Some power drecreeping would be greatly welcomed

[kerozen666]

I have been playing since 2016, properly starting by the time sand of inaros would ship the frame that wouldBecome my mains for many years. In those years i've player, ther eis one thing i never failed to notice, and it was the slow but constant powercreep. back then sedna and it's lvl 35+ enemies were "the high levels". it's a great change to today where we now have content with lvl 400 enemies. However, with our rise in power that allows such content to exist also cause older equipment to strongly fall off, become completly unviable unless thrown through multiple loops, Warframes that were so beloved falling off and needing rework to do content they were never originally designed to tackle

All this to say, The game could use some power decreeping. the recent change and limitation put on the subsumed variant of nourish and eclipse turned out great, and i wish we will see more of this. It is obvious that the playerbase is now used to it's power, and it's obviously impossible to go back to 2016 level of power. Howerver, it is possible to touch things up to bring back steel path back to it's original goal of being the  powercreep buffer, the place where we test our mastery instead of the breezing through we've been having. This is coming from a long time fan of the game who want to see it continue for years and belive some decreeping would allow more design space for incredible future content

[KitMeHarder]

6 hours ago, kerozen666 said:

I have been playing since 2016, properly starting by the time sand of inaros would ship the frame that wouldBecome my mains for many years. In those years i've player, ther eis one thing i never failed to notice, and it was the slow but constant powercreep. back then sedna and it's lvl 35+ enemies were "the high levels". it's a great change to today where we now have content with lvl 400 enemies.

That's not the game, that's just you being a new player. 

• Sorties were released in 2015, that's level 100 right there.
• The old void key system that relics replaced encouraged long endurance runs, as you could get more rewards from the same one key.
• There was even a joke alert/event where DE had players face level 9999 enemies.
• Etc...

6 hours ago, kerozen666 said:

Warframes that were so beloved falling off and needing rework to do content they were never originally designed to tackle

9 times out of 10 they sucked on release, just like Caliban sucks despite being a 2021 (basically 2022) frame.

• Inaros' passive and Devour were just as worthless on release as they were when he was reworked. And Sandstorm was just as counterintuitive.
• Nezha used to be nothing more than a straight downgrade to Rhino.
• Hydroid was the same clucky poor scaling frame he always was, reliant on his loot augment to even be considered at all. And the moment Khora got her's, the community immediately dropped him, despite him having a better loot chance (that is just how clunky his tentacles were).
• Etc...

6 hours ago, kerozen666 said:

the recent change and limitation put on the subsumed variant of nourish and eclipse turned out great

I don't see how DE completely dumpstering (helminth) light Eclipse was "great"? It's effectively worthless now, having a -85% reduction in power compared to Mirage's version. To put that into perspective, it'd need to be buffed by +567% to match Mirage. All that change did was force more people to use Roar and Nourish.

6 hours ago, kerozen666 said:

Howerver, it is possible to touch things up to bring back steel path back to it's original goal of being the  powercreep buffer, the place where we test our mastery instead of the breezing through we've been having.

If you think this about release day Steel Path, then this is just you being an inexperienced player again (which is fine, progression-based RPGs are always the hardest when you're "leveling up"). But Steel Path was never something a player that knew what they were doing would have trouble with, there was just less variety when you played at that level compared to today. (And to put it out there, no PvE game you've played for 8 years will be challenging.)

I also don't know how you expect us to be nerfed enough for Steel Path to be a "place where we test our mastery", yet you already brought up that we have to do Deep Archs with level 400 enemies now. How would we be expected to do those if base SP is supposed to be "hard" now?

[ShogunGunshow]

The last time they tried to rein in power with the ammo economy changes they undermined it just a few months later by releasing garbage like the incarnon torid.

I think the new team at this point has pretty much given up on providing challenge outside of randomized content, and has settled on giving players their desired dopamine factories, as long as it doesn't break things too hard. Just riding it out until the game completely falls apart from creep in 5 years.

[kerozen666]

2 hours ago, ShogunGunshow said:

The last time they tried to rein in power with the ammo economy changes they undermined it just a few months later by releasing garbage like the incarnon torid.

