I Want Ember Heirloom But She Desperately Need a Revisit Before I Buy

[crazywolfpusher]

- Fireball full dmg without holding sounds very interesting, the damage can be quite massive with Heat Inherit.

- Immolation Ouch, 10 energy to 4. Ember energy economy problems lies on the Immolation uncapped energy drain. It's manageable but very annoying. What she really needed was a drain cap ala Gloom.

edit: it seems like the energy ramp up is now 60% slower as well. 😐

- Fireblast improvements on the hitboxes and affecting VIP targets, fantastic.

The augment giving Overguard gonna make Immolation even more useless. With a High efficiency build, Fireblast energy cost wasn't a problem. With the changes to enemy armor, Full strip seems that it gonna be Overkill also the nature of the augment means we want to spam it. No need for max Heat. So what's the value of Immolation now? The damage increase on her Inferno only affect the ring of fire which is the worst part of the ability. There are ZERO reasons to use Immolation after the changes.

 

I saw this coming with the Heirloom Skin and the Frost/Cold tweaks it seemed like the perfect opportunity to touch Ember however I'm afraid they are missing the mark. The energy cost reduction doesn't solve any of her problems.

 

Edited June 6 by crazywolfpusher

[PR1D3]

10 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

Another thing Ember fans have been looking for:

 

 

1 hour ago, Tiltskillet said:

 

 

Bro. Pablo can't keep getting away with this. Holy S#&$. This update can't hit fast enough. Here I though those Arcanes would make me remake a few builds. I'm going to have to see how Ember's energy economy is now at base with the changes. I had a build with Healing Flame that I might go back to.

[trst]

1 hour ago, crazywolfpusher said:

- Immolation Ouch, 10 energy to 4. Ember energy economy problems lies on the Immolation uncapped energy drain. It's manageable but very annoying. What she really needed was a drain cap ala Gloom.

Except with the reductions the only way anyone should be getting to the point of the drain being a problem is by intentionally not using Fireblast. And that window is widened by Fireblast being cheaper too.

Plus anyone who somehow continues to have that problem can still just use efficiency mods. A fraction of an energy point per second isn't breaking anyone's energy economy. 

1 hour ago, crazywolfpusher said:

The augment giving Overguard gonna make Immolation even more useless. With a High efficiency build, Fireblast energy cost wasn't a problem. With the changes to enemy armor, Full strip seems that it gonna be Overkill also the nature of the augment means we want to spam it. No need for max Heat. So what's the value of Immolation now? The damage increase on her Inferno only affect the ring of fire which is the worst part of the ability. There are ZERO reasons to use Immolation after the changes.

Immolation is only useless if you only want a tank build that abuses shield + overguard gate. And even then DR is still useful in that context. Plus you're forgetting that Immolation is how you access Heat in the first place, no Immolate means no one cast full strip and weaker heals/less overguard. And as for the value of full stripping with the changes we won't know that till we have proper numbers and examples. 

Also the augment won't require spamming as one point of overguard gets you the .5 seconds of gating when you lose it anyways. It'll still be useful for more general survivability and enabling health tank Ember even more. 

1 hour ago, crazywolfpusher said:

Ember however I'm afraid they are missing the mark. The energy cost reduction doesn't solve any of her problems.

Energy concerns are literally the biggest complaint players had about her. If multiple reductions to her drain and a cost reduction on Fireblast doesn't solve her "problems" then players didn't know what their problems with her were in the first place. 

[crazywolfpusher]

23 minutes ago, trst said:

Energy concerns are literally the biggest complaint players had about her. If multiple reductions to her drain and a cost reduction on Fireblast doesn't solve her "problems" then players didn't know what their problems with her were in the first place. 

Energy concerns are related to Immolation uncapped energy drain.  Having reduced Energy cost on Fireblast based on Heat meter doesn't solve the issue of Immolation not having capped drain.

Sadly, Inferno still require high efficiency since it's her bread and butter. You spam it the whole mission due to bad line of sight requirements and low dmg.

Edited June 6 by crazywolfpusher

[Joezone619]

2 hours ago, crazywolfpusher said:

I saw this coming with the Heirloom Skin and the Frost/Cold tweaks it seemed like the perfect opportunity to touch Ember however I'm afraid they are missing the mark. The energy cost reduction doesn't solve any of her problems.

Damn right it misses the mark.

For me the biggest problem is her 4th, yet according to pablo's video, its receiving NO CHANGES. It does low damage, has poor LoS, and high energy costs. The worst part tho, is it completely breaks the theme of ember and doesn't even make sense, how do rocks fall from the sky, inside a space ship?

