhile (aka there isn't a point to learning or being good, just being able to start the mission and walk to extract).  If they have no interest in learning, since they are able to pass mission, what are they even playing for?  Why buy the way there?  So they are going to have to start learning that content, have to farm, at some point or the game won't hold any value to them. 

Because at some point you start looking at people with mental issues? They have problems and a lot of games set out to milk them for cash.

Also why do people cheat in PvP? Why don't they just get good?

 

15 minutes ago, Lord_Drod said:

The entire game is mastering gear, and different playstyles, which you cannot buy.  It's pointless just copy and paste some builds and buy all the content, just to earn rewards that have no value to you because you aren't going to diversify at all since the goal is just to do that.  That really isn't what Warframe is about.  If you enjoy playing it, you'll get bored with copy and paste builds, and will have to learn and research other methods.  It's just not about completing missions.  It's about diversity and grinding.  I highly doubt anyone who buys everything in that manner would stick around unless they changed their methods and started learning.

That is your opinion, other people do not share your ideas or experiences.

People will play WF, throw hundreds or even thousands of dollars at it, get bored and move on. DE got their money, they do not care if these people stick around. These players also do a lot more for cash flow than a MR34 ten year player that only ever brought 20 bucks worth of plat 8 years ago when they got a 75% coupon because they have logged in and played almost ever day for an entire decade.

[Lord_Drod]

9 minutes ago, L3512 said:

You literally can.

You can buy builds with forma in it and reactors and cats?  I have never heard of this.

 

17 minutes ago, L3512 said:

I play other games where people have thousands of hours and still make builds that do not function correctly, they certainly didn't pay unless it was a boosting service. it is not a WF issue however crafting and mastering hundreds of items worth of crap also doesn't inherently fill you with knowledge.

Having thousands of hours in game won't necessarily lead to good builds, that's correct, nor does mastering everything.  I won't say its impossible, but its pretty unlikely to have good builds 34 days in.  Even copy and pasting.  But you view that as useless excess anyway, since its just about getting the green light to extract.

 

10 minutes ago, L3512 said:

That is your opinion, other people do not share your ideas or experiences.

People will play WF, throw hundreds or even thousands of dollars at it, get bored and move on. DE got their money, they do not care if these people stick around. These players also do a lot more for cash flow than a MR34 ten year player that only ever brought 20 bucks worth of plat 8 years ago when they got a 75% coupon because they have logged in and played almost ever day for an entire decade.

Plenty of people share my opinion.  Just as your opinion is apparently the only objective is to complete missions.  And you realize if that was the only type of player in Warframe, the game would die?  DE should care about trying to retain these players.  I don't know why they wouldn't.  They ideally would want a balance of players who spend a lot and grind a lot.  It's kind of like a standard poker ecosystem.  The whale doesn't play without the grinders.  The grinders don't play without the whale.  The game dies without a balance of both.