Would you use Topaz Archon Shards if...

[Probably_Asleep]

1. There was an option to grant +10% Ability Range (+15% if Tauforged)
2. There was an option to grant +10% Ability Efficiency (+15% if Tauforged)
3. There was an option to grant +15% Sprint Speed (+22.5% if Tauforged)
4. There was an option to add +15% (+22.5% if Tauforged) "Critical Chance" to Abilities (multiplies final ability damage by 2)
5. Any of the above
6. I already use Topaz Archon Shards, I love them

[Xylena_Lazarow]

1 hour ago, Probably_Asleep said:

There was an option to grant +10% Ability Range (+15% if Tauforged)

This leads to 355% range builds: good or bad for the game?

[quxier]

40 minutes ago, Probably_Asleep said:

•  
• There was an option to add +15% (+22.5% if Tauforged) "Critical Chance" to Abilities (multiplies final ability damage by 2)

All damage? Isn't it just +10/15% strength but just 0.5x better? I wouldn't bother.

First it would be probably calculated like: "base strength/damage" * mods/arcanes + N% chance for "base strength/damage". If damage came after mods/arcanes/stuffs then it would be too good compared to "on status +n ability damage"

You would require 4 normal or 3 tau making it... ugh... bad.

48 minutes ago, Probably_Asleep said:

•  
• There was an option to grant +15% Sprint Speed (+22.5% if Tauforged)

*take Probably asleep to the shelter so they cannot listen mean words*

First, I would start with Sprint speed and slap parkour for topaz or other shards. Why, oh why, when you just want sprint speed you have whole pack of stuff?!  I want to run faster not roll into the moon. Horrible design.

Secondly, I would add other stuff like shorter/longer rolls (shorter takes less time!), jump height, +n jump(bullet), slide duration/speed.

Thirdly, why just 15%?! It irks me so much. Like, what is 15%? When I mod my frame I think: "yeah, I need to run 1.24543% faster". Seriously, just slap (Primed) Rush already (45%) 30% sprint speed. Mods are for fine tuning IF YOU WANT. Shards should be good from 1 shard. At least don't do 1/2 of non-damage mod like Rush stuff...

56 minutes ago, Probably_Asleep said:

• There was an option to grant +10% Ability Range (+15% if Tauforged)

Maybe.

57 minutes ago, Probably_Asleep said:

• There was an option to grant +10% Ability Efficiency (+15% if Tauforged)

Maybe. Another case of "yeah I need 2-3 mods". Like, I have Inaros P with base 190 energy. I want to cast 4th more often. I have no mod space (maybe I will remove 1 from 3 augments) and 2 (maybe 3) shard's slots.

Azure give me 50/75 per shard. Slotting 2x normal would give me 1x cast. 2x Tau would give me 2 (missing 10 from 200 from base). So in total, normal - 2, tau 3.

20% (2 normal shards) efficiency would give me 2 casts. 30% (2x tau) would still give me 2 casts (20 missing energy).

 

If it would be 15%/22.5% then it would be better.

From above, 30% (2 normal shard) would give me 2 casts. 45% (2x tau) would give me 3 casts.

With 15% x5 you can max efficiency. With tau you can overcome negative duration. I think it would be "fine".

1 hour ago, Probably_Asleep said:

•  
• I already use Topaz Archon Shards, I love them

I honestly don't see it useful in most cases.

Quote

Gain 1 (2) Health per enemy killed with  Blast Damage. Max 300 (450) Health.

Blast is not nice status. I could pick Heat (armor strip), and cold for CC (eximus) and arcane/mods that depends on cold. Does blast have any "blasty" mods/arcanes? Maybe with change to blast damage/proc it would change.

Quote

• •  
• Regenerate +5 (+7.5) Shields when you kill an enemy with  Blast Damage.
  • Does not generate Overshields.
  • Does not apply when Shield Gating occurs; players must wait for shields to recharge for the effect to apply.
  • Currently provides shields on every hit on an enemy with  Blast damage, despite the description of the shard stating "kill".

I can get behind not getting Overshields but not regenerating shield when you hit shield gate kills it for me.

Quote

• •  
• Gain +10% (+15%) Ability Damage on enemies affected by  Radiation Status.

Another great idea like with Archon - let's make it for small part of roster. At least Violet shard have synergy with other shards:

Quote

Gain +30% (+45%) Primary  Electricity Damage. Gain an additional +10% (+15%) per Crimson, Azure, or Violet Archon Shard equipped.

Not to mention that it's pretty much useless with low number of shards or lack of tau. In such cases just slap strength. You would buff other stuff as well.

Horrible design.

Quote

Increase Secondary Critical Chance by 1% (1.5%) every time you kill an enemy affected by  Heat Status. Max 50% (75%).

• Critical Chance bonus is additive with similar buffs such as  Pistol Gambit
• Bonus is reset upon consuming a revive.
• Critical Chance gained on kill and Maximum Critical Chance bonus stacks with each shard embedded for this bonus. For example, a Tauforged and a normal shard embedded in the same Warframe will grant a per-kill bonus of +2.5%, resulting in a maximum of 125%.

This is better but still "meh".

I like that it just needs "affected" nto just "by X". like with blasty stuff. Even 50 kills is ok.

However it's another case "more or don't bother". 50% seems high... till you see it's additive to mods like Pistol gambit. So you get 25% cc? 12.5% more. Resulting in 37.5% CC. Fantastic? I think it's bad. Normal Pistol gambit gives you 120% and prime 187%. You need at least 2-3 normal and 2 tau.

6 minutes ago, Xylena_Lazarow said:

1 hour ago, Probably_Asleep said:

There was an option to grant +10% Ability Range (+15% if Tauforged)

This leads to 355% range builds: good or bad for the game?

Depends on frame but probably lots of frame would need some "range pass" like capping range or something.

[L3512]

11 minutes ago, Xylena_Lazarow said:

This leads to 355% range builds: good or bad for the game?

Unnecessary and somewhat balanced by opportunity costs so wouldn't be the end of the world. However IMO range is fine where it is.

[Traumtulpe]

2 hours ago, Probably_Asleep said:

1. There was an option to grant +10% Ability Range (+15% if Tauforged)
2. There was an option to grant +10% Ability Efficiency (+15% if Tauforged)
3. There was an option to grant +15% Sprint Speed (+22.5% if Tauforged)
4. There was an option to add +15% (+22.5% if Tauforged) "Critical Chance" to Abilities (multiplies final ability damage by 2)
5. Any of the above
6. I already use Topaz Archon Shards, I love them

22.5% crit chance for abilities would see plenty use.

15% sprint speed is terrible.

15% ability efficiency would see lots of use.

10% range is pretty good.

[KitMeHarder]

5 hours ago, Probably_Asleep said:

There was an option to grant +10% Ability Range (+15% if Tauforged)

I don't think DE will ever add the ability to permanently increase our range stat again (it's been almost 7 years since last time), nor do I think they should... unless....

The only way I see them doing it is if they make 300% the stat cap for range (fissure buff would still double it), just like efficiency is 175%. But that's still not enough IMO, as any build that wants range is automatically locked into equipping at least 2 topaz shards; And that kinda defeats the purpose of shards/takes the fun out of it. So we'd need Primed Stretch/Archon Stretch buffed first (with them at +82.5% range, and not some funky scaling like Primed Pressure Point). Then I'd be all for range being added to shards.

