Warframe is a game held back by how easy it is

[MrInubis]

And you still avoid answering questions asked multiple times.

[4thBro]

8 minutes ago, kuciol said:

And you still avoid answering questions asked multiple times.

 

9 hours ago, 4thBro said:

I don't know what "problems" you're referring to that you want me to address. So, please, go ahead and tell me some. I'll respond directly.

 

You're actually trolling. I'm not sure if it's reportable, but you're actually trolling.

 

I've asked you what your questions were, and you've been ignoring it for 9 hours while simultaneously telling me that I'm not answering them.

Edited August 6 by 4thBro

[MrInubis]

Dude not only i asked you... How do you balance that imaginary mode of yours given the diversity of loadouts we can have? What even is that challenge you ask, because as seen above everything can be trivialized? Why should DE waste dev time on something that is by deffinition not for most players? What would be the incentive to engage in that mode so it wont feel mandatory?

 

You were asked this many times but you pretend like those questions didnt exist. So who is trolling here?

Edited August 6 by kuciol

[4thBro]

Before I go to bed... I'm going to spell something out for you.

 

I'm sitting here watching Youtubes, while refreshing the WF forums. Want to know why?

Because there's nothing to do in WF.

 

Yes, I could go play other games. But from DE's perspective, that's the same as me doing nothing. For them, I'm either playing WF, or not playing WF.

 

While I'm playing Warframe, I might be inclined to purchase platinum to speed up my process of attaining new stuff to try out.

While NOT playing Warframe, I have absolutely no reason to purchase anything.

It's a very simple concept.

 

I currently have... let's see...

Mirage, Frost, Mesa, Volt, Ember, and two Nezha loadouts fully able to handle max level enemies at high clear speeds. And they were designed to have entirely different flavors. I even have an internal lore in my head with them, because that made it more fun for me. Let me share:

 

Also, missing from this:

Inaros, as "The Supreme Overlord,," back when I played content that made him my go-to if my other loadouts couldn't prevail, back when I was in an overall weaker state of loadouts.

 

So the internal lore was a sort of dark-grim setting. The Supreme Overlord ruled over the galaxy, and he had various other forces that... enforced his will. (I also had a Banshee loadout, but I've since given up on that Frame, lol.)

The Stars are a sort of... mystical entity, actual stars that held bizarre attributes. (Nova was also the Dark Star, and had dark purple colorings, but I don't currently have a Nova loadout that I enjoy playing.)

 

So, the Golden Star loadout uses a lot of gold colorings, and the idea of it is destruction. I use the 4 augment and spread gigantic bleed procs to everything on screen.

 

The Frozen Star loadout uses a light blue coloring, and replaces the 4 with Gloom at 95% slow, giving the implication that the power of the Frozen Star is freezing everything in its vicinity.

 

The Red Star uses Magistar slam, also... representing destruction, so kind of an overlap there, but oh well. Even though there's anti-synergy because of the "intended bug" of enemies that got ragdolled by Ember's abilities ending up immune to slam attacks, I still have fun with it, and it's still flavorful for me because I make it rain meteors, and then I myself become one of those meteors, slamming everything around me for 50m damage. Lots of fun.

The Star-Bandit is becoming one of my favorites.

The concept is that this is a rogue type of character within the lore, whom steals some of the power of the Stars for themselves. The blue-celled shoulderpad represents the defensive nature of the Frozen Star, while the gold-burned trim of the cloak (as well as the unseen chest markings due to the screenshot) represent the Golden Star's offensive capability. And the red-orange firestep ephemera represents the Red Star, as well as the red-orange colored Grimoire that I use with Ballistic Battery on bosses that can't be 4'd. All three Stars are represented both visually and in practice with this build, and I love it.

 

The Old King represents the fact that Frost used to be my main Frame when I first started playing, and slowly left my favor as I played harder content and different Frames. In the lore, he was the ruler before Inaros.

I then eventually came back to a place of favoring Frost, and this was before his multiple buffs (Overguard and Biting Frost). After those said buffs, I could easily consider him the Current King, too, lol.

