It's been 10 years now , we deserve getting some clean closures.

[(PSN)Unstar]

I feel like we've received a lot of closure.  We've explored and killed Ballas.  We discovered and left Duviri.  We know the bulk of what happened on the Zariman.  The Lotus has opened up about her past and found a way forward.  And while we don't know everything, we've learned so much about the broad strokes of the Operator and other Tenno's post-Zariman experiences.

If you compare the questions we had a decade ago to the questions we have now, I'm guessing you'll find that for the most part they're different questions.  Or at least, that's my experience.

Edited Monday at 05:02 PM by (PSN)Unstar
phrasing

[Birdframe_Prime]

4 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

You really think DE is sitting on a story that they took 10 years to tell?

No, I don't think that. I think that DE has got vague plans and has 10 whole years to fill them out and make it look like it was intended all along.

And that the story beats we're hitting right now are like... the little side bits we need to know so that they aren't a surprise later on.

Like... imagine you're a new player, and you've never even once encountered the Conclave, gone to Teshin's room on a Relay, anything at all... and then you hit that point in the story where Lotus disappears and Teshin takes over the comms for you during the Quest. Confusing as heck, right?

In the next decade, DE could take the time to go back and fill that in with a little introductory quest for the Relays, where you learn a little more in-game about the people on the Relays and what they do. And in that quest they could foreshadow things, meaningfully, for later.

By the same exact standard, we have no idea what any of these plot threads will lead to in the future, and even if DE does pull this out of their backside... they have enough time to make it seem like they didn't.

[trst]

On 2024-06-23 at 1:42 AM, OniDax said:

I don't think their approach to storytelling is doing them any favors. It's not garnering them any attention outside of the WF community, it's not winning any awards, it's not even the most important aspect of the game to a lot of players. Deeper, more character-focused, more consistent, well-fleshed out storytelling - bringing it up to the level of the industry leaders - would likely help them bring more attention to Warframe from outside the WF user base, might one day result in them winning some awards, and ultimately bring in more players, more revenue, more support for the game. Same goes for improving their core gameplay systems and bringing them up to the level of the industry leaders.

If this was really driven by what's the best business decision, then we'd see improvements across all of Warframe. It's still a business decision, not driven by what will result in the most success but what will allow them to survive. And the current level they're at is enough to keep the majority of the WF community satisfied. In other words, they approach story the way they do because they know you won't ever expect more of them. You're content with Warframe's current level and don't care for Warframe being at a higher level, so they're content doing what they need to do to keep you interested. They stopped releasing their financial reports after Tencent took over, but they were barely getting by when Leyou was in charge so I assume they're still doing good enough to survive. So it's ok, but it could be better.

That's assuming DE can justify a more story centric approach between playerbase interests and their development pipeline. As is what we do know is that WF players are consistent in playing for a new update then quickly dropping off the game afterwards. So it'd make sense that leaving their stories open to interpretation could be the better approach by leaving room for engagement between players to retain some of that update interest.

Also you say it could be better but would that matter for most players? You say yourself that what they do satisfies the majority of the community so how much payoff could be expected in doing even more? Plus this isn't a single player game nor one with an accelerated "story mode" so even if the story was something notable outside the community it's not like people could come in just to experience it as it's all gated behind months/years of grind.

 

12 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

I dont think open and shut means what you think it means, There are so so so many questions in that quest that remain unanswered.

I specified more open and shut than we're used to. There are unanswered questions in the quest but almost all of them are either minor details or have reasonable explanations based on the other information we have. The only major questions it leaves us is what's going to happen to the child and what, if anything, happens to Hunhow now that's he's being left alone again. Both of which are things we could expect reference to later.

[0_The_F00l]

  

4 minutes ago, (PSN)Unstar said:

I feel like we've received a lot of closure.  We've explored and killed Ballas.  We discovered and left Duviri.  We know the bulk of what happened on the Zariman.  The Lotus has opened up about her past and found a way forward.  And while we don't know everything, we've learned so much about the broad strokes of the Operator and other Tenno's post-Zariman experiences.

If you compare the questions we had a decade ago to the questions we have now, I'm guessing you'll find that for the most part they're different questions.  Or at least, that's my experience.

I still dont know what the hell is the stalkers problem (no it is not answered by the quest despite DE trying to say that it does).

I still dont know how exactly we caused the downfall of the Orokin (and who were the seven?)

I still dont know what the Unum (and other orokin towers) actually do (and how).

I still dont know how the eidolons revive themselves every night ,

I still dont know how onco sees the things he sees (and whats konzu having for lunch that he wants to have it early all the time),

I still dont know the Dax and Orokin hierarchy ,

I still dont know how exactly we discovered Duviri and why we can return to it (or whats consuming the islands in it).

I still dont know why the infestation does some things a certain way and occasionally talks to us or what its actual origin are.

I still dont know whats in Tau ,

I still dont know how the grineer evolved from a peaceful race bred for slave labor to the military empire we have now (partially covered thanks to the war within and some simaris scans but not enough) or how the corpus became so dominant in commerce after an empire ended (again , partially explained but not enough).

I still dont know why the beast of bones did what he did (again , only scraps of what he did , not why)

There are many many more that i cant even recollect , i have literally forgotten more than some are even aware of. I have gotten out of my way to collect as many lore fragments as i can.

Yes there are definitely some that are neatly packed (i actually think fortuna is one such example), but there are more things missing than completed.

3 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

No, I don't think that. I think that DE has got vague plans and has 10 whole years to fill them out and make it look like it was intended all along.

And that the story beats we're hitting right now are like... the little side bits we need to know so that they aren't a surprise later on.

Like... imagine you're a new player, and you've never even once encountered the Conclave, gone to Teshin's room on a Relay, anything at all... and then you hit that point in the story where Lotus disappears and Teshin takes over the comms for you during the Quest. Confusing as heck, right?