Edited June 7 by KitMeHarder

[Fred_Avant_2019]

Dunno, casting speed, strength, duration, extra corro stacks and energy capacity are the only stats I really care about on shards really.

Efficiency means I get to not use Fleeting Expertise.

Extra range means I get to not use Overextended.

 

Imo sprint speed should already be part of the parkour speed one.

As for crits on abilities I'm not sure. Some already work with crits, gotta figure out how it would temper with that.

[Venus-Venera]

vor 11 Stunden schrieb Probably_Asleep:

1. There was an option to grant +10% Ability Range (+15% if Tauforged)
2. There was an option to grant +10% Ability Efficiency (+15% if Tauforged)
3. There was an option to grant +15% Sprint Speed (+22.5% if Tauforged)
4. There was an option to add +15% (+22.5% if Tauforged) "Critical Chance" to Abilities (multiplies final ability damage by 2)
5. Any of the above
6. I already use Topaz Archon Shards, I love them

definitely. something like that brings more advantages than seasonal crits in orange or ability str in red.
and maybe harrow will finally get energy support spec. because at the moment you have to give up damage for it.

[Probably_Asleep]

18 hours ago, Xylena_Lazarow said:

This leads to 355% range builds: good or bad for the game?

I'd be happy to get an explanation on why that's a bad thing. It's theoretically possible to get 610% (if someone is fortunate enough to have an Arcane Helm on Mag while running a Void Fissure mission). And even without the obsolete helmets and fissures, with a Helminth Invigoration it's possible to get to 380% for any frame on all missions (for a week). So it's not like this would be adding much to the game that's not there already. It would extend those numbers to 760% & 455%, but does that exceed any threshold that breaks the game?

 

18 hours ago, quxier said:

1. All damage? Isn't it just +10/15% strength but just 0.5x better? I wouldn't bother.
   First it would be probably calculated like: "base strength/damage" * mods/arcanes + N% chance for "base strength/damage". If damage came after mods/arcanes/stuffs then it would be too good compared to "on status +n ability damage"
2. You would require 4 normal or 3 tau making it... ugh... bad.
3. *take Probably asleep to the shelter so they cannot listen mean words*
4. First, I would start with Sprint speed and slap parkour for topaz or other shards. Why, oh why, when you just want sprint speed you have whole pack of stuff?!  I want to run faster not roll into the moon. Horrible design.
5. Secondly, I would add other stuff like shorter/longer rolls (shorter takes less time!), jump height, +n jump(bullet), slide duration/speed.
6. Thirdly, why just 15%?! It irks me so much. Like, what is 15%? When I mod my frame I think: "yeah, I need to run 1.24543% faster". Seriously, just slap (Primed) Rush already (45%) 30% sprint speed. Mods are for fine tuning IF YOU WANT. Shards should be good from 1 shard. At least don't do 1/2 of non-damage mod like Rush stuff...
7. Maybe.
8. Maybe. Another case of "yeah I need 2-3 mods". Like, I have Inaros P with base 190 energy. I want to cast 4th more often. I have no mod space (maybe I will remove 1 from 3 augments) and 2 (maybe 3) shard's slots.
   Azure give me 50/75 per shard. Slotting 2x normal would give me 1x cast. 2x Tau would give me 2 (missing 10 from 200 from base). So in total, normal - 2, tau 3.
   20% (2 normal shards) efficiency would give me 2 casts. 30% (2x tau) would still give me 2 casts (20 missing energy).
   If it would be 15%/22.5% then it would be better.
   From above, 30% (2 normal shard) would give me 2 casts. 45% (2x tau) would give me 3 casts.
   With 15% x5 you can max efficiency. With tau you can overcome negative duration. I think it would be "fine".
9. I honestly don't see it useful in most cases.
10. Blast is not nice status. I could pick Heat (armor strip), and cold for CC (eximus) and arcane/mods that depends on cold. Does blast have any "blasty" mods/arcanes? Maybe with change to blast damage/proc it would change.
11. I can get behind not getting Overshields but not regenerating shield when you hit shield gate kills it for me.
12. Another great idea like with Archon - let's make it for small part of roster. At least Violet shard have synergy with other shards:
13. Not to mention that it's pretty much useless with low number of shards or lack of tau. In such cases just slap strength. You would buff other stuff as well.
    Horrible design.
14. This is better but still "meh".
    I like that it just needs "affected" nto just "by X". like with blasty stuff. Even 50 kills is ok.
    However it's another case "more or don't bother". 50% seems high... till you see it's additive to mods like Pistol gambit. So you get 25% cc? 12.5% more. Resulting in 37.5% CC. Fantastic? I think it's bad. Normal Pistol gambit gives you 120% and prime 187%. You need at least 2-3 normal and 2 tau.

quxier!

1. I should think it would be multiplicative, probably resting in the faction variable so it's not overpowered with Roar, but calculated after most over factors.
2. I'm only speculating here, but DE seems to have an unspoken rule that 4 Archon Slots replace roughly 1 Mod Slot.
3. Haha!
4. I also prefer Sprint over Parkour! I like a little extra Parkor, but there's a definite limit that becomes counterproductive. But I love any amount of Sprint!
5. This feels familiar. I think we've talked before how it would be nice to separate the movement attributes into Accessibility options or an alternate Mod space.
6. This goes back to that 4 shards = 1 mod rule (which is in no way concrete); but yeah I agree that it's better for a shard to be useful on it's own w/o being TF.
7. Yes!
8. I also like running these kinds of calculations. I remember when I realized that Fleeting Expertise gives just about as many casts as Primed Flow, but with much quicker refueling. It would be nice as a +15% (+22.5%) though because that could let you hit the 75% cap with just Streamline and two TF shards.
9. Same
10. I'm hoping Blast will be useful with Jade Shadows. I've got another 10 days to feel optimistic!
11. Ya I don't think anyone could ever find the shield regen perk useful. Just slapping some Negative Recharge Delay and Positive Recharge Speed makes non-broken shields repair super quickly anyway. I was super bummed by this nerf when it happened because it was such a fun survival strategy.
12. Agreed. I wasn't happy about the Archon mods being element specific.
13. While I'm especially salty about Topaz I'll admit the Purple also gets little use in my arsenal. I like the Green's Corrosive effect, so I'll use it once in a while.
14. I think DE decides on the efficacy of their shards by assuming someone will put 5 TF of the same perk, which in this case would be 375% Critical Chance. Then add that with Mods and Arcanes and you can get your secondary up to 1,195% Critical Chance. That has a 21% chance of reaching 5th-Tier Red-Level Crits. And with Crit Dmg Mods that would be a grand total of ~425,574.9x Damage. Which means even if you got a Riven that reduced the base damage down to 3, it would still deal >1million damage. But if you can get your pre-crit damage to anything above 5,046, then you'll be hitting the ~2.1 Billion Integer Limit. (Which I think can be done with a combination of Mods, Roar, and elemental weakness bonuses; I'd say multishot but that splits the damage into separate displays)
    But that's just playing with numbers. I agree with you that it's a useless perk when it's additive and something you have to build up through conditional kills.

 

17 hours ago, Traumtulpe said:

22.5% crit chance for abilities would see plenty use.

15% sprint speed is terrible.

15% ability efficiency would see lots of use.

10% range is pretty good.

I love seeing the differences of opinion here! It just goes to show how varied Warframe's playstyle can be.

 

13 hours ago, KitMeHarder said:

I don't think DE will ever add the ability to permanently increase our range stat again (it's been almost 7 years since last time), nor do I think they should... unless....

