It's been 10 years now , we deserve getting some clean closures.

[0_The_F00l]

15 minutes ago, (PSN)Unstar said:

If you haven't already, it may be worthwhile to put something like that in the Feedback section.  A non-trivial number of folks upvoted your initial post, so if that's put in a place where the devs will assuredly get the feedback, that might increase the odds of making your desires into a reality.

I tend to first have a GD and then compile the results in a feedback once the GD has run its course of debates.

This way I can add some points i missed and also remove some points which after a discussion seem not as important.

Change doesnt happen in a day and it's not going to impact just me.

Edited Wednesday at 04:39 AM by 0_The_F00l
Better description

[Kaokasalis]

On 2024-06-22 at 6:30 AM, 0_The_F00l said:

I have a distinct feeling that DE doesn't really have any long term story goals planned at just picks up random tropes they feel like and tries making a mosaic ,even if the pieces don't fit together well

I am somewhat mixed on this. They do sometimes tease things in advance like how the silhouette of the new sentinel body of Ordis that he uses from The New War onwards, also showed up in The Sacrifice or Parvos Granum mentioning the Entrati during the Deadlock Protocol and then the Entrati family was later released as a new syndicate. On the other hand, we have stuff like the 2018 teaser for The New War which teased Praghasa and her voice but for some reason she was instead made dead in the quest when it released. I understand that everything doesn't always go according to plans and that there can be complications but at times it feels like DE don't have a solid grasp on their stories.

On 2024-06-22 at 6:30 AM, 0_The_F00l said:

As of now the story has branched off in so many directions with no continuity that one would think a tree exploded.

Cool as some of these stories are ,they leave so many questions that remain unanswered and are never revisited. 

I really really want DE to start tying off the many loose ends and have a proper coherent and complete story ,

Closing individual chapters does not mean the story is over , it just lets you focus on the new one with a clean state.

Agreed. Many of the old events that story with existing figures such as Alad V or Vay Hek also aren't available anymore. It makes no sense that the Patient Zero quest is on Eris because that is after players unlock The Second Dream and we already cured him before it in Operation: Tubemen of Regor which is why he helps us out in the quest. Many of the early bosses also don't really have any proper story expositions beyond what little is given in their mission and much of it is also kind of outdated. Instead of focusing on new stuff like pregnant warframes or time travel back to 1999, DE should solidify their roots and fix the story for their existing content.

[Loza03]

 

17 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

I am arguing against YOU , for claiming a plot (which is basically part of a heroes journey trope according to me) is the basis for any plans that DE has, this is an argument against your (as an individuals) opinion of how DE has made their story. I disagree with your viewpoint as being the only truth , cause any story with some sort of powered protagonist can be broken down and fitted into the constituents of the heroes journey. This is separate from my argument on whatever DE may or may not have had actually plotted.

So, given that it was just one example (and again - not an exhaustive list in the first place), why exactly are you focusing so much on this one particular point?

It is indisputable that you've drawn special attention to it over the other two presented arguments - The Man in the Wall's years-long setup, and Erra's naming conventions foreshadowing his role in the story before it was revealed, by virtue of the fact that was the only one you referred to, consistently, even in spite of my repeated reminders that it was only part of the argument and you are in fact now claiming that it alone is my viewpoint.

17 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

I am also arguing (separately) that DE has no actual plans for a COHERENT AND COMPLETE story already written away , they may have had a threadbare plot once upon a time , but that was long ago and now just make S#&$ up as they go - this is of course is my opinion and anyone is open to disagree with it, I have no proof beyond my experiences and seeing how the stories and their focus have changed over the years. What i ask is that DE actually close things off and not leave them open which they may never revisit again. Pick a branch and stick with it till you reach the tips.

I am not sure i recognize any example you have given as sufficient proof of any future plans beyond your own beliefs that such a thing exists.

Of course if you decide to simply not recognise any example I give as proof, then of course I have nothing beyond my own belief.

But, equally certainly, I have provided evidence. As a matter of fact, evidence that goes through the game's life span. Some of the things I'm talking about were set up years ago, and have been paid off just this year. Specifically, the set up for the Man. Parvos's whisper was confirmed to be the Man last update. It's something that could be foreseen, but Wally  In other words - they planned for it, and incorporated that plan into the game.

And indeed the same is true for Erra's storyline and in general several arcs of the New War. Say what you will about anything that could be predicted as 'well it's just the common tropes' - if you can predict something based on the foreshadowing that was made, that means the people who wrote the foreshadowing knew what they were foreshadowing. They planned it.

Were there changes and rewrites, and new ideas added and old ideas culled? Yes. Of course there were. But answer me something.

If you right now (not you ten years ago, you right now) were to be somehow put in charge of Warframe's writing when DE first dreamed up the concept of Dark Sector, would you write the plan for that story as an unchanging script, that has to be exactly what you wrote down then, when you wrote it, and new ideas and concepts cannot be introduced? Because that's how you believe you plan a game like Warframe's story.

I ask this, because from what I can tell, this seems to be what you want.

[(PSN)Unstar]

11 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

I tend to first have a GD and then compile the results in a feedback once the GD has run its course of debates.

This way I can add some points i missed and also remove some points which after a discussion seem not as important.

Change doesnt happen in a day and it's not going to impact just me.

I like your thoughtful approach!

[0_The_F00l]

1 hour ago, Loza03 said:

 

So, given that it was just one example (and again - not an exhaustive list in the first place), why exactly are you focusing so much on this one particular point?

It is indisputable that you've drawn special attention to it over the other two presented arguments - The Man in the Wall's years-long setup, and Erra's naming conventions foreshadowing his role in the story before it was revealed, by virtue of the fact that was the only one you referred to, consistently, even in spite of my repeated reminders that it was only part of the argument and you are in fact now claiming that it alone is my viewpoint.

I had to go back and check where the discussion actually started :D

The reason i have drawn attention to it (heroes trope reference) is what you gave as an example is not exclusive to warframe , you could be describing star wars , lord of the ring , harry potter or even the other games like mass effect and destiny. The actual devil is in the details to see if any actual effort was put into the story to flesh it out from warframes perspective.

Man in the walls "year long setup" is only a matter of perception, was it supposed to actually be revealed over a year or did they draw it out to make it last a year , like spreading a small amount of butter over a large surface of bread. Since its only a matter of perception there ws very little to argue opver , hence why i feel the examples you gave dont really justify your faith.

