New player experience and accuiring new equipment.

[-EmVuu-]

Game looks pay to win when you first start since market / loadout menu only shows prices in platium and credit cost is hidden. This will discourage new players to continue playing if everything seems to be behind microtransactions. Also market is full of noobtraps like credit packs. There should be tutorial to building new equipment and market should be locked until that is completed, also hide weapons that you dont own from loudaout menu. Overall UI needs rework to make it very clear that you can get almost everything for free just by playing. Also foundry timers are starting to feel bit outdated, maybe you could rush them for credits too, something like 500k credits?

Edited May 17 by -EmVuu-
More thoughts added.

[Zakkhar]

25 minutes ago, -EmVuu- said:

There should be tutorial to building new equipment

Tutorials are terrible. Also modern gamers skip pretty much everything. Building new equipment needs to be taught in practical, organic way.

25 minutes ago, -EmVuu- said:

Game looks pay to win when you first start, market / loadout shows only prices in platium and credit cost is hidden

Untrue. Weapons available for credits have credit icon, instead of plat. There is no winning here, it is a PvE game. If anything it would be pay2skip gameplay. Also plat is entirely grindable without any real money, so not even pay. This is not a game for people who judge the book by the cover or jump to conclusions without full information. Imo the faster it discourages them from playing, the less time they waste.

Edited May 17 by Zakkhar

[Venus-Venera]

vor 28 Minuten schrieb -EmVuu-:

Game looks pay to win when you first start since market / loadout menu only shows prices in platium and credit cost is hidden. This will discourage new players to continue playing if everything seems to be behind microtransactions. Also market is full of noobtraps like credit packs. There should be tutorial to building new equipment and market should be locked until that is completed, also hide weapons that you dont own from loudaout menu. Overall UI needs rework to make it very clear that you can get almost everything for free just by playing. Also foundry timers are starting to feel bit outdated, maybe you could rush them for credits too, something like 500k credits?

actually not “looks” at all. Because there is no catch-up mechanic and new players are at an extreme disadvantage...

[Agall]

33 minutes ago, -EmVuu- said:

Game looks pay to win

Warframe is a free to play game.

 

Aside from that simple assertion, the games always had a healthy time to money relationship since trading was added, so for like a decade. I've found myself enjoying making platinum via trading and using that platinum to buy something on the market than do the primary method of acquisition. A bit of 'choose your own adventure' involved because of that possiblity.

 

Its also entirely possible, by far easier in this game than many, to acquire everything without spending a cent. I know people who've done just that, and its entirely their choice to spend $0 on the game.

[-EmVuu-]

19 minutes ago, Zakkhar said:

Tutorials are terrible. Also modern gamers skip pretty much everything. Building new equipment needs to be taught in practical, organic way.

Untrue. Weapons available for credits have credit icon, instead of plat. There is no winning here, it is a PvE game. If anything it would be pay2skip gameplay. Also plat is entirely grindable without any real money, so not even pay. This is not a game for people who judge the book by the cover or jump to conclusions without full information. Imo the faster it discourages them from playing, the less time they waste.

You know it very well that its true that market is very discouraging to new players.

[-EmVuu-]

You seem to miss the point of the post, most likely i cant just explain well what i mean. Im not saying that there should be changes in grind, personally i think that there is too little grind. But when new player gets first glance in market and everything shows prices in premium currency many are just going to stop there, why not show prices in plat and also in credits/add icon to show if you can get it from dojo. I have many friends who would have stopped playing if i wouldnt have told them that you can buy blueprints with credits, they are just hidden. Players who have played long enought just tend to overlook these things.

[-EmVuu-]

29 minutes ago, Agall said:

Warframe is a free to play game.

 

Aside from that simple assertion, the games always had a healthy time to money relationship since trading was added, so for like a decade. I've found myself enjoying making platinum via trading and using that platinum to buy something on the market than do the primary method of acquisition. A bit of 'choose your own adventure' involved because of that possiblity.

 

Its also entirely possible, by far easier in this game than many, to acquire everything without spending a cent. I know people who've done just that, and its entirely their choice to spend $0 on the game.

Yes, i do that myself too, trade for plat and buy stuff with it, but that was not point of post.

[(PSN)Sentiel]

This is a certainly valid feedback that can lead to new player believing they can only obtain new equipment through Platinum.

Instead of Platinum, the unowned items should just take you to their market page which will explain how to obtain the item but also give you the option to pay for them. That would be much more user friendly.