The only way I see them doing it is if they make 300% the stat cap for range (fissure buff would still double it), just like efficiency is 175%. But that's still not enough IMO, as any build that wants range is automatically locked into equipping at least 2 topaz shards; And that kinda defeats the purpose of shards/takes the fun out of it. So we'd need Primed Stretch/Archon Stretch buffed first (with them at +82.5% range, and not some funky scaling like Primed Pressure Point). Then I'd be all for range being added to shards.

So this is piggybacking off of my question to Xylena_Lazarow, but what's killing the Range enthusiasm? As I said above, we can all get 380% right now (if an Invigoration is available) and I've never seen anyone complain about how the game is unplayable whenever that happens.

And I'm in no way trying to be argumentative here; I'm just sincerely curious. I only play solo and as Mag, so my experience is niche. Does high range make Squad play terrible? Or is there some frame-specific exploit that would became too insane when going from 380% to 455%?

 

11 hours ago, Fred_Avant_2019 said:

Dunno, casting speed, strength, duration, extra corro stacks and energy capacity are the only stats I really care about on shards really.

Efficiency means I get to not use Fleeting Expertise.

Extra range means I get to not use Overextended.

 

Imo sprint speed should already be part of the parkour speed one.

As for crits on abilities I'm not sure. Some already work with crits, gotta figure out how it would temper with that.

This got me wondering if the reason they don't have shards for Range/Efficiency is because you could instead use Corrupted Mods and then compensate against their negatives with red shards.

Agreed that Amber should have Parkour/Sprint together. I mean, Amar's Anguish does that, and Amar is an Archon... (although I see that Nira's Anguish only does Parkour, and Amber comes from Nira...).

 

8 hours ago, Venus-Venera said:

definitely. something like that brings more advantages than seasonal crits in orange or ability str in red.
and maybe harrow will finally get energy support spec. because at the moment you have to give up damage for it.

I like the phrase "seasonal crits"

And today's weather forecast: FIRE RAINING DOWN FROM THE SKY!!!

[quxier]

2 hours ago, Probably_Asleep said:

21 hours ago, Xylena_Lazarow said:

This leads to 355% range builds: good or bad for the game?

I'd be happy to get an explanation on why that's a bad thing. It's theoretically possible to get 610% (if someone is fortunate enough to have an Arcane Helm on Mag while running a Void Fissure mission). And even without the obsolete helmets and fissures, with a Helminth Invigoration it's possible to get to 380% for any frame on all missions (for a week). So it's not like this would be adding much to the game that's not there already. It would extend those numbers to 760% & 455%, but does that exceed any threshold that breaks the game?

You are forgetting that every bigger range have some cons:

- Overextended have -60% strength

- Inviboration is only for week, you need either be lucky (certain frame + range buff) or you need 10 invigoration (3-4 weeks) and get range buffs. Realistically that's probably month+

- Fissure buff is only for fissures. It's random. It last for small duration (depending on relic level afair).

You could get such high range but realistically speaking you will go lower. Not everyone build for example may be ok with negative strength of Overextended.

Range shards would potentially raise AVERAGE range level of builds. Is this bad? I have no idea.

2 hours ago, Probably_Asleep said:

1. I think DE decides on the efficacy of their shards by assuming someone will put 5 TF of the same perk, which in this case would be 375% Critical Chance.

I just hate that kind of design. Why bother with 5 X perk number choices where your available choices are much, much lower. They should make it like:

- can put max 2 shards of same perk

- 1 shard give big improvement (that you can clearly see, but not too much)

- 2nd shard would give you something closer to "overpowered" (not too much)

That way you would at least have some variety. Much more than nowadays.

... I think I've made topic about it but I couldn't find it.

[Probably_Asleep]

36 minutes ago, quxier said:

You are forgetting that every bigger range have some cons:
- Overextended have -60% strength
- Inviboration is only for week, you need either be lucky (certain frame + range buff) or you need 10 invigoration (3-4 weeks) and get range buffs. Realistically that's probably month+
- Fissure buff is only for fissures. It's random. It last for small duration (depending on relic level afair).
You could get such high range but realistically speaking you will go lower. Not everyone build for example may be ok with negative strength of Overextended.
Range shards would potentially raise AVERAGE range level of builds. Is this bad? I have no idea.

The last sentence got an lol out of me. It was like "Ah, but you forget THESE points... which may be irrelevant."

38 minutes ago, quxier said:

I just hate that kind of design. Why bother with 5 X perk number choices where your available choices are much, much lower. They should make it like:
- can put max 2 shards of same perk
- 1 shard give big improvement (that you can clearly see, but not too much)
- 2nd shard would give you something closer to "overpowered" (not too much)
That way you would at least have some variety. Much more than nowadays.
... I think I've made topic about it but I couldn't find it.

While I feel the same way, I'm not dismissing the possibility that this might be the subtle effects of power creep warping our way of thinking.

Rewind the clock back to September 6th, 2022. Mods were they only way we could increase most of these factors. (And some Arcanes, but that's a different discussion) For years people had been begging for some way of getting extra Mod space. "Can we get a separate Mod page for mobility?" "Could we get a system to make custom Amalgam Mods?" "Could we get Riven Mods for Warframes?" We all saw the limits of what we could do, and we all were looking for a way to push past that limit somehow. Even if it was just one extra Mod slot, we'd have been happy.

Then September 7th, 2022 rolls around, and Archon Shards are introduced. Mod-free boosts to Warframe and Weapon stats!? Are you kidding me!? We get to break past the limit finally!? It was a celebration just to see stats that had been impossible for years. The new Archon Shard system effectively gave us that one extra Mod slot.

But today is 1 year, 9 months later, and we're used to it. Now when we talk about upgraded Archon Shards, it only feels like we're talking about making changes to 1/5th of a mod slot. Is this a matter of perspective? Has the power creep warped our appreciation for what was at one time a cherished and impossible gain? I have no idea.

[KitMeHarder]

6 hours ago, Probably_Asleep said:

So this is piggybacking off of my question to Xylena_Lazarow, but what's killing the Range enthusiasm? As I said above, we can all get 380% right now (if an Invigoration is available) and I've never seen anyone complain about how the game is unplayable whenever that happens.

And I'm in no way trying to be argumentative here; I'm just sincerely curious. I only play solo and as Mag, so my experience is niche. Does high range make Squad play terrible? Or is there some frame-specific exploit that would became too insane when going from 380% to 455%?

Before we start and to put it out there, I am a very large proponent for "power fantasy" and the Demigod-like power we embody.... But there are limits for various reasons.

First, some clarifications.

• I said "permanent" range increases, so Invigorations don't count towards our true max moddable range stat. They're short lived "crazy fun" that we have little control over, just like fissure buffs. (I am also not a fan of Invigorations in general.)
• Almost no frames go past the 280% cap. We only have Loki, Mag, and Banshee afaik. So personally I'd either buff their base ranges to compensate and/or make some of them exceptions.

Now to answer your question.