I have no idea on what you mean by Erras naming convention , his role was pretty pointless and abrupt till the end. Felt more like a clown whose chain was getting yanked to fit any role that needed filling at the time.

1 hour ago, Loza03 said:

Of course if you decide to simply not recognise any example I give as proof, then of course I have nothing beyond my own belief.

I will recognize the examples if i actually find a justifiable reason to , i dont have any particular distrust or angst against you personally , i simply dont see your examples as a convincing argument to change my mind so far. And its going to be difficult for either of us to convince the other as neither of us actually knows what happens in the background. And we have make assumptions based on observations.

1 hour ago, Loza03 said:

But, equally certainly, I have provided evidence. As a matter of fact, evidence that goes through the game's life span. Some of the things I'm talking about were set up years ago, and have been paid off just this year. Specifically, the set up for the Man. Parvos's whisper was confirmed to be the Man last update. It's something that could be foreseen, but Wally  In other words - they planned for it, and incorporated that plan into the game.

And indeed the same is true for Erra's storyline and in general several arcs of the New War. Say what you will about anything that could be predicted as 'well it's just the common tropes' - if you can predict something based on the foreshadowing that was made, that means the people who wrote the foreshadowing knew what they were foreshadowing. They planned it.

Were there changes and rewrites, and new ideas added and old ideas culled? Yes. Of course there were. But answer me something.

This i think is where we have difference of views which cant really be resolved , How do you differentiate between "planned in advance by foreshadowing" against " added a voice line at the last minute" and there can certainly be both instances of such things happening, There can be certain plans made which are followed to a T, but there can also be no plans and things changed last minute. There's definitely enough of both in the game in my opinion.

Seriously Erra was so pathetic - from multiple angles both inside and outside the game.

1 hour ago, Loza03 said:

If you right now (not you ten years ago, you right now) were to be somehow put in charge of Warframe's writing when DE first dreamed up the concept of Dark Sector, would you write the plan for that story as an unchanging script, that has to be exactly what you wrote down then, when you wrote it, and new ideas and concepts cannot be introduced? Because that's how you believe you plan a game like Warframe's story.

I ask this, because from what I can tell, this seems to be what you want.

I think you misunderstand my intent , and are focusing on our argument about the specifics of DEs capacity to plan things (for which i am partially to blame as well as i too am not willing to let go of that tangential bone :D). I am not against changing plans to have better narratives , my intent is for the narrative to actually be cohesive and complete even when taken in parts (AKA individual quests and stories).

But to answer you ,

If i am to write warframes story from the beginning - would i know it is a live service game (which warframe has become) or do i write it as a self contained event with a start middle and end (which dark sector was supposed to be).

If its a game that is self contained then yes , i would make a script that is (mostly ) unchanging , there could be variations (or options) to account for limtations in tech or other reasons , like paris instead of rome , death by impaling instead of death by bludgeoning etc.

I would add new stories which were also self contained if i had to make a continuation.

P.S. This of course is moot , no two writers are the same , and i could make a story that is complete S#&$ or passable or excellent. If every story was a winner there woould be a lot more award winnners.

 

31 minutes ago, (PSN)Unstar said:

I like your thoughtful approach!

Thanks :)

Edited Wednesday at 04:16 PM by 0_The_F00l

[Birdframe_Prime]

13 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Do you realise what you have written ? You are asking players to be happy with a directionless , incoherent and adhoc story that may not even be completed.

Yeah, what of it?

Tell you a secret: The internet has grown up with this. It's not new. It's even preferred in many writing communities. It's considered 'fun' by a surprising amount of people.

What started out around twenty years, maybe twenty-five, with the early Fanfiction community, where they wrote stories that literally updated and changed based on the newly released material for a show or comic or piece of media, continued on into full-on non-linear story telling as a practice.

It's been at least twenty years since the original popularisation of the chaotic method of story creation that is basically 'Non-Linear Writing' came to be.

I spent about five years as a ghost-writer and editor, even getting my greasy mitts onto a couple of international Best Sellers, and let me tell you that this exact, directionless and non-linear method of writing is how we get a whole lot of books these days.

You write what you can, when you can, then form it into a cohesive whole by filling the plot holes, writing explanatory scenes and bringing it to a close.

You have a differing opinion, right?

That's fine.

Do you know what the whole issue is with that?

Your opinion isn't worth any more, or any less, than mine, or the next person's and the next.

You can't back this up with a reasoned argument, because all you have to go on is that opinion. Why not? Because you don't know any more than the rest of us.

So the exact second that somebody disagreed with you... me, or anyone else... Your opinion is equaled and opposed.

No matter how much you try to spin this argument in your favour, all you can do is come here, to what's known as a Forum Of Your Peers and see if people agree with you on your opinion.

And from the looks of things...

Your arguments are mostly pushing people onto the back-foot where they're tasked with defending themselves from you, rather than discussing it with you. Which is only going to lead them to be opposed to your view point.

[0_The_F00l]

30 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Yeah, what of it?

Well , as long as you know what you are saying i guess you are entitled your opinions , just as people are free to disagree or agree with it. I clearly fall into the disagreeing camp.

30 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

-snip-

You write what you can, when you can, then form it into a cohesive whole by filling the plot holes, writing explanatory scenes and bringing it to a close.

You have a differing opinion, right?

Actually , no , my opinion is that its about time DE actually GOT to this part. There is a difference between being patient for the final product and letting people get away with mediocrity and procrastination.

30 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Do you know what the whole issue is with that?

Your opinion isn't worth any more, or any less, than mine, or the next person's and the next.

You can't back this up with a reasoned argument, because all you have to go on is that opinion. Why not? Because you don't know any more than the rest of us.

So the exact second that somebody disagreed with you... me, or anyone else... Your opinion is equaled and opposed.

No matter how much you try to spin this argument in your favour, all you can do is come here, to what's known as a Forum Of Your Peers and see if people agree with you on your opinion.

Never claimed otherwise.

30 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

And from the looks of things...

Your arguments are mostly pushing people onto the back-foot where they're tasked with defending themselves from you, rather than discussing it with you. Which is only going to lead them to be opposed to your view point.

Yes i can get a bit ... fierce at times, i enjoy a good debate with skills honed over the years through many many trials and tribulations of minds and words. Made many good friends and enemies (not quite as dire as it sounds) of mixed viewpoints, both opposed and aligned to my own.

But i am open to both discussions and debates, and you should be able to defend your opinions if you are going put them up for scrutiny.

