Dante hotfix #7

[Killtweety]

Still no fix for overguard completely being removed from companions when using melee, doing a finisher or bulletjumping into an enemy. Dante's 2 still doesn't increase health like his tooltip says. On top of that you added the LoS checks that prevented tragedy from doing damage when Dante himself was blocking view of the enemy to dark verse, when everyone is asking to remove the LoS checks on tragedy and reduce range. Either you (DE) don't give a damn about our feedback or you can't read.

[xXTheShaXx]

really mate, ffs since they added LoS everybody has been complaining about it and yet they don't care at all

 

[captn_Pat]

fix #8: We heard you loud and cleer, we removed the LOS restrictions from his 4 and gave it a 4.2 meter radius,(nazha mains can relate) And to compensate for that imense power we upped the ennergy cost of his 3 and 4 to double the amount.

Also we gave saryns spores sharks with laserguns that can oneshot everything in a 100 meter radius and removed the LOS from Mesa, to compensate they both generate OG at 5k a kill.

[yeahnil]

They also broke pillage. 
  

vor 7 Minuten schrieb Halo:

I will thank DE for reverting the status damage for Pageflight, but the LoS stuff just has me reverting so many builds.

Stop doubling down on this trash mechanic you're unable to implement with your style of level geometry.

 

[(PSN)Thanatos-Prime]

6 minutes ago, yeahnil said:

They also broke pillage. 
  

Stop doubling down on this trash mechanic you're unable to implement with your style of level geometry.

 

O.o STOP BREAKING STUFF DE, your supposed to be working on Dante, not buggering crap that's worked fine for years! Smh

[Nekomian]

9 minutes ago, yeahnil said:

They also broke pillage. 

It has always had LoS checks, the wiki even states "enemies in direct line of sight of Hildryn and within range of her aura are marked for pillage" prior to this change, and for as long as I can remember. I'm failing to see what was "broken", it seems working as intended to me, if not better because now it includes rendered checks (meaning you don't even have to have line of sight, the enemy just has to be rendered on screen). As a reminder - the check only needs to pass once for this ability to register the enemy as marked for pillage.

Edited April 10 by Nekomian
missed typing a word :(

[OnestarMike]

It’s so over for Dante. Dude is just gonna fizzle out like nothing ever happened.

[NemiTheNem]

4 minutes ago, OnestarMike said:

It’s so over for Dante. Dude is just gonna fizzle out like nothing ever happened.

Nah, he's just going to be like a wisp without breach surge, or a Trinity.  Nice to have on the team but meh.

That or someone's gonna make a beast of a Noctua build and then that'll get nerfed into the ground

[OnestarMike]

2 minutes ago, NemiTheNem said:

Nah, he's just going to be like a wisp without breach surge, or a Trinity.  Nice to have on the team but meh.

That or someone's gonna make a beast of a Noctua build and then that'll get nerfed into the ground

That is a death sentence for this frame. If I’m just gonna use guns and not his abilities. I’m gonna play wisp. Dead frame

[TheTundraTerror]

Quote

Spoiler

 

This was the first thing I tested to see if Dark Verse's LoS was "working". Literally the most basic test; totally reasonable to be at the bottom of some stairs and this game is full of them. I shouldn't be able to hit a single mob; none of them are visible on my screen and none of them should be visable to Dante.

I hit 3. Despite having a full Orokin Battlegroup spawned, somehow I manage to hit these three specific enemies which are: the one furthest to the front and right, the one left of him, and the one behind the first. This is why I have such a burr with LoS; no matter how many times DE fixes it, it will always be inconsistent.

If anyone thinks I'm lying, try it yourself. Spawn the same pack, stand around the same spot, have enough range, and hit 3.

[Nekomian]

1 minute ago, OnestarMike said:

I feel like if I’m sayrn or lavos or whatever it would be pretty awesome to have someone detonate my status effect for big damage.

