Why does the community want DE to hold our hand?

[_Eclips3_]

So I've been reading discussions with arguments supporting aspects like time gating crafting timers and daily syndicate standing caps  which are used to prevent grown adults from playing the game too much similar to how children have a bed time and when they're up too late, the parents turn off the internet to prevent them staying up too late and being tired the next day. Don't you think grown adults deserve autonomy in how they spend their free time?

I guarantee you wouldn't appreciate your boss telling you to stop playing flappy bird on your lunch break while you're eating your sandwich, why do you want to give DE the same power to dictate the amount of time you're allowed to sink into a game or how much time you can sink into each system? It's the same thing with the limited number of Arcanes you could acquire during the event, to prevent you from playing the game too much, it was limited to 42 single Clan Arcanes. What next, we can't play The First Descendant or Destiny 2 as a new part of the TOS and the game has to be installed on a Kernel level and scans for the files, resulting in account deletion on detection? Imagine if every game had an inbuilt timer that automatically locks the game past 1 hour or you have to craft the next chapter of the game for 72 hours to prevent burn out.

I don't see how people are ok with this. The fact people don't really stand up for their own autonomy kind of concerns me.

[NekroArts]

Just now, _Eclips3_ said:

So I've been reading discussions with arguments supporting aspects like time gating crafting timers and daily syndicate standing caps  which are used to prevent grown adults from playing the game too much similar to how children have a bed time and when they're up too late, the parents turn off the internet to prevent them staying up too late and being tired the next day. Don't you think grown adults deserve autonomy in how they spend their free time?

At first glance these arguments looks like it's in the best interest for the players, but really it's to benefit the company. If someone is using these to support time gating and daily/weekly caps, they're the kind that knows that game studios are still businesses.

[MrInubis]

I will defend because its good design decision. It makes it so you dont miss out without playing 10h a day like in some other games.

[_Eclips3_]

5 minutes ago, NekroArts said:

At first glance these arguments looks like it's in the best interest for the players, but really it's to benefit the company. If someone is using these to support time gating and daily/weekly caps, they're the kind that knows that game studios are still businesses.

Yeah, I assumed it's a business decision, for example limiting the arcanes in the BOB event would prevent the market being flooded with high tier arcanes, causing less plat being bought. Not sure how the time gating helps profits though?

4 minutes ago, kuciol said:

I will defend because its good design decision. It makes it so you dont miss out without playing 10h a day like in some other games.

You won't miss out on anything, you can play at your own pace. So you just revealed you want others being limited to prevent people with more time on their hands from getting ahead despite the fact that it doesn't really affect you? Pretty selfish isn't it?

Edited July 24 by _Eclips3_

[MrInubis]

If you cant comprehend even this than there is no point in further discussion. Also 1 major flaw in your op post. Not only adults play this game.

[Quest]

It has nothing to do with the players' wellbeing.

[_Eclips3_]

1 minute ago, kuciol said:

If you cant comprehend even this than there is no point in further discussion. Also 1 major flaw in your op post. Not only adults play this game.

Can't comprehend what, that you want to limit other players to prevent them from getting ahead of you in a game that allows you to play at your own pace and that everyone must play at your pace? And sure, children might play this game but technically it's rated M meaning it's not for children. Besides, it's up to the parent to raise their children, not the company. The parents can limit the time their kid plays.

[CosoMalvadoNG]

hace 21 minutos, _Eclips3_ dijo:

Don't you think grown adults deserve autonomy in how they spend their free time?

No company wants sick people to have something happen to them while they stupidly play their game without taking their health into account. That's why most games put timers in their games.

Edit: Time for bosses, time for guild war, time in every central system in a game. It hasn't just been one case of people who died from playing too much and their families sued the companies.

Edited July 24 by CosoMalvadoNG

[_Eclips3_]

10 minutes ago, Quest said:

It has nothing to do with the players' wellbeing.

