Let's talk Blast and Gas status.

[Traumtulpe]

14 minutes ago, Mr.Holyroller said:

feel free to correct me, but i spent like an hour in the simulacrum testing different weapons with blast and it just felt like complete trash.

If you oneshot the target, and proc Blast on that shot, you get the "decent damage explosion" with the lowest opportunity cost. At that point it's actually worth using to turn a hard hitting single target weapon into AoE, if you have a Panzer Vulpaphyla you should be onetapping (small) groups.

But that's really the only situation where I'd consider using it. And, again, it does basically nothing at all for your single target damage.

Edited June 19 by Traumtulpe

[Traumtulpe]

3 minutes ago, ominumi said:

So what does the Blast proc damage scale off of? Base damage of the weapon? Bane mods? Convoluted Inverse formula?

The basic proc deals about 12% of the damage of the hit that triggered it - that is functionally equal to "it does nothing". It says "30% of base damage" on it, so maybe it's excluding the elemental mods that are used to create Blast in the first place.

The "Blast proc killing shot" and "10 Blast procs within 1.5 seconds" explosions are dealing reasonable damage, but I have no clue how it calculates. It is a lot more than 10x one Blast proc, like *a lot* more. It does however depend on the weapon used, a primer will never accomplish anything by proccing Blast.

[Traumtulpe]

If I had to guess I'd say it's 30% of weapon damage excluding elementals for the regular proc, and 3000% for those special explosions. Since when using the Epitaph with no mods, I would get ~4 damage from the former, and ~400 from the latter.

Though keep in mind that the special explosions never apply to the target that had the proc on it, and have a tiny 5m range.

Edited June 19 by Traumtulpe

[ominumi]

3 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

If I had to guess I'd say it's 30% of weapon damage excluding elementals for the regular proc, and 3000% for those special explosions. Since when using the Epitaph with no mods, I would get ~4 damage from the former, and ~400 from the latter.

Though keep in mind that the special explosions never apply to the target that had the proc on it, and have a tiny 5m range.

My question still stands. How do we abuse the scaling? Silva & Aegis Prime can become pure blast. With tennokai heavy attack is possible for detonation. 

[Traumtulpe]

4 minutes ago, ominumi said:

How do we abuse the scaling?

I'd expect faction damage and Roar to apply. I'd also expect this to be completely pointless and irrelevant. Group up enemies and onetap one of them with 100% Blast proc chance, nothing else really matters.

Edited June 19 by Traumtulpe

[Tiltskillet]

33 minutes ago, ominumi said:

My question still stands. How do we abuse the scaling? Silva & Aegis Prime can become pure blast. With tennokai heavy attack is possible for detonation. 

It scales off of crit, faction damage (including Roar), weakspot modifiers, and vulnerabilities as expected.  It works much better than I'd expect with Xata's Whisper, and maybe this is bugged. (Although I don't know this ability well and am maybe missing something obvious.)   Grouping  and punch through / AoE are obviously going to be very good for it.  Defense strip and viral if one can get them go without saying.

Like gas, it doesn't scale off of its elemental mods.

Influence and beam weapons  do really well with it, but I'm undecided yet on whether it's better than the alternatives.  Blast is definitely an alternative though, which is fun to say after the last several years.

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

5 hours ago, TsukuyomiNoGeki said:

Aznvasion made a video about blast

Looks like it's bonkers on beam weapons

It has a very strong affinity with weapons with high fire rate and status. Beam weapons increase that effectiveness by adding multishot. The goal is to try getting to level 10 procs to trigger the AoE explosions as much and as long as possible. Blast hates armor but is effect against shields as each hit contributes to shield depletion. 

It's a fun, new way to try builds. Far from useless actually.

[Vitrica_Edge]

I think blast right now is indeed a very niche element, most things that clear fast with blast, e.g. Phantasma, Boar incarnon, Torid incarnon, are about equally if not more effective with Corrosive heat Corrosive cold Viral heat etc., only when enemies are very dense corrosive blast starts to perform better than the other ones. One interesting thing is Furis incarnon doing quite good with blast, likely because it is a beam with bonkers level of base damage, while also procs about 50 blasts per second. Multishot double-dipped by beams also contribute to this, and the fact that the immediate blast when stacked to 10 makes the status damage tick much faster than the 1-second interval for heat dots. So for endurance, heat is likely still more damage for Furis, but blast at lower levels from 100-500 ish, blast can be better crowd-clearing than other options. It is at best a side-grade and most of the time are not as strong as viral/corrosive.

Also I believe Aznvasionplays made a slight error in that Blast does not seem to scale with elemental mods. It calculates very much like slash dots, just base damage * damage mods * critical damage * 0.3 * bane^2.

With the snipers, it scales with headshot multipliers (no double-dipping unfortunately), but since it can trigger Xata's whisper, which double dips headshot multipliers, and seem to be able to deal the same headshot-buffed Xata hit to surrounding enemies. It can make any sniper that can proc status do very good crowd damage. The strongest option seem to be Sporothrix, important mods to use are Rifle elementalist, bane, and its nightwave augment.

