The death of prime weapons

[CoNsTaNt1nE-UK1]

How can a torid incarnon have a 4-5 dispo but newly released primes have a 1?

Really trying to understand the logic behind it, am I missing something? When u gotta use the vanilla variant and wait a year for the dispo to go up surely that's a problem.

[Agall]

6 minutes ago, CoNsTaNt1nE-UK1 said:

How can a torid incarnon have a 4-5 dispo but newly released primes have a 1?

Really trying to understand the logic behind it, am I missing something? When u gotta use the vanilla variant and wait a year for the dispo to go up surely that's a problem.

Because Torid's dispo was that high before Incarnon. DE was about to nerf them all and decided not to, instead just keeping them where they're at and only adjusting extreme edge cases. All new weapons start with low dispo which then goes up over time with low usage.

Incarnons are also designed to be the absolute end gate weapons now. They're also the highest investment weapons in the game and generally the best. The only exceptions I can think of are Glaive Prime and now Harmony (but I'm also an almost exclusively melee only player).

Torid isn't particularly more powerful than a lot of the other incarnons, it just had the significant usability advantage of not requiring headshots to proc its incarnon, which a lot of console players find worth using.

[Zakkhar]

22 minutes ago, CoNsTaNt1nE-UK1 said:

How can a torid incarnon have a 4-5 dispo but newly released primes have a 1?

The stars are not the actual dispo value. Newly released weapons have 0,5. Torid has 1,3

[Xylena_Lazarow]

16 minutes ago, CoNsTaNt1nE-UK1 said:

How can a torid incarnon have a 4-5 dispo but newly released primes have a 1? Really trying to understand the logic behind it, am I missing something? When u gotta use the vanilla variant and wait a year for the dispo to go up surely that's a problem.

Primes seem intended to be mid tier weapons, because anyone can immediately buy them via Prime Access. They're keeping the Incarnon dispos high because they know the dispo system is flawed, they want rivens for endgame weapons to remain desirable to move plat. I remember DE mentioning that during the Kohm meta, they kept the Kohm dispo artificially high so that people's expensive status threshhold rivens wouldn't suddenly fall below the threshhold and become worthless.

[CoNsTaNt1nE-UK1]

1 hour ago, Zakkhar said:

The stars are not the actual dispo value. Newly released weapons have 0,5. Torid has 1,3

Yea I'm aware of it I play the game mainly for rivens/trading but the issue is primes are not as highly anticipated as they once were. At the very least they should start with the same dispo as the vanilla variant surely that's fair! If not then the weapon variation dies as far as I can see. Toridframe 1999

[(PSN)MJ-Cena7]

prime weapons should not have lower dispo than their base varient its a big problem DE CREATED as new weapons had good riven dispo and high prices and were nerfed over time making people angry 

rivens are completely messed up right now incarnons have the highest damage and riven dispo which makes them the only weapons worth investing in or using killing most new weapons 

[(PSN)Sentiel]

26 minutes ago, CoNsTaNt1nE-UK1 said:

Yea I'm aware of it I play the game mainly for rivens/trading but the issue is primes are not as highly anticipated as they once were. At the very least they should start with the same dispo as the vanilla variant surely that's fair! If not then the weapon variation dies as far as I can see. Toridframe 1999

I agree with this.

While it's a new item it's the same weapon, so the Dispo should be the same.

[Tiltskillet]

I could see them releasing primes with a set dispo modifier of something like -0.3 below the base version.  (Floor of 0.5 of course.)  Offhand it seems like most primes settle at 0.25 - 0.10 below the base.

As far as Incarnon goes, I wish they'd found a way to separate the dispos on weapons that have an adapter installed versus those that don't.    Because of course the current situation is absurd, even judging it just by DE's own statements about how and why dispo is balanced.

 

[CoNsTaNt1nE-UK1]

3 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

I could see them releasing primes with a set dispo modifier of something like -0.3 below the base version.  (Floor of 0.5 of course.)  Offhand it seems like most primes settle at 0.25 - 0.10 below the base.

As far as Incarnon goes, I wish they'd found a way to separate the dispos on weapons that have an adapter installed versus those that don't.    Because of course the current situation is absurd, even judging it just by DE's own statements about how and why dispo is balanced.

 

I agree!

The statements made about the reason for the new weapons having low disposition is completely invalid at this point. It's hypocrisy if anything with all due respect. 

I'm not asking for a 5 dispo cedo but at least so the weapon feels like an upgrade on launch! 

I waited years for the fulmin p I spent a fortune on 2 rivens for it and I'm still patiently watching it creep up slowly and I'm sure there's people with fan favourites out there going through the same issue.

[(PSN)Sentiel]

Hot take but I would just scrap the whole Dispo system. Thanks to Incarnons, it's obsolete anyway.

Give all weapons Dispo 1 and that's it.

[CoNsTaNt1nE-UK1]

6 hours ago, (PSN)Sentiel said:

Hot take but I would just scrap the whole Dispo system. Thanks to Incarnons, it's obsolete anyway.

Give all weapons Dispo 1 and that's it.