 

The Blue Death is also a rogue character, unaffiliated with whomever the current ruler is. Volt is easily my strongest setup, running Rakta and is practically immortal, along with having, most likely, the highest DPS, and undoubtedly unmatched movement. He's my "get it done" loadout, or my "flex on 'em" loadout.

 

(Note: Framebabe has absolutely no lore, lmfao. Mirage is just the hottest Frame. So she's Framebabe.)

 

... ... ... My point in sharing this with you, aside from sharing the fun little mini-lore that makes me enjoy the game a tiny bit more, is to try to explain to you... that I really don't have much to do in WF right now. I've browsed the Frames, and nothing really strikes at me as compelling to add to my collection. I have *plenty* of loadouts that are max-level capable. (Everyone with a favorite-star is endgame capable, except maybe "weewoo" LMAO... I kinda hate Titania nowadays, TBH.)

 

What I NEED is a reason to play. I don't need 10 or 20 more endgame-capable loadouts. I need something to actually test my current ones. I need something to make me WANT to work on more stuff.

What I'm trying to say is that I'm READY AND WILLING to spend more money on this game, but I don't currently have a reason to. I'm over-prepared for what the game currently has for me, and I don't even have much, if we're being honest!

Edited August 6 by 4thBro

[4thBro]

22 minutes ago, kuciol said:

Dude not only i asked you... How do you balance that imaginary mode of yours given the diversity of loadouts we can have? What even is that challenge you ask, because as seen above everything can be trivialized? Why should DE waste dev time on something that is by deffinition not for most players? What would be the incentive to engage in that mode so it wont feel mandatory?

 

You were asked this many times but you pretend like those questions didnt exist. So who is trolling here?

Did you read my Greater Rift thread? I'm going to respond to this post assuming that you did.

 

Let me start by saying: Keep in mind, I'm typing in my free time right now, I'm drunk atm, and I have work tomorrow. This is to compare it to someone else, say a DE developer, that would be getting paid to think about this and lay it out more thoroughly.

 

What I imagine would be... (and I think I talk about this somewhere in that thread, which is fine if you didn't read the whole thread, although also it's only 1 page atm.)

Enemy levels don't actually cap at 10,000. What this would do would be, quite simply... at some point, ANY build will be overwhelmed. There comes a point where everything is a deathtouch, and when it comes to Health + Armor, most of the time level 10,000 enemies already do this, unless you have at least 3 different 90% reductions going on. (Which is why Shield Gating is dominant in almost every scenario, IF not every scenario.) But Shield Gating requires energy anyway, which in itself is a window for downfall.

No build is completely impervious to the concept of infinity. All that needs to be done is to tweak the numbers (aka the scaling) so that even the single most insane build eventually falls within a reasonable time. What I mean here is that nobody wants to be in a mission for... let's say, over 2 hours?

And so, from here... you can have a very healthy and comfortable environment of various Frames trying to push their leaderboard score within a window that doesn't even pass 2 hours. A casual player could try 1 leaderboard attempt per day very comfortably and happily, and that's still super viable to be able to push for rank 1.

 

And even any player that doesn't want to use their Frame's absolute #1 meta build? That's still fine. There is a strong appeal to playing non-meta and simply seeing how far you can push it.

"Wow, I pushed my Mirage build to 1 hour 35 minutes! That's extremely good, considering the top 20 Mirages are 1 hour 47 minutes."

 

I want you to actually think about this, and imagine a world where this exists. There can still exist MANY LAYERS of healthy competition, including solo, self-improvement and goal setting. I know this because I've played games that had this type of environment. Marvel Heroes is my closest personal example. It didn't matter if you weren't playing the BEST character, and had the BEST score. What mattered was that there was a way for you to stretch your muscles, see what you could accomplish with whatever build you wanted to play, and had a metric to compare it to other people, INCLUDING people that played top-scoring meta. That in ITSELF could easily serve as a source of satisfaction.