Edited Wednesday at 05:36 PM by 0_The_F00l

[Birdframe_Prime]

3 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

But i am open to both discussions and debates, and you should be able to defend your opinions if you are going put them up for scrutiny.

Quite right.

Here's the problem:

You're expressing opinions on what somebody else, that you are beholden to for the entertainment, should do with the thing they're making that entertains you.

As frustrating as you are finding the slow progress with the story, you don't get to make these demands (and yes, the way you express them is as demands), on a Forum of your Peers without your Peers telling you to sit back down and enjoy what you actually get.

Because that's the correct, and mature response that you should be expressing in this situation. You don't get anything more than what DE gives you, and so absolutely yes you should make the most of what they give you. Even if you're not happy with how.

If you don't like what they give you, in the format they give it to you, then that's on you. You don't have to come and make it our problem by defending an opinion on somebody else's creative process. Because you're certainly not making it DE's problem. DE do read the Forums. They only take Feedback from the Forums in tiny amounts, and only when they're actually looking for a specific topic that they're discussing internally. We know this from... roughly... 11 years of experience.

What you're doing right now is like complaining that it's not raining hard enough for you. You can't do anything about it (except maybe go somewhere that's got more rain), and by this persistent and continuous act of complaining you're not achieving your goal, you're just upsetting others around you who are fine with the situation.

[Zimzala]

Desire != Deserve.

It really is just that simple.

To say that you deserve something others have to make for you just because you want it is entitlement.

It's been over 20 years and I want more Firefly, but I don't deserve more Firefly just because i have sung it's praises for 20+ years.

Seems silly to demand others to obey your desires just because you like the things they make.

[0_The_F00l]

3 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Quite right.

Here's the problem:

You're expressing opinions on what somebody else, that you are beholden to for the entertainment, should do with the thing they're making that entertains you.

As frustrating as you are finding the slow progress with the story, you don't get to make these demands (and yes, the way you express them is as demands), on a Forum of your Peers without your Peers telling you to sit back down and enjoy what you actually get.

Because that's the correct, and mature response that you should be expressing in this situation. You don't get anything more than what DE gives you, and so absolutely yes you should make the most of what they give you. Even if you're not happy with how.

If you don't like what they give you, in the format they give it to you, then that's on you. You don't have to come and make it our problem by defending an opinion on somebody else's creative process. Because you're certainly not making it DE's problem. DE do read the Forums. They only take Feedback from the Forums in tiny amounts, and only when they're actually looking for a specific topic that they're discussing internally. We know this from... roughly... 11 years of experience.

What you're doing right now is like complaining that it's not raining hard enough for you. You can't do anything about it (except maybe go somewhere that's got more rain), and by this persistent and continuous act of complaining you're not achieving your goal, you're just upsetting others around you who are fine with the situation.

What a load of rubbish,

peddle your sad subservience drivel to someone willing to buy it.

Saying that I want something is completely valid and I am within my rights to discuss on the same with the rest of the playerbase, your distaste for it is frankly not my concern.

Whether or not the powers that be recognise it or act on it is up to them. 

I am not going to accept mediocrity when there is possibility of greatness, And i expect better from mature audiences, I expect questions and doubts and the willingness to seek for things that are better.

DE does read the forums occassionally , and some of these discussions give them ideas and get a feel for their player bases preferences. And since the playerbase is so varied there will of course be those that align and oppose certain viewpoints.

Again , You are free to disagree with me that is your right. Telling me to not have opinions and not make demands for changes ? Laughably poor taste.

19 minutes ago, Zimzala said:

Desire != Deserve.

It really is just that simple.

To say that you deserve something others have to make for you just because you want it is entitlement.

It's been over 20 years and I want more Firefly, but I don't deserve more Firefly just because i have sung it's praises for 20+ years.

Seems silly to demand others to obey your desires just because you like the things they make.

Sure , if you want to be pedantic about the title and don't actually want to discuss the topic at hand you can be happy about your accurate observation.

Now if you want to explain why the playerbase does NOT deserve a coherent and complete story after 10 years we can have a discussion, and if you want to highlight what DE should do instead , we can discuss that too.

If of course you actually are interested in the topic at hand.

[Zimzala]

43 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

What a load of rubbish ...

Sure , if you want to be pedantic about the title and don't actually want to discuss the topic at hand you can be happy about your accurate observation.

Now if you want to explain why the playerbase does NOT deserve a coherent and complete story after 10 years we can have a discussion, and if you want to highlight what DE should do instead , we can discuss that too.

If of course you actually are interested in the topic at hand.

Load of rubbish indeed.

The whole reason the player base does not deserve what you desire is simple - they deserve nothing.

Again, you can desire it and pine away that if you ran the world things would be different - but that changes nothing.

The topic at hand is that this is just another entitled rant from a gamer that thinks they deserve things they don't.

There is nothing here to discuss beyond the entitled fantasies of those who think they can shame game makers into bowing to their personal desires, because some arbitrary time has passed.

Great, you want closure to stories. Good for you.

You deserve nothing, the player base deserves nothing.

I am not here to dictate DE's creative direction - neither are you.

Desire what you like, you deserve nothing from DE.

Happy Gaming!

[Birdframe_Prime]

1 hour ago, 0_The_F00l said:

What a load of rubbish,

peddle your sad subservience drivel to someone willing to buy it.

And there we devolve from a discussion into this.

I tried to have a conversation.

You're not getting told not to have opinions. You're getting told to stop throwing your toys out of the pram like a child at everyone else.

Grow up, you're literally acting like a whining toddler. And you're making it our problem.

Edited Wednesday at 07:39 PM by Birdframe_Prime

[Loza03]

3 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

If i am to write warframes story from the beginning - would i know it is a live service game (which warframe has become) or do i write it as a self contained event with a start middle and end (which dark sector was supposed to be).

If its a game that is self contained then yes , i would make a script that is (mostly ) unchanging , there could be variations (or options) to account for limtations in tech or other reasons , like paris instead of rome , death by impaling instead of death by bludgeoning etc.

I would add new stories which were also self contained if i had to make a continuation.

Starting with this part, because it's frankly the crux of the issue.

 

One of two things happens next. Probably both, actually.

The first is the Publisher tells you it won't sell, and you have to change it. Because that's what actually happened. And even if they don't, or we just jump from Dark Sector to Warframe, Steve walks up to you eventually and tells you that it needs to be changed, because the big update they were planning to release in a few months just hit a snag, so they're bringing up a story beat a few updates down the line instead because it's already halfway through development and doesn't need as many assets and new mechanics. You say "but my plan", and Rebecca, still community manager at this point, says "Do you want to tell the playerbase why they haven't had a new shiny in six months? I certainly don't." 