Maybe a little too harsh on the lower tier weapons. A good example is the nikanas, while I personally believe the nikana prime is unrivalled, there is a cult out there that swear by the dragon nikana due to the dispo! Which is completely fair as it is infact disputed.

Right now incarnons are undisputed, I just want a fair playing field where I can get creative and make it a dispute! But right now it seems everything else has been thrown under the bus. 

We probably have the cedo coming soon, such a neat weapon when it first came but, nobody's gonna care when the prime arrives and we all know why 🥴

 

[H8FaTe]

On 2024-06-26 at 3:34 PM, CoNsTaNt1nE-UK1 said:

How can a torid incarnon have a 4-5 dispo but newly released primes have a 1?

Riven Dipo is based on "Currently Used weapons by community", If a Certain None-Prime / Prime version being used by ALOT of players
This will drop a % of Dipo and thus after enough ppl lets say 60-70% using almost the same (especilly new or fairly new that ppl still need to get MR)

These weapons drops about 4 of 5 of its depo and becomes 1-star depo.

This only COUNTS if you using an RIVEN for the weapon, If you using the weapon disgard of the Riven Dipo, (no riven equiped) does NOT mean it is "dying or garbage"
- Riven Disposition only affect the strength of the Riven mod itself, less ppl use the weap = stronger an riven is on that weapon.

[H8FaTe]

Here is an Example of an (4-modded) Riven = More Stats = less Strength PER "bonus/negativity"

-------------------------------------------------------------
Consider "Weapon" to have Riven Disposition of 5/5
# Heat 155%
# Ammo Maximum 120.6%
# Cold 155.8%
# Slash -85.8%
-------------------------------------------------------------

Now Consider the "Weapon" to be used by about
75% of the Community, Riven Dipo 1/5

-------------------------------------------------------------
Consider "Weapon" to have Riven Disposition of 1/5
# Heat 62%
# Ammo Maximum 48,2%
# Cold 62,32%
# Slash -34,3%
-------------------------------------------------------------

This is the following stats it would be if it was at it's weakest "Riven Power State"
As i mentioned (Weapons Strength) is based only for purpose of RIVEN.
And does not mean its "Crap, Bad, Horrible, useless" or whatever nonsense people say.

Weapons are still as good without an Riven, Sure you may miss out on the (CRIT, Crit-Dmg, Element) as some example an riven can provide.
A purpose of a RIVEN MOD is basicly to make 3 to 4 "Current mods" into ONE. basicly squeezing in MORE power in a small lovely but expensive Riven.

Take this to heart as an explanation of how and what an RIVEN DIPO actully means.
- Some weapons will nowdays (as seems) never go stronger then +2 or +3, because it becomes an Genré "must have, must use"....

some people may even call it "Its Meta, must use and always best"... this is somewhat a lie though as Weapons are made in so many ways to SUITE each and every persons liking.
Some hate Snipes... some hate Shotguns... some hate Bows... Some hate Auto-shooting weapons.

This is why Warframe has so many choices, Find what you love, Like and enjoy and use it!

[H8FaTe]

@CoNsTaNt1nE-UK1 I hope i explained it good enough

[CoNsTaNt1nE-UK1]

15 minutes ago, H8FaTe said:

Riven Dipo is based on "Currently Used weapons by community", If a Certain None-Prime / Prime version being used by ALOT of players
This will drop a % of Dipo and thus after enough ppl lets say 60-70% using almost the same (especilly new or fairly new that ppl still need to get MR)

These weapons drops about 4 of 5 of its depo and becomes 1-star depo.

This only COUNTS if you using an RIVEN for the weapon, If you using the weapon disgard of the Riven Dipo, (no riven equiped) does NOT mean it is "dying or garbage"
- Riven Disposition only affect the strength of the Riven mod itself, less ppl use the weap = stronger an riven is on that weapon.

I believe your missing the point of the post 

[H8FaTe]

Just now, CoNsTaNt1nE-UK1 said:

I believe your missing the point of the post 

No i did not miss the point.

When you Mentioned "new weapons has riven dipo 1" - as i mentioned its because about all in the community is currently "obtaining" the new weapon, leveling it for MR and adding formas.
This how it always has been and are not changing its weap Dipo until its been out for atleast 4 Months.

[CoNsTaNt1nE-UK1]

8 minutes ago, H8FaTe said:

No i did not miss the point.

When you Mentioned "new weapons has riven dipo 1" - as i mentioned its because about all in the community is currently "obtaining" the new weapon, leveling it for MR and adding formas.
This how it always has been and are not changing its weap Dipo until its been out for atleast 4 Months.

https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1199009-riven-disposition-procedure-for-new-weapons/

[H8FaTe]

1 hour ago, CoNsTaNt1nE-UK1 said:

https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1199009-riven-disposition-procedure-for-new-weapons/

Thank you for pointing out exactly what i just mentioned and explained.
- You just made yourself look bad

[Fred_Avant_2019]

Le 26/06/2024 à 18:26, Tiltskillet a dit :

I could see them releasing primes with a set dispo modifier of something like -0.3 below the base version.  (Floor of 0.5 of course.)  Offhand it seems like most primes settle at 0.25 - 0.10 below the base.