I mean for you maybe, but some people would be very annoyed if your squad mate just gets 50 enemy kills every 20s, not letting them get any stacks on molt augmented or any other "on kill" condition. It had the potential to be very disruptive with a combination of 80m+ range and no other conditional check. You could be in another room fighting enemies entirely on your own and a Dante from a tileset over could kill the enemies you're trying to get stacks on.

There's many ways they could've gone about resolving this, but LoS check is probably the most intuitive without nerfing the ability stats directly (i.e. you see enemy or enemy is near you, it dies). If it's not working as intended I'd report those instances separately so they can fix them, but implemented properly it seems reasonable to me.

[NeDesitVirtus]

26 minutes ago, OnestarMike said:

Why do I have to slog through everything in game using guns why can we have a Warframe that’s fun to play with just their abilities?

You can easily just use abilities on base Starchart enemies...the few that show up. Leyzar Gaming Views has new player friendly builds for all of your base Starchart needs. Look him up. 

Seriously, as others have said Quorvex, Khora, Mesa, Hildryn, Vauban, Mirage and the list goes on can easily nuke Steel Path enemies with the right builds.

Every time I go into ESO for a quick forma on one of my many weapons I see these frames killing low level fodder and then they take these same builds into Base Steel Path and can't do much. 

In sum, every single frame and weapon's effectiveness is determined by the modding of them suited to different factions, weaknesses and so forth. 

The "slog" as you describe it is a mindset and perspective. Not to say there isn't considerable grind in this game because there is. Like doing 3 hrs of Tyana Pass for a Rank 5 Arcane Steadfast. It's a slog but worth doing if you don't want to spend plat on someone farming it for you. Then that slog becomes an investment. 

Edited April 11 by NeDesitVirtus
clarity and additional thoughts.

[OnestarMike]

21 minutes ago, vixenpixel said:

*cough* There's like a lot of them. 

But I like this one and this one was specifically designed to be ability focused and I like wizard gameplay.

14 minutes ago, NeDesitVirtus said:

You can easily just use abilities on base Starchart enemies...the few that show up. Leyzar Gaming Views has new player friendly builds for all of your base Starchart needs. Look him up. 

Seriously, as others have said Quorvex, Khora, Mesa, Hildryn, Vauban, Mirage and the list goes on. Every time I go into ESO for a quick forma on one of my many weapons I see these frames killing low level fodder.

I know those things exist. I don’t like those frames. They’re not as fun or interesting or aesthetically pleasing to me. Why does Dante have to take a hit if these other frames have greater power levels than him? 

[OnestarMike]

34 minutes ago, Nekomian said:

I mean for you maybe, but some people would be very annoyed if your squad mate just gets 50 enemy kills every 20s, not letting them get any stacks on molt augmented or any other "on kill" condition. It had the potential to be very disruptive with a combination of 80m+ range and no other conditional check. You could be in another room fighting enemies entirely on your own and a Dante from a tileset over could kill the enemies you're trying to get stacks on.

There's many ways they could've gone about resolving this, but LoS check is probably the most intuitive without nerfing the ability stats directly (i.e. you see enemy or enemy is near you, it dies). If it's not working as intended I'd report those instances separately so they can fix them, but implemented properly it seems reasonable to me.

I just disagree I think LoS was the worst path possible. If these other problems exist and players complained about them, then find solutions to make those experiences better, not nuke the thing that was fun in the first place. You could give kill credit to players that cause the most damage to an enemy.

[SudoSamurai]

Honestly don't know why I expected anything different. Think I'm done with Warframe again, for now. RIP to the one week Dante was good and the most fun I've ever had in the game. Now Dante's much worse and they're breaking frames and weapons all over the game to die on yet another stupid hill.

At least GGG listened to its playerbase and rushed out fixes for Path of Exile. Plenty of games to play. Shame to see this one continues to be run without a focus on fun.

[Stormandreas]

On 2024-04-10 at 8:50 PM, yeahnil said:

They also broke pillage. 
  

Stop doubling down on this trash mechanic you're unable to implement with your style of level geometry.

 

You're really citing a video of a guy standing behind a pillar with no los to enemies to then claim Pillage's LoS is broken, when no enemies meet the criteria for the ability to hit anyway, as your source for LoS being a trash mechanic?... ok?... please tell me you're joking?