The second is is that, ten years... five... two... a couple months down the line, depending on a variety of things, and you will look at what you have written and realise that it isn't very good. Or rather, that it isn't very good compared to what you could write now. And you've actually seen what the plan shakes out as, and what the art team interpreted your work as and how you can play off that. Also, you just read, played or watched something really interesting, and your mind is buzzing with inspiration.

4 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

P.S. This of course is moot , no two writers are the same , and i could make a story that is complete S#&$ or passable or excellent. If every story was a winner there woould be a lot more award winnners.

I'm sure you're familiar with the story Annikin Starkiller, Padawan of Luke Skywalker, and their battle to save Leia Organa, Princess of Aquilae! Especially their dramatic escape from the exploding Imperial Space Fortress, after which Queen Leia awards them medals and honours, especially the title of 'Lord Protector of Aquilae', especially important given that it still exists and is undamaged. It won several awards, including the Saturn Award for Best Science Fiction Film in 1977!

Very few stories escape drafting. 

4 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

I had to go back and check where the discussion actually started :D

The reason i have drawn attention to it (heroes trope reference) is what you gave as an example is not exclusive to warframe , you could be describing star wars , lord of the ring , harry potter or even the other games like mass effect and destiny. The actual devil is in the details to see if any actual effort was put into the story to flesh it out from warframes perspective.

Star Wars, Lord of the Rings and Harry Potter are classic Hero's Journeys.

You will notice none of these characters have are familiar with the 'Hidden World' outside of stories or occasional strange happenstance at the start of their stories. Mass Effect, maybe - I don't know enough about it. And Destiny isn't a Hero's Journey at all, what with the Guardians starting out thoroughly as a badass superhero. That's a 'Chosen One' Narrative.

4 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Man in the walls "year long setup" is only a matter of perception, was it supposed to actually be revealed over a year or did they draw it out to make it last a year , like spreading a small amount of butter over a large surface of bread. Since its only a matter of perception there ws very little to argue opver , hence why i feel the examples you gave dont really justify your faith.

Aside from Years. Plural. What exactly do you call "We have a villain who's going to take center stage after Ballas is dealt with, lets add in lots of teases and a gradual increase in prominence so players can get excited about their appearance when they become the main antagonist" if not a plan for the future? Regardless of whether they 'padded it out' or not. They wrote in stuff because they knew what would happen next.

Also. Of course it took that long. The game's an MMO-lite/Live Service. Of course they're going to use longform storytelling and have plot points last long periods of time. They literally have to because there's no way to release content fast enough anything else.

4 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

I have no idea on what you mean by Erras naming convention , his role was pretty pointless and abrupt till the end. Felt more like a clown whose chain was getting yanked to fit any role that needed filling at the time.

Erra, the god of plague and mayhem. Aroused from a state of slumber, he takes hold of the leaders of mankind and leads them on a destiny of destruction to bring about the end of Babylon. Righteous and unrighteous are killed alike as the world goes mad.

Hm. That sure does sound familiar doesn't it. It's almost like they knew that Erra was going to mind control the Lotus, and then bring about a plague of madness onto the setting, and decided to give the character a name that reflected that place in the story. Though of course he wasn't getting top billing. Ballas was the face players were invested in punching, after all. 

4 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

This i think is where we have difference of views which cant really be resolved , How do you differentiate between "planned in advance by foreshadowing" against " added a voice line at the last minute" and there can certainly be both instances of such things happening, There can be certain plans made which are followed to a T, but there can also be no plans and things changed last minute. There's definitely enough of both in the game in my opinion.

By the fact that the information in the former adds up and supports itself, and random additions are random. You don't plan by foreshadowing. You foreshadow because you have a plan.

[0_The_F00l]

10 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

And there we devolve from a discussion into this.

I tried to have a conversation.

You're not getting told not to have opinions. You're getting told to stop throwing your toys out of the pram like a child at everyone else.

Grow up, you're literally acting like a whining toddler. And you're making it our problem.

Oh please , you are not attempting to have a conversation you are trying to suppress one. 

I am not sure how I have made it your problem by simply having a discussion about it, once again the part you keep skipping over is that you can indeed disagree with my opinion but you can not tell me to just accept things as they are cause you don't want to hear any alternatives.

This is the last response you will be getting on this ,

We can continue if it's actually about the story cohesiveness but I have no interest in derailing the thread by arguing tangential topics in how to differentiate between sharing opinions vs throwing tantrums. 

 

Edited Thursday at 05:39 AM by 0_The_F00l

[0_The_F00l]

15 hours ago, Loza03 said:

Starting with this part, because it's frankly the crux of the issue.

 

One of two things happens next. Probably both, actually.

The first is the Publisher tells you it won't sell, and you have to change it. Because that's what actually happened. And even if they don't, or we just jump from Dark Sector to Warframe, Steve walks up to you eventually and tells you that it needs to be changed, because the big update they were planning to release in a few months just hit a snag, so they're bringing up a story beat a few updates down the line instead because it's already halfway through development and doesn't need as many assets and new mechanics. You say "but my plan", and Rebecca, still community manager at this point, says "Do you want to tell the playerbase why they haven't had a new shiny in six months? I certainly don't." 

The second is is that, ten years... five... two... a couple months down the line, depending on a variety of things, and you will look at what you have written and realise that it isn't very good. Or rather, that it isn't very good compared to what you could write now. And you've actually seen what the plan shakes out as, and what the art team interpreted your work as and how you can play off that. Also, you just read, played or watched something really interesting, and your mind is buzzing with inspiration.

That is why its important to decide in the beginning if its going to be a self contained story or its going to be live service, Different approaches need to be applied for different processes. You are mixing up both, you need to decide on one or the other and stick to it. My approach to live service would have been as follows:

Make 3 self contained short stories (still cohesive and complete) but relatively independent of each other so order of being told can be mixed but when taken as a whole reveals more info, One of those can be part of actual gameplay focus , the other two can be tidbits received through standard ops (like our fragments and prex cards). Which is which? can be flexible depending on how things work out in development.

Your second part is exactly what i mean and the reason i started this topic , DE can flesh out the existing incomplete pieces which have been unattended for years so you can actually close that chapter , and again closing a chapter is not the same as closing the story.