Additionally, it also procs Toxic lash, which just means Saryn keeps winning.

Edited June 19 by Vitrica_Edge

[(XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA]

9 hours ago, Traumtulpe said:

If you oneshot the target, and proc Blast on that shot, you get the "decent damage explosion" with the lowest opportunity cost. At that point it's actually worth using to turn a hard hitting single target weapon into AoE, if you have a Panzer Vulpaphyla you should be onetapping (small) groups.

But that's really the only situation where I'd consider using it. And, again, it does basically nothing at all for your single target damage.

So.. I might try nataruk with the deadshot or whatever arcane for S#&$s and giggles. Still sounds niche though.

[Traumtulpe]

8 hours ago, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 said:

It has a very strong affinity with weapons with high fire rate and status. Beam weapons increase that effectiveness by adding multishot. The goal is to try getting to level 10 procs to trigger the AoE explosions as much and as long as possible. Blast hates armor but is effect against shields as each hit contributes to shield depletion.

I tried it and I strongly disagree. Damaging status procs are more effective on beam weapons than any other type of weapon, but that doesn't make Blast the type of status effect you want to use - Electricity and Heat (or Toxin as I've described above) are both better than Blast for beam weapons.

Edited June 20 by Traumtulpe

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

1 minute ago, Traumtulpe said:

I tried it and I strongly disagree. Damaging status procs are more effective on beam weapons than any other type of weapon, but that doesn't make Blast the type of status effect you want to use - Electricity and Heat (or Toxin as I've described above) are both better than Blast for beam weapons.

Then go ahead and use them. Honestly, I think you are fighting too hard on this bro. Let the discoveries happen. Just like how some players deeply regard gas, there will be players that dominate with blast. There's no real value in you saying it is useless, when there are others showing it is useful. 

[Traumtulpe]

1 minute ago, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 said:

There's no real value in you saying it is useless, when there are others showing it is useful.

I said it's useful for turning hard hitting single target weapons into AoE.

The thing is, I'm not talking out of my proverbial, or just slap Blast on a weapon and go "...uh, it kills things I guess, must be good then!" I actually try to understand how things work. And Blast is just less effective than other status effects most of the time. The big problem is that it doesn't seem to be able to damage the main target with the "10 stack explosion" - it appears to take the 10 individual procs as damage instead, which is so much less it might as well be zero.

[Traumtulpe]

Here's what I mean, see the 10 stack explosion dealing about 300 damage to the secondary target? And see it only dealing 3 damage times 10 to the main target? That's really not good.

[kamisama85]

This post was done as of the first post. As always.
I never understand why you start these posts.

You come in and complain about something new and then it's like you want to ask the public for advice.
But as soon as people start to offer suggestions or advice or proof with video or controlled testing, you shoot them all down and try to differentiate yourself as some kind of intellect in the space of video games, while the rest of us are just monkeys shooting guns ooga booga and we don't know any better. Nobody's proof is good enough for you since they didn't do it in your shoes, through your eyes, according to your burger king rules.

Please take your Warframe PHD and go quietly solve these issues yourself, since apparently you're big brained enough to be so blatantly closed minded in your facade of an open forum discussion. Instead of coming here for validations for your anger, post the solution next time and start the discussion there.

[Joylesstuna]

18 hours ago, TsukuyomiNoGeki said:

Aznvasion made a video about blast

Looks like it's bonkers on beam weapons

I watched his video too and got excited. Then I realized corrosive+heat kills just as fast. He doesn't explain how much weaker grineer are now. Blast looks great and strong again grineer, but so is almost every element now.

[Traumtulpe]

2 hours ago, kamisama85 said:

But as soon as people start to offer suggestions or advice or proof with video or controlled testing, you shoot them all down

You might have noticed that most people have not offered anything of the sort, and the few original insights in this thread seem to completely agree with me. See:

9 hours ago, Vitrica_Edge said:

I think blast right now is indeed a very niche element, most things that clear fast with blast, e.g. Phantasma, Boar incarnon, Torid incarnon, are about equally if not more effective with Corrosive heat Corrosive cold Viral heat etc., only when enemies are very dense corrosive blast starts to perform better than the other ones. One interesting thing is Furis incarnon doing quite good with blast, likely because it is a beam with bonkers level of base damage, while also procs about 50 blasts per second. Multishot double-dipped by beams also contribute to this, and the fact that the immediate blast when stacked to 10 makes the status damage tick much faster than the 1-second interval for heat dots. So for endurance, heat is likely still more damage for Furis, but blast at lower levels from 100-500 ish, blast can be better crowd-clearing than other options. It is at best a side-grade and most of the time are not as strong as viral/corrosive.

Also I believe Aznvasionplays made a slight error in that Blast does not seem to scale with elemental mods. It calculates very much like slash dots, just base damage * damage mods * critical damage * 0.3 * bane^2.