Edited April 11 by Stormandreas

[vixenpixel]

3 hours ago, NeDesitVirtus said:

The "slog" as you describe it is a mindset and perspective. Not to say there isn't considerable grind in this game because there is. Like doing 3 hrs of Tyana Pass for a Rank 5 Arcane Steadfast. It's a slog but worth doing if you don't want to spend plat on someone farming it for you. Then that slog becomes an investment. 

Just wanted to say that I noticed today my steadfast was just r3 and recalled burning out on the citrine arcane farm. I went to Loid in the lab area and did the whole arcane dissolution thingamajig and from trading the vosfor and credits got it to r5 in about 20 attempts. So about 1m credits and I dunno 8k vosfor or something. That took me about 3 minutes compared to the Tyana passa farm which would have probably been 3 hours tbh.

[vixenpixel]

1 hour ago, OnestarMike said:

Your arguments have been personal attacks and “just use guns lul”. You’re dancing around the main point of my argument which is that it doesn’t feel good to play, and the solution that DE presented doesn’t solve the issue, and doesn’t address the reasons they stated for nerfing the ability in the first place (range and damage nuke). We’ve given suggestions that a majority of people agree with to remove the bad LoS restriction, but then we’ve got people like you saying “get good lul” in a freaking pve game. It’s not the ability to nuke the room. It’s the ability itself not doing what it’s supposed to because LoS is and will always be a garbage limit for Dante’s tragedy when his design encourages him to move around and prime targets.

I came back to Warframe like I usually do after doing couple month breaks, and playing release Dante was the first time I had felt seriously re-engaged with the game because of how well everything worked. I was getting tired of messing around with guns all the time and the other frames that I like are often reduced to tank frames when taking them to steel path (looking at you wisp 4). The changes to Dante’s have put a major thorn in the side of this characters design when LoS denies me fun combos due to how many objects and how mobile the game is be design.

so yes this small change has taken the wind out of sails and now I don’t want to play the game because of it. And your solution is basically “sucks to suck byeeee”. Doesn’t seem very conducive to the longevity of the game when you tell other players to go suck it and quit whining about something I bet you don’t even care about. Sounds more to me like you want this game to die and you feed off of DE’s mistakes cheering them on to fail when all we want is to have a good gameplay experience.

We’ve given 3 main solutions that can fix this problem easily where everyone is at least somewhat happy, but you’re out here wanting people to quit the game, what even is that? You’re the person that doesn’t belong here when you cheer on other people’s frustrations. It’s toxic and makes you look terrible. But if this is Warframe community now then damn I guess I just took the wrong pulse on this place and I’ll see myself out. 

I feel like the way he was designed it was more like a situation where if they dont nerf this one ability they might as well rename game to Dante. It is literally an everything-frame. Buffing, tanking, weapon platform, ability nuking. If they didn't change it to LoS frames like equinox that has a similar 4 might as well be put in the trash. From my pov, not doing anything about the tragedy ability would have been the worst design choice ever and adding LoS to it actually enriches the gameplay as you now have to actually position to nuke properly while the damage potential remains the same. 

[Digital_Malz]

12 minutes ago, vixenpixel said:

I feel like the way he was designed it was more like a situation where if they dont nerf this one ability they might as well rename game to Dante. It is literally an everything-frame. Buffing, tanking, weapon platform, ability nuking. If they didn't change it to LoS frames like equinox that has a similar 4 might as well be put in the trash. From my pov, not doing anything about the tragedy ability would have been the worst design choice ever and adding LoS to it actually enriches the gameplay as you now have to actually position to nuke properly while the damage potential remains the same. 

I understand your point, but it seems you fail to see one important point: Tragedy’s absurd dmg is due to it “exploding” previous procs. Before nerf, you already had to position yourself as you said. You did this because you needed to prime enemies, either using Dark Verse (which always had LoS) or weapons. Before nerf, you had to strategically prime groups of enemies and then, only then, use Tragedy to finish them all.