Yeah I figured that out

Edited July 24 by _Eclips3_

[trst]

It's good for players because it's good for the game by stopping the bulk of players who would either one-shot things and burn out or who'd just outright burnout by not taking breaks. Padding in some shape or form is a necessity to keep players engaging regularly, and if it wasn't things like caps and time gates it'd be something else.

And while I can't speak for everyone in my experience the very generous daily caps we have (once you've bothered with MR) and time gates that aren't barring gameplay is a lot better than the alternatives.

[Zakkhar]

16 hours ago, _Eclips3_ said:

So I've been reading discussions with arguments supporting aspects like time gating crafting timers and daily syndicate standing caps  which are used to prevent grown adults from playing the game too much similar to how children have a bed time and when they're up too late, the parents turn off the internet to prevent them staying up too late and being tired the next day. Don't you think grown adults deserve autonomy in how they spend their free time?

I am, generally against handholding, but you seem to be missing a point. Let my "friend" here give you a bit of perspective:

In short, certain caps are warranted and certain others completely ridiculous and reek of mobile P2W games.

Arcane cap, though has nothing to do with players wellbeing, it is just marketed as such. It is simply an attempt to control the supply of arcanes on the market. Possibly something to do with Tencent pandering and Asian gaming culture.

Western community doesnt want that, it is just Stokholm Syndrome or Simping.

Edited July 25 by Zakkhar

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

Ask parents why you can't feed kids ice cream all day, and just listen to them when the kid says they never want vegetables and want to hit people with sticks all day.

[OniDax]

The purpose isn't to prevent people from no-lifing the game.

The purpose was originally to stretch out the thin content. They don't want people running through the content quickly and then dumping the game. Those people are less likely to spend money on the game.

As well, they're probably counting on impatient people purchasing the items they can purchase, or spending money to rush the content. They have to make their money some kind of way. It's not a big deal imo.

Edited July 24 by OniDax

[_Eclips3_]

7 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Ask parents why you can't feed kids ice cream all day, and just listen to them when the kid says they never want vegetables and want to hit people with sticks all day.

Yep, then after their explanation, as a person with no relationship to them what so ever and has no right to infringe their autonomy, follow them around until they've worn their shoes for more than an hour and forcibly rip them off their feet and give an arbitrary reason such as "I'm worried you might wear them too long UwU" or "It's for your own health, I don't want your feet to be all sweaty baka."

Edited July 24 by _Eclips3_

[MrInubis]

44 minutes ago, _Eclips3_ said:

Can't comprehend what, that you want to limit other players to prevent them from getting ahead of you in a game that allows you to play at your own pace and that everyone must play at your pace? And sure, children might play this game but technically it's rated M meaning it's not for children. Besides, it's up to the parent to raise their children, not the company. The parents can limit the time their kid plays.

You did just relog to other account because nobody agreed with you on the other topic didnt you? You just make them in bad faith, therefor its pointless to even try expaining.

[_Eclips3_]

Just now, kuciol said:

You did just relog to other account because nobody agreed with you on the other topic didnt you? You just make them in bad faith, therefor its pointless to even try expaining.

..... What?

33 minutes ago, OniDax said:

The purpose isn't to prevent people from no-lifing the game.

The purpose was originally to stretch out the thin content. They don't want people running through the content quickly and then dumping the game. Those people are less likely to spend money on the game.

As well, they're probably counting on impatient people purchasing the items they can purchase, or spending money to rush the content. They have to make their money some kind of way. It's not a big deal imo.

Would make the most sense considering most content is just a couple new missions that you're supposed to play over and over again.

[CosoMalvadoNG]

Cita

''Wu Tai, 24, collapsed in an unnamed Internet cafe in Shanghai during a marathon session of the popular massively multiplayer online role-playing game, reports The Mirror. Paramedics attending the scene tried to resuscitate Wu, but he was already dead. This isn't the first death associated with extended gaming sessions''.

 

Cita

''A 32-year-old man was found dead in an Internet cafe in Taiwan after a marathon three-day gaming binge, the island’s second death of an online gamer this year.''

Cita

''A South Korean man has died after reportedly playing an online computer game for 50 hours with few breaks.''