I think the new team at this point has pretty much given up on providing challenge outside of randomized content, and has settled on giving players their desired dopamine factories, as long as it doesn't break things too hard. Just riding it out until the game completely falls apart from creep in 5 years.

incarnon are legit the only one of the only few thingsthat comes to mind from the Reb era that was just pure powercrrep. like, if you look at weapon release other than them, everything has been very tame, especially signature weapons kinda getting held back in preperation for their primed variant later. I think it still very much possible to see numbers getting tweaked again, to at least stabilize the game like it kinda was pre steel path (when you launch a game mode so overscaled you decide to introduce power creep to patch it instead of just lowering the scaling...). Like, with the 2 big WoL and balance update we got with dante and dagath, i would not be surprised if they start doing more major changes like what they did with melee a couple of time. 

I would also imagine that pablo would be very much interested in that kind of decreeping, not only is he the one that see his work become obsolete (looking at the vauban rework), but also because the constant reworking take some time away from new content, who already is split into two by sp and starchart both needing to be balanced

[Voltage]

1 hour ago, kerozen666 said:

incarnon are legit the only one of the only few thingsthat comes to mind from the Reb era that was just pure powercrrep. like, if you look at weapon release other than them, everything has been very tame, especially signature weapons kinda getting held back in preperation for their primed variant later. I think it still very much possible to see numbers getting tweaked again, to at least stabilize the game like it kinda was pre steel path (when you launch a game mode so overscaled you decide to introduce power creep to patch it instead of just lowering the scaling...). Like, with the 2 big WoL and balance update we got with dante and dagath, i would not be surprised if they start doing more major changes like what they did with melee a couple of time. 

I would also imagine that pablo would be very much interested in that kind of decreeping, not only is he the one that see his work become obsolete (looking at the vauban rework), but also because the constant reworking take some time away from new content, who already is split into two by sp and starchart both needing to be balanced

I mean, Overguard and Shield Gating changes had massive implications to the entire arsenal for powercreep. Zariman Arcanes added straight up power stats like a mod. We have Incarnons, Archon Shards / Emerald Archon Shards, Melee Arcanes, double Amp Arcanes, Sentient Surge for Ocucor, the direction of Warframe kits like Dante, etc.

The power is certainly fun as always, but the game has been ramping up player power to such an unmanageable balance level that we now have to deal with really awful mechanics like Damage Attenuation, enemies with armor that completely ignore armor stripping, Overguard being used quite liberally, and other mechanics. Warframe has always had powercreep over the years, but not to such a degree that instead of nerfing something problematic, we get whole new mechanics that invalidate much of the Warframe roster, or encourage the player to search for the obscure gear choices that completely bypass the crappy mechanics. There's more to the story than simply observing one part, and it's a multi-layered issue that spans many years. It has nothing to do with who the creative director was at the time. The dev to player relationship, the way content has been molded towards accessibility, and several other factors led us here. 

I really hate this conversation of the "Steve vs Reb era" as if one is clearly superior or different from the other. The game's history has been trial and error, buffs, nerfs, unchecked powercreep for years from single loadouts, etc. since forever. Incarnon Torid is no different than Synoid Simulor Mirage, Maiming Strike, or whatever previous flavor that existed at a point in time. Sure, at some point it will fall apart, but that's just the "off the rails" nature Warframe has made a name for itself with. In terms of "state of gameplay", nothing's really changed. Players have always gravitated towards the latest powercreep options for the newest content. Things like Nourish or Torid are prominent because they are tried and true.

The only noticeable difference I've seen with the game over the years is the monetization. Other than that, the experimental, powercrept, solo-with-NPC-teammates gameplay has been like this for a very long time. I still find the game fun, even when missions sometimes feel like you're either doing the whole mission or someone else is playing it for you. The gear collection and possible loadouts are always fun to me. I'm also in that crowd that genuinely likes randomized loadouts as I appreciate my completion of builds and are pushed to playing loadouts I would not normally choose. It really makes me appreciate the 9 years of updates I have experienced and earned rewards from.