 

I really hope more people can imagine the Warframe that I can imagine. It would be so good... And it's basically all there, except for that last step.

[MrInubis]

So your idea of endgame is worse ESO with faster scaling, no balance and no incentive to play? You also display lack of understaning what some frames can do. Octavia can stay in there until you get bored. Invisibility + infinitely scaling dmg says hi. And you wonder why nobody wants that trash?

Edited August 6 by kuciol

[AzureTerra]

46 minutes ago, kuciol said:

So your idea of endgame is worse ESO 

I don't think I'm ever going to not read that as Elder Scrolls Online

[Zimzala]

7 hours ago, 4thBro said:

Before I go to bed... I'm going to spell something out for you.

I'm sitting here watching Youtubes, while refreshing the WF forums. Want to know why?

Because there's nothing to do in WF.

What I NEED is a reason to play. I don't need 10 or 20 more endgame-capable loadouts. I need something to actually test my current ones. I need something to make me WANT to work on more stuff.

What I'm trying to say is that I'm READY AND WILLING to spend more money on this game, but I don't currently have a reason to. I'm over-prepared for what the game currently has for me, and I don't even have much, if we're being honest!

Ah, so the truth is revealed!

You really just need a good divorce lawyer because you don't have the self-discipline to leave a relationship on your own that you don't like.

Got it.

[Monolake]

14 hours ago, 4thBro said:

Man, this is a whole other topic, as it frequently seems like the devs don't play their own game. I feel like it should be part of their job to play it. But there are so many little case-by-case issues that have been around for years, that I'm constantly thinking to myself... "Does nobody at DE play X frame or Y gun? Because these issues are extremely common, there's no way they wouldn't run into the problem and then fix it at work the next day."

Even small QOL things. Even something as small as... "Omg, I can't leave this menu even by hitting escape, until I've waited for this little loot reward message to go away! That's so annoying. I should fix that real quick."

There's just SO MANY things that make me say... "Nobody in that office is playing the game. They just program the next content patch, make sure it goes from start to finish without crashing, and then release it and begin work on the next thing."

They do now, its notable in last 2 years we've got more QoL and fixes than before, but it's a giant 10-year old mess so fixing it all is difficult long process and the same time as they need to constantly pump out updates to keep people playing, so its understandable they can only do so much. At the same time it feels like they are short on game designers.

[Kaiga]

9 hours ago, RichardKam said:

 

All the big TED talk and philosophical dissertation and yet we still do not have one (1) descriptive and tangible way of literally doing a challenge.

And then oh the SP 60 eyes boss fight is an excellent example of challenge! Look at that! So engaging!

Which can be done by the freaking octavia without firing once.

Or if you prefer some firepower.

Every "difficulty" or "challenge" thread is something like this.

I don't think Warframe needs any particular challenge. It is a looter shooter for mostly casual players => "NO! It can be more! It was held back by how easy it is! We want challenge!"

Well OK. But the current status of the game is too complex and powercrept that any meaningful challenge is not possible without arsenal restriction => "NO!!! It can definitely be done!! DE is just lazy and you refuse to listen to us!! Look at 60 eyes!"

Oh that's what you wanted? If that is the difficulty level you are looking for, then we already have Archon Boreal and Alchemy, maybe Void Cascade as well? Kela De Thaym is also nice, you know? All of them cannot be afk with AoE already. Parkour. Weak point mechanics. Avoid getting shot. Why are you complaining?

If you do not consider the above "challenging", and yet cannot define or explain what you are looking for, and keep complaining the lack of "challenge" in this game, then I do not know who is the contrarian here.

So, when we talk about a lack of challenging content, what exactly are we talking about? Seriously.

Remember what I said about you talking about difficulty yet not playing the game. 

If you did play any of this, then you'd probably know the 60 eyes boss is called the Fragmented One, and not the Fragmented Suzerain, which is what you linked a player with an eidolon volt/incarnon setup killing, you didn't even get the research right when making your point, because you have no idea what you're talking about.