With the snipers, it scales with headshot multipliers (no double-dipping unfortunately), but since it can trigger Xata's whisper, which double dips headshot multipliers, and seem to be able to deal the same headshot-buffed Xata hit to surrounding enemies. It can make any sniper that can proc status do very good crowd damage. The strongest option seem to be Sporothrix, important mods to use are Rifle elementalist, bane, and its nightwave augment.

Additionally, it also procs Toxic lash, which just means Saryn keeps winning.

That is a very accurate and useful post, unlike yours.

Edited June 20 by Traumtulpe

[Traumtulpe]

5 hours ago, Traumtulpe said:

Here's what I mean, see the 10 stack explosion dealing about 300 damage to the secondary target? And see it only dealing 3 damage times 10 to the main target? That's really not good.

By the way, seeing as Blast now has a wiki entry - isn't that entry wrong? According to the wiki 10 Blast procs deal 300% weapon damage (or 10x one proc) within 5 meters, but this is not what happens in my testing at all. It looks as if it's 3000% damage (or 100x one proc).

This might be a bug actually. Just like how Blast is bugged with Tornado (infinite damage, just like Gas and Eletricity did before they got fixed).

(In case the numbers don't make sense to you: I have 100% status chance, 100% base Blast damage, and deal 10 damage per shot - this results in (slightly less than) 3 damage per Blast proc (as expected) and 300 damage on the 5m explosion, 10x more than stated in the wiki.)

Edited June 20 by Traumtulpe

[Traumtulpe]

Different weapon, using modded Blast damage this time: Same result.

Procs deal 5-12 damage (12 on crits), the 5m explosion deals around 1000 damage (10x times as much as 10 procs added up, or 3000% weapon damage).

[drnlmza]

2 hours ago, Traumtulpe said:

By the way, seeing as Blast now has a wiki entry - isn't that entry wrong? According to the wiki 10 Blast procs deal 300% weapon damage (or 10x one proc) within 5 meters, but this is not what happens in my testing at all. It looks as if it's 3000% damage (or 100x one proc).

It's a fan-maintained wiki, and it's in a lot of flux right now since there's a lot of stuff that needs to be updated because of the damage changes, so it's probably currently wrong.

 

I think it's just been updated based on the in game description "At 10 stacks or on death, stacks deal their damage simultaneously", but the patch notes describe the effect differently "an individually incurred Blast Status Effect deals a percentage of base-inflicted damage per stack-explosion and over 100% of base-inflicted damage for a full (10 stack) explosion.", so it looks like it the full stack explosion is supposed to be significantly higher than the 300% of just combining all the procs. That said, doing 10x that figure seems excessive, so there could also be a bug involved.

 

[Traumtulpe]

Wrong thread.

Edited June 21 by Traumtulpe

[TsukuyomiNoGeki]

Tried in simulacrum, looks decent. An alternative to gas cloud for highly packed enemies.

My 0 forma primer tenet cycron, once slapped frostbite, galvanized mods + crit mods was quite nice against SP gunners inside yareli's bubble.

Considering I still have 2 mod open slots, things might even be more interesting with corrosive damage + more reliable grouping ability (ensnare for example)

 

And inb4 "but electric damage". Yes, electric + viral is very nice too (tenet plinx my beloved), but you need armor stripping. since you can't build electric + corrosive

 

Edited June 21 by TsukuyomiNoGeki
Electric suggestion

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

On 2024-06-20 at 1:16 AM, kamisama85 said:

This post was done as of the first post. As always.
I never understand why you start these posts.

You come in and complain about something new and then it's like you want to ask the public for advice.
But as soon as people start to offer suggestions or advice or proof with video or controlled testing, you shoot them all down and try to differentiate yourself as some kind of intellect in the space of video games, while the rest of us are just monkeys shooting guns ooga booga and we don't know any better. Nobody's proof is good enough for you since they didn't do it in your shoes, through your eyes, according to your burger king rules.

Please take your Warframe PHD and go quietly solve these issues yourself, since apparently you're big brained enough to be so blatantly closed minded in your facade of an open forum discussion. Instead of coming here for validations for your anger, post the solution next time and start the discussion there.

But he just "doesn't see it"....lol.

[Traumtulpe]

9 hours ago, TsukuyomiNoGeki said:

Tried in simulacrum, looks decent. An alternative to gas cloud for highly packed enemies.

Yeah, if you pack enemies into a tight ball Blast will delete them. As will Gas and Electricity, so nothing new there.

If you don't pack enemies into a tight ball you'll notice that Blast status basically deals no damage at all to the target you're putting the procs on. Gas, and even moreso Electricity still damage the target the procs are on, and so have a huge advantage should you find yourself in a situation where you don't have a nice clump to shoot into.

The small range, and the necessity to use 3 mods *purely* for damage to secondary targets (barely any to the target you're shooting at) - Heat, Cold, and Elementalyst - don't make me consider Blast a valid alternative to true AoE weapons either, to be honest.

In the end, it seems like a fun gimick to put on a sniper, for a short while until you remember that you have better AoE weapons in your arsenal, and a fine side-grade to Gas for grouped enemies only.