• People 100% do ceaselessly complain about nuke frames all the time. Personally I think their complaints are bologna 99% of the time, but there is already a non-insignificant portion of the community that complains about the range we already do have.
  • And you may not see players complaining about Invigorations specifically, but that's because you almost never see people with invigorations in mission. Even if you do, it may not be a range invig (and the frame may not already have 280% range).
• I like our Demigod power fantasy, but there are still limits. IMO the sweet spot for endgame ability nuking feels to be around 50m, and we already have some frames pushing that. If you start to go significantly past this, you begin to suck all of the "interaction" out of the game... for just yourself, let alone other players. The game would start tipping the scale from "easy but interactive" to now being "easy and monotonous". You'd kill enemies so far from you that you might as well just run an auto-clicker, because it's not like you're going to engage with the enemies anyway.
• Don't forget that range doesn't scale linearly. It has squared scaling for area and cubic scaling for volume.
  • 280->355 isn't just a 26.8% total increase.
  • It's a 60.7% increase in area.
  • And a 103.8% increase in volume.
• And then there is finally my other point of that it will completely kill shard choice for any frame that already builds for 200%+ range. Those frames will more-or-less be locked into equipping 5 range shards, as that's just how powerful range is.

 

And I'll ask you this. If range shouldn't be capped at 300%, than what should the cap be? And if there should be no cap, why don't we just get rid of the efficiency cap as well? Should we be able to put 3 mods on our frame and then cast infinitely and without energy? (People like to joke that we have infinite energy now, but it'd be nothing compared to this.)

Edited June 8 by KitMeHarder

[Probably_Asleep]

8 hours ago, KitMeHarder said:

_Fantasy
Before we start and to put it out there, I am a very large proponent for "power fantasy" and the Demigod-like power we embody.... But there are limits for various reasons.

First, some clarifications.

• _Temporary
  I said "permanent" range increases, so Invigorations don't count towards our true max moddable range stat. They're short lived "crazy fun" that we have little control over, just like fissure buffs. (I am also not a fan of Invigorations in general.)
• _Universality
  Almost no frames go past the 280% cap. We only have Loki, Mag, and Banshee afaik. So personally I'd either buff their base ranges to compensate and/or make some of them exceptions.

Now to answer your question.

• _Community
  People 100% do ceaselessly complain about nuke frames all the time. Personally I think their complaints are bologna 99% of the time, but there is already a non-insignificant portion of the community that complains about the range we already do have.
  • _Probability
    And you may not see players complaining about Invigorations specifically, but that's because you almost never see people with invigorations in mission. Even if you do, it may not be a range invig (and the frame may not already have 280% range).
• _Monotony
  I like our Demigod power fantasy, but there are still limits. IMO the sweet spot for endgame ability nuking feels to be around 50m, and we already have some frames pushing that. If you start to go significantly past this, you begin to suck all of the "interaction" out of the game... for just yourself, let alone other players. The game would start tipping the scale from "easy but interactive" to now being "easy and monotonous". You'd kill enemies so far from you that you might as well just run an auto-clicker, because it's not like you're going to engage with the enemies anyway.
• _Geometry
  Don't forget that range doesn't scale linearly. It has squared scaling for area and cubic scaling for volume.
  • 280->355 isn't just a 26.8% total increase.
  • It's a 60.7% increase in area.
  • And a 103.8% increase in volume.
• _Popularity
  And then there is finally my other point of that it will completely kill shard choice for any frame that already builds for 200%+ range. Those frames will more-or-less be locked into equipping 5 range shards, as that's just how powerful range is.

_Infinity
And I'll ask you this. If range shouldn't be capped at 300%, than what should the cap be? And if there should be no cap, why don't we just get rid of the efficiency cap as well? Should we be able to put 3 mods on our frame and then cast infinitely and without energy? (People like to joke that we have infinite energy now, but it'd be nothing compared to this.)

_Fantasy
I'll start with thanking you for taking the time to go into more detail about this; it's a well thought out analysis.

_Temporary
I'm also not a fan of the way Invigorations work. I didn't read up on it before I got it and installed it, and my imagination vs the reality was SO different. The in-game description reads:
"Allows The Helminth to inject a Warframe with an invigoration. Invigorations temporarily increase a Warframe's capabilities."
And so naturally I thought it would be something like spending some resources to get a few hours boost to some stat. But NOPE! Not even close!

_Universality
Fair and noted!

_Community
First time I've seen someone use the word bologna on this forum. Not sure if that mean's I just haven't been in the right circles, but all the same I'm a fan of word variety.
I did half expect this as the initial answer. While I don't play in a squad because I like play games to escape human interaction, it didn't take much imagination to suppose what would happen in a situation where everyone wants to contribute but one player removes that possibility.

_Probability
That makes sense, a momentary craziness is much more tolerable than a permanent annoyance. We had my sister in law stay with us and my wife was dealing with it ok until her sister started asking if it could be a permanent arrangement because she didn't want to deal with the hassle of apartment shopping. That's when the siblings started fighting like siblings.

_Monotony
Also reasonable. I've heard that Octavia isn't played despite her potential to be permanently invisible and highly scalable solely due to the monotony of the playstyle (ironic considering she's a music frame). Because I only play Mag, the abilities I'm used to require a lot of mental exertion. Choosing when, where, and how to apply abilities is an action puzzle that I find very engaging, but none of her abilities are meant to kill by themselves. I still need to see, shoot, strip, and stockpile while also constantly monitoring all elements of the UI. So it's hard to imagine high range being a problem for my frame, but I was anticipating that wouldn't hold true for every frame.

_Geometry
Believe it or not I did think of that. I even googled nuclear bomb blast radii because I was going to make an illustration. (Then I remembered I'm doing this on my work computer and thought I should probably not go too far down that rabbit hole)
And while I do agree with math, I think circumstances kind of negate this point. The difference between the area of a circle and the volume of a sphere aren't going to matter unless you have a swarm of bees forming an alliance with rats and moles to attack you from all 3 dimensions. An argument could be made that more affected coordinates result in higher CPU draw, but games should be optimized to process on an entity-by-entity basis. Of course I don't know how Warframe is constructed though so I could be completely wrong about that.

_Popularity
I see this as both a good and bad thing. Bad obviously because the existence of an S-Tier anything lowers the value of everything else. But also good because these should be S-Tier items! They're combined Archon Shards! At the very least they should be better than the two shards you had to spend to get it.

_Infinity
On the first question, I think the cap shouldn't be on the percentage, but instead on the effect itself. With Mods, Shards (fantasy TF-Topaz x5), Arcane Helm, Invigoration, and Fissure, Mag should be able to get to 960%, which would make her bubble with a radius of 48m. Obviously a big bubble! But it's still only about as big as other already-existing abilities that can nuke a room. So let's just say that all offensive abilities get capped at a 40m radius. If someone has enough percentage to put them over that, it gets ignored. But for non-offensive abilities like Golden Instinct, it can get as big as you want. That would be my preference. Then the abilities that already start at a high base wouldn't encourage modding much range, but the low-base abilities could be elevated to match the other wide AoE scales.
But now about the efficiency thing. While of course I'd love to 200% Efficiency (or even >200% Efficiency so I get energy back from using abilities), I think 75% is reasonable. Furthermore I'd say it's an apples to oranges comparison with Range. Getting to "infinite casts" would only take 100 efficiency points from Mods, but getting to "infinite range" would be impossible even if DE let us stack as many of the same Mod as we wanted on top of each other. ^{There's a big difference between the race to zero vs the race to infinity. And it would be incomparable in a practical sense as well. Efficiency has an upward curve in its return; 100 to 101 is just a 1% savings, whereas 198 to 199 is 50% savings, and the next percent becomes vertical toward infinity. Range on the other hand is a diminishing return; 100 to 101 increases range by 1%, whereas 200 to 201 increases range by 0.5%, and the only infinite percentage would be the difference between 0 and 1 Range.} (Sorry, the numbers got to me)

[KitMeHarder]

25 minutes ago, Probably_Asleep said:

And while I do agree with math, I think circumstances kind of negate this point. The difference between the area of a circle and the volume of a sphere aren't going to matter unless you have a swarm of bees forming an alliance with rats and moles to attack you from all 3 dimensions.