[SneakyErvin]

They could possible change how unowned weapons are presented. I can imagine a new player being a bit at unease since you need to hit the purchase button before getting to the page that shows you if you can buy the BP for credits or if it is obtainable as drops or from the dojo.

@(PSN)Sentielprovides a good solution imo.

[Venus-Venera]

vor 55 Minuten schrieb -EmVuu-:

Yes, i do that myself too, trade for plat and buy stuff with it, but that was not point of post.

it takes forever and without real life cash investments the whole thing is a waste of time...

[zThulsaDoomz]

2 hours ago, Zakkhar said:

If anything it would be pay2skip gameplay. 

Thank you

It gets annoying explaining this even to people who've been playing for years

[Genitive]

2 hours ago, Zakkhar said:

Untrue. Weapons available for credits have credit icon, instead of plat.

That's true, but OP does have a point here. If you open the market for the first time, you only see plat prices, until you click an item. Not only that, but the featured tab has both items with blueprints and plat-only items. It's not super bad, but can be confusing to new players and definitely could be done better. A popup window explaining how the market works when you open it for the first time would be a good start.

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

2 hours ago, Venus-Venera said:

actually not “looks” at all. Because there is no catch-up mechanic and new players are at an extreme disadvantage...

There should not be a "catch-up" mechanic. What are you catching up to? New players have no idea of what any of the weapons can do...because they are just starting and learning. The game is supposed to be played like any other game so there's no need to rush to the end. 

[Venus-Venera]

vor 38 Minuten schrieb zThulsaDoomz:

Thank you

It gets annoying explaining this even to people who've been playing for years

np. Unfortunately that's not true at all.
So it's best to ask players with experience

[zThulsaDoomz]

17 minutes ago, Venus-Venera said:

np. Unfortunately that's not true at all.
So it's best to ask players with experience

What?

[voidctrl]

OP is correct. If you introduced a new player to the game, you would have to explicitly warn them away from throwing hundreds of platinum at garbage-tier weapons from the market or from Darvo, which would otherwise buy you dramatically better stuff through trade. There's still a lot of unreasonable purchase options in the game. "It's actually extremely fair" is interrupted by "except for these options, dont ever click on them".

[Agall]

On 2024-05-17 at 9:46 AM, -EmVuu- said:

Yes, i do that myself too, trade for plat and buy stuff with it, but that was not point of post.

On 2024-05-17 at 8:37 AM, -EmVuu- said:

Game looks pay to win when you first start since market / loadout menu only shows prices in platium and credit cost is hidden. This will discourage new players to continue playing if everything seems to be behind microtransactions. Also market is full of noobtraps like credit packs. There should be tutorial to building new equipment and market should be locked until that is completed, also hide weapons that you dont own from loudaout menu. Overall UI needs rework to make it very clear that you can get almost everything for free just by playing. Also foundry timers are starting to feel bit outdated, maybe you could rush them for credits too, something like 500k credits?

I'd personally rather have DE continue to make new content to keep the game active than making tutorials on how the base marketplace and crafting systems work that've been beaten to death with online/youtube tutorials for over a decade.

 

So, other than complaining about how a free to play game is monetized, I don't see your point. The fact that someone can get LR4 in a few months of playing the game spending $0 speaks to the fair nature of the monetization scheme. DE allowing players to buy credit packs with platinum is a good thing in this sort of game, even if it's almost always an absolute waste, the freedom of choice is there.

[Venus-Venera]

vor einer Stunde schrieb Agall:

I'd personally rather have DE continue to make new content to keep the game active than making tutorials on how the base marketplace and crafting systems work that've been beaten to death with online/youtube tutorials for over a decade.

 

So, other than complaining about how a free to play game is monetized, I don't see your point. The fact that someone can get LR4 in a few months of playing the game spending $0 speaks to the fair nature of the monetization scheme. DE allowing players to buy credit packs with platinum is a good thing in this sort of game, even if it's almost always an absolute waste, the freedom of choice is there.

They can't do it either. And they don't want that either, which is why they almost completely ignore communication in the forum.

Because you also have to understand players and know how they think... and you can see straight away that the designers are simple, because boss fights, quests and many other things are designed very poorly. So player comes in and doesn't UNDERSTAND WHAT TO DO at all! You can't go any further without a wiki... or without a forum.
Only other players can explain to other players how each and this works and what to do...