Edited April 14 by Voltage

[(PSN)rexis12]

If they want to reign in power creep, reign in everything else around it then. 

Don't let enemy armor scale so high that a Basic Heavy Enemy has a Higher EHP than a field boss*. Don't let enemy damage go so high that the community decided that constant invul was the best way to survive in high level content. Don't let enemies have mechanics to encourage interactive gameplay, but then slap on another layer of HP that just pushes the DPS that's the reason for the power creep in the first place.

Seriously I'd actually agree with the Overguard causing issues, if not for the fact that a Max Primed Redirection Harrow with Parasitic Armor and constant Life Steal is LESS effective at base Steel Path despite having exponentially higher EHP than regular Harrow builds. 

*Seriously the fact that a Heavy Gunner has 10x the health of an Acolyte is insane. Imagine playing L4D and a Basic Infected has more health than a Tank. 

[kerozen666]

50 minutes ago, Voltage said:

I mean, Overguard and Shield Gating changes had massive implications to the entire arsenal for powercreep. Zariman Arcanes added straight up power stats like a mod. We have Incarnons, Archon Shards / Emerald Archon Shards, Melee Arcanes, double Amp Arcanes, Sentient Surge for Ocucor, the direction of Warframe kits like Dante, etc.

The power is certainly fun as always, but the game has been ramping up player power to such an unmanageable balance level that we now have to deal with really awful mechanics like Damage Attenuation, enemies with armor that completely ignore armor stripping, Overguard being used quite liberally, and other mechanics. Warframe has always had powercreep over the years, but not to such a degree that instead of nerfing something problematic, we get whole new mechanics that invalidate much of the Warframe roster, or encourage the player to search for the obscure gear choices that completely bypass the crappy mechanics. There's more to the story than simply observing one part, and it's a multi-layered issue that spans many years. It has nothing to do with who the creative director was at the time. The dev to player relationship, the way content has been molded towards accessibility, and several other factors led us here. 

I really hate this conversation of the "Steve vs Reb era" as if one is clearly superior or different from the other. The game's history has been trial and error, buffs, nerfs, unchecked powercreep for years from single loadouts, etc. since forever. Incarnon Torid is no different than Synoid Simulor Mirage, Maiming Strike, or whatever previous flavor that existed at a point in time. Sure, at some point it will fall apart, but that's just the "off the rails" nature Warframe has made a name for itself with. In terms of "state of gameplay", nothing's really changed. Players have always gravitated towards the latest powercreep options for the newest content. Things like Nourish or Torid are prominent because they are tried and true.

The only noticeable difference I've seen with the game over the years is the monetization. Other than that, the experimental, powercrept, solo-with-NPC-teammates gameplay has been like this for a very long time. I still find the game fun, even when missions sometimes feel like you're either doing the whole mission or someone else is playing it for you. The gear collection and possible loadouts are always fun to me. I'm also in that crowd that genuinely likes randomized loadouts as I appreciate my completion of builds and are pushed to playing loadouts I would not normally choose. It really makes me appreciate the 9 years of updates I have experienced and earned rewards from.

there is deffinitively a difference in the approach reb and pablo are taking vs what steve and scott were going. Steve was a director that kept constant;ly going forward with new ideas and concept, and scott was someone who was very much into the straightforwardand simple design. Reb was community manager, and it shows since what she's been doing and acting is very much what someone who spent year dealing with us would go, notably in the expansion of what's already present rather than a whole new thing each year. Pablo is similar, he's the guy that had to feal with redoing what's already been done just to deal with creeping, including his own work. he does his fancy synergy style frames where subsumes feel unwanted, and so on

sure, there's alwayas been a pattern of constant creeping, but for real, it's not as consistant as you seem to beleive. sure, new powerfull stuff has arrived since zariman, but it's mostly been sidegrades, new opportunities. like, compare the arcanes and mods that have come out since then. the steel path arcanes? simple additive stuff that is simple and effective. galvi mods? same. Arcanes of the zariman and after? all things that fundamentally alter how you aproach your modding. recent mods? same things, all alternative and nothing that is purely superior. ok, shards have been an increase, but... again, look at what they ultimatly are, microadjustment that.... you guessed it, made moding more varied. Our modding power has been stable since zariman and the archons, and our weapons since duviri. 