And i am not even disagreeing with what you are saying here. But you dont need every story to be part of gameplay , some can just be text or voice over , it is a skill to manage it well.

Besides no story survives the first draft just like no battle plan survives the first encounter. I am not even arguing that changes can happen. My point is that if changes have to be made make sure its still cohesive and complete.

15 hours ago, Loza03 said:

I'm sure you're familiar with the story Annikin Starkiller, Padawan of Luke Skywalker, and their battle to save Leia Organa, Princess of Aquilae! Especially their dramatic escape from the exploding Imperial Space Fortress, after which Queen Leia awards them medals and honours, especially the title of 'Lord Protector of Aquilae', especially important given that it still exists and is undamaged. It won several awards, including the Saturn Award for Best Science Fiction Film in 1977!

Very few stories escape drafting.

I agree. And this proves my point as well , star wars is still a cohesive complete film even if different from the book (no i am not going argue over which are better). I specifically said that things can indeed be modified slightly to account for things (usually budget , actor personalities and ego and current political sensibilities)

15 hours ago, Loza03 said:

Star Wars, Lord of the Rings and Harry Potter are classic Hero's Journeys.

You will notice none of these characters have are familiar with the 'Hidden World' outside of stories or occasional strange happenstance at the start of their stories. Mass Effect, maybe - I don't know enough about it. And Destiny isn't a Hero's Journey at all, what with the Guardians starting out thoroughly as a badass superhero. That's a 'Chosen One' Narrative.

I will have to admit MMO type games can be blurry between heroes journey and chosen one tropes as the base template (i didn't actualy play destiny for long myself so i probably shouldnt have mentioned that one) but many stories take bits and pieces of both to tell their story , as destiny tends to bite every hero in the ass sooner or later,

15 hours ago, Loza03 said:

Aside from Years. Plural. What exactly do you call "We have a villain who's going to take center stage after Ballas is dealt with, lets add in lots of teases and a gradual increase in prominence so players can get excited about their appearance when they become the main antagonist" if not a plan for the future? Regardless of whether they 'padded it out' or not. They wrote in stuff because they knew what would happen next.

Also. Of course it took that long. The game's an MMO-lite/Live Service. Of course they're going to use longform storytelling and have plot points last long periods of time. They literally have to because there's no way to release content fast enough anything else.

One relatively well planned story, in an ocean of multiple incomplete ones - yeah , i think i will call it that.

And once again , not all stories need to be game play focused there are multiple media to tell stories - prex cards tell the stories of warframes for example , simaris scans tell stories of entities in the past - need more of those.

15 hours ago, Loza03 said:

Erra, the god of plague and mayhem. Aroused from a state of slumber, he takes hold of the leaders of mankind and leads them on a destiny of destruction to bring about the end of Babylon. Righteous and unrighteous are killed alike as the world goes mad.

Hm. That sure does sound familiar doesn't it. It's almost like they knew that Erra was going to mind control the Lotus, and then bring about a plague of madness onto the setting, and decided to give the character a name that reflected that place in the story. Though of course he wasn't getting top billing. Ballas was the face players were invested in punching, after all.

Oh please, there are enough deities in the world, i personally would have gone with Yaldabaoth or Ananke myself. Names are powerful indeed , but dont put too much faith in them. Erra could have been called Koalemos as a better fit.

15 hours ago, Loza03 said:

By the fact that the information in the former adds up and supports itself, and random additions are random. You don't plan by foreshadowing. You foreshadow because you have a plan.

You missed my point ,

Look at these sequence of events:

1) Story script exists for 6 chapters.

2) 3rd chapter in progress.

3) Decision maker: "Hey we need to add these elements in , will make sense when the new story starts"

4) 4th chapter, someting squeezed in with no impact to actual story,

5) 5th chapter continues unchanged, parallel work starts on the next script.

6) Original script ends,

7) New script started for 6 new chapters.

The above is just as likely as

1) Story script exists for 12 chapters,

2) early Chapters have foreshadowing for later chapters.

 

Edited Thursday at 12:37 PM by 0_The_F00l

[Loza03]

8 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

That is why its important to decide in the beginning if its going to be a self contained story or its going to be live service, Different approaches need to be applied for different processes. You are mixing up both, you need to decide on one or the other and stick to it. My approach to live service would have been as follows:

Make 3 self contained short stories (still cohesive and complete) but relatively independent of each other so order of being told can be mixed but when taken as a whole reveals more info, One of those can be part of actual gameplay focus , the other two can be tidbits received through standard ops (like our fragments and prex cards). Which is which? can be flexible depending on how things work out in development.

The gameplay focus is the main story. That's how it works. That's the one the majority of the playbase interacts with, that's the main story. Most of the existing side-story stuff like Nightwave failed because those unrelated stories are... well, unrelated. You might say that Destiny and Star Wars get away with it, but Star Wars increasingly isn't, and Destiny has learned to, when bringing a lore character in, to give them an introduction in gameplay. How often is there a bunch of exposition regurgitating a summary of the lore that was squirreled away? And even then they partly get away with it thanks to youtube channels like MyNameisByf, which you cannot guarantee are going to latch on to your story.

This also doesn't fix the point of 'but my plan' with the updates. Your gameplay focus story, the main story, will still get encounter difficulties that cannot be accounted for by your neat and tidy pre-arranged variance, and a rigid unchanging plan does not fix that. Having two other narratives going on on the side doesn't help, because you can't bring those in easily. If those characters have only appeared in lore tabs and text until, whoops, gameplay delay, you need substantial new asset production, the hiring of new voice actors and likely new gameplay and mechanics. You're in charge of writing, not releases.

The only way this works is if all three stories have the same billing. Gameplay included. But that cuts plot progression and resources available in thirds. 

8 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Your second part is exactly what i mean and the reason i started this topic , DE can flesh out the existing incomplete pieces which have been unattended for years so you can actually close that chapter , and again closing a chapter is not the same as closing the story.

You failed to understand the second part.

The second part was talking about the experience of being a creative. Specifically, the stuff you wrote ten years ago is not up to snuff, and it's bad enough that's it's already in the game. But if you've shackled yourself to that plot you wrote ten years ago, nothing you make is up to snuff anymore.  You are better and you have more to work with.

9 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Besides no story survives the first draft just like no battle plan survives the first encounter. I am not even arguing that changes can happen. My point is that if changes have to be made make sure its still cohesive and complete.

Except you would write a script that's 'mostly unchanging':

23 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

If its a game that is self contained then yes , i would make a script that is (mostly ) unchanging , there could be variations (or options) to account for limtations in tech or other reasons , like paris instead of rome , death by impaling instead of death by bludgeoning etc.