Actually the wiki does a good job. And there are certainly useful YouTube videos that explain a pleasant start in Warframe. This means new players can at least arm themselves. and of course have a lot of patience. because there is a lot to learn here.

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

1 hour ago, Venus-Venera said:

They can't do it either. And they don't want that either, which is why they almost completely ignore communication in the forum.

Because you also have to understand players and know how they think... and you can see straight away that the designers are simple, because boss fights, quests and many other things are designed very poorly. So player comes in and doesn't UNDERSTAND WHAT TO DO at all! You can't go any further without a wiki... or without a forum.
Only other players can explain to other players how each and this works and what to do...

Actually the wiki does a good job. And there are certainly useful YouTube videos that explain a pleasant start in Warframe. This means new players can at least arm themselves. and of course have a lot of patience. because there is a lot to learn here.

I'll have to disagree with the boss and quest design comments you made. The designs are excellent ... it's the rushing players and VERY BAD ADVICE that is the problem.

The reality is that a LOT of player try to rush in, guns blazing, and get wrecked and don't understand why. This is why so many players had issues with New War. Would you keep trying that tactic in Elden Ring? The only main difference between that game and Warframe is the newer players are taught by other players and YouTubers, to just use a meta, speed through the game, and you'll be fine. The majority of advice is trash, literally littering the beauty of the game's experience.

Also, the devs don't ignore the forums. The massive update notes prove that. However, don't expect the busiest people in the company to personally chime in to do two way communication. Doing so could lead them to a lot of issues where player personalities, dark motives and agendas could cause massive PR issues. Instead, notes are taken and we are allowed to talk the issues out amongst ourselves. When the do chime in, it would be for a major correct or if the rhetoric is a little to misleading. 

[BansheeAndZephyrMarried]

I don't think a whole separate tutorial is necessary when you yourself recognize it's chiefly a UI design issue. We're in agreement that arsenal UI in particular does a horrible job of putting the best foot forward. 

Not to say UI design is easy or anything- good UIs are hard to come by because good UIs go unnoticed. 

One improvement I had in mind was replacing platinum cost in arsenal window with different labels and tags. "Blueprint available" for gears players meet the MR requirement and can directly purchase the blueprint from market. "Quest required" and "research required" for gears they meet the mastery but have not finished associated quests and lab research. 

Platinum cost and purchase would be available once the player is taken to market menu, but in the arsenal the UI should inform players what they can and cannot use at that moment. 

[Agall]

On 2024-05-20 at 9:34 AM, Venus-Venera said:

They can't do it either. And they don't want that either, which is why they almost completely ignore communication in the forum.

Because you also have to understand players and know how they think... and you can see straight away that the designers are simple, because boss fights, quests and many other things are designed very poorly. So player comes in and doesn't UNDERSTAND WHAT TO DO at all! You can't go any further without a wiki... or without a forum.
Only other players can explain to other players how each and this works and what to do...

Actually the wiki does a good job. And there are certainly useful YouTube videos that explain a pleasant start in Warframe. This means new players can at least arm themselves. and of course have a lot of patience. because there is a lot to learn here.

I have a friend who picked up the game again recently, not really knowing anything before but the basics. So, I'm well aware of how complex the game mechanics are in having to explain all of it to a casual gamer getting into it all. Comparably, another friend hopping back in after a few years who was at MR16, and explaining the new mechanics from that point in time.

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

I don't necessarily disagree OP. There are some general ideas and points I also generally agree with, but there are also a few... Issues I think are more nuanced and complex. Warframe uses a FTP model, a relatively unique kind, in some aspects. Its entirely possible to accuse them of relying too much on players and potential players to have to do their own research on the game. 

What do I mean by that? Well consumers are different, some people can see a $100 game, and they might just buy it, because they heard about it, they like the cover image of the game, or they can just afford it. Some other people may need to have familiarity with the developers who made the game, prequels, maybe they need a trailer or a demo, maybe they need to wait for reviews, and then after all that, they made a decision? Different people, have different attitudes about how much they knew, understand and research something before they buy it. 

So then, some might say "well Warframe is free, so, what risks are there, do I need to research it?" well, for me, the fact that its free, means you should actually want to research and be more aware than usual. "Free" games are the games you should be most suspicious of, and discerning, and research before hand, because free games have to make their money somehow... and so depending on the model they are using, they can either be extremely predatory, shady, extremely grindy or much more generally and relatively better. It can get a bit subjective as well though, and context applies, because well things have a lot of components to them generally). 