Which does happen. Most modern defense/interception maps and Circuit maps often have three or more layers to them. There's also the Entrati Santum, which often has two or more. The new Ascension mode is coming and bringing more verticality to WF than ever.

29 minutes ago, Probably_Asleep said:

I see this as both a good and bad thing. Bad obviously because the existence of an S-Tier anything lowers the value of everything else. But also good because these should be S-Tier items!

I agree, but I still don't think they should be the end-all-be-all. Thus why I added the cap and Primed Stretch. That way they'd be extremely powerful shards, but they wouldn't be the only option.

Do you consider your efficiency shards S-tier? We already reach the cap without them, if so. What's the difference?

31 minutes ago, Probably_Asleep said:

I think the cap shouldn't be on the percentage, but instead on the effect itself. With Mods, Shards (fantasy TF-Topaz x5), Arcane Helm, Invigoration, and Fissure, Mag should be able to get to 960%, which would make her bubble with a radius of 48m. Obviously a big bubble! But it's still only about as big as other already-existing abilities that can nuke a room. So let's just say that all offensive abilities get capped at a 40m radius.

• I disagree. I'd much rather just buff the non-nuke abilities' base range if they really need it instead of adding an arbitrary cap per ability.
• And who's to say what's a nuke ability and what's not?
  • I.E. in DE's mind Tragedy's mere 6,500 damage is a nuke even if enemies don't have statuses on them, thus the nerf.
  • Abilities like Null Star weren't nukes until they got augments.
  • Rhino Stomp isn't a nuke at level 100, but it is at level 25.
  • While it can scale, basically no one complains about Thermal Sunder nuking high level enemies, only the level 25-50 enemies in fissures.
    • TS is also an armor strip. If you cap it because of it's nuke nature, you just wrongfully screw over the people using it as a utility ability.
  • Etc...
• And with your Magnetize example of 48m... CC abilities can be just as bad or worse than nuke abilities. Enemies immobilized 3 tiles away with no way to kill them is worse than nuking them. As if your bubble is 48m, that means its pull radius is a monstrous 96m.
• Your 40m cap example would already nerf quite a few abilities currently in the game just at 280% range. 
  • You went from massively buffing everything in the game in my mind, to now nerfing multiple present day abilities.

46 minutes ago, Probably_Asleep said:

Getting to "infinite casts" would only take 100 efficiency points from Mods, but getting to "infinite range" would be impossible even if DE let us stack as many of the same Mod as we wanted on top of each other.

Effectively there isn't, as enemies can only spawn so far from you in most cases. And like was said above, while range may not "race to zero", it also doesn't linearly "race to infinity" like duration and strength does, it races exponentially.

[Probably_Asleep]

10 hours ago, KitMeHarder said:

Which does happen. Most modern defense/interception maps and Circuit maps often have three or more layers to them. There's also the Entrati Santum, which often has two or more. The new Ascension mode is coming and bringing more verticality to WF than ever.

Haha! Fair enough. I was sort of joking about the bees/rats/moles attack, but it's true there are some multi-level environments.

10 hours ago, KitMeHarder said:

Do you consider your efficiency shards S-tier? We already reach the cap without them, if so. What's the difference?

I wouldn't necessarily put either of them in S-Tier. I think their value depends on the frame and the mission. Even 175% efficiency is useless in most EDA levels that restrict power usage entirely or drain energy constantly, and Range isn't often included in Rhino builds. (I don't actually know much about other frames, so I did some digging through Overframe) I know with my Mag I would love them, but I'd only need one +15% efficiency while I would probably want multiple range boosts if I could get them.

10 hours ago, KitMeHarder said:

• I disagree. I'd much rather just buff the non-nuke abilities' base range if they really need it instead of adding an arbitrary cap per ability.
• And who's to say what's a nuke ability and what's not?
  • I.E. in DE's mind Tragedy's mere 6,500 damage is a nuke even if enemies don't have statuses on them, thus the nerf.
  • Abilities like Null Star weren't nukes until they got augments.
  • Rhino Stomp isn't a nuke at level 100, but it is at level 25.
  • While it can scale, basically no one complains about Thermal Sunder nuking high level enemies, only the level 25-50 enemies in fissures.
    • TS is also an armor strip. If you cap it because of it's nuke nature, you just wrongfully screw over the people using it as a utility ability.
  • Etc...
• And with your Magnetize example of 48m... CC abilities can be just as bad or worse than nuke abilities. Enemies immobilized 3 tiles away with no way to kill them is worse than nuking them. As if your bubble is 48m, that means its pull radius is a monstrous 96m.
• Your 40m cap example would already nerf quite a few abilities currently in the game just at 280% range. 
  • You went from massively buffing everything in the game in my mind, to now nerfing multiple present day abilities.

This is one of my most loved features of the forum, because I genuinely think it's a perfect system and it really excites me to see contradictory points of view.

So for starters, I'd say all abilities that deal damage should be capped to something (I said 40m but that's negotiable). Abilities that deal zero damage like Golden Instinct, Roar, and so on would not have a range cap.

I do agree that CC abilities could be used to troll the rest of the squad. I'm in the camp of letting players settle things among themselves at first. Usually any nerf to an ability because a few are using it to troll results in the majority of friendly players suffering from the nerf. But I won't deny that some things could get abused and if it becomes widespread there should be measures taken.

As I see it, the primary complaint against high-range abilities applies only to the abilities that start with high base ranges. Mag's Magnetize has a base range of 5, so multiplying that by 3 is only going to get it to 15. But her Crush is 18, so that would go up to 54. So to cap all range percentage would be punishing Magnetize much more than Crush. But to cap total effect range instead will punish only Crush (because Magnetize is probably never going to get to the effect cap). To me it makes sense that the "punishment" (nerf) should be placed on the abilities that cause complaint, and the low-range abilities should be left out of it.

To reach an effect cap of 40m for Magnetize, you'd need +700% Range, which is probably never going to happen; so if you're building around Magnetize then you'd be free to pile as much Range boost as you want. But to reach 40m on Crush you'd only need +60% Range; so if you wanted to build around Crush then you'd put 60% into Range and then use the rest of your Mod space for whatever else. It's a similar decision to Efficiency. You could put more than +75% on, but you just don't because you know it's a waste of Mod space.

10 hours ago, KitMeHarder said:

Effectively there isn't, as enemies can only spawn so far from you in most cases. And like was said above, while range may not "race to zero", it also doesn't linearly "race to infinity" like duration and strength does, it races exponentially.

That's a good point, but I do have one counter to this. If theoretically you were in a squad playing on separate ends of the map, then something like a 500m Nuke ability would nuke their room as well. To your point though that wouldn't apply in solo runs. But generally I think there's a clear mathematical difference between continuously adding to Efficiency vs Range.

[quxier]

On 2024-06-08 at 3:25 AM, Probably_Asleep said:

On 2024-06-08 at 2:34 AM, quxier said:

You are forgetting that every bigger range have some cons:
- Overextended have -60% strength
- Inviboration is only for week, you need either be lucky (certain frame + range buff) or you need 10 invigoration (3-4 weeks) and get range buffs. Realistically that's probably month+
- Fissure buff is only for fissures. It's random. It last for small duration (depending on relic level afair).
You could get such high range but realistically speaking you will go lower. Not everyone build for example may be ok with negative strength of Overextended.
Range shards would potentially raise AVERAGE range level of builds. Is this bad? I have no idea.