If it were her 1st or 2nd that broke theme that would be fine, valkyr's ripline doesn't really keep to the "unbridled rage" theme she has going, but people don't have issue with that. But a warframe's ultimate? I haven't touched ember since the rework because of this, ember just doesn't feel like ember, more like atlas.

Edited June 6 by Joezone619

[crazywolfpusher]

36 minutes ago, Joezone619 said:

Damn right it misses the mark.

For me the biggest problem is her 4th, yet according to pablo's video, its receiving NO CHANGES. It does low damage, has poor LoS, and high energy costs. The worst part tho, is it completely breaks the theme of ember and doesn't even make sense, how do rock fall from the sky, inside a space ship?

If it were her 1st or 2nd that broke theme that would be fine, valkyr's ripline doesn't really keep to the "unbridled rage" theme she has going, but people don't have issue with that. But a warframe's ultimate? I haven't touched ember since the rework because of this, ember just doesn't feel like ember, more like atlas.

If I were to add a little extra just to stay in line with Pablos vision, I'd change the bonuses at full heat meter on Inferno to increase the damage of the comet instead of the ring of fire. Currently Inferno doesn't get value of Immolation-Heat meter.

Also maybe make her Heat procs scale with duration similar to the new cold procs on some abitilies.

Edited June 6 by crazywolfpusher

[FmV01]

Immolation also needs a visual rework, it just kills the fashion.

[TARINunit9]

On 2024-06-01 at 5:29 PM, (XBOX)TheMadCash said:

She could be the queen of major heat procs but she is not

I agree that Ember needs big buffs, but I think you're focusing on the wrong thing. Heat procs suck giant rooster eggs

Reducing an enemy's armor by 50% really only results in an enemy's damage reduction dropping from 99% to 97%. And since the damage-over-time part also obeys armor, and heat procs are capped at 10, they won't be doing any killing either way

Heat damage as a whole is fine, but I just can't find a use for heat procs

[crazywolfpusher]

49 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

I agree that Ember needs big buffs, but I think you're focusing on the wrong thing. Heat procs suck giant rooster eggs

Reducing an enemy's armor by 50% really only results in an enemy's damage reduction dropping from 99% to 97%. And since the damage-over-time part also obeys armor, and heat procs are capped at 10, they won't be doing any killing either way

Heat damage as a whole is fine, but I just can't find a use for heat procs

You are confusing something because Heat stacks infinitely . 

And btw, armor scaling is getting rework. There is a whole thread about it, you should check it first.

Edited June 7 by crazywolfpusher

[TARINunit9]

58 minutes ago, crazywolfpusher said:

You are confusing something because Heat stacks infinitely . 

Yeah I think I had it mixed up with Gas. And now that I have refreshed myself, functionally Heat has a maximum stack of ONE, not ten

59 minutes ago, crazywolfpusher said:

And btw, armor scaling is getting rework. There is a whole thread about it, you should check it first.

Yeah which is probably why DE isn't going to rework Ember in the first place. They want to wait and see. Frost needed some code tweaks because they changed how Frozen Procs work (I mean Cold and Frozen were considered separate things until now, so the fact they aren't anymore means DE need to check all their work). But nothing on Ember's kit will be impacted, yet she's also getting an indirect buff. So they don't want to change too much too quickly

[RichardKam]

5小时前 , crazywolfpusher 说:

Energy concerns are related to Immolation uncapped energy drain.  Having reduced Energy cost on Fireblast based on Heat meter doesn't solve the issue of Immolation not having capped drain.

That's the problem. People see immolation full heat = 90% DR oh that must be good I am going to stay there ahhh my energy Pablo fix it totally unplayable stupid frame.

No. Anyone who complained about immolation uncapped energy drain got it all wrong. The key was never about the value of heat gauge, it was about the rate of increase of heat gauge.

The usual practice was to hit fire blast to reset the value of heat gauge, and what Pablo did was to allow healing flame (fire blast) to provide overguard to cover your window of down time. The reduction in energy cost and healing flame buff streamlines everything.

If it is still too difficult, people can always go back to revenant.

[crazywolfpusher]

55 minutes ago, RichardKam said:

No. Anyone who complained about immolation uncapped energy drain got it all wrong. The key was never about the value of heat gauge, it was about the rate of increase of heat gauge.

???????

I don't understand what the rate of increase of the heat gauge has to do with anything.

The heat gauge can go to 90% in like half a second after Fireblast. That ain't changing far as I know.

Worth mention that Healing flames can heal you without using Immolation which removes the Heat gauge entirely. If that part is not changing, then the only reason to use Immolation after the changes is to Reduce the energy cost of Fireblast and fully strip in 1 cast which is super redundant on a Warframe that is meant to build sky high efficiency and want to use Fireblast constantly to replenish Overguard.