I would add new stories which were also self contained if i had to make a continuation.

The changes you're talking about aren't really changes to the narrative. Not even stuff like the setting. You are talking about writing a narrative based on a plan that remains entirely unchanged from what you wrote 10 years prior. And to illustrate:

9 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

I agree. And this proves my point as well , star wars is still a cohesive complete film even if different from the book (no i am not going argue over which are better). I specifically said that things can indeed be modified slightly to account for things (usually budget , actor personalities and ego and current political sensibilities)

I cherry picked the most recognisable stuff from that - but even then, the ending of 'The Star Wars' as I described it is irreconcilably different to the end of 'Star Wars'. Aquilae is left standing, Annikin is a proud and well-established member of the Nobility of that independent sovereign nation and they are safe from the Empire for the time being - potentially enough time to raise a new generation of Jedi Bendu. That plot is going in a completely different direction to the end of what actually came out. That's no 'slight modification'. Other changes that I didn't discuss earlier:

• The plot ends with an Imperial Defector joining the heroes.
• Vader isn't as important a villain - he's just another Knight of Sith, a well-established and public series of bad guys (as opposed to shadowy rulers), with another Sith having appeared and summarily dispatched earlier.
• There's no secret lineage reveal (which, by the by, was itself a change in plot as the movies went on) - we meet Leia's biological parents (who get assassinated), and we also meet Annikin's - Kane Starkiller.
• There's no existing rebellion - or at least, the protagonists aren't a part of one. Aquilae is completely independent all by itself, and has been since before the Empire showed up.
• The Empire has no interest in blowing up planets, and it's considerably less powerful since they can't just conquer Aquilae - they have the military power to, but not the power to maintain control without a puppet leader. A rebellion on just one planet is a real threat to their goals.
• Aquilae has access to powerful medical and cloning technology the Empire doesn't have that they could use to even the odds on the empire in a sequel.

It's pretty clear that these changes aren't cosmetic ones like a different setting, or a villain is killed a different way.

(also this is the first draft of the script, not a book. It was always meant to be a film.)

9 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

I will have to admit MMO type games can be blurry between heroes journey and chosen one tropes as the base template (i didn't actualy play destiny for long myself so i probably shouldnt have mentioned that one) but many stories take bits and pieces of both to tell their story , as destiny tends to bite every hero in the ass sooner or later,

If you only take 'bits' of the Hero's journey, it's not the Hero's Journey. The Monomyth (as it is also called) is specifically the structure. It contains so many other tropes because the creator was convinced that there was some great big underlying supernarrative - some 'Monomyth' that underpinned all humanity's storytelling. So naturally, he cast his net super wide so it was easier to group smaller tropes into this big narrative he was constructing. Whether or not he was right at the time is debatable (and I think most people would be on the 'he wasn't') but even if he was, highlighting it just led to people writing in ways to subvert and avoid it.

He still produced a useful narrative structure that's used to this day, but just because a hero has a darkest hour which leads to a dramatic rebirth (The Belly of the Whale, as discussed earlier) doesn't mean that the rest of the narrative that surrounded it has worked that way.

9 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

One relatively well planned story, in an ocean of multiple incomplete ones - yeah , i think i will call it that.

 

Which rather matters when it's the story of the main antagonist moving forwards, and in general, the main plot of the game.

9 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Oh please, there are enough deities in the world, i personally would have gone with Yaldabaoth or Ananke myself. Names are powerful indeed , but dont put too much faith in them. Erra could have been called Koalemos as a better fit.

There might have been better names, but that isn't the point, is it?

The point is that Erra was very intentionally name that matched his role in the narrative, even though that role wasn't revealed yet. You can't exactly do that if that role in the narrative hasn't already been written out. Or planned, you might say.

10 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

You missed my point ,

Look at these sequence of events:

1) Story script exists for 6 chapters.

2) 3rd chapter in progress.

3) Decision maker: "Hey we need to add these elements in , will make sense when the new story starts"

4) 4th chapter, someting squeezed in with no impact to actual story,

5) 5th chapter continues unchanged

6) Original script ends,

7) New script started for 6 new chapters.

The above is just as likely as

1) Story script exists for 12 chapters,

2) early Chapters have foreshadowing for later chapters.

Yes, the above is almost certainly what happened. That's better writing for longform storytelling projects. Like I've been saying the whole time, the plans change and ideas get added on, and the plan grows and evolves over time. That way, when they reach the end of what the original plan is, they have a well-established villain and narrative that the audience is already familiar with and has already been set up, so there's no downtime to jump into the next story. That doesn't change that they have a plan and storytelling intentionally. They aren't throwing random ideas at the wall to see what sticks. Any given update to the story, and DE knows what happens next several updates down the line, and has a good idea as to how the arcs they're starting will end. But even then, they might get a better idea that still works, and adjust the narrative accordingly. That's how creative writing tends to go, especially projects with multiple teams working on them (and that don't have too much backseat developing from Corporate).

[0_The_F00l]

22 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

Yes, the above is almost certainly what happened. That's better writing for longform storytelling projects. Like I've been saying the whole time, the plans change and ideas get added on, and the plan grows and evolves over time. That way, when they reach the end of what the original plan is, they have a well-established villain and narrative that the audience is already familiar with and has already been set up, so there's no downtime to jump into the next story. That doesn't change that they have a plan and storytelling intentionally. They aren't throwing random ideas at the wall to see what sticks. Any given update to the story, and DE knows what happens next several updates down the line, and has a good idea as to how the arcs they're starting will end. But even then, they might get a better idea that still works, and adjust the narrative accordingly. That's how creative writing tends to go, especially projects with multiple teams working on them (and that don't have too much backseat developing from Corporate).

My main bone of contention still remains , I dont mind if the plans change , but dont leave loose ends as part of the plan - make it cohesive and complete even after the changes, i feel like i am saying the same ting over and over again and you are also saying the same thing over and over again and neither of us is actually arguing the same thing.

I dont particularly care if DE had a script from the start or they squeezed elements into something halfway through  (and neither of us has means to prove either) . What i do care about is those individual chapters actually get closure.