The last sentence got an lol out of me. It was like "Ah, but you forget THESE points... which may be irrelevant."

Well, I rarely use huge Range so I'm not sure how effective it's in DPS or something. So I don't want to waste anyones time talking with me.

On 2024-06-08 at 3:25 AM, Probably_Asleep said:

On 2024-06-08 at 2:34 AM, quxier said:

I just hate that kind of design. Why bother with 5 X perk number choices where your available choices are much, much lower. They should make it like:
- can put max 2 shards of same perk
- 1 shard give big improvement (that you can clearly see, but not too much)
- 2nd shard would give you something closer to "overpowered" (not too much)
That way you would at least have some variety. Much more than nowadays.
... I think I've made topic about it but I couldn't find it.

While I feel the same way, I'm not dismissing the possibility that this might be the subtle effects of power creep warping our way of thinking.

Rewind the clock back to September 6th, 2022. Mods were they only way we could increase most of these factors. (And some Arcanes, but that's a different discussion) For years people had been begging for some way of getting extra Mod space. "Can we get a separate Mod page for mobility?" "Could we get a system to make custom Amalgam Mods?" "Could we get Riven Mods for Warframes?" We all saw the limits of what we could do, and we all were looking for a way to push past that limit somehow. Even if it was just one extra Mod slot, we'd have been happy.

Then September 7th, 2022 rolls around, and Archon Shards are introduced. Mod-free boosts to Warframe and Weapon stats!? Are you kidding me!? We get to break past the limit finally!? It was a celebration just to see stats that had been impossible for years. The new Archon Shard system effectively gave us that one extra Mod slot.

But today is 1 year, 9 months later, and we're used to it. Now when we talk about upgraded Archon Shards, it only feels like we're talking about making changes to 1/5th of a mod slot. Is this a matter of perspective? Has the power creep warped our appreciation for what was at one time a cherished and impossible gain? I have no idea.

To be honest it's little bit more complicated.

 

First, while we get more power from other sources (arcanes, shards, grimoire/noctua etc) we get more and more powerful foes and more 'harder' content. When they have changed armor, we get Steel path (+ some gun arcanes some later). It was, however, addition. I have avoided SP for long time, trying some mission from time to time (I was solo at that time, that matters a lot). It was fine. Content were geared towards normal levels. Nowadays lots of stuff are geared towards SP+ level (SP circuit, E/DA, Netracells). It's no longer addition but more like necessity. Someone may said "it's optional". Great, so what I can do with normal content? Circuit - frames I already have. Netracells/EDA? Nope, go get base arcanes?

 

Secondly, it's not only about limits (how big your stuff is). It's about how builds "forces" you into schemas that you don't have a lot of free way to change... as well.  Some time ago it was basically checkboxes for energy, hp, ammo and few other stuffs. If you were not found of certain stuff or you have other (e.g. I like my Carrier so I cannot use Dethcube energy generator) then you had very few options for some stuff.

 

Thirdly, there are stuff that requires few things. For example to get more aimglide I need 2 mods: aim glide duration and negative gravity.

 

Fourthly, there are frames that have not great abilities that "requires" augment mods. You push limits (1 - 2 more slots) but you are forgetting that abilities basically push limits DOWN.

 

Lastly, you mentioned "mobility mods" (I would add other sources). Those are not in great state, imho. Like mentioned aimglide requires 2 mods. There is no short roll mods (there were!). We have bullet mods + damage/status are those strong enough to kill SP mobs (those weaker one at least)? OR at least have some good usage? And why it doesn't affect rolls (no elemental damage on rolls) but lost of things affect roll length (bigger)? You get 1 or more jump(s)... so what? It's nice and all but it doesn't change other gear. For example more jumps has 0 EFFECTS ON EXODIA CONTAGION. What about slides? Does it even matter for non Nezha/Mirage player? Why there is no Primed rush or other mod that give you like 45-60% sprint speed. Or arcane double back that requires you to do 3 different manouvers within 4 seconds to get full buff...

 

I wouldn't care Shards power creep. At least not big power creep. All it does it make modding little bit sane.

 

Edited June 9 by quxier
arrcane double back from the future

[Famecans]

off: Green corrosive tauforged is a waste.
the modifier that increases corrosive damage is not increased by green tauforged that increase corrosive ticks so no one needs to exceed 4 bonus ticks.

Edited June 11 by Famecans

[Probably_Asleep]

On 2024-06-08 at 6:10 PM, quxier said:

Well, I rarely use huge Range so I'm not sure how effective it's in DPS or something. So I don't want to waste anyones time talking with me.

Interesting! I LOVE me some Range! Which frames do you usually use?

On 2024-06-08 at 6:10 PM, quxier said:

First, while we get more power from other sources (arcanes, shards, grimoire/noctua etc) we get more and more powerful foes and more 'harder' content. When they have changed armor, we get Steel path (+ some gun arcanes some later). It was, however, addition. I have avoided SP for long time, trying some mission from time to time (I was solo at that time, that matters a lot). It was fine. Content were geared towards normal levels. Nowadays lots of stuff are geared towards SP+ level (SP circuit, E/DA, Netracells). It's no longer addition but more like necessity. Someone may said "it's optional". Great, so what I can do with normal content? Circuit - frames I already have. Netracells/EDA? Nope, go get base arcanes?

That's true, there's kind of a wasteland forming between the Early Game and the End Game. I do love the cinematic quests, but those take so much effort on DE's behalf to create.

On 2024-06-08 at 6:10 PM, quxier said:

Secondly, it's not only about limits (how big your stuff is). It's about how builds "forces" you into schemas that you don't have a lot of free way to change... as well.  Some time ago it was basically checkboxes for energy, hp, ammo and few other stuffs. If you were not found of certain stuff or you have other (e.g. I like my Carrier so I cannot use Dethcube energy generator) then you had very few options for some stuff.

I've noticed this with EDA especially. There's no build freedom; it feels more like there's a single correct answer to solve the problem rather than it being open ended. I have to dedicate a lot of space to survivability strategies that do not rely on abilities, which in turn means I need to mod my weapons to achieve a reasonable KPM without having the benefit of abilities. No abilities and no freedom in weapon choice really kills the fun for me; it was nice to figure it out once as a puzzle of sorts, but when every week it's just the same puzzle with the same basic solution.

On 2024-06-08 at 6:10 PM, quxier said:

Thirdly, there are stuff that requires few things. For example to get more aimglide I need 2 mods: aim glide duration and negative gravity.

I feel you on this one. I've found a lot of uses for a long zero gravity aim glide, but the dual mod cost is always felt. I wouldn't mind if the Aura mod that gave us +6 seconds glide duration also gave us zero gravity (in place of the -24% damage while airborne); although it's an aura slot so that would mean -400% glide on a full squad... maybe instead put +6 seconds onto the Aero Vantage mod...

On 2024-06-08 at 6:10 PM, quxier said:

Fourthly, there are frames that have not great abilities that "requires" augment mods. You push limits (1 - 2 more slots) but you are forgetting that abilities basically push limits DOWN.

ALSO feel you on this one. While I love Mag's abilities, her Augments are too useful to pass up in most builds. But at least Mag can get by without them if needed (I don't have any in my EDA builds). Other frames though are not as fortunate.