In the next decade, DE could take the time to go back and fill that in with a little introductory quest for the Relays, where you learn a little more in-game about the people on the Relays and what they do. And in that quest they could foreshadow things, meaningfully, for later.

By the same exact standard, we have no idea what any of these plot threads will lead to in the future, and even if DE does pull this out of their backside... they have enough time to make it seem like they didn't.

I think they do have vague plans , mostly along the lines of "Do stuff so you can sell more stuff in the next update" , any past plans they have had probably went out the window or got shredded long ago.

And your argument of "some tidbits now to make sense later" are also not logical as many of the lore elements have been part of past events that have never returned , so most people don't even know them.

Also , are you seriously trying to say the story as it is , is not confusing for new players ? Do you think having chapters with proper closures are more confusing than ones without?

Sorry , but your arguments are not really making much sense to me , I really dont want to wait an entire decade for finding out stalker actually has an adopted norg that was accidentally eaten by a grendel and thats why he is pissed at the Tenno.

You also have too much faith that DE will actually be able to keep going for a decade (i hop e they do) but i don't want to wait that long for some things that can be closed off today. I am a very patient person , but i do not like my time wasted when there is no assurance (not even a guarantee) of a result.

[0_The_F00l]

10 minutes ago, trst said:

I specified more open and shut than we're used to. There are unanswered questions in the quest but almost all of them are either minor details or have reasonable explanations based on the other information we have. The only major questions it leaves us is what's going to happen to the child and what, if anything, happens to Hunhow now that's he's being left alone again. Both of which are things we could expect reference to later.

I think you are used to different things than i am (assuming we are limiting this to warframe of course). I also think we have very different opinions of what a "reasonable explanation" is.

Are you not curious how long Jade has been like that?

Are you not curious if her health has been an issue since the beginning or is this the result of a more recent change?

Are you not curious why Jade was selected as the executioners tool?

Are you not curious how exactly a warfame was able to beget an offspring , which is a first.

Are you not curious why the stalker refused to ask the help of the Tenno now but was willing to help them during the new war?

[Loza03]

On 2024-06-22 at 8:00 PM, OniDax said:

No one wants to say DE isn't very good at something (criticizing DE is taboo here), but they're not very good at consistency in storytelling and they're not very good at telling deep stories. They can add the elements people expect to be emotional (and some will react to it the way they're expected to react - and will make sure everyone knows about it too), but their approach to storytelling is too random and doesn't build on what has come before.

Last point. A quote from Warframe: The Stalker: A Warframe Retrospective:

To start with, what parts of the forums have you been hanging out on where criticizing DE is Taboo? To me it feels like whenever DE decides to give even the faintest nerf to something, you have to wait a fortnight before it's not a toxic cesspit full of people screaming at them...

But that aside - I think DE's pretty decent at telling deep - or at least emotionally resonant - stories, but you are right in that they don't have much consistency. I'll gladly grant that other games that tell long-form stories stay on topic, and are able to introduce elements well ahead of time consistently. I don't know why that is behind the scenes, especially since there's plenty of evidence to draw on that DE do in fact tell long form stories - things like the 'Lotus is mind controlled' arc are told perfectly coherently with a bit of character analysis and media literacy - but they don't really stay on topic. Sometimes it's clearly out of their control - the New War lead in got messed up by 2020, for sure - but even with the current set of story beats that are doing set up for the future, I do think that the order could be done better. For exampe, I'd have put Jade Shadows closer to Veilbreaker, since they're both dealing with the immediate post-Narmer events and establishing the older, space opera parts position to come, and that then makes more room to properly, consistently establish the more esoteric

 

On 2024-06-22 at 8:00 PM, OniDax said:

After Jade Shadows, his hatred and animosity for the Tenno - I mean, Warframes - make even less sense.

To be fair, it does explain the animosity before pretty well. 'You tried to kill me' generally does that to a person, regardless of anything larger. It does, unfortunately, make it completely bewildering why he's gone right back to trying to murder us. Especially since he's also helping us.

(Like, even a change in the dialogue might have been able to do something...)

4 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

You really think DE is sitting on a story that they took 10 years to tell?

The more likely scenario is that there is no real plan beyond the next PA ,

Yes, they are.

There's a great deal of evidence to this effect. Base elements of Warframe's story predate the game itself, Man in the Wall setup - even non-explicit setup - goes back years, and Erra's role was established by his name alone.

 

What is in considerable question is if they have a plan for how they're going to tell it. Alad V's plotline, them not staying on topic for any considerable length of time, missing parts of character arcs and (especially weird for the method by which DE likes to tell their stories) a general unwillingness to have extraneous lore beats like the Leverian expand on the existing narrative or be used as tools for foreshadowing, instead telling completely unrelated stories instead.

[0_The_F00l]

2 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

Yes, they are.

There's a great deal of evidence to this effect. Base elements of Warframe's story predate the game itself, Man in the Wall setup - even non-explicit setup - goes back years, and Erra's role was established by his name alone.

 

What is in considerable question is if they have a plan for how they're going to tell it. Alad V's plotline, them not staying on topic for any considerable length of time, missing parts of character arcs and (especially weird for the method by which DE likes to tell their stories) a general unwillingness to have extraneous lore beats like the Leverian expand on the existing narrative or be used as tools for foreshadowing, instead telling completely unrelated stories instead.

I have my doubts cause if i look at what they originally pitched for "Dark sector" assuming that's what you are referencing as the story that predates the game, it was supposed to be actual suits being piloted by humans,

I dont think there was one single story , i think they have mashed together the stories of 10 different ideas (rejected and otherwise from their difficult times) and made it into Warframe by picking it out of the bingo machine or throwing darts for all the sense it makes.

The leverian is the 4th lore repository , the codex is rarely updated , simaris is too busy with his sanctuary to bother with the scans now and nobody probably even remembers cephalon cordylon,

And its not that they havent tried other media , they just cant stick to it.

[trst]

52 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

I think you are used to different things than i am (assuming we are limiting this to warframe of course). I also think we have very different opinions of what a "reasonable explanation" is.