The 60 eyes boss has different mechanics and obviously requires more than just dump down dps and buff stacking like that video shows.

You did however correctly link the Octavia cheese method which, I think speaks more to the nature of this one frame outscaling everything into oblivion, and it's very niche use in levelcap/endurance roles. Not really a great point when that frame is the final word in warframe by being so easy- difficulty may very well mean rebalancing frames and tools, and how they are meant to work in content that is meant to be difficult, which is something i did mention earlier with balance changes.

Try again.

Edited August 6 by Kaiga

[RichardKam]

55分钟前 , Kaiga 说:

Remember what I said about you talking about difficulty yet not playing the game. 

If you did play any of this, then you'd probably know the 60 eyes boss is called the Fragmented One, and not the Fragmented Suzerain, which is what you linked a player with an eidolon volt/incarnon setup killing, you didn't even get the research right when making your point, because you have no idea what you're talking about.

The 60 eyes boss has different mechanics and obviously requires more than just dump down dps and buff stacking like that video shows.

You did however correctly link the Octavia cheese method which, I think speaks more to the nature of this one frame outscaling everything into oblivion, and it's very niche use in levelcap/endurance roles. Not really a great point when that frame is the final word in warframe by being so easy- difficulty may very well mean rebalancing frames and tools, and how they are meant to work in content that is meant to be difficult, which is something i did mention earlier with balance changes.

Try again.

But the point listed by other Tenno still stands. How do you balance the power when you have Revenant and Octavia at one end of the spectrum and Oberon and Limbo and Trinity at the other? I am sure even without Octavia, the SP 60 eyes was not a benchmark of difficulty since a very long time ago.

Also my point still stands, which you conveniently avoid, and it has nothing to do with whether I play them or not. When we talk about "lack of challenge" like in this thread, If you are talking about weak point mechanics and parkour and "use your skill" and "no dumping dps and M1 spam", there are already tons of them in game. SP 60 eyes for one, which you obviously agree, and also void cascade which also requires operator loadout, maybe SP circuit Jackal as well? Archon Boreal and Nira. Alchemy. The list goes on. All of these fulfill your listed requirement.

So do you consider these "challenge" or not? If not, then what is still missing? More choreographic attack? More weird status? More randomness? More health and bullet sponge? Bigger boss? Epic music? What exactly are you looking for that the game cannot provide, or these stuff while objectively are challenging, you just personally don't like them?

Edit: also I would like to echo one of the Tenno in this thread. Difficulty is progressive. What is not challenging to you may be challenging to newer players who do not have everything in their arsenal. What is challenging to you today may not be as challenging next year because you will make progress. Disruption was a very challenging content when it was first released (I was there 3000 years ago), and some veterans still enjoy it today. So I would say progression and personal preference also play an important role on how we perceive things.

Edited August 6 by RichardKam

[4thBro]

6 hours ago, kuciol said:

So your idea of endgame is worse ESO with faster scaling, no balance and no incentive to play? You also display lack of understaning what some frames can do. Octavia can stay in there until you get bored. Invisibility + infinitely scaling dmg says hi. And you wonder why nobody wants that trash?

Again, you're more focused on "winning" the discussion than you are focused on posting honestly.

Literally anything can be implemented in this game mode. If invisibility is too broken for it, then there can be countermeasures. And those countermeasures can be anything at all.

I'm not sure what part about "developers can do anything they want" you're not understanding. There's NO LIMIT to what you're allowed to do. So all of your little snippets are irrelevant. Red herrings, more specifically. All of those things are just little details that can be worked on.

 

... But you know what... If this is all you have to say after everything I've posted, I think I'm done responding to you. You're clearly posting like this on purpose. Nothing but fallacies, and for what? To achieve the goal of senseless gatekeeping for a game mode that has nothing to do with you at all?

Absolutely crazy.

Absolutely crazy.

 

25 minutes ago, RichardKam said:

How do you balance the power--

By trying.

Not by sitting here saying, "WHY BOTHER, IT CAN'T BE DONE!"