That's actually what prompted one of my other threads I think. I'd love for there to be an individual "Frame Campaign" mode that upon completing it you get to turn your augments into toggle-widgets instead that don't cost Mod space. And thereafter any new Augments becomes a toggle for you as soon as you obtain the Mod for it from a syndicate or wherever.

On 2024-06-08 at 6:10 PM, quxier said:

Lastly, you mentioned "mobility mods" (I would add other sources). Those are not in great state, imho. Like mentioned aimglide requires 2 mods. There is no short roll mods (there were!). We have bullet mods + damage/status are those strong enough to kill SP mobs (those weaker one at least)? OR at least have some good usage? And why it doesn't affect rolls (no elemental damage on rolls) but lost of things affect roll length (bigger)? You get 1 or more jump(s)... so what? It's nice and all but it doesn't change other gear. For example more jumps has 0 EFFECTS ON EXODIA CONTAGION. What about slides? Does it even matter for non Nezha/Mirage player? Why there is no Primed rush or other mod that give you like 45-60% sprint speed. Or arcane double back that requires you to do 3 different manouvers within 4 seconds to get full buff...

Actually for rolling, wouldn't it be great if they let you just cancel the roll midway through? Correct me if I'm wrong here, but the roll button isn't serving any purpose when you're in the roll animation itself, right? I'd love if a roll could be double-tapped to make short roll. Because ya Parkour Velocity really makes rolling insane at a certain point. It's like a superhero origin story where the main character is still getting used to their increased strength and speed.

It'd also be nice to have Exodia Contagion build with more mid-air jumps. I'd love to see the kind of numbers with Duviri Decrees. (Although actually I've never seen Zaws available in Duviri...)

I can see what you're saying though. The shards feel more needed as more content gets added. One could say that's just a Band-Aid solution to underlying problems, but that's sort of what power creep is; just a bunch of small changes and then little fixes to keep things sane enough. And shards do help with that.

 

1 hour ago, Famecans said:

off: Green corrosive tauforged is a waste.
the modifier that increases corrosive damage is not increased by green tauforged that increase corrosive ticks so no one needs to exceed 4 bonus ticks.

Adding on to this: I've confirmed in testing that using the Green Corrosive stack boost against Necramechs does nothing useful. Damage Attenuation prevents higher DPS anyway, but there's also a bug (if it's not intentional) where the Necramech won't lose more than 4-stacks worth of armor from Corrosive even if the UI shows 14 or more stacks near its health bar.

The +10 or more stacks do strip Acolyte armor fully, but there are plenty of other options for those guys.

[quxier]

1 hour ago, Probably_Asleep said:

On 2024-06-09 at 4:10 AM, quxier said:

Well, I rarely use huge Range so I'm not sure how effective it's in DPS or something. So I don't want to waste anyones time talking with me.

Interesting! I LOVE me some Range! Which frames do you usually use?

Xaku have more guns with 2nd.

In general I use little bit of range (e.g. Stretch and/or other 30% range mod).

Or with infusing helminth groupind abilities to make up their nerf (e.g. Nidus').

2 hours ago, Probably_Asleep said:

On 2024-06-09 at 4:10 AM, quxier said:

Thirdly, there are stuff that requires few things. For example to get more aimglide I need 2 mods: aim glide duration and negative gravity.

I feel you on this one. I've found a lot of uses for a long zero gravity aim glide, but the dual mod cost is always felt. I wouldn't mind if the Aura mod that gave us +6 seconds glide duration also gave us zero gravity (in place of the -24% damage while airborne); although it's an aura slot so that would mean -400% glide on a full squad... maybe instead put +6 seconds onto the Aero Vantage mod...

It wouldn't matter. Who goes aimglide? Only people that care about it.

2 hours ago, Probably_Asleep said:

On 2024-06-09 at 4:10 AM, quxier said:

Fourthly, there are frames that have not great abilities that "requires" augment mods. You push limits (1 - 2 more slots) but you are forgetting that abilities basically push limits DOWN.

ALSO feel you on this one. While I love Mag's abilities, her Augments are too useful to pass up in most builds. But at least Mag can get by without them if needed (I don't have any in my EDA builds). Other frames though are not as fortunate.

You can use frame without augments. My point is that by using certain abilities you feel something is missing. Like old Grendel/Pulverize. It was harder to move (slower acceleration) so you needed augment for "dash" (Catapult).

Or like with new augment for Dagath. Her 3rd function like free life after death. You go to "special state", get guratanteed hp after kill, go back and have this ability on cooldown. If you don't die you have basically passive. Augment will let you enter that state aka use the ability.

2 hours ago, Probably_Asleep said:

That's actually what prompted one of my other threads I think. I'd love for there to be an individual "Frame Campaign" mode that upon completing it you get to turn your augments into toggle-widgets instead that don't cost Mod space. And thereafter any new Augments becomes a toggle for you as soon as you obtain the Mod for it from a syndicate or wherever.

I may be wrong but they like augments, however bad they are, for us to use AND waste slots. There are augments that could be merged but we get some changes most of the cases.

2 hours ago, Probably_Asleep said:

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but the roll button isn't serving any purpose when you're in the roll animation itself, right? I'

Rolling gives you 75% damage reduction.

2 hours ago, Probably_Asleep said:

On 2024-06-09 at 4:10 AM, quxier said:

Lastly, you mentioned "mobility mods" (I would add other sources). Those are not in great state, imho. Like mentioned aimglide requires 2 mods. There is no short roll mods (there were!). We have bullet mods + damage/status are those strong enough to kill SP mobs (those weaker one at least)? OR at least have some good usage? And why it doesn't affect rolls (no elemental damage on rolls) but lost of things affect roll length (bigger)? You get 1 or more jump(s)... so what? It's nice and all but it doesn't change other gear. For example more jumps has 0 EFFECTS ON EXODIA CONTAGION. What about slides? Does it even matter for non Nezha/Mirage player? Why there is no Primed rush or other mod that give you like 45-60% sprint speed. Or arcane double back that requires you to do 3 different manouvers within 4 seconds to get full buff...

Actually for rolling, wouldn't it be great if they let you just cancel the roll midway through? Correct me if I'm wrong here, but the roll button isn't serving any purpose when you're in the roll animation itself, right? I'd love if a roll could be double-tapped to make short roll. Because ya Parkour Velocity really makes rolling insane at a certain point. It's like a superhero origin story where the main character is still getting used to their increased strength and speed.

It may be "me problem" but I believe rolls should be fast & quick to execute. Bullet jump are meant for long travel. Rolls on other hand should change your position only a little and return to normal state so you can continue shooting, normally. Having longer rolls or rolls that needs more complex actions (your double tap, cancel OR in game, while melee block + roll giving you shorter roll) is imho wrong approach.

ps. it reminds me of beginning of '100 days of warframe animation'. Excal was like this.

2 hours ago, Probably_Asleep said:

It'd also be nice to have Exodia Contagion build with more mid-air jumps. I'd love to see the kind of numbers with Duviri Decrees. (Although actually I've never seen Zaws available in Duviri...)

I don't think you can have them.

2 hours ago, Probably_Asleep said:

I can see what you're saying though. The shards feel more needed as more content gets added. One could say that's just a Band-Aid solution to underlying problems, but that's sort of what power creep is; just a bunch of small changes and then little fixes to keep things sane enough. And shards do help with that.