Are you not curious how long Jade has been like that?

Are you not curious if her health has been an issue since the beginning or is this the result of a more recent change?

Are you not curious why Jade was selected as the executioners tool?

Are you not curious how exactly a warfame was able to beget an offspring , which is a first.

Are you not curious why the stalker refused to ask the help of the Tenno now but was willing to help them during the new war?

Jade has been "like that" since she was turned into a frame. Which we know was pre/mid-collapse.

Her health issue is largely irrelevant. We know she was well enough to aid Stalker at some point but since we don't know where she's been or what she's been doing since then the answer is somewhere between recent and since the collapse.

Why is any frame selected for what they do? Are they even selected at all or does it just happen to turn out that way? Also we don't know if Jade is the origin of Jade light or she happens to have it as a power.

We know how that happened: Jade was pregnant before becoming a frame. All we know currently is that being turned into a frame while pregnant is the only way that happens.

And why would Stalker want to reach out to the Tenno? We're his sworn enemy for killing the Orokin but desperate times call for desperate measures and all that. Also it wasn't Stalker that helped us in New War but Hunhow, who Stalker had been taking orders from.

 

I don't see how any of this isn't a reasonable explanation. Even the things that are unanswered/unaddressed aren't immediately relevant to this story or are ultimately unimportant overall. Like we don't need to know what Jade has been doing this whole time for this story and we don't need to know more on frame pregnancy especially if this is the one and only case of it (which is also reasonable since Ordis pointed out that information on her is likely redacted, if this was common enough then why hide this case of it?).

Also we are talking about a game where the story isn't the focal point of the game itself nor the communities chief interest. I'd say this is all more than satisfactory.

[Loza03]

15 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

I have my doubts cause if i look at what they originally pitched for "Dark sector" assuming that's what you are referencing as the story that predates the game, it was supposed to be actual suits being piloted by humans,

I dont think there was one single story , i think they have mashed together the stories of 10 different ideas (rejected and otherwise from their difficult times) and made it into Warframe by picking it out of the bingo machine or throwing darts for all the sense it makes.

A plan that changes is still a plan.

Dark Sector didn't have the Tenno be kids that were piloting remote-controlled flesh puppets. It did feature a group of individuals sent out on a suicide mission past the edges of the solar system, being plunged into a mysterious realm that brought them back forever changed. Once they returned, they united together to become a guerilla force that struck back against the empire that controlled the system.

That's it, that's the plot of the first several years of Warframe.

New ideas have been brought in over time, of course, and the specifics changed, and definitely some of that was from other projects. That's how writing and game development works.

44 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

The leverian is the 4th lore repository , the codex is rarely updated , simaris is too busy with his sanctuary to bother with the scans now and nobody probably even remembers cephalon cordylon,

Yes, as I said. Aside from Synthesis, these were generally not discussing anything that furthered or expanded the story. As such, people didn't engage with it (also for the Leverian they couldn't keep the scope creep down. They added voice acting, making it cost more, and then they started creating new assets for it. Fromsoftware doesn't voice act that, and for good reason.)

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

On 2024-06-21 at 9:30 PM, 0_The_F00l said:

This is not related to anything specific , but considering the state of the games lore overall.

I have a distinct feeling that DE doesn't really have any long term story goals planned at just picks up random tropes they feel like and tries making a mosaic ,even if the pieces don't fit together well 

As of now the story has branched off in so many directions with no continuity that one would think a tree exploded.

Cool as some of these stories are ,they leave so many questions that remain unanswered and are never revisited. 

I really really want DE to start tying off the many loose ends and have a proper coherent and complete story ,

Closing individual chapters does not mean the story is over , it just lets you focus on the new one with a clean state.

We can read and play much faster than they can release part of a story. We are also extraordinarily impatient and need constant updates of gameplay. Therefore, DE can only really work in chapters, cycling through each faction to keep them as up to date as possible. 

All of that said, I don't think we're far off from big paths unveiling...which is a bummer, but a necessity. Personally, I really hope they have a post set of chapters to show, maybe as Warframe 2, because we are gonna freak the eff out when the entire current story is unraveled.

Edited Monday at 07:45 PM by (PSN)GEN-Son_17
Grammar error

[(PSN)Unstar]

   A lot of these questions we actually have answers to.  Let's dig in! ^^

2 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

I still dont know what the hell is the stalkers problem (no it is not answered by the quest despite DE trying to say that it does).

This has been answered along multiple axes, all of it well before Jade Shadows.  As Hunhow states, Stalker liked Orokin society and thus doesn't like that the Tenno destroyed it.  And as the Lotus states, the Stalker's mind broke a bit when he learned the truth of what the Tenno were and what he was.  Which honestly seems very reasonable, as the Warframing process seems ripe for trauma, and we know that before the Tenno intervened, murderous raging wasn't an uncommon thing for Warframes to do.  So yeah, that's his beef.

 

2 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

I still dont know why the infestation does some things a certain way and occasionally talks to us or what its actual origin are.

The Infestation was created by the Orokin.  It didn't obey them and now operates according to its own values.  That said, there are different strains of Infestation, and they have different "personalities". But broadly speaking, they want to self-replicate and consume everything, and their stated reason is that this will result in peace.  So they're basically a biological version of imperialist colonialism.

 

2 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

I still dont know how exactly we discovered Duviri and why we can return to it (or whats consuming the islands in it).

We didn't discover Duviri, we created it.  Via Void stuff.  You aren't intended to understand how the Void works; that's sort of the entire point of the Void: it is not knowable to us.