[kerozen666]

47 minutes ago, (PSN)rexis12 said:

If they want to reign in power creep, reign in everything else around it then. 

Don't let enemy armor scale so high that a Basic Heavy Enemy has a Higher EHP than a field boss*. Don't let enemy damage go so high that the community decided that constant invul was the best way to survive in high level content. Don't let enemies have mechanics to encourage interactive gameplay, but then slap on another layer of HP that just pushes the DPS that's the reason for the power creep in the first place.

Seriously I'd actually agree with the Overguard causing issues, if not for the fact that a Max Primed Redirection Harrow with Parasitic Armor and constant Life Steal is LESS effective at base Steel Path despite having exponentially higher EHP than regular Harrow builds. 

*Seriously the fact that a Heavy Gunner has 10x the health of an Acolyte is insane. Imagine playing L4D and a Basic Infected has more health than a Tank. 

oh, absolutly agree. to me, the way steel path was shipped has been horrible and is causing the current issues. like, the concept is great, but double scaling by making everything 100 lvl higher AND have 2.5X multiplier on defensive stat is terrible, especially if you then immediatly need to introduce more power creep in your powercreep buffer mode because the guns aren't strong enough (we love our galvi mods and acolite arcanes, but i wish they didn't have to exist)

[KitMeHarder]

6 hours ago, kerozen666 said:

I would also imagine that pablo would be very much interested in that kind of decreeping

You'd be wrong IMO. Quite Shy deleted her interview, but Pablo has gone on record saying that he values "power fantasy" more than forcing challenging content. 

And I agree, as like I said in my first post, PvE games are never challenging in the end (especially after 8 year), regardless of the genre. So I'd rather the game be fun and engaging, compared to a toxic cesspit of constant nerfs that never really achieve their goal.

5 hours ago, Voltage said:

The power is certainly fun as always, but the game has been ramping up player power to such an unmanageable balance level that we now have to deal with really awful mechanics like Damage Attenuation, enemies with armor that completely ignore armor stripping, Overguard being used quite liberally, and other mechanics.

But why are (95% of) nerfs better, compared to the game getting harder? IMO stuff like armor strip "immune" necramechs are a fun problem to work around, as apposed to a straight up depressing nerf from the devs. Not to mention, that means my gear still preforms normally everywhere else in the game, so even better.

Same thing with overguard. I'd rather something like Deep Archs have a modifier that gives all enemies overguard, compared to Dante's Tragedy getting LoS nerfed. Having to problem solve to account for the OG is fun, while LoS additions are not. (Though I agree OG shouldn't completely invalidate CC, whether that be my idea of having non-helminth 4th abilities be exempt, the common community idea of every time a CC is applied a percent of overguard is removed, etc....)

[Voltage]

4 hours ago, KitMeHarder said:

But why are (95% of) nerfs better, compared to the game getting harder? IMO stuff like armor strip "immune" necramechs are a fun problem to work around, as apposed to a straight up depressing nerf from the devs. Not to mention, that means my gear still preforms normally everywhere else in the game, so even better.

Same thing with overguard. I'd rather something like Deep Archs have a modifier that gives all enemies overguard, compared to Dante's Tragedy getting LoS nerfed. Having to problem solve to account for the OG is fun, while LoS additions are not. (Though I agree OG shouldn't completely invalidate CC, whether that be my idea of having non-helminth 4th abilities be exempt, the common community idea of every time a CC is applied a percent of overguard is removed, etc....)

Because there are more options as a result. The game would still be easy if we reeled in power a bit on some outliers in different departments.