Now, with LoS in Tragedy, Dante is totally dumb. There’s no more option of strategically priming and exploding procs, because you can only cast tragedy in front of you, and pray there’s not a mosquito between you and the enemy. Dante now is only a stupid energy consuming of 3/3/4. You run around casting this combo, because you have to immediately explode procs, otherwise enemies will go out LoS. Is it funny? Maybe. But it’s so time and energy consuming, that my Felarx will do the same job faster. What’s the point in a Wizard whose primary weapon is more efficient than his spells?

Tragedy was already behind TWO Dark Verses LoS 😉

Edited April 11 by Digital_Malz

[OnestarMike]

15 minutes ago, vixenpixel said:

I feel like the way he was designed it was more like a situation where if they dont nerf this one ability they might as well rename game to Dante. It is literally an everything-frame. Buffing, tanking, weapon platform, ability nuking. If they didn't change it to LoS frames like equinox that has a similar 4 might as well be put in the trash. From my pov, not doing anything about the tragedy ability would have been the worst design choice ever and adding LoS to it actually enriches the gameplay as you now have to actually position to nuke properly while the damage potential remains the same. 

I get the feeling but wouldn’t we want to bring up other frames to have a similar cohesive experience? I could see an equinox rework doing wonders for that frame. Look what happened to hydroid he’s doing fantastic now and is probably the closest vibe I get to having fun with abilities these days.

I feel like more or less steel path is balanced, and if there are frames that are not performing well in it we should be bringing those up. I understand the fear of power creep but we cant just bat something down when everyone was enjoying the Warframe. If everyone liked what Dante was doing, I think it speaks to a greater cause of bringing up other Warframe to have similar cohesive and fun experiences, even if they’re niche.

[vixenpixel]

3 hours ago, OnestarMike said:

I get the feeling but wouldn’t we want to bring up other frames to have a similar cohesive experience? I could see an equinox rework doing wonders for that frame. Look what happened to hydroid he’s doing fantastic now and is probably the closest vibe I get to having fun with abilities these days.

I feel like more or less steel path is balanced, and if there are frames that are not performing well in it we should be bringing those up. I understand the fear of power creep but we cant just bat something down when everyone was enjoying the Warframe. If everyone liked what Dante was doing, I think it speaks to a greater cause of bringing up other Warframe to have similar cohesive and fun experiences, even if they’re niche.

Alot of people also used console-command DDQD in Doom to become invulnerable. I wouldn't be so quick to base your entire argument on what some people have fun with. That said, I'm sorry you don't enjoy the frame anymore.

I would personally have preferred to stay out of discussions about the technicalities of the frame. I'm really not an expert on it but the level the discussion about it was at made me feel ashamed to call myself a tenno. You know what I mean? I had to represent the grownups. 🙃

Granted, not everybody acted like that, but from the snippets I saw, it was foul. 🤢

I agree that Equinox isn't in a good spot. She is entirely dependant on subsume to function if you want to use her 4 to nuke in any meaningful capacity. She has some awesome augments that I wish was just part of the abilities and if they made that happen it would actually go a long way to make her playable because the modding on equinox is tight to say the least. That said, she has some cool stuff going for her. She is like a proto-frame for things they later doubled down on like vulnerability debuff. She also has a weakness ability thing that is a terrible energy hog and with how the game is played 2024, absolutely meaningless. She's like a frame where DE went "Lets just test a bunch of things". Meanwhile Dante is the future. 11 years of ingenuity put into a single monstrous archmage. 😄

[vixenpixel]

4 hours ago, Digital_Malz said:

I understand your point, but it seems you fail to see one important point: Tragedy’s absurd dmg is due to it “exploding” previous procs. Before nerf, you already had to position yourself as you said. You did this because you needed to prime enemies, either using Dark Verse (which always had LoS) or weapons. Before nerf, you had to strategically prime groups of enemies and then, only then, use Tragedy to finish them all.

