Why is CC ineffective on so many enemies?

[PrinzeEugen]

To be fair CC immunity is actually good, it force you to use you brain to identify the priority target.

Even with those CC immunit unit around I can still chilling with Nyx in level 2k defence mission and if it wasn't a Nyx or Vauban there defence target just ganna get delete shocking right ? CC frames save the day.

While many people claimed CC is dead. CC is not dead at all just warframe currently need more brain cells to play now.

When in a excavation mission you as Yareli throwing bubbles gripping every single trush mobs only the threix still rushing toward the excavator non-stop that's the moment your adrenaline gonna pumping up, you know you have to stop that one-punch man or your excavator will turn junk in a single blink and that's the fun coming in for playing game.

[Xzorn]

2 hours ago, PrinzeEugen said:

To be fair CC immunity is actually good, it force you to use you brain to identify the priority target.

Even with those CC immunit unit around I can still chilling with Nyx in level 2k defence mission and if it wasn't a Nyx or Vauban there defence target just ganna get delete shocking right ? CC frames save the day.

While many people claimed CC is dead. CC is not dead at all just warframe currently need more brain cells to play now.

When in a excavation mission you as Yareli throwing bubbles gripping every single trush mobs only the threix still rushing toward the excavator non-stop that's the moment your adrenaline gonna pumping up, you know you have to stop that one-punch man or your excavator will turn junk in a single blink and that's the fun coming in for playing game.

 

Play Nyx without Assimilate like I did for 7 years. Let me know how you feel.

Her rework was appalling to anyone who knew how to play Nyx. They removed her only defense against Nullifers being her Rad procs (same with Vauban). Then added some trash damage buff to Absorb which was a panic button only skill. They had obviously never played Nyx at any notable level and just tried to meta-fy her.

Talking about using your brain. Nyx was a master of controlling the field. Unlike Loki she didn't have invisibility but she ranked the same value as a CC frame because her kit did everything and more. Rad Procs, Confusion, Disarm and Stuns. If you misjudged aggro radius with Nyx you died. If you didn't use Rad to occupy Nullifiers you died. If you didn't Stun AoE enemies like Napalms you probably die. This is Nyx in her purest form. Assimilate was a wasted mod slot if you played her well.

Pre-rework Nyx and Vauban were among the two biggest brain required frames to play. You played perfectly or died.
Now they have to gives these frame some "way out" augment because their kit is no longer reliable no matter how good you are.

[PrinzeEugen]

@XzornWell I guess I'm the new generation of Nyx player who don't have that big of brains to conquer the old still hardcore and need more room to make mistakes.

But the environment nowadays in warframe do give us more room to make mistake and Assimilate is indeed broken in this new environment since it realised a lot of you brain cells from manage shield gate you just walk around invulnerable untill you run into Nullifiers and you deal with them do some shield gating and get back in chill mod is quite belence on consuming your brain cell now.

While Vauban do be a little bit sad but his suck still the best suck in the entire game and you know what when he suck up most of the enemy except eximus and Nullifiers it do bumping up the survivability A LOT while that's a Vauban there all my attention can be concentrate on picking up those who didn't get suck up by him instead of having him suck up everything and we stand there stearing at each other that's much more pleasure to have some actions like now.

Edited April 30 by PrinzeEugen

[PHOSPHATIDYLETHANOLAMINE]

Here I'm dreaming about Rad immune eximuses with pink shields...

[PrinzeEugen]

1小时前 , Xzorn 说:

You played perfectly or died

See that's the old man's talking. Warframe nowadays you're allowed to make mistake and we all know have ability to take risk is much active then reproducing perfect movement.

Hide in a room and zenith star all day long once enemy have a sight on you you die that's history and we don't want it back we want to running around casting abilty do dumb S#&$ and fail a lot but not die.

A warframe nowadays without any CC ability can still survive and that's what make perfect control no longer needed and should be belence out cuz we won't die due to couldn't control everything anymore.

Edited April 30 by PrinzeEugen

[Xzorn]

5 hours ago, PrinzeEugen said:

See that's the old man's talking. Warframe nowadays you're allowed to make mistake and we all know have ability to take risk is much active then reproducing perfect movement.

Hide in a room and zenith star all day long once enemy have a sight on you you die that's history and we don't want it back we want to running around casting abilty do dumb S#&$ and fail a lot but not die.

A warframe nowadays without any CC ability can still survive and that's what make perfect control no longer needed and should be belence out cuz we won't die due to couldn't control everything anymore.

 

It kinda comes down to what a player feels is "fair" and the ratio at which CC / Protection has declined in value as result.

eHP frame were easy to play but had hard limitations in scaling. Caster types, CC, Protection, Glass Cannons, etc could far exceed an eHP frame but they would enter the state of one mistake and dead. I always saw this as a fair trade. Obviously with the daily topics of Shield Gating back in the day, others didn't.

I see Shield Gating as a mistake generally since it gives that that 2nd chance and sometimes with augments 3rd or 4th chances to make a mistake.
It's what ultimately lead to Overguard IMO and the deficiency of ability performance.

Now however. eHP + DPS has taken the fore front. My Rhino can still CC, get 200k Iron Skin and group buff for 3x damage (6x for DoTs). Everyone has their free mistake card also so I don't really need to protect players. I need to protect Defense and Excavation objectives which puts CC/Protection in a fairly small corner of play.

EDIT: Oh I should also mention Shield Gating gave birth to true immortal frames like Rhino and Trinity.
It's something DE fixed then tried to avoid for years.

 

Edited April 30 by Xzorn

[0_The_F00l]

I would say CC is ineffective on very specific enemies , that are not supposed to be very common, usually enemies with overguard.