"Defining" power creep that way, I guess I agree with you.

[Gaxxian]

I'm just using 2 of those into my Yareli, and i don't see any other use for them. Maybe with some of those proposals they would be more interesting... but right now i see them as being pretty much useless. Even just changing them from +CC to +CD would help a lot.

The funniest thing is that those Topaz Archons are specially expensive given how the shards drops are weighted to make the red ones more rare.

 

Edited June 12 by Gaxxian

[KVenom]

В 07.06.2024 в 03:53, Probably_Asleep сказал:

1. There was an option to grant +10% Ability Range (+15% if Tauforged)
2. There was an option to grant +10% Ability Efficiency (+15% if Tauforged)
3. There was an option to grant +15% Sprint Speed (+22.5% if Tauforged)
4. There was an option to add +15% (+22.5% if Tauforged) "Critical Chance" to Abilities (multiplies final ability damage by 2)
5. Any of the above
6. I already use Topaz Archon Shards, I love them

IF THOSE APPEAR FOR ANY SHARDS - YES!

Including Yellow.

But hey, they are still usefull. As source of Orange/Green Shards and Natural talent replacements.

[KVenom]

В 11.06.2024 в 22:54, Famecans сказал:

off: Green corrosive tauforged is a waste.
the modifier that increases corrosive damage is not increased by green tauforged that increase corrosive ticks so no one needs to exceed 4 bonus ticks.

• Gain +10% (+15%) Ability Damage on enemies affected by  Corrosion Status.
  • Ability Damage bonus is a unique modifier, and is only given by Archon Shards.
  • Ability Damage bonus does not double dip on Status Damage caused by abilities.

This means ANY DIRECT FINAL ability damage is increased, as long as target has Corrosive stacks. Also it works per stack of status.

• Increase max stacks of  Corrosion Status by +2 (+3).
  • Increase is applied to Status Capped enemies.

And this just means more stacks. Usable for 2 things - armor strip AND the Green Shard above. Meaning taht instead of 100% bonis damage, your abilities will get 150% bonus damage, if your target has max Corrosive Stacks. That means naros, Hydroid, and all of the warframes that either have Exalted weapons or have some sort of good Status source, that can proc corrosion as AOE at good rate - your abilities get great damage.

[Probably_Asleep]

On 2024-06-11 at 4:37 PM, quxier said:

Xaku have more guns with 2nd.
In general I use little bit of range (e.g. Stretch and/or other 30% range mod).
Or with infusing helminth groupind abilities to make up their nerf (e.g. Nidus').
It wouldn't matter. Who goes aimglide? Only people that care about it.
You can use frame without augments. My point is that by using certain abilities you feel something is missing. Like old Grendel/Pulverize. It was harder to move (slower acceleration) so you needed augment for "dash" (Catapult).
Or like with new augment for Dagath. Her 3rd function like free life after death. You go to "special state", get guratanteed hp after kill, go back and have this ability on cooldown. If you don't die you have basically passive. Augment will let you enter that state aka use the ability.
I may be wrong but they like augments, however bad they are, for us to use AND waste slots. There are augments that could be merged but we get some changes most of the cases.
Rolling gives you 75% damage reduction.
It may be "me problem" but I believe rolls should be fast & quick to execute. Bullet jump are meant for long travel. Rolls on other hand should change your position only a little and return to normal state so you can continue shooting, normally. Having longer rolls or rolls that needs more complex actions (your double tap, cancel OR in game, while melee block + roll giving you shorter roll) is imho wrong approach.
ps. it reminds me of beginning of '100 days of warframe animation'. Excal was like this.
I don't think you can have them.
"Defining" power creep that way, I guess I agree with you.

Xaku, I can see that. Interesting DR, extra movement speed, lots of damage, and subsequent DR from void bubbles. As a Mag-main I can get behind Xaku's concept of bubbles and guns.

Agreed on the aim glide; I love it but I rarely see people talk about it. Probably because if people want aerial mobility they just bring Titania. My one-frame game pushes me to use discount versions of mechanics that have entire frames dedicated to it. (Not that I'm complaining, I enjoy exploring those niches)

Also agree on the augment comments. There's an obvious enthusiasm from DE about augments that you can see in their livestreams, and it's kind of humorous to me because it's clear that most of the community would prefer a rework over giving up Mod space. I think Augments make sense when they have pros and cons like Mag's "Magnetized Discharge" augment; I like the range/disarm, but I sometimes avoid it if I want to cast bubbles through bubbles (or bubbles on bubbles to maintain a defensive zone). But Augments do not make sense when they're just straight upgrades like Mag's "Fracturing Crush" augment; that increases casting speed and strips armor... when would someone not want that?

Rolling's DR is pretty nice. I meant though that the button itself doesn't do anything when you're mid-roll, so I think it's fine to add a roll-cancel feature to it. But to your point, long rolls don't serve much of a purpose when we have bullet jumping available. And actually bullet jumping can be cancelled with a double jump! So yeah, I think rolling could use some development attention.

I loved 100 Days of Warframe! My sense of humor is very much into the applying real life common sense to fantasy situations. Like just how many babies must Corpus be producing to keep up with even one player account? (Let alone tens of thousands of Tenno) There are likely days where 10-million Corpus die, but their operations aren't affected at all. Meanwhile here in reality, one pandemic cost us less than that and it very nearly crippled global society. So then I start going down this rabbit hole of speculating how a civilization spread throughout the solar system might be able to produce 10-million soldiers on a daily basis while also producing logistics, domestics, leadership, and civil service... anyway yes, I love that animation.

On 2024-06-12 at 12:53 AM, Gaxxian said:

I'm just using 2 of those into my Yareli, and i don't see any other use for them. Maybe with some of those proposals they would be more interesting... but right now i see them as being pretty much useless. Even just changing them from +CC to +CD would help a lot.

The funniest thing is that those Topaz Archons are specially expensive given how the shards drops are weighted to make the red ones more rare.

 

"The funniest thing" in a creepy sad-clown-face kind of way. Like: "They're useless! But the funny part is how expensive they are despite that! HAHAHaHahaha_haha..." *starts sobbing*

I'm also still a little miffed but the major nerf to the one useful perk the Topaz had. (The alternate way to shield gate) I'm 99% positive it actually was an intended mechanic until they saw how useful it could be and decided to kill it. There's no way the entire development team forgot to check if a shield generating feature had any relationship to shield gating. And they didn't have to nerf it as bad as they did. They could have at least made it something like "only applies to melee weapons" so that way you still have to be up close and personal with enemies and ranged attacks can take you out if you can't get close enough in time.

15 hours ago, KVenom said:

IF THOSE APPEAR FOR ANY SHARDS - YES!

Including Yellow.

But hey, they are still usefull. As source of Orange/Green Shards and Natural talent replacements.

I have a few Yellow installs for adding parkour velocity to my spy/Maroo builds. You know that Corpus Spy Vault that has the multi-story glass box in the center of an even larger room? You go in from the top and then dodge the lasers as you drop down one level at a time. Well anyway, with some TF Amber Shards, you can bullet jump upward and get to the top of the glass box in a single leap, which allows me to make it past all the security cameras and personnel during the invisibility duration of the Untraceable mod.

Very specific use case, but a use case nonetheless! Generally though I like having one frame dedicated to crazy far bullet jumps just so I can have some loadouts ready for missions like those where speed is more important than survival or combat.

[RyllusPurple]

I'd use them if 50 Stela wasn't so hard to get.