 

To say this for the 30th time:

The devs can do ANYTHING. If you don't have the ability to use your imagination to find any single method of balancing a Frame, then that's on you. But don't think that it means it can't be done.

All they have to do... ... is anything at all, lmao.

30 minutes ago, RichardKam said:

So do you consider these "challenge" or not? If not, then what is still missing? More choreographic attack? More weird status? More randomness? More health and bullet sponge? Bigger boss? Epic music? What exactly are you looking for that the game cannot provide, or these stuff while objectively are challenging, you just personally don't like them?

This is a decent question, though. I think you've been asking it, but I've somewhat been answering it for myself:

For me, it at least starts with easy access to an infinite mission with max level enemies. It at least starts with what the game's current strongest stuff is. From there, we can see what else we need to do.

But sitting here talking about Steel Path or the Fragmented Idiot like they matter, or are some kinda benchmark, is just not the approach. I'd say, right now, the most easily accessed challenging enemies are from the Circuit, and you can simply decide to not grab any Decrees. The only issue here is that your loadout is randomized, because I guess someone asked for that, lmaoooo......

[Zimzala]

1 hour ago, 4thBro said:

For me, it at least starts with easy access to an infinite mission with max level enemies. It at least starts with what the game's current strongest stuff is. From there, we can see what else we need to do.

But sitting here talking about Steel Path or the Fragmented Idiot like they matter, or are some kinda benchmark, is just not the approach. I'd say, right now, the most easily accessed challenging enemies are from the Circuit, and you can simply decide to not grab any Decrees. The only issue here is that your loadout is randomized, because I guess someone asked for that, lmaoooo......

So you want a game mode that starts 'at the end'. Great.

Where does it go from there, exactly?

So let's say this imaginary mode starts at the end, the most powerful enemies in an infinite loop.

What benefit does this provide in general?

If they put 'appropriate loot' that players will demand for 'toiling away' at fighting enemies, then they just have to make another 'at the end mode'.

You seem to just want to ignore the very basic business reality of funding a mode that the vast majority will never use, only to have tryhards complain it does not give the right rewards, until it does, then it's 'too easy' all over again.

All your idea does is push the endless hamster wheel a fraction of an inch forward until it hits the same issue - that some people are just always bored with games of this nature because they master them easily.

The problem does not lie in the game, the problem lies with individuals who cannot comprehend that a video game of this type cannot, in fact, endlessly entertain a mind that can figure it out....everything will become boring.

So, the real problem is people trying to make game makers create endless challenges, when those people should go find the challenges they seek.

It is painfully obvious you have outgrown the game, but simply don't have the tools to understand that and find a new thing to challenge you.

I suggest the stock market.

Edited August 6 by Zimzala
words are hard

[MrInubis]

34 minutes ago, 4thBro said:

Again, you're more focused on "winning" the discussion than you are focused on posting honestly.

Literally anything can be implemented in this game mode. If invisibility is too broken for it, then there can be countermeasures. And those countermeasures can be anything at all.

I'm not sure what part about "developers can do anything they want" you're not understanding. There's NO LIMIT to what you're allowed to do. So all of your little snippets are irrelevant. Red herrings, more specifically. All of those things are just little details that can be worked on.

 

... But you know what... If this is all you have to say after everything I've posted, I think I'm done responding to you. You're clearly posting like this on purpose. Nothing but fallacies, and for what? To achieve the goal of senseless gatekeeping for a game mode that has nothing to do with you at all?

But than it contradicts your original point of bringing the best loadout, doesnt it? You dont like ESO because it restricts skill spam. You want worse ESO, thats literally what those "rifts" of yours are. ESO even has rankings! Crazy i know. And you know what? It ended up as exping field. Even possible great rewards didnt help. You cant comprahend that your idea is simply bad right?

Did you even consider why enemies have max levels in the first place? Because thats technical limitation of game engine.  You literally cant make them any stronger and we have dmg cap. Its not about gatekeeping, its about calling stupid