 

2 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

I still dont know how the grineer evolved from a peaceful race bred for slave labor to the military empire we have now (partially covered thanks to the war within and some simaris scans but not enough)

Like many aspects of Warframe, this has been answered, but not in an explicit statement.  Similar to many slavers throughout history, the Orokin thought the biology of the Grineer prevented them from rebelling.  And as it always goes both in reality and for the Orokin, they were wrong.  When the Grineer saw their opportunity, they took it.  As a player, it is impossible to understand the Orokin if you take everything they say and think at face value; it is vital that you understand that despite their advanced technology and eternal life, they are just as flawed as any human of our era.  Once you start reading Warframe in this more critical way, it becomes much easier to digest.  But to be fair, that's hard, especially because most of us aren't taught to develop this kind of literacy in school, etc.  I had to develop it well after I had entered the work force, and it's something I'm still putting effort into developing so that it becomes easier and more natural for me.  But I find the results rewarding!

 

2 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

I still dont know why the beast of bones did what he did (again , only scraps of what he did , not why)

The great thing about a well-told story is that we don't need to be told everything, as long as the story tells us enough to help us understand it.  And with Ordin Karris's tale, we have more than enough.  The Orokin were corrupt and oppressive, and we've seen countless examples of the ways that they harmed peoples of all stripes.  It's easy to intuit that Ordin Karris takes issue with this, either from personal experience or just from being a compassionate human being.  And that's all the motivation we need to understand the story.

If you want more, I won't say that's invalid.  But the story doesn't need it.

 

2 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

how the corpus became so dominant in commerce after an empire ended (again , partially explained but not enough).

Again, we don't need to be explicitly told everything.  The dominant power structure collapsed, and there was a capitalist collective ruled by greed ready to fill in that power vacuum since the Orokin could no longer stop them.  The writers are trusting you as a player to have an understanding of how the real world works and apply those intuitions to their text.  And I'll be honest, I don't think there's anything interesting to learn from hearing any of the details about their trade routes, etc.

 

2 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

I still dont know what the Unum (and other orokin towers) actually do (and how).

I still dont know how onco sees the things he sees (and whats konzu having for lunch that he wants to have it early all the time),

The Unum is different than the other Orokin towers.  It's never spelled out, but my interpretation is that the Unum is likely an Orokin who performed Continuity, but rather than putting their soul into a human body, they put it into an Orokin tower.  Which makes sense since it is filled with biological material.  Whether they'll revisit this more in the future is anyone's guess.  Like the Void, the Unum is intended to be a bit mysterious, and things becomes significantly less mysterious the more they're explained.

As for the Quills, if I recall we don't know much about how they function, just that they do.  As Euleria Entrati explains, all possibilities simultaneously exist; the Quills are able to see those possibilities, futures, and pasts.  In short, they see via Eternalism.  And you can see in the way that Onko talks that this makes it a bit difficult to talk with those who experience reality in a more linear and immediate fashion.

Despite being tucked in the middle right here, this is one of the most important paragraphs, so I want to draw some attention to it:

Like so many of the questions you seem to be thinking about, I want to try to point out that it is impossible to fully answer the question of "how does Onko see via Eternalism".  Because at least as far as you and I know, that's not a real thing.  So if DE says he can do that because he kissed the Unum, yes, that answers a question, but it also invites another question of how that works.  And we can't answer that question without inviting another.  That's the nature of creating a world that contains fictional elements that don't exist in reality: at some point, we just have to accept that it works because the author told us it does.

 

2 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

I still dont know how the eidolons revive themselves every night ,

We don't know the exact mechanics, but we know that when Sentients die, that's not the same as death for humans, in that it's not the end.  This isn't really a story that needs a conclusion, though, as much as it's an element of a story; the story works fine without explaining this.

 

2 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

I still dont know whats in Tau ,

The Narmer plotline has been actively developing this thread.  Stay tuned!

 

2 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

I still dont know how exactly we caused the downfall of the Orokin (and who were the seven?)

I still dont know the Dax and Orokin hierarchy ,

We know some of this and not all of it.  Personally, I don't think the identities of The Seven or the exact hierarchy of a society that's long gone are that important.  We know enough of the broad strokes to understand the stories.

Will we ever see the exact mechanics of how the Orokin were destroyed?  I will say it could be interesting.  But it also is easy to imagine that the Tenno just simultaneously killed 99% of the Orokin and destroyed their means of Continuity.

 

To approach a conclusion, I understand and am compassionate with your hunger for more information.  When I was younger, I really liked Star Wars, and I had all of these different informational books that told me about different races and planets and factions and ships and robots, etc.  And I absorbed it.  Loved it.  Because knowing things and further fleshing out that universe was really fun!

But I also think it can be helpful to recognize that I didn't need any of that to understand and enjoy any of the actual stories I was experiencing.  Whether it was the movies or books like Shadows of the Empire, none of them spelled out every last detail.  They had enough information to tell the stories they wanted to tell.

I think Warframe can be a trickier text than that, though.  For better or worse, Warframe expects more media literacy from its audience, so it can sometimes be hard to tell the difference between what is being told in a "poetic" way and what is simply not being told.  And of course, it becomes all the more complex when plenty of the story threads are hidden behind collectibles that must be hunted down.  It's complicated, it's messy.  But personally, I find it satisfying.

I genuinely hope this post helps untangle that a bit or offers a perspective that might in any way be helpful!

Edited Monday at 08:40 PM by (PSN)Unstar
phrasing

[0_The_F00l]

8 hours ago, Loza03 said:

A plan that changes is still a plan.

Dark Sector didn't have the Tenno be kids that were piloting remote-controlled flesh puppets. It did feature a group of individuals sent out on a suicide mission past the edges of the solar system, being plunged into a mysterious realm that brought them back forever changed. Once they returned, they united together to become a guerilla force that struck back against the empire that controlled the system.

That's it, that's the plot of the first several years of Warframe.

New ideas have been brought in over time, of course, and the specifics changed, and definitely some of that was from other projects. That's how writing and game development works.

Thats the hero's story trope that you are describing , that's the basis for most stories with a protoganist. Your description can be used to describe pretty much any movie/game/ book with scifi or fantastic elements.

I don't have a problem with the concept itself , i simply have my doubts that there is an actual script to follow and most things are added adhoc when an update is needed. This causes a lot of dissonance when it should be a melody.