Now, with LoS in Tragedy, Dante is totally dumb. There’s no more option of strategically priming and exploding procs, because you can only cast tragedy in front of you, and pray there’s not a mosquito between you and the enemy. Dante now is only a stupid energy consuming of 3/3/4. You run around casting this combo, because you have to immediately explode procs, otherwise enemies will go out LoS. Is it funny? Maybe. But it’s so time and energy consuming, that my Felarx will do the same job faster. What’s the point in a Wizard whose primary weapon is more efficient than his spells?

Tragedy was already behind TWO Dark Verses LoS 😉

Ah, I see what you mean. But Felarx? I can't stand weapons with 0.5 riven disposition...

[vFlitz]

10 hours ago, Nekomian said:

I mean for you maybe, but some people would be very annoyed if your squad mate just gets 50 enemy kills every 20s, not letting them get any stacks on molt augmented or any other "on kill" condition. It had the potential to be very disruptive with a combination of 80m+ range and no other conditional check. You could be in another room fighting enemies entirely on your own and a Dante from a tileset over could kill the enemies you're trying to get stacks on.

This is a fictional problem pretty much as chances of it actually happening are close to 0. Unless it was a premade squad strategy, in which cases all parties are on board. In a solo/public setting there would be absolutely no reason to mod Dante for that much range, because even without LoS Tragedy can't get much done without status to detonate and Dante has no means of applying status on such a broad scale that it'd be possible to capitalize on over 200% range.

Not to even mention that a player separating from the team by entire 80 meters doesn't really deserve any sympathy because they're the one being disruptive by splitting enemy spawns.

[Nekomian]

21 minutes ago, vFlitz said:

This is a fictional problem pretty much as chances of it actually happening are close to 0. Unless it was a premade squad strategy, in which cases all parties are on board.

Tons of players report being tired of nuke builds / AoE meta, and this one would be no exception:

I could post more, but this is by no means an uncommon sentiment to have surrounding this game, especially in regular star chart missions (where you don't even need any status on enemies to one shot them, and where it would be most disruptive towards / affecting newer players). Considering you can just buy dante for 350p from the market, this is entirely possible and, given more than a few days had passed, people would've complained about it as they already do for other high range frames. Over 200% range isn't even that difficult, overextended + any range mod is sufficient, and it benefits his 2, 3, and all effects of his 4 greatly, without sacrificing much power strength (since molt augmented + transient fortitude + blind rage + precision intensify are more than sufficient for ability strength). Roar subsumed over Noctua amplifies this even more so.

44 minutes ago, vFlitz said:

Not to even mention that a player separating from the team by entire 80 meters doesn't really deserve any sympathy because they're the one being disruptive by splitting enemy spawns.

If a Dante is rushing ahead, killing all enemies in the entire map on an exterm or capture mission, it's no different from the prior issues with titania thermal sunder that people were begging to be nerfed. It's disruptive and provides a boring walking simulator gameplay for players who might not be quite that fast, are new, or have specific gameplay mechanics.

DE quickly saw it as a potential issue and addressed it - it's fine not to like that, but there's plenty of justification for enforcing LoS checks to keep certain players from overwhelmingly dominating public sessions in such ways.

[Shinoyami65]

2 hours ago, Nekomian said:

Tons of players report being tired of nuke builds / AoE meta, and this one would be no exception:

 

DE quickly saw it as a potential issue and addressed it - it's fine not to like that, but there's plenty of justification for enforcing LoS checks to keep certain players from overwhelmingly dominating public sessions in such ways.

That still doesn't address why those frames have been allowed to maintain their overwhelmingly dominating abilities for years but Dante is not, and as far as we know no nerfs are inbound for the other AoE meta weapons/frames. As for rushing ahead, Dante is also much slower than Titania, Volt, Gauss or Wukong due to lacking innate mobility and having a lower sprint speed. 

It also doesn't explain why LoS was added when they could have removed/reduced the base damage of the ability (thereby preventing it from nuking at low levels without primers) or decreased the range to be line with other frames, which would have had the same effect without adding the extra level of clunk and bugginess LoS has. This was even directly mentioned in the last DevShorts when removing LoS but reducing the range was floated as an alternative. 

Edited April 12 by Shinoyami65