Agreed, as long as the weapons are identical mechanically speaking (Trigger type, same bullet/projectile type), there isn't much reason for it to be far apart.

The thing is even the minimum stat modifier (0.5) should get updated. Even at 0.6, Kuva Bramma rivens are still basically worthless unless you're looking at two stats + harmless negative ones, and even then they have stats comparable to unmaxed mods. This is the sort of weapon where you could justify using Vigilante Armaments over a riven. That statement alone should raise a couple questions.

IMHO, 0.75 should be the bare minimum. We're long past the point where balance is regulated by mods only. Firing modes and projectile types have quite clearly taken over, Torid incarnon serves as the elephant in the room, Latron is just as idiotic and should rise back to popularity since Auto Fire is a thing. Both of them sit at 1.3 Riven Disposition though. Meanwhile, something as borderline pointless as a Rubico Prime is still at 0.65 dispo. Tragic. It's not 2018 anymore, we have actual weaponry to oneshot Eidolons now. And we can armor strip them.

Il y a 6 heures, H8FaTe a dit :

some people may even call it "Its Meta, must use and always best"... this is somewhat a lie though as Weapons are made in so many ways to SUITE each and every persons liking.
Some hate Snipes... some hate Shotguns... some hate Bows... Some hate Auto-shooting weapons.

This is why Warframe has so many choices, Find what you love, Like and enjoy and use it!

Until you're tired of being carried in every mission because you can't help but love the Stug. Don't get me wrong, I do love me some off-meta picks, my 48th most used primary is a Vulkar Wraith, my 34th is the Cernos Prime. Not exactly meta defining. I've used the Twin Rogga more than I have used 20 of the Prime variants in the secondary slot, FAR REMOVED FROM META. But at the same time, Ignis Wraith, Tenet Cycron and Praedos are my top 1 in each slot. Sure you will prefer certain weapons over others, but in the end you'll pick something that does the job. Volt isn't really too popular as a starter frame, but once you get to like the game and want to do some farming, you'll pick him up. Weapons aren't so different. You'll go back to those you like when chilling, but when you do seriousbusiness(TM), you'll pick what's efficient.

[Tiltskillet]

On 2024-06-26 at 10:17 AM, (PSN)Sentiel said:

Hot take but I would just scrap the whole Dispo system. Thanks to Incarnons, it's obsolete anyway.

Give all weapons Dispo 1 and that's it.

Yeah, I'm so tired of people with rivened up Harpaks dominating the game.  About time they got a nerf.  Finally my multi/damage/RoF Laetum riven may be worth using and I'll be able to get a kill now and then.

[Pakaku]

All new weapons start at the lowest disposition, including primes, because disposition can only go upwards from there. That is supposed to be the less-worse option than letting rivens start higher and potentially sink based on high usage, because a disposition that lowers means your riven will become relatively less effective

Torid is an ancient weapon that was unpopular, so it had plenty of time to accumulate a very high disposition. If the Torid rises and stays popular enough, the dispositon will sink, and even then only by a small amount per disposition update

Edited June 28 by Pakaku

[CoNsTaNt1nE-UK1]

13 hours ago, H8FaTe said:

Thank you for pointing out exactly what i just mentioned and explained.
- You just made yourself look bad

U actually said it was always that way when clearly this was a significant change js 😄

Point is primes/new weapons are very underwhelming right now and that's all I care about tbh, not how savvy you think you may be when it comes to the history of riven dispo.

[CoNsTaNt1nE-UK1]

7 hours ago, Pakaku said:

All new weapons start at the lowest disposition, including primes, because disposition can only go upwards from there. That is supposed to be the less-worse option than letting rivens start higher and potentially sink based on high usage, because a disposition that lowers means your riven will become relatively less effective

Torid is an ancient weapon that was unpopular, so it had plenty of time to accumulate a very high disposition. If the Torid rises and stays popular enough, the dispositon will sink, and even then only by a small amount per disposition update

Do u think it would be a good or bad idea to accelerate increases and keep decreases as they are? 

[Pakaku]

2 minutes ago, CoNsTaNt1nE-UK1 said:

Do u think it would be a good or bad idea to accelerate increases and keep decreases as they are? 

I think rivens are nice but a weapon shouldn't be judged by its riven disposition, so I'm kind of indifferent to the rate their dispositions change. I just wish they would stop releasing primes with base stats that are mediocre, compared to what their originals can reach with a riven attached.

[CoNsTaNt1nE-UK1]

10 minutes ago, Pakaku said:

I think rivens are nice but a weapon shouldn't be judged by its riven disposition, so I'm kind of indifferent to the rate their dispositions change. I just wish they would stop releasing primes with base stats that are mediocre, compared to what their originals can reach with a riven attached.

Yea if not that then at least the base stats gotta be a little more beefy to keep up with today's warframe. But yea the whole 'original is better' on prime launch is clearly a disaster! Its common sense at this point. 

I may be speaking a little biased as I personally love rivens but I get it.