8 hours ago, Loza03 said:

Yes, as I said. Aside from Synthesis, these were generally not discussing anything that furthered or expanded the story. As such, people didn't engage with it (also for the Leverian they couldn't keep the scope creep down. They added voice acting, making it cost more, and then they started creating new assets for it. Fromsoftware doesn't voice act that, and for good reason.)

Just shows that they haven't planned S#&$.

7 hours ago, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 said:

We can read and play much faster than they can release part of a story. We are also extraordinarily impatient and need constant updates of gameplay. Therefore, DE can only really work in chapters, cycling through each faction to keep them as up to date as possible. 

All of that said, I don't think we're far off from big paths unveiling...which is a bummer, but a necessity. Personally, I really hope they have a post set of chapters to show, maybe as Warframe 2, because we are gonna freak the eff out when the entire current story is unraveled.

I doubt DE has the appetite for risking an actual sequel,  there will never be a warframe 2 in my opinion only more updates.

If they actually have a story thought out there are alternate media to tell stories (which they tried and then quickly abandoned) it doesn't need to be pomp and special effects each time a simple text file will do.

Case in point wave rider , grandmas naberus story , various fragments, entratis PC.

7 hours ago, (PSN)Unstar said:

   A lot of these questions we actually have answers to.  Let's dig in! ^^

This has been answered along multiple axes, all of it well before Jade Shadows.  As Hunhow states, Stalker liked Orokin society and thus doesn't like that the Tenno destroyed it.  And as the Lotus states, the Stalker's mind broke a bit when he learned the truth of what the Tenno were and what he was.  Which honestly seems very reasonable, as the Warframing process seems ripe for trauma, and we know that before the Tenno intervened, murderous raging wasn't an uncommon thing for Warframes to do.  So yeah, that's his beef.

 

The Infestation was created by the Orokin.  It didn't obey them and now operates according to its own values.  That said, there are different strains of Infestation, and they have different "personalities". But broadly speaking, they want to self-replicate and consume everything, and their stated reason is that this will result in peace.  So they're basically a biological version of imperialist colonialism.

 

We didn't discover Duviri, we created it.  Via Void stuff.  You aren't intended to understand how the Void works; that's sort of the entire point of the Void: it is not knowable to us.

 

Like many aspects of Warframe, this has been answered, but not in an explicit statement.  Similar to many slavers throughout history, the Orokin thought the biology of the Grineer prevented them from rebelling.  And as it always goes both in reality and for the Orokin, they were wrong.  When the Grineer saw their opportunity, they took it.  As a player, it is impossible to understand the Orokin if you take everything they say and think at face value; it is vital that you understand that despite their advanced technology and eternal life, they are just as flawed as any human of our era.  Once you start reading Warframe in this more critical way, it becomes much easier to digest.  But to be fair, that's hard, especially because most of us aren't taught to develop this kind of literacy in school, etc.  I had to develop it well after I had entered the work force, and it's something I'm still putting effort into developing so that it becomes easier and more natural for me.  But I find the results rewarding!

 

The great thing about a well-told story is that we don't need to be told everything, as long as the story tells us enough to help us understand it.  And with Ordin Karris's tale, we have more than enough.  The Orokin were corrupt and oppressive, and we've seen countless examples of the ways that they harmed peoples of all stripes.  It's easy to intuit that Ordin Karris takes issue with this, either from personal experience or just from being a compassionate human being.  And that's all the motivation we need to understand the story.

If you want more, I won't say that's invalid.  But the story doesn't need it.

 

Again, we don't need to be explicitly told everything.  The dominant power structure collapsed, and there was a capitalist collective ruled by greed ready to fill in that power vacuum since the Orokin could no longer stop them.  The writers are trusting you as a player to have an understanding of how the real world works and apply those intuitions to their text.  And I'll be honest, I don't think there's anything interesting to learn from hearing any of the details about their trade routes, etc.

 

The Unum is different than the other Orokin towers.  It's never spelled out, but my interpretation is that the Unum is likely an Orokin who performed Continuity, but rather than putting their soul into a human body, they put it into an Orokin tower.  Which makes sense since it is filled with biological material.  Whether they'll revisit this more in the future is anyone's guess.  Like the Void, the Unum is intended to be a bit mysterious, and things becomes significantly less mysterious the more they're explained.

As for the Quills, if I recall we don't know much about how they function, just that they do.  As Euleria Entrati explains, all possibilities simultaneously exist; the Quills are able to see those possibilities, futures, and pasts.  In short, they see via Eternalism.  And you can see in the way that Onko talks that this makes it a bit difficult to talk with those who experience reality in a more linear and immediate fashion.

Despite being tucked in the middle right here, this is one of the most important paragraphs, so I want to draw some attention to it:

Like so many of the questions you seem to be thinking about, I want to try to point out that it is impossible to fully answer the question of "how does Onko see via Eternalism".  Because at least as far as you and I know, that's not a real thing.  So if DE says he can do that because he kissed the Unum, yes, that answers a question, but it also invites another question of how that works.  And we can't answer that question without inviting another.  That's the nature of creating a world that contains fictional elements that don't exist in reality: at some point, we just have to accept that it works because the author told us it does.

 

We don't know the exact mechanics, but we know that when Sentients die, that's not the same as death for humans, in that it's not the end.  This isn't really a story that needs a conclusion, though, as much as it's an element of a story; the story works fine without explaining this.

 

The Narmer plotline has been actively developing this thread.  Stay tuned!

 

We know some of this and not all of it.  Personally, I don't think the identities of The Seven or the exact hierarchy of a society that's long gone are that important.  We know enough of the broad strokes to understand the stories.

Will we ever see the exact mechanics of how the Orokin were destroyed?  I will say it could be interesting.  But it also is easy to imagine that the Tenno just simultaneously killed 99% of the Orokin and destroyed their means of Continuity.