What you mention on CC is more of what I'm talking about. Deep Archimedea is quite fun, and I like the modifiers aspect. What I don't like is mechanics like Damage Attenuation or Overguard where you're asked to homogenize your loadout to do the same thing everyone else's does in terms of either single target damage (attenuation), or overall dps output (overguard). The only time you're rewarded for problem solving is when you bypass the mechanic entirely, such as bringing Trinity to the new Entrati Disruption. That's cool and all, except when you realize how little gear choices are the result there.

This is also why I appreciate the randomized loadouts, because even though most stuff is built the same now, being encouraged to pick a set of gear from a list asks you to step outside your comfort zone to make a loadout work. That's fun for me, for the precise reason a lot of people dislike it.

[KitMeHarder]

13 minutes ago, Voltage said:

That's cool and all, except when you realize how little gear choices are the result there.

Thanks for the reply. Though this is only true for each specific example. When you look at the game as a whole, it's very varied.

• Trinity might be what you consider meta for entrati disruption
• But then Chroma is meta for Profit Taker
• And Protea is meta for something else
• Then Knell is meta here
• The Pyrana is meta there
• Etc...

And even then in cases like Trin, she doesn't really even kill faster than countless other options unless you're doing a true endurance run.

16 minutes ago, Voltage said:

where you're asked to homogenize your loadout to do the same thing everyone else's does in terms of either single target damage (attenuation)

Modern damage attenuation technically does what you're asking for. Everything is equally meta, because everything is more-or-less equally shafted. And while I could see some other points you could bring up against DA, it technically achieves what you want from this one.

25 minutes ago, Voltage said:

or overall dps output (overguard)

I think that's just because DE was too heavy-handed compared to stuff like Nullifiers (which I largely think are in a good spot). Would you still feel the same way if one of the purposed changes in my post was added?

28 minutes ago, Voltage said:

because even though most stuff is built the same now

I never understood this point. My Latron incarnon and Vectis prime are built basically the same way, but they play nothing like one another. Mods are just base stats to buff what are already completely unique weapons.

[KIREEK]

I actually would enjoy more power creep, new shards, more range mods, new permanent buffs on your warframe, etc.

[Lichformed]

On 2024-04-13 at 9:18 AM, KitMeHarder said:

9 times out of 10 they sucked on release, just like Caliban sucks despite being a 2021 (basically 2022) frame.

Caliban does not suck though, he just plays fair

Yes in the world of Revenant and Dante where immortality and just ignoring core balance mechanics like self-stagger he does "suck"

But his kit has fair shield gating, one of the best tools for armor removal, damage enhancement and an easy slot to play around with Helminth

He can solo Netracells with an active playstyle pretty comfortably, thing is Dante can do it with 4 mods, no potato installed and standing still

Caliban is a well designed, well balanced frame in a game where you can just ignore half of the skill ceiling by just picking one of the handful frames that don't play "fair"

Edited April 14 by Lichformed

[Voltage]

5 minutes ago, KitMeHarder said:

Thanks for the reply. Though this is only true for each specific example. When you look at the game as a whole, it's very varied.

• Trinity might be what you consider meta for entrati disruption
• But then Chroma is meta for Profit Taker
• And Protea is meta for something else
• Then Knell is meta here
• The Pyrana is meta there
• Etc...

And even then in cases like Trin, she doesn't really even kill faster than countless other options unless you're doing a true endurance run.

It's hard for me to explain, but while you're absolutely correct, the way you arrive to an efficiency pick can feel very different.

13 minutes ago, KitMeHarder said:

Modern damage attenuation technically does what you're asking for. Everything is equally meta, because everything is more-or-less equally shafted. And while I could see some other points you could bring up against DA, it technically achieves what you want from this one.

I think that's just because DE was too heavy-handed compared to stuff like Nullifiers (which I largely think are in a good spot). Would you still feel the same way if one of the purposed changes in my post was added?