29 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

The gameplay focus is the main story. That's how it works. That's the one the majority of the playbase interacts with, that's the main story. Most of the existing side-story stuff like Nightwave failed because those unrelated stories are... well, unrelated. You might say that Destiny and Star Wars get away with it, but Star Wars increasingly isn't, and Destiny has learned to, when bringing a lore character in, to give them an introduction in gameplay. How often is there a bunch of exposition regurgitating a summary of the lore that was squirreled away? And even then they partly get away with it thanks to youtube channels like MyNameisByf, which you cannot guarantee are going to latch on to your story.

This also doesn't fix the point of 'but my plan' with the updates. Your gameplay focus story, the main story, will still get encounter difficulties that cannot be accounted for by your neat and tidy pre-arranged variance, and a rigid unchanging plan does not fix that. Having two other narratives going on on the side doesn't help, because you can't bring those in easily. If those characters have only appeared in lore tabs and text until, whoops, gameplay delay, you need substantial new asset production, the hiring of new voice actors and likely new gameplay and mechanics. You're in charge of writing, not releases.

The only way this works is if all three stories have the same billing. Gameplay included. But that cuts plot progression and resources available in thirds.

I disagree to some aspects of this , i cannot speak for the entire playerbase , but i personally enjoy the side stories, i like knowing about the world i am inhabiting (i am also the kind of person that read most books in skyrim and the terminals in fallout if it paints a clearer picture). I enjoy both the gameplay and the stories unrelated to it. I can acknowledge that not everyone shares the same interest.

I never said which story would be gameplay focused, that i will leave to the developers to fight over (they can pick all or none for that matter) , they would all be equal billed as you have said. DE has already done this multiple times to tell a cohesive story (as much as i disliked the character depth of zariman , it has a lot of this as any of the static lores could be replaced by the expositions during gameplay or during syndicate progression and things remain largely the same).

39 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

You failed to understand the second part.

The second part was talking about the experience of being a creative. Specifically, the stuff you wrote ten years ago is not up to snuff, and it's bad enough that's it's already in the game. But if you've shackled yourself to that plot you wrote ten years ago, nothing you make is up to snuff anymore.  You are better and you have more to work with.

That feels rather harsh and untrue. But doesnt change my viewpoint , if I have an incomplete "not up to snuff" plot hanging loose , i will tie it off using my now new skills to polish as much as i can , if its bad , its bad , but at least its complete.

43 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

Except you would write a script that's 'mostly unchanging'

Did you not read? If its for a standalone game , then yes i will , you are again mixing up live service and standalone story telling, they are both needing different approaches.

44 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

The changes you're talking about aren't really changes to the narrative. Not even stuff like the setting. You are talking about writing a narrative based on a plan that remains entirely unchanged from what you wrote 10 years prior. And to illustrate:

I cherry picked the most recognisable stuff from that - but even then, the ending of 'The Star Wars' as I described it is irreconcilably different to the end of 'Star Wars'. Aquilae is left standing, Annikin is a proud and well-established member of the Nobility of that independent sovereign nation and they are safe from the Empire for the time being - potentially enough time to raise a new generation of Jedi Bendu. That plot is going in a completely different direction to the end of what actually came out. That's no 'slight modification'. Other changes that I didn't discuss earlier:

• The plot ends with an Imperial Defector joining the heroes.
• Vader isn't as important a villain - he's just another Knight of Sith, a well-established and public series of bad guys (as opposed to shadowy rulers), with another Sith having appeared and summarily dispatched earlier.
• There's no secret lineage reveal (which, by the by, was itself a change in plot as the movies went on) - we meet Leia's biological parents (who get assassinated), and we also meet Annikin's - Kane Starkiller.
• There's no existing rebellion - or at least, the protagonists aren't a part of one. Aquilae is completely independent all by itself, and has been since before the Empire showed up.
• The Empire has no interest in blowing up planets, and it's considerably less powerful since they can't just conquer Aquilae - they have the military power to, but not the power to maintain control without a puppet leader. A rebellion on just one planet is a real threat to their goals.
• Aquilae has access to powerful medical and cloning technology the Empire doesn't have that they could use to even the odds on the empire in a sequel.

It's pretty clear that these changes aren't cosmetic ones like a different setting, or a villain is killed a different way.

(also this is the first draft of the script, not a book. It was always meant to be a film.)

As i said , i am not against changes, my point is that they are all coherent and complete even after the changes.

49 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

If you only take 'bits' of the Hero's journey, it's not the Hero's Journey. The Monomyth (as it is also called) is specifically the structure. It contains so many other tropes because the creator was convinced that there was some great big underlying supernarrative - some 'Monomyth' that underpinned all humanity's storytelling. So naturally, he cast his net super wide so it was easier to group smaller tropes into this big narrative he was constructing. Whether or not he was right at the time is debatable (and I think most people would be on the 'he wasn't') but even if he was, highlighting it just led to people writing in ways to subvert and avoid it.

He still produced a useful narrative structure that's used to this day, but just because a hero has a darkest hour which leads to a dramatic rebirth (The Belly of the Whale, as discussed earlier) doesn't mean that the rest of the narrative that surrounded it has worked that way.

I disagree partially , you can take the core concept from the heros journey even without ever being aware of it ( i am also not referencing any singular writer but the concept so not sure who you mean by "He") . If it is right or wrong is indeed debatable but many stories with protagoniists do tend to retain most of these tropes,

1 hour ago, Loza03 said:

Which rather matters when it's the story of the main antagonist moving forwards, and in general, the main plot of the game.

Hmm , not sure of that.

1 hour ago, Loza03 said:

There might have been better names, but that isn't the point, is it?

The point is that Erra was very intentionally name that matched his role in the narrative, even though that role wasn't revealed yet. You can't exactly do that if that role in the narrative hasn't already been written out. Or planned, you might say.

I honestly dont know what the point of Erra was (and how his name choice makes any difference to anyone other than those thats study mythos). I wish we had space grandma instead (and do explain why she is dead despite being teased to be alive and well ?).

For this particular thing (separate from the debate we are having so far as i think those are a reasonable views to have even if i disagree with it) i think you are finding patterns where there really arent any. i wouldn't even call him a false villain despite how it ends.

 

[Loza03]

2 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

My main bone of contention still remains , I dont mind if the plans change , but dont leave loose ends as part of the plan - make it cohesive and complete even after the changes, i feel like i am saying the same ting over and over again and you are also saying the same thing over and over again and neither of us is actually arguing the same thing.

I dont particularly care if DE had a script from the start or they squeezed elements into something halfway through  (and neither of us has means to prove either) . What i do care about is those individual chapters actually get closure.

Then you probably shouldn't have made the silly claim that they 'Don't look forward more than the next prime access'.