 

The Immolation uncapped energy is problematic when you are doing an objective or you get distracted or whatever, you get punished hard. It's not about wanting to play Ember like a Zombie Revenant. No other DR ability in the game is tied to such hardcore punishment. Personally I never had problems with Immolation draining energy, I can easily play around it, my problem was that the ability doesn't offer anything of value in exchange outside the 90%DR and 100% strip.

 

 

Edited June 7 by crazywolfpusher

[Hexerin]

10 hours ago, Arbitrary said:

Pablo says the Overguard generation is for Ember only

Unless that arcane is obscenely strong, it's already dead before arrival. Arcane slots are limited, and there's already many extremely strong arcanes fighting for those slots.

[RichardKam]

47分钟前 , crazywolfpusher 说:

???????

I don't understand what the rate of increase of the heat gauge has to do with anything.

So does 99% of people complaining about Ember. It is OK. Let me explain.

At 100% heat gauge you have 90% DR. Cool. You start draining energy. You hit fire blast to 1) reset your heat gauge to 50% and stop energy drain and 2) reduce your rate of heating by 2%/s. For reference, fire ball increase rate of heating by 1%/s and inferno 3%/s.

If your rate of heating is 1%/s, it takes 50s to reach 100% heat, that is the down time window. In extreme case, 25%/s, it takes 2s to reach 100% heat.

If your rate of heating is sufficiently high, say 30%/s, what will happen is that you reach 100% heat in 1.67s, gaining 90% DR and 100% strip. When your energy drain becomes unmanageable, you hit fire blast. Now you have 28%/s and you go back to 100% heat in 1.78s, but your energy drain will start from zero again.

In an ideal situation, what you should be doing is to cast inferno like crazy, pushing rate of heating to sky high, and fire blasting (and using your weapons) like crazy, armor stripping everything around you, and repeat the above, turning the room into hell's kitchen, keeping 90% DR with very small down time window (it is ok because everyone around you got knock down already), 100% armor strip, with practically zero energy drain.

"Oh my Ember is draining energy like crazy", then why are you sitting at 100% heat gauge? If your are surrounded, fire blast and turn things into tissue paper. If you are alone, tune down the rate of heating.

That's why inferno was designed to cost zero energy when there is no enemy around you, to adjust the rate of heating freely. That's why it was not necessary for inferno to be as powerful as Dagath's 4 because with exothermic it was made to spread heat and give energy orb to sustain your 3=>4=>3 loop.

Now introducing Pablo. Healing flame augment gives overguard. In a more realistic scenario your rate of heating would be around maybe 10%/s, i.e. 5-6s to reach 90% DR. Now healing flame covers that down time window for you, giving you buffer and taking away 0.5s down time as well. The cost of fire blast was also reduced, giving you more freedom.

1小时前 , crazywolfpusher 说:

my problem was that the ability doesn't offer anything of value in exchange outside the 90%DR and 100% strip.

90% DR is.......something of value already. Tons of frames have no damage reduction ability at all.

If we are talking about level cap stuff and comparing with things like shield gating, then it is beyond the scope of Ember discussion and more about armor damage and other mechanics.

[crazywolfpusher]

14 minutes ago, RichardKam said:

So does 99% of people complaining about Ember. It is OK. Let me explain.

At 100% heat gauge you have 90% DR. Cool. You start draining energy. You hit fire blast to 1) reset your heat gauge to 50% and stop energy drain and 2) reduce your rate of heating by 2%/s. For reference, fire ball increase rate of heating by 1%/s and inferno 3%/s.

If your rate of heating is 1%/s, it takes 50s to reach 100% heat, that is the down time window. In extreme case, 25%/s, it takes 2s to reach 100% heat.

If your rate of heating is sufficiently high, say 30%/s, what will happen is that you reach 100% heat in 1.67s, gaining 90% DR and 100% strip. When your energy drain becomes unmanageable, you hit fire blast. Now you have 28%/s and you go back to 100% heat in 1.78s, but your energy drain will start from zero again.

In an ideal situation, what you should be doing is to cast inferno like crazy, pushing rate of heating to sky high, and fire blasting (and using your weapons) like crazy, armor stripping everything around you, and repeat the above, turning the room into hell's kitchen, keeping 90% DR with very small down time window (it is ok because everyone around you got knock down already), 100% armor strip, with practically zero energy drain.

"Oh my Ember is draining energy like crazy", then why are you sitting at 100% heat gauge? If your are surrounded, fire blast and turn things into tissue paper. If you are alone, tune down the rate of heating.

That's why inferno was designed to cost zero energy when there is no enemy around you, to adjust the rate of heating freely. That's why it was not necessary for inferno to be as powerful as Dagath's 4 because with exothermic it was made to spread heat and give energy orb to sustain your 3=>4=>3 loop.