Most of the endgame fun I have (since my account is overly powerful/wealthy compared to what content is designed for) is through builds and specifically Riven Mods when it comes to weapons. Mechanics like Damage Attenuation feel bad for me because it's trying to artificially bridge the gap between players who aren't using good builds, and me who's overperforming. The result ends up being that I get punished more for the better build I have, while a player with a crappier build is not being encouraged to improve their loadout. That just sucks the fun straight out of content, and I'm only left to using whatever bypasses the mechanic entirely. For a time it was the Kuva Hek/Incarnons on the Archons, then it was FPS limiting (which by the way completely killed Gargoyle's Cry for me and I barely farmed over a single set of Arcane Energize, because the mode just felt like crap when you had to make the game run like garbage to get a faster mission time), and now it's whatever players discover next that will inevitably be fixed.

Maybe I just sound like "old man yells at cloud". I'm a really old player who's far past my personal peak in the game. What hooked me to Warframe was the movement (rip Void Dash), and what kept me staying between when I started (2015) and ~2019 was the teamplay. Since 2020, I stick around because I like my position as a player in both account power/wealth and community significance. I don't have the time or patience with a different live service game to sink another 10 years in something (especially with how predatory things are nowadays) to reach the same effect I have here. I still obviously like Warframe, but the direction of gear and enemy creep has made the game mechanically stale to approach for quite a number of years now. There is an entire generation of playerbase that enjoys this approach though, so I'm not one to claim the game would be better by regressing. I just find this current gear situation unfortunate. I do really like Elite Archimedea though, as I said prior. It's fun and brings back some of those old vibes, especially when you need to make a squad of varying loadouts jive together.

[KitMeHarder]

5 minutes ago, Lichformed said:

Caliban does not suck though, he just plays fair

On a relative scale, he does suck. And he sucks even past that point as well. He is one of the two worst frames that have little going for them.

7 minutes ago, Lichformed said:

He can solo Netracells with an active playstyle pretty comfortably

You can make anything usable in this game, but things need to be worth using. There's a difference.

8 minutes ago, Lichformed said:

But his kit has fair shield gating, one of the best tools for armor removal, damage enhancement and an easy slot to play around with Helminth

You can make anything sound good by extrapolating it in this game. But some things are not good, especially on a relative scale. 

• Passive - Not strong enough without adaptation and worthless with it.
• 1 - The worst ability in the game that you conveniently gave a free pass by it being a "easy helminth slot". (Guess what? Resonator is also a helminth slot despite being one of the best CC abilities in the game.)
• 2 - It's almost always a waste of time and energy to debuff a singular group of enemies in WF. The debuff is also small and has one of the worst CC types.
• 3 - 150 energy for what is often just worse than what Protea does for 25. Minor differences aside.
• 4 - FS has long since been a good armor strip. It used to be the one point Caliban kinda had, but I can list at least a half-a-dozen abilities better then it. It's high energy, low range, does nothing else beside defense strip, etc...

12 minutes ago, Lichformed said:

Caliban is a well designed, well balanced frame in a game where you can just ignore half of the skill ceiling by just picking one of the handful frames that don't play "fair"

You're not going to convince me that Caliban is good by demonizing frames that actually have good designs. "Caliban is good, it's just other frames are too good." Everything is relative. There is always going to be a last place.

In the same way I could put Caliban in Darktide 40k and he'd be a God amongst men... But this is Warframe and he sucks in WF, doing nothing (noteworthy) better in part or wholistically than any other frame.

[KitMeHarder]

53 minutes ago, Voltage said:

The result ends up being that I get punished more for the better build I have, while a player with a crappier build is not being encouraged to improve their loadout. That just sucks the fun straight out of content

I agree. But instead of nerfs, I'd rather they just let us "vaporize" bosses. Other modern progression-based RPGs do just that, like Borderlands 3. And off the top of my head, events like Orphix Venom did it as well and they were a blast IMO. But that's considered "disruptive gameplay" for new players/the anti-power fantasy crowd.

IMO the best way to have the best of both worlds is for this game to have two different public ques. One for "fast pace" play and one for "slow pace" play. That way the community can can choose for themselves what kind of experience they want, and new players won't be caught in the crossfire. (I'm being kinda vague because I intend to make a whole thread on this at some point, so if it's not that clear what I mean, feel free to ask.)