 

To approach a conclusion, I understand and am compassionate with your hunger for more information.  When I was younger, I really liked Star Wars, and I had all of these different informational books that told me about different races and planets and factions and ships and robots, etc.  And I absorbed it.  Loved it.  Because knowing things and further fleshing out that universe was really fun!

But I also think it can be helpful to recognize that I didn't need any of that to understand and enjoy any of the actual stories I was experiencing.  Whether it was the movies or books like Shadows of the Empire, none of them spelled out every last detail.  They had enough information to tell the stories they wanted to tell.

I think Warframe can be a trickier text than that, though.  For better or worse, Warframe expects more media literacy from its audience, so it can sometimes be hard to tell the difference between what is being told in a "poetic" way and what is simply not being told.  And of course, it becomes all the more complex when plenty of the story threads are hidden behind collectibles that must be hunted down.  It's complicated, it's messy.  But personally, I find it satisfying.

I genuinely hope this post helps untangle that a bit or offers a perspective that might in any way be helpful!

Most of the points you have said is open to interpretation , refer my title stating "clean closure" ,

if i wanted to create my own head cannon to justify why certain things are the way they are, I am already ahead of you.

Suspension of disbelief is , of course, necessary for any sci-fi and fantasy media to be interesting and entertaining , but it still needs to be consistent else it loses its potency. 

I am just pissed that everytime we keep getting more questions with a barebones plot that goes tangential to previous observations so many times that it forms its own circle.

If you are satisfied with mediocrity I am not going to stop you enjoying the game , I personally prefer to have something better than that.

[Loza03]

6 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Thats the hero's story trope that you are describing , that's the basis for most stories with a protoganist. Your description can be used to describe pretty much any movie/game/ book with scifi or fantastic elements.

I don't have a problem with the concept itself , i simply have my doubts that there is an actual script to follow and most things are added adhoc when an update is needed. This causes a lot of dissonance when it should be a melody.

No, it isn't. The 'Belly of the Whale' sub-trope is part of the story not the inciting incident. If there's any part that'd be tied to the Belly of the Whale, it'd be the New War.

[0_The_F00l]

7 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

No, it isn't. The 'Belly of the Whale' sub-trope is part of the story not the inciting incident. If there's any part that'd be tied to the Belly of the Whale, it'd be the New War.

What ? I am really not arguing which part of warframe is which chapter of the trope, not specifically calling out any sub trope either. 

[Loza03]

6 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

What ? I am really not arguing which part of warframe is which chapter of the trope, not specifically calling out any sub trope either. 

What you're doing is trying to argue that the Tenno's backstory is the Hero's journey. Specifically, the idea that the Tenno were thrust into their greatest challenge and their lowest point, and then emerge forever changed with the new knowledge of the other world. Which is the New War. The Tenno is stripped of their powers and much of their sense of identity, and then thrust into their greatest challenge. Eventually, they emerge, forever changed, equipped with new knowledge from this time of struggle.

If the Tenno's backstory was the narrative - i.e. what is played and experienced - then yes, the Zariman would match on. But that isn't how the Monomyth works - the Monomyth is the description of the narrative, which is distinct from backstory. And even if it wasn't - the hero's journey isn't magic. You don't throw ideas at a wall and it turns into a hero's journey narrative like light patterns in a double slit experiment. It's still a consciously planned decision.

 

And besides, there's other examples I gave of DE having plans for their story in advance, and that is not an exhaustive list. I just put in three because rule of threes.

[0_The_F00l]

5 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

What you're doing is trying to argue that the Tenno's backstory is the Hero's journey. Specifically, the idea that the Tenno were thrust into their greatest challenge and their lowest point, and then emerge forever changed with the new knowledge of the other world. Which is the New War. The Tenno is stripped of their powers and much of their sense of identity, and then thrust into their greatest challenge. Eventually, they emerge, forever changed, equipped with new knowledge from this time of struggle.

If the Tenno's backstory was the narrative - i.e. what is played and experienced - then yes, the Zariman would match on. But that isn't how the Monomyth works - the Monomyth is the description of the narrative, which is distinct from backstory. And even if it wasn't - the hero's journey isn't magic. You don't throw ideas at a wall and it turns into a hero's journey narrative like light patterns in a double slit experiment. It's still a consciously planned decision.

 

And besides, there's other examples I gave of DE having plans for their story in advance, and that is not an exhaustive list. I just put in three because rule of threes.

Incorrect , I wasn't focusing on backstory. I was arguing against your assumption that the hero's journey trope is a sufficient story by itself. The entire story until now has had multiple chapters (often times the same chapter mind you).

[Loza03]

2 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Incorrect , I wasn't focusing on backstory. I was arguing against your assumption that the hero's journey trope is a sufficient story by itself. The entire story until now has had multiple chapters (often times the same chapter mind you).

I never mentioned the Hero's journey. At all. And as I have been talking about, what I was talking about wasn't the hero's journey to begin with.

What you have done is invented a facet of my argument that's easier to argue against, and then done so.

[0_The_F00l]

Just now, Loza03 said:

I never mentioned the Hero's journey. At all. And as I have been talking about, what I was talking about wasn't the hero's journey to begin with.

What you have done is invented a facet of my argument that's easier to argue against, and then done so.

My apologies if it came out that way, as I have argued against different things with different underlying implications.

But in my view what you described below: 

18 hours ago, Loza03 said:

It did feature a group of individuals sent out on a suicide mission past the edges of the solar system, being plunged into a mysterious realm that brought them back forever changed. Once they returned, they united together to become a guerilla force that struck back against the empire that controlled the system.

That's it, that's the plot of the first several years of Warframe.

Is an aspect of the hero's journey , it's not a story by itself and is far from any long term plan to justify your faith that there is an actual script that may be unraveled later.

DE simply finds ways to include their various inconsistent thoughts and hang it on a branch that may not actually be connected to the trunk.

[Loza03]

3 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

My apologies if it came out that way, as I have argued against different things with different underlying implications.

But in my view what you described below: 

Is an aspect of the hero's journey , it's not a story by itself and is far from any long term plan to justify your faith that there is an actual script that may be unraveled later.