The point I am getting at, is that there is a lot within Warframe that can seem deceptive and misleading, and so require some sort of research or clarification, whether thats because a person looks up the information online, asks a friend, asks on a forum, asks in the in game Q&A, or so on. Should a person have to though? Well depends, usually, I personally think they should have to... That games should be self contained and have adequate information and context in game... Then again when I think that, I usually am thinking of full priced stand alone games, with completely different monetisation models. Games with physical copies, that used to come with small booklets that explained stuff. Even then, many of those games, like a lot of old school JRPG's, or RPG's often had complicated systems, or secrets, which required you to either get very very lucky, or get official guides, magazines, or go online to have to learn or understand them... 

An argument could be made, that DE rests on the idea, that people can and probably should research the game a little, if and when required. An argument could be made, that the game could use better UI and introduction to systems as well, but then, those two arguments aren't complete opposites. They are relative, and subjective, because many peoples ability to slow down and process information, and draw links, and enjoy in speculation, and figuring out stuff, whether they think that using external sources fine or not, well its all different. So you'll never be able to please all people. 

Does that mean that many new people will bounce off the game and be dissuaded from playing it? Absolutely, but thats always going to happen, always has happened, to everything. Video games in general has a retention issue, as in many people start games or buy games, but never actually finish them. Often, its not because of the game, sometimes it might be. Its a large topic to address. Many people will also bounce off Warframe because its a FTP game. Should Warframe just dramatically overhaul its monetisation model thats held up for 10 years? Probably not, and I am also not saying that as an argument they should improve new user experiences, because they absolutely should, and they already do, frequently, but... There is where individual players need to be careful about our own personal experiences and thoughts versus trying to understand the issue more objectively and neutrally using actual figures, sample sizes, data. You can't just add 20 new pop up, instruction tutorial systems at the start, because many many people would find that more annoying and frustrating, even if they were incorporated well, let alone poorly. 

For some people it may be better to test out themselves, look in game for such info, even its not immediately obvious where to look, or to just google the question they have. Again, to be clear, just some people, and not all people, because clearly, many people would prefer more help, more tutorials, and a better new player experience, but not all suggestions for improvements are equal or as easy to implement. Thats the challenging part, and then you have to consider the resources and time involved, and then whether its "worth it" because that time and resources could be put elsewhere.

Like and this isn't meant to be an example thats grounded in reality, just a strict abstract hypothetical, but what would be more important, spending time and resources to refine new player experience, to see 10 out of 100 new players may stay longer than a week with the game, or to keep working on next update that will have 10 000 players return to the game. Also I am exaggerating my numbers for effect, since I don't have access to such numbers (more specifically new player retention and all that, since we can use some numbers around how many players are playing, return for updates, play monthly etc). 

You also have to remember there are probably many many things Devs should like to do, as far as refining new player experience, including stuff we commonly suggest, just they may not be able to, because they do have to care more about some other part of the game, like updates, and they talk about this a bit in the NoClip documentary, the game lives and dies by new updates. Might have changed since that was like 5 years ago, but... 

TL;DR, people will always bounce off the game (and many games in general) for reasons, but sometimes thats already understood, and its more important to strategise more around keeping the people who start to stay, and remain, and appealing a bit more to them, as well as trying to make less people bounce off as well. Then add the pressure of it being your job too. The bigger the changes you make, the bigger the risks. Which is usually why they do frequently improve new player experience, but not always in radical or massive ways. 

Oh and some people are surprised when Warframes age ratings are discussed. This is also its own complicated subject, because different countries have different ratings, and there are different age rating boards, plus legality context, and some also involve the publisher and devs (like IIRC DE themselves generally want Warframe rated older for certain reasons, as their actual language and violence content don't necessarily qualify them for as high as the rating can be, again depending on which country...) All of that to say, is I personally think Warframe should be that high, because of the nature of online transactions, and I think thats a thing DE themselves have a stand on. See in a vacuum, if someone were to play Warframe for the first time, I think they could get the idea that Warframe requires you to spend real currency/money to progress and or to enjoy what it has to offer... You do, actually have to do some research to find out almost everything can be acquired for free, and what can't be acquired, tends to be things like Prime Cosmetics, but also that there are far more cosmetics you can get for "free" as well (well free as far as you have to grind/earn obviously). For myself, it would be a bigger issue if this game was intended for kids/young teens, and not older people who should be more discerning and should do research before spending money.