Edited April 14 by KitMeHarder

[Lichformed]

8 minutes ago, KitMeHarder said:

You're not going to convince me that Caliban is good by demonizing frames that actually have good designs.

The meta frames are not designed well, especially if they just forego systems made to balance aspects of the game

[KitMeHarder]

Just now, Lichformed said:

The meta frames are not designed well, especially if they just forego systems made to balance aspects of the game

We can keep going down the looong list, but why is a frame like Gauss "not designed well"?

[Lichformed]

2 minutes ago, KitMeHarder said:

We can keep going down the looong list, but why is a frame like Gauss "not designed well"?

Gauss is meta? Sure designed well but for a reason I said meta frames are not, he's definitely better than Caliban but isn't outright invinsible or immune to mechanics straight out of the box without a good mod set to back him up like Revenant and Dante and definitely isn't bringing anything to the group on a similar level either

And if helminth is too convenient to apply, you could scrutinize sunder as a an inefficient group debuffing and stripping tool when you could just Tharros instead

There are plenty of frames that outshine others in the middle-class of frames, but meta wouldn't be just "A-S tiers" as a whole

[WindShadow970]

1 hour ago, Lichformed said:

Caliban does not suck though, he just plays fair

Mag definitely plays fair and she doesn't suck, Caliban is a frame without a plan of any kind

1 hour ago, Lichformed said:

an easy slot to play around with Helminth

When an ability offers so little to a kit that anything else would be better, that's just an awful ability fullstop.

1 hour ago, Lichformed said:

thing is Dante can do it with 4 mods, no potato installed and standing still

Proof, particularly what 4 miracle mods are used? (and I assume you only use Dante and nothing else external like weapons, otherwise I see this as a gross overexaggeration)

1 hour ago, Lichformed said:

Caliban is a well designed, well balanced frame

What would I consider well designed and balanced? Harrow, Ivara, Citrine, Garuda, Nidus, Gauss (I'd put Dante here too but his balance is all over the place at the moment). No dead abilities, they have plans of action and they have cohesive kits. Caliban is none of these things. It's fine to like a frame but let's not be delusional about its flaws.

[kerozen666]

8 hours ago, KitMeHarder said:

You'd be wrong IMO. Quite Shy deleted her interview, but Pablo has gone on record saying that he values "power fantasy" more than forcing challenging content. 

except power fantasy isn't unlimited powercreep. it's still something you got to balance lest it becomes extremly boring, on top or an enormous problem for future devellopment. Like, look at how many frames are pointed at for reworks, and it even include some of pablo's work, who he would have to redo AGAIN to keep up. 

Blowing up rooms can be done in a controlled manner rather than just let it get out of control

[ShogunGunshow]

15 hours ago, kerozen666 said:

incarnon are legit the only one of the only few thingsthat comes to mind from the Reb era that was just pure powercrrep. like, if you look at weapon release other than them, everything has been very tame, especially signature weapons kinda getting held back in preperation for their primed variant later. I think it still very much possible to see numbers getting tweaked again, to at least stabilize the game like it kinda was pre steel path (when you launch a game mode so overscaled you decide to introduce power creep to patch it instead of just lowering the scaling...). Like, with the 2 big WoL and balance update we got with dante and dagath, i would not be surprised if they start doing more major changes like what they did with melee a couple of time. 

I would also imagine that pablo would be very much interested in that kind of decreeping, not only is he the one that see his work become obsolete (looking at the vauban rework), but also because the constant reworking take some time away from new content, who already is split into two by sp and starchart both needing to be balanced

I think Pablo has stated explicitly on some podcast somewhere that, if he could wave a magic wand to undo the team's previous decisions to put stuff like triple digit increases to critical chance on mods, he would do it.

I wish he could, too. We're at the point where common enemies in Deep Arch have EHP in the millions, with Rogue Necramechs having EHP in the hundreds of millions.