And as stated, your view is flawed, in two ways at least.

The first: you've misidentified the trope. This doesn't exactly help your credibility, especially since you aren't really acknowledging the fact that disparate ideas being folded into Warframe is a part of the planning process, or that plans can change and yet still be a part of the same overall plan. Many aspects of the original Dark Sector concept were altered - the Grineer and the Corpus used to be the same entity, for example. 

The second: the trope is a story structure in the first place. You don't get the hero's journey if, as you are insisting, you are just throwing random ideas to see what sticks. You get it if you are consciously writing the story with an understanding of what lies ahead. 

 

And thirdly, once again, there's examples of DE having planned ahead other than just the existence of the Operator. 

[0_The_F00l]

2 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

And as stated, your view is flawed, in two ways at least.

The first: you've misidentified the trope. This doesn't exactly help your credibility, especially since you aren't really acknowledging the fact that disparate ideas being folded into Warframe is a part of the planning process, or that plans can change and yet still be a part of the same overall plan. Many aspects of the original Dark Sector concept were altered - the Grineer and the Corpus used to be the same entity, for example. 

The second: the trope is a story structure in the first place. You don't get the hero's journey if, as you are insisting, you are just throwing random ideas to see what sticks. You get it if you are consciously writing the story with an understanding of what lies ahead. 

 

And thirdly, once again, there's examples of DE having planned ahead other than just the existence of the Operator. 

Oh wow how will i ever recover my credibility on a public forum -_- i am perfectly fine with what others may or may not think of me , i have no need for validation or approval of my opinions. I am curious why you think the trope is misidentified , did you not describe a plot that fits pretty snugly in the trope?

Also , lets clarify a few things as there are different points which can get lost in the multi faceted discussion,

I am arguing against YOU , for claiming a plot (which is basically part of a heroes journey trope according to me) is the basis for any plans that DE has, this is an argument against your (as an individuals) opinion of how DE has made their story. I disagree with your viewpoint as being the only truth , cause any story with some sort of powered protagonist can be broken down and fitted into the constituents of the heroes journey. This is separate from my argument on whatever DE may or may not have had actually plotted.

I am also arguing (separately) that DE has no actual plans for a COHERENT AND COMPLETE story already written away , they may have had a threadbare plot once upon a time , but that was long ago and now just make S#&$ up as they go - this is of course is my opinion and anyone is open to disagree with it, I have no proof beyond my experiences and seeing how the stories and their focus have changed over the years. What i ask is that DE actually close things off and not leave them open which they may never revisit again. Pick a branch and stick with it till you reach the tips.

I am not sure i recognize any example you have given as sufficient proof of any future plans beyond your own beliefs that such a thing exists.

[Birdframe_Prime]

On 2024-06-24 at 6:39 PM, 0_The_F00l said:

Sorry , but your arguments are not really making much sense to me , I really dont want to wait an entire decade for finding out stalker actually has an adopted norg that was accidentally eaten by a grendel and thats why he is pissed at the Tenno.

Of course, because you're not thinking about this from the same perspective.

You're thinking about it from the perspective of constructing a story the way a screen writer or novel writer constructs one, which almost by necessity has to progress through certain stages and have at least the main plot as a cohesive whole by the end of the film/show/book.

That's not how this one works, though.

This doesn't have a definitive end. This doesn't have a definitive middle. And it doesn't even have a definitive beginning either.

Why not? Because we, the audience, don't know what point in the story we even are yet.

Hard to think of it that way, because it's been going for 11 years already, but that's the whole thing. We don't know what story beats are important, we don't know what bits are just fleshing out the world, we don't know what's important to the story at all.

I mean, yeah there's plenty of threads that DE have apparently dropped and not come back to. We don't know that they won't, though.

Since there's absolutely no concrete timeline, no three-act structure, we don't even know if we're really the protagonist or just an observational audience to what will become the protagonist.

We, as an audience, cannot expect anything to make sense narratively. Not yet.

That's what I mean about this whole 'they have 10 more years' thing; They don't even have to present the parts of it in order to us. They can go back and expand upon loose threads, they can present a side-quest that explains where a lost concept went. They can put in a prequel that makes something else make sense afterwards, heck they already did that with the way they released The New War and Duviri Paradox. They introduced a character in the first, then went and showed us the story of that character in the next big update, and now you can play that character's introduction quest even before you play the Second Dream, because it doesn't have a fixed order in the timeline.

I don't actually "have faith" in DE, in that respect. I have faith that they'll keep going as long as they can, but that's as much as anyone can do. I have faith that they're not just pulling ideas out of their backsides and are actually consciously writing these things. (If you want somebody pulling ideas out of their backside, take a look at how the story of Halo 2 came to be...)

I am, specifically, pointing out that DE logically have all of that opportunity ahead of them.

DE may bankrupt with the release of Soulframe, or when they hand out their Evolution Engine to another company like Airship and it burns on arrival... and that may leave the story unfinished, incomplete from all angles.

But we don't know that.

You may not be a patient person... that's a you problem. That's not a DE problem. Even if they could finish up some of these things right now, they don't have to. They don't have to finish the story any time soon. They can spend the next five years filling in the universe with more and more side Quests and Events that don't progress the story at all, and only after that move on to finishing what our story is as the player.

What you're arguing for in this is just...

Not how writing on a decades-and-more time scale works.

[(PSN)Unstar]

18 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Most of the points you have said is open to interpretation , refer my title stating "clean closure" ,...

I am just pissed that everytime we keep getting more questions with a barebones plot that goes tangential to previous observations so many times that it forms its own circle.

If you are satisfied with mediocrity I am not going to stop you enjoying the game , I personally prefer to have something better than that.

With respect, what you're describing isn't an issue of quality, just personal preference in regard to the art you consume.  Some people like art where everything is spelled out for them, and some people like art that's a bit more poetic and invites the viewer to actively engage and make connections.  Both work, and plenty of people prefer one more than the other.  Such is the breadth of art.