Cita

''Man Dies From Blood Clot After Marathon Gaming''

Just some cases that you find when searching on google, it takes you 5 minutes to read.

As I already said, no gaming company wants similar scandals or lawsuits resulting from these scandals.  Personally, I think it's good that they do this since people like you prove that they are right, you just need to have a work, going to school or going to the doctor, you could have attention deficit or some other mental illness..

Edited July 24 by CosoMalvadoNG

[MrInubis]

Same smug attitude, same resistance to common logic, same dismisal of arguments just because they dont line up with your wrong point of view. You are not fooling anyone

[Numerounius]

WF is FTP. Which means it will naturally generate a lot of discussion like the crafting timers and standing caps as a result of being some of the first systems the players encounter in the game. It does not represent the game of Warframe as a whole though.

[DanyPrime555]

The incarnon bug still not fixed?

[_Eclips3_]

13 minutes ago, CosoMalvadoNG said:

 

Just some cases that you find when searching on google, it takes you 5 minutes to read.

As I already said, no gaming company wants similar scandals or lawsuits resulting from these scandals.  Personally, I think it's good that they do this since if you complain it's because you probably have a lot of free time or have an attention deficit, you just need to have a work, going to school or going to the doctor.

Clearly these people had their own issues that had no relation to the game, it's not the companies fault people can't see that, nobody else should "suffer" (not really suffering but you get what I mean) because of an exception.

The reason I'm complaining about it is, similar to the video about "Why new players quit." I have 1 week off, I'm loosing 3 days to craft a warframe loosing 12 hours per weapon. I won't get any time to enjoy the weapons I've been waiting for after my 1 week holiday. Most of it will be grinding for the Weapon/WF before I have to drive my GF to the shops or work or a dentist appointment.

Edited July 24 by _Eclips3_

[_Eclips3_]

13 minutes ago, kuciol said:

Same smug attitude, same resistance to common logic, same dismisal of arguments just because they dont line up with your wrong point of view. You are not fooling anyone

I honestly have no idea what you're talking about...

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

Well, there is a fair bit to address in these kinds of conservations. 

One aspect and yes this is going to sound condescending, but to clarify, its not my personal position, but a position that is often worth considering when it comes to making money from people, is do you listen to the customer, or do you listen to the data, numbers and customer behaviours?  Like I am going to oversimplify a lot of different business, sales, and advertising ideas, but we also do have to apply a bit of context. For example, I am a bit older, so for a long time, video games to myself, were one off payments, to purchase, or alternatively you could rent or hire them. When video games started to change, and paid DLC started to happen... I was, and can still be a bit critical. My position has softened, but depends on the context. Mass Effect DLC's, Dragon Age DLC's, Dark Souls DLC's, a few other franchises, I felt the value warranted the price, and contextually were fine, as in, extra content, the team may have been working on near or post launch, that wasn't necessarily omitted from the game for nefarious or greed based reasons. There is still a small part of me, that thinks ideally, you buy a game once, and all that extra should be included, but eh, relatively speaking... I think there are good examples, and bad examples. 

Thats for a bit of context because I was even more suspicious and critical of free to play models. Usually by definition, these models, need to engage in more predatory, and manipulative tactics, which usually and often require a game be builtin the foundations of the game. First time I played Warframe, I bounced off it. Wasn't until a friend during pandemic talked about it, and I did some research, that I softened my stance. So I generally personally think that DE, is a lot better than many game devs, other games. 