At a certain point, DE might have to do something drastic about our damage, because they're starting to run up against the limits of the game engine. Like, consider Nezha's new damage cap on his augment, and think about how ludicrously, extravagantly high that would have seemed just a few years ago. And I don't want the solution to be "well every enemy past this level has 99.9% damage reduction that you can't strip so, so there." 

[kerozen666]

4 hours ago, Voltage said:

Because there are more options as a result. The game would still be easy if we reeled in power a bit on some outliers in different departments.

What you mention on CC is more of what I'm talking about. Deep Archimedea is quite fun, and I like the modifiers aspect. What I don't like is mechanics like Damage Attenuation or Overguard where you're asked to homogenize your loadout to do the same thing everyone else's does in terms of either single target damage (attenuation), or overall dps output (overguard). The only time you're rewarded for problem solving is when you bypass the mechanic entirely, such as bringing Trinity to the new Entrati Disruption. That's cool and all, except when you realize how little gear choices are the result there.

This is also why I appreciate the randomized loadouts, because even though most stuff is built the same now, being encouraged to pick a set of gear from a list asks you to step outside your comfort zone to make a loadout work. That's fun for me, for the precise reason a lot of people dislike it.

exactly. the concept of random loadout isn't bad when your gear choice is actually quite large. Base duviri is fun because you don't need one of the 5-7 meta weapon or frames to do it. The second things are added that narrow what's really effective, like total CC immunity or Damage attenuation, the randomized stuff becomes annoying. SP circuit is that for me, if i dont get a minimum of good stuff, i just don't jump in because is know i'd just be a hinderance

[kerozen666]

2 minutes ago, ShogunGunshow said:

I think Pablo has stated explicitly on some podcast somewhere that, if he could wave a magic wand to undo the team's previous decisions to put stuff like triple digit increases to critical chance on mods, he would do it.

I wish he could, too. We're at the point where common enemies in Deep Arch have EHP in the millions, with Rogue Necramechs having EHP in the hundreds of millions.

At a certain point, DE might have to do something drastic about our damage, because they're starting to run up against the limits of the game engine. Like, consider Nezha's new damage cap on his augment, and think about how ludicrously, extravagantly high that would have seemed just a few years ago. And I don't want the solution to be "well every enemy past this level has 99.9% damage reduction that you can't strip so, so there." 

honestly, turning the steel path scaling down would be the move to do. it was the move that should have been done when it got implemented, instead of introducing acolyte arcanes and galvi mods. we may not be able to go back to pre SP, but retouching it to stabilize the game would be doable. and doing so would also let pablo swing that want and nerf a few things under the guise of adjustment. and i got high hope, as they seem to be testing the water a lot with those QoL updates like abyss and dante

[vixenpixel]

12 hours ago, KitMeHarder said:

You'd be wrong IMO. Quite Shy deleted her interview, but Pablo has gone on record saying that he values "power fantasy" more than forcing challenging content. 

And I agree, as like I said in my first post, PvE games are never challenging in the end (especially after 8 year), regardless of the genre. So I'd rather the game be fun and engaging, compared to a toxic cesspit of constant nerfs that never really achieve their goal.

But why are (95% of) nerfs better, compared to the game getting harder? IMO stuff like armor strip "immune" necramechs are a fun problem to work around, as apposed to a straight up depressing nerf from the devs. Not to mention, that means my gear still preforms normally everywhere else in the game, so even better.

Same thing with overguard. I'd rather something like Deep Archs have a modifier that gives all enemies overguard, compared to Dante's Tragedy getting LoS nerfed. Having to problem solve to account for the OG is fun, while LoS additions are not. (Though I agree OG shouldn't completely invalidate CC, whether that be my idea of having non-helminth 4th abilities be exempt, the common community idea of every time a CC is applied a percent of overguard is removed, etc....)

Yeah I agree. More end game content that requires full attention. I think they are making alot of good decisions, like forcing you to do 3 missions with limited loadouts and only one life. That's cool. :)

When they dropped archon hunt I immediately wanted more of similar but harder and they delivered that. I don't really care about the "powercreep". I think it's fun. Better make more difficult content than nerfing stuff imo.

Edited April 14 by vixenpixel