If you dislike Warframe's style of story-telling, that's valid, and that's great information to have.  Though that said, I wouldn't recommend holding out hope that they'll change their stride after more than a decade of relative consistency.  As my therapist once told me, "Time after time, Svetlana continues to demonstrate to you that she will not change.  When you expect her to change, you set yourself up for frustration."

And to be clear, I'm not saying you expect DE to change, but I hope you get the vibe I'm putting down.

[0_The_F00l]

8 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Of course, because you're not thinking about this from the same perspective.

You're thinking about it from the perspective of constructing a story the way a screen writer or novel writer constructs one, which almost by necessity has to progress through certain stages and have at least the main plot as a cohesive whole by the end of the film/show/book.

That's not how this one works, though.

This doesn't have a definitive end. This doesn't have a definitive middle. And it doesn't even have a definitive beginning either.

Why not? Because we, the audience, don't know what point in the story we even are yet.

Hard to think of it that way, because it's been going for 11 years already, but that's the whole thing. We don't know what story beats are important, we don't know what bits are just fleshing out the world, we don't know what's important to the story at all.

I mean, yeah there's plenty of threads that DE have apparently dropped and not come back to. We don't know that they won't, though.

Since there's absolutely no concrete timeline, no three-act structure, we don't even know if we're really the protagonist or just an observational audience to what will become the protagonist.

We, as an audience, cannot expect anything to make sense narratively. Not yet.

That's what I mean about this whole 'they have 10 more years' thing; They don't even have to present the parts of it in order to us. They can go back and expand upon loose threads, they can present a side-quest that explains where a lost concept went. They can put in a prequel that makes something else make sense afterwards, heck they already did that with the way they released The New War and Duviri Paradox. They introduced a character in the first, then went and showed us the story of that character in the next big update, and now you can play that character's introduction quest even before you play the Second Dream, because it doesn't have a fixed order in the timeline.

I don't actually "have faith" in DE, in that respect. I have faith that they'll keep going as long as they can, but that's as much as anyone can do. I have faith that they're not just pulling ideas out of their backsides and are actually consciously writing these things. (If you want somebody pulling ideas out of their backside, take a look at how the story of Halo 2 came to be...)

I am, specifically, pointing out that DE logically have all of that opportunity ahead of them.

DE may bankrupt with the release of Soulframe, or when they hand out their Evolution Engine to another company like Airship and it burns on arrival... and that may leave the story unfinished, incomplete from all angles.

But we don't know that.

You may not be a patient person... that's a you problem. That's not a DE problem. Even if they could finish up some of these things right now, they don't have to. They don't have to finish the story any time soon. They can spend the next five years filling in the universe with more and more side Quests and Events that don't progress the story at all, and only after that move on to finishing what our story is as the player.

What you're arguing for in this is just...

Not how writing on a decades-and-more time scale works.

Do you realise what you have written ? You are asking players to be happy with a directionless , incoherent and adhoc story that may not even be completed.

Why ? Cause tomorrow could be better ? That is so weak on multiple levels .

You may be happy with that , but I am not , so yeah my perspective is definitely different than yours.

Also , i AM a patient person , I just don't like to wait with no cause of there may be a better option  . I may have to check my past comments , auto correct can really screw explanations.

3 hours ago, (PSN)Unstar said:

With respect, what you're describing isn't an issue of quality, just personal preference in regard to the art you consume.  Some people like art where everything is spelled out for them, and some people like art that's a bit more poetic and invites the viewer to actively engage and make connections.  Both work, and plenty of people prefer one more than the other.  Such is the breadth of art.

If you dislike Warframe's style of story-telling, that's valid, and that's great information to have.  Though that said, I wouldn't recommend holding out hope that they'll change their stride after more than a decade of relative consistency.  As my therapist once told me, "Time after time, Svetlana continues to demonstrate to you that she will not change.  When you expect her to change, you set yourself up for frustration."

And to be clear, I'm not saying you expect DE to change, but I hope you get the vibe I'm putting down.

Of course it's personal preference , as all art medium are (including storytelling) never claimed it for a fact.

I don't know your background or your therapist , so I don't really have any comments in that , but people can change.

But they definitely won't change if no effort is put into changing them either externally or internally.

Nothing may come of it , or something might happen. The point is I want a change. 

[(PSN)Unstar]

1 hour ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Of course it's personal preference , as all art medium are (including storytelling) never claimed it for a fact.

  Ah, when you said "if you are satisfied with mediocrity" it sounded like you were casting a judgment that extended beyond yourself.  But it's easy to slip up with word choice, and I'm glad to have your clarification that that wasn't your intention.

 

1 hour ago, 0_The_F00l said:

I don't know your background or your therapist , so I don't really have any comments in that , but people can change.

But they definitely won't change if no effort is put into changing them either externally or internally.

Oh totes.  People can change; that's something I believe in to an extent that many people would consider excessive.  My therapist wasn't trying to say that people can't change, just that I need to be more prudent about my own expectations that others will change.  Hope for the best but prepare for the worst, etc.

 

1 hour ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Nothing may come of it , or something might happen. The point is I want a change. 

If you haven't already, it may be worthwhile to put something like that in the Feedback section.  A non-trivial number of folks upvoted your initial post, so if that's put in a place where the devs will assuredly get the feedback, that might increase the odds of making your desires into a reality.

[0_The_F00l]

15 minutes ago, (PSN)Unstar said:

If you haven't already, it may be worthwhile to put something like that in the Feedback section.  A non-trivial number of folks upvoted your initial post, so if that's put in a place where the devs will assuredly get the feedback, that might increase the odds of making your desires into a reality.

I tend to first have a GD and then compile the results in a feedback once the GD has run its course of debates.

This way I can add some points i missed and also remove some points which after a discussion seem not as important.

Change doesnt happen in a day and it's not going to impact just me.

Edited Wednesday at 04:39 AM by 0_The_F00l
Better description