Now introducing Pablo. Healing flame augment gives overguard. In a more realistic scenario your rate of heating would be around maybe 10%/s, i.e. 5-6s to reach 90% DR. Now healing flame covers that down time window for you, giving you buffer and taking away 0.5s down time as well. The cost of fire blast was also reduced, giving you more freedom.

Still I don't understand what the rate of increase of the heat gauge has to do with Immolation being a bad ability that only offers damage reduction to compensate the micromanaging it demands. Is not like playing starcraft type of micro, but still. Latest missions where you constantly want to focus on something aside of cooking enemies for 10 seconds like solving a puzzle, chase the book, the Gruzzling, the Necramite , hit the Voidrig weakparts, res an ally by defeating an angel, etc. it's annoying and doesn't bring anything to compensate the risk of opsie I forgot to use Fireblast, which btw doesn't affect the book, the Gruzzling, the Necramite the Voidrigs, oh but I have to reset my Immolation!! me dummie!

Don't get me wrong, it's not just about Shield Gating and Overguard being better at the survivability part, Immolation could drain all my energy instantly if I mess up, I don't care, that's on me, but give me something in return for doing things right. 90% DR that goes up and down is just bad. Like I said, I'm probably better without it and just slap Roar over it so Inferno can dish out some actual damage.

Can you at least justify the design choice in way that having uncapped energy drain make sense? no other energy drain ability in the game has ramp up and uncapped drain other than maybe Equinox Peaceful Provocation augment that nobody uses, I wonder why

 

 

 

 

 

[RichardKam]

43分钟前 , crazywolfpusher 说:

Still I don't understand what the rate of increase of the heat gauge has to do with Immolation being a bad ability that only offers damage reduction to compensate the micromanaging it demands.

 

Can you at least justify the design choice in way that having uncapped energy drain make sense? no other energy drain ability in the game has ramp up and uncapped drain other than maybe Equinox Peaceful Provocation augment that nobody uses, I wonder why

If you are looking for justification you need to ask DE, not me. I am merely an Ember enjoyer. The only thing I can speculate is that if there is no energy drain at max heat, there is no reason not to stay at max heat for 90% DR and 100% armor strip (ie spamming inferno at the start of mission and push rate of heating to 300%/s), which in turns also means there is no point in scaling fire blast armor strip with heat gauge because everyone will be at max heat anyway, which defeat the entire design of heat gauge and DE may as well take it away, which ultimately turn Ember into the most boring generic buff/debuff frame.

There are lots of design choice in this game that not everyone will agree with. Valkyr energy drain, Nyx energy drain per damage, so on and so forth. You don't like Ember design. I like Ember design. And that's about it.

[Ghanjali]

The change to armor stripping VIP alone is a great QoL improvement.

Energy drain is nice too for those who haven't yet grasped the very well above-explained concept of heat gauge management that makes Ember an actual active (and fun) frame to play.

Those complaining that she's bad in SP (base and endurance, but I'm guessing base is mostly the concern here) because they can't burn entire rooms down in a second, should definitely look deeper into her kit and how to use it to achieve said goal. She does burn down entire rooms repeatedly, but in a less braindead fashion than other frames.

I understand where that feeling comes from, I've been trying at her for years, but I was mistakenly looking for obvious, "surface" answers. Ember is not meant to function as a mass aoe one shot fire frame in higher level content, she's meant to make things burn continuously, with a 100% reliable armor strip, whilst killing them through complementary means (dot ticks + loadout damage), also whilst being really tanky and mobile doing so. I mean, that's quite a lot going on for her.

Short statement is : pure strength is not the answer, stop trying to make that work in high end content, it won't. You will never clear entire rooms of 150+ SP mobs just spamming Inferno whilst maintaining 90 DR without having to give a sh*t about her energy economy. Now if you start looking into heat dots management, fire inherit, priming and melee, you've got yourself a whole new way of understanding Ember, that works freakin' wonders, and that is actually fun to play (and that involves using her skills a lot, mind you). Please stop complaining that she's a disappointement so that DE changes her to another boring, generic press-one-button frame. Please dont'.

Dig into her kit, so you can dig her. It's rewarding, I promise.

Edited June 16 by Ghanjali

[Hexerin]

On 2024-06-06 at 10:26 PM, crazywolfpusher said:

no other energy drain ability in the game has ramp up and uncapped drain other than maybe Equinox Peaceful Provocation augment that nobody uses, I wonder why

The only other ability in the game that is channeled and has an uncapped upper limit to energy drain is Nyx's Absorb. The more damage it accumulates, the higher the drain.