As for closure, that's not a luxury DE can afford. Every plot thread closed is a thread they can't easily open again going forwards. For example - Narmer. They write the Narmer changes to the system as being permanent, and that messes with all the pre New-War content. They write Narmer as being soundly defeated and going away forever, players will rightfully complain that they don't get new repeatable content.

So what happens? Narmer gets a new figurehead and remains as a wild card human/sentient faction sitting in the background that can become relevant again when the plot or gameplay needs a shake-up.

Most of the main story threads that are left dangling are like that. When you're writing for the foreseeable future, closing a door is a big risk, that needs to be itself justified. As you say: Live Service games need a different approach. And this is that difference.

2 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

I disagree to some aspects of this , i cannot speak for the entire playerbase , but i personally enjoy the side stories, i like knowing about the world i am inhabiting (i am also the kind of person that read most books in skyrim and the terminals in fallout if it paints a clearer picture). I enjoy both the gameplay and the stories unrelated to it. I can acknowledge that not everyone shares the same interest.

I also enjoy them! A lot! Very much the same kind of player. You should see my inventory in Baldur's Gate 3 and Divinity Original sin 2. But the majority of the playerbase isn't like that and won't decide to do that. I'm not talking my preference. I'm talking the facts: Hardcore Lore Nuts are the exception. They're an exception creators love - passion begets passion, stories beget stories - but there's just as much of a group on the other side of the coin that hate the cutscenes and the narrative all together, and in between are the people who enjoy the story but aren't interested in reading. They want to get back to shooting Grineer, or cornering the trading market, and so on and so forth.

You acknowledge not everyone shares the same interest. Warframe needs to appeal to all these groups of players, and hinging a narrative on the side stories is a risky gambit.

2 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

I never said which story would be gameplay focused, that i will leave to the developers to fight over (they can pick all or none for that matter) , they would all be equal billed as you have said. DE has already done this multiple times to tell a cohesive story (as much as i disliked the character depth of zariman , it has a lot of this as any of the static lores could be replaced by the expositions during gameplay or during syndicate progression and things remain largely the same).

Whichever story gets the gameplay is the one with top billing. Whichever stories do not are not. This counts for narrative bites that are presented as Narrative rewards, such as the stories between rank up. Executor Tuvul's speeches that elaborate on why the Zariman project went the way it did? They aren't important. They're fun for lore nerds like us, so they get used as a bonus for exploration, tucked away to the side. Anyone who isn't interested doesn't have to watch them - and won't.

And so, if that does become important later for whatever reason? What's said in those recordings will be retold directly to everyone.

2 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

That feels rather harsh and untrue. But doesnt change my viewpoint , if I have an incomplete "not up to snuff" plot hanging loose , i will tie it off using my now new skills to polish as much as i can , if its bad , its bad , but at least its complete.

It's harsh yes. It's also true. I've been writing over ten years, and the writing I did ten years ago is awful. I was a literal child at the time, but that's the difference that amount of time makes. No amount of polish will make those stories not bad - it would need fundamental rewriting. And if hundreds of other people are relying on that story to feed themselves and their families, 'Bad but polished' isn't good enough.

To clarify, I don't hate those old stories. I'm proud of the fact I wrote them. But they are awful.

To further illustrate, a period of about seven years is the difference between the Earthbound Halloween Hack and Undertale. The difference in Toby Fox's writing is night and day. The Order of the Stick is another excellent example of the quality of writing evolving, including a difference I feel outright uncomfortable illustrating personally. If you would like it, follow the links below, and please be aware of spoilers.

Spoiler

20 Arcanolypse Now - Giant in the Playground Games (giantitp.com) Release year: 2003

 639 If They Pull a Knife... - Giant in the Playground Games (giantitp.com) Release year: 2009

The difference in question is the 'Immoral spell' in question. But early Order of the Stick is generally pretty bland 'joke of the day' that takes a bit to grow its beard in, though it does so quite quickly. 

2 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Did you not read? If its for a standalone game , then yes i will , you are again mixing up live service and standalone story telling, they are both needing different approaches.

Star Wars was a standalone movie too, and I've illustrated how much that changed already between its first draft and final product. My further thoughts of the differences between live service and not have been discussed earlier - though to note, the only big difference you noted was writing three scripts instead of one, so I felt confident in the understanding that those scripts were to be understood as unchanging too.

2 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

I disagree partially , you can take the core concept from the heros journey even without ever being aware of it ( i am also not referencing any singular writer but the concept so not sure who you mean by "He") . If it is right or wrong is indeed debatable but many stories with protagoniists do tend to retain most of these tropes,

Joseph Campbell, author of 'The Hero with a thousand faces'. His work openly influenced Star Wars itself. Indeed, you can even see this in the draft changes. The main protagonist goes from a well-established hero to a farmboy, for example.

Quite notably, his work is subject to much criticism and debate amongst folklorists. Much as Isaac Newton's work is no longer considered as being entirely accurate.

2 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Hmm , not sure of that.

To clarify you are 'not sure' if the fact that the main antagonist of the central narrative of the game being a well-written and well-planned aspect is an important point?

2 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

I honestly dont know what the point of Erra was (and how his name choice makes any difference to anyone other than those thats study mythos). I wish we had space grandma instead (and do explain why she is dead despite being teased to be alive and well ?).

I don't think Erra was a great character either, nor do I know why they decided to rewrite the manipulator from the mother to the brother. But personal feelings towards the character aren't relevant regarding this debate.

As for why his name choice makes a difference: it reflects his role. Erra's a manipulator, awakened after many years of slumber who mind controls a leader of humanity to bring about its downfall. They knew what they were doing with the character, and gave him a meaningful name that matched what he was going to do in the Narrative. Naming him Yaldabaoth, for example, wouldn't do that, because Yaldabaoth is a mythological figure that's very different - the Demiurge that already had control. Erra is a slumbering evil. Yaldabaoth is the mythological equivalent of the evil emperor.

Edited Thursday at 07:01 PM by Loza03

[Birdframe_Prime]

16 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

This is the last response you will be getting on this

Awww... that's adorable...

You're not being told to accept it because we don't want to hear other options.

You're being told to accept it because you don't have other options. You are beholden to DE, and you're presenting a very, very bad case for ever changing their mind about how they release their content.

You're being told to accept it because you're whining about something you can't change, and this is a Forum of your Peers. At least they were until you lowered yourself to this diatribe, covered your ears against any people telling you to stop, and whined louder.