Unfortunately , they have also made it such that there are quite a few modes where these specific enemies are a lot more common and the mode also tends to be more rewarding.

Due to this it appears that most of the game is having anti CC setups , when it's these specific sections that the issues arise.

It is definitely an issue and there really should be some means for CC frames to still function in these modes ,

I had already recommended these before but I will re iterate.

1) Insta CC effects like blind / sleep / knockdown/ stun would take away fixed  % of the enemies overguard.

2) Sustained CC effects , like slow , grouped (vortex , larva etc) chaos sphere etc keep draining the overguard at a steady rate, 

This paired with one of the other recommendation that overguard becomes more vulnerable when in presence of a CC effect. Would make it more reasonable but not trivialise them.

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

On 2024-04-28 at 2:02 AM, Tellmeninetails said:

It doesn't make sense that undamaging cc abilities are so discouraged right now. Nullifiers and eximus basically have blanket immunity to all type of CC and it forces us into a damage only meta since damage is the only thing that still works on them and makes a ton of frames less viable when they should be very good.

It would make more sense if for nullifiers at least it was reversed and they became significantly more resistant to damage and basically immune to damage abilities(unless you shot the drone) but CC actually works well on them, maybe they pop the bubble entirely because they can't maintain it or something idk.

You started with "so many enemies" and then stated only the nullifiers and eximus units. Guys, when did we suddenly over exaggerate to this level. You can CC 98% of every enemy you will face...but you can't handle focusing on an extra mechanic on the rare enemies? 

I will ask you the same thing I ask everyone else who brings this topic up: at what levels are you having trouble controlling the room due to excess eximus and nullifier units?

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

CC is fine. Some people got used to afk 280 range playstyles and are now frustrated because they have to pay attention, move around, and use their full arsenal.

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

56 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

CC is fine. Some people got used to afk 280 range playstyles and are now frustrated because they have to pay attention, move around, and use their full arsenal.

This is the same vibe I'm getting. It reminds me of the old days of YouTubers standing in one spot and CC'ing the room for hours upon hours. At least now, further action is required and there's a lot more meaning to the full arsenal. 

[Venus-Venera]

Am 28.4.2024 um 11:02 schrieb Tellmeninetails:

It doesn't make sense that undamaging cc abilities are so discouraged right now. Nullifiers and eximus basically have blanket immunity to all type of CC and it forces us into a damage only meta since damage is the only thing that still works on them and makes a ton of frames less viable when they should be very good.

It would make more sense if for nullifiers at least it was reversed and they became significantly more resistant to damage and basically immune to damage abilities(unless you shot the drone) but CC actually works well on them, maybe they pop the bubble entirely because they can't maintain it or something idk.

Oh well. In terms of the usual content, it's actually hardly a problem because the games are usually very short.
But what really bothers me is excav missions in SP circuit. I had just had a long game and the boys were probably bored. Played almost up to lvl 9999 and after assassination came excav, which no one wanted to play.

cc immune things insta kill everyone and especially insta kill obj. How embarrassing and ridiculous is that...? At least here it should be urgently fixed. I defended the penultimate excav with slam spam. Without 14mil crits this would be a super boring and long mission.

[spider_enigma]

5 hours ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

CC is fine. Some people got used to afk 280 range playstyles and are now frustrated because they have to pay attention, move around, and use their full arsenal.

can you name all of the eximus units? also in some missions half of the enemies are eximus and have way more overguard then hp, the moment the overguard is gone they die so there is no cc play after

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

18 hours ago, Venus-Venera said:

Oh well. In terms of the usual content, it's actually hardly a problem because the games are usually very short.
But what really bothers me is excav missions in SP circuit. I had just had a long game and the boys were probably bored. Played almost up to lvl 9999 and after assassination came excav, which no one wanted to play.

cc immune things insta kill everyone and especially insta kill obj. How embarrassing and ridiculous is that...? At least here it should be urgently fixed. I defended the penultimate excav with slam spam. Without 14mil crits this would be a super boring and long mission.

I think your experience is exactly where it should be nearly impossible and why it should not be fixed. Otherwise, what's the point of level 9999? 

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

16 hours ago, spider_enigma said:

can you name all of the eximus units? also in some missions half of the enemies are eximus and have way more overguard then hp, the moment the overguard is gone they die so there is no cc play after

What mission has half of the units as eximus? Again...and I'm going to keep saying this: very high level SP content should not be used in these discussions because the game we're supposed to be skilled enough to deal with the game ramping up unreasonable situations for unreasonable levels. Having the ability to coast to level 9999 sounds weird to expect.

[Trollocaustic]

On 2024-04-30 at 8:41 AM, 0_The_F00l said:

I would say CC is ineffective on very specific enemies , that are not supposed to be very common, usually enemies with overguard.

Unfortunately , they have also made it such that there are quite a few modes where these specific enemies are a lot more common and the mode also tends to be more rewarding.

Due to this it appears that most of the game is having anti CC setups , when it's these specific sections that the issues arise.

It is definitely an issue and there really should be some means for CC frames to still function in these modes ,

I had already recommended these before but I will re iterate.

1) Insta CC effects like blind / sleep / knockdown/ stun would take away fixed  % of the enemies overguard.

2) Sustained CC effects , like slow , grouped (vortex , larva etc) chaos sphere etc keep draining the overguard at a steady rate, 

This paired with one of the other recommendation that overguard becomes more vulnerable when in presence of a CC effect. Would make it more reasonable but not trivialise them.

Personally, I would suggest all CC work against Eximus units but at reduced efficacy.

[0_The_F00l]

18 minutes ago, Trollocaustic said:

Personally, I would suggest all CC work against Eximus units but at reduced efficacy.

Some of the effects are all or nothing though. You can't really be partially asleep or partially lifted.