Okay so now all the things in OP. Well, as far as a community, its not that simple. For some people its just apathy, or they don't care or they just sincerely don't mind. For example, I am not a fan nor would I advocate for timers, but the early game gave me, personally enough to do, that I wasn't directed bothered or frustrated with such timers. Like for me personally? Knowing the game had a Free to Play model, I knew what I was getting into (well, the second time after doing more extensive research). I knew enough about the game, to know I would like the stuff that comes later after I spent some time with it. Does that mean I might be giving the game a free pass in a sense? Yeah kind of, because sometimes I look at something in Warframe, and think its really silly and goofy, but then I ask myself, would I prefer it removed, but instead i had to pay $40 a month? See personally, I have a lot of friends, that would rather Warframe just be a game you purchase once at $100... but in 2013, Warframe was not a game worth $100... Warframe is now, in 2024, but its gotten to where it is, off its model, which is relatively unique (as far as their specific journey and structure relative to other FTP games). Like Warframe is often talked about positively in this respect. I have seen so much recent discussion around a certain other game... and people telling other people "Warframe does this better" as far as monetisation models. 

Timers, standing caps, etc could they be argued to be archaic, predatory, etc I think a little yeah, but.. and this is where internal data gets important, if DE has good evidence to show such systems tend to retain more players than otherwise... It would definitely lose people too, and frustrate others, but as long as enough are either apathetic, neutral, don't mind, and or they are predisposed to going with such systems or even liking them (people who might like when the game encourages them to take a break, etc), then its probably feeding into some other positive feedback look as far as behaviour and retention. 

Like for a while i know that Daily Sortie was a very popular activity as far as how many players engaged in it. Why do you suppose that is? Well, potentially it might have been some light fomo, and the fact you can only do one a day. When they introduced say... Archon Hunts though, instead of once a day, it was once a week? Why? Well... thing is, such systems, often require fine tuning. Once a day Archon Hunts, may burn out players fast, bad for player, but ultimately bad for DE and Warframe. 

Some players know all this, are conscious of it, some may not, its... It can be complex. Goes back to whether the Customer is Always Right, and or The Customer is Not a Moron and or Buyers Beware. 

Also no one has absolute autonomy, and from what i know as far as studies on related topics, people who tend to be more aware of limitations of their own personal agency, tend to have more actual influence on it, and their autonomy, than those who overestimate. Which I bring up because I think its very relevant here. People should be well researched and knowledgable on games, in general, but especially FTP, Gatcha, micro transactions, battle passes, paid DLC, and. alittle skeptical, critical, and weary. Then really decide whether they want to engage with the game or not. If you feel like a game is doing something akin to a boss disrespecting your time, you probably shouldn't play it. If you don't mind or don't care because you don't think thats what happening, you just think its a type of model, that may be silly but work for the company, to make the sort of game they do, and you are fine with it, then you are fine with it. Its the sort of thing an individual should make a conscious decision about, instead of getting slowly manipulated into spending time and money on, and then getting too invested, they find it hard to stay healthy over. 

[CosoMalvadoNG]

hace 19 minutos, _Eclips3_ dijo:

Clearly these people had their own issues that had no relation to the game, it's not the companies fault people can't see that, nobody else should "suffer" (not really suffering but you get what I mean) because of an exception.

The reason I'm complaining about it is, similar to the video about "Why new players quit." I have 1 week off, I'm loosing 3 days to craft a warframe loosing 12 hours per weapon. I won't get any time to enjoy the weapons I've been waiting for after my 1 week holiday. Most of it will be grinding for the Weapon/WF before I have to drive my GF to the shops or work or a dentist appointment.

How do you know what kind of people play your game?  No company is going to fervently favor everyone you know they want money, if there are limits it is because there is a precedent to set that limit (data, number, etc).

In many of these cases, the government of those countries required the companies of those games to set fair use limits to avoid more similar cases. I understand that you feel the way you do, but I share the same vision of DE at least on this issue. 

If DE release the limits in the game, even if you are not a sick person who stupidly kills himself by staying awake for too many hours, maybe there are 10 people who are. If only one of those 10 people dies, it would harm the company's image and they would surely have to provide compensation and possibly put even more time limits with pressure from some congressman (I assure you there are several who hate games) that they would look for any excuse to do their thing.

Edited July 24 by CosoMalvadoNG

[Quest]

1 hour ago, _Eclips3_ said:

Yeah I figured that out

So what was the point of the thread? You figured it out.

The defense of crafting timers and standing caps as player "wellbeing" is a lie and people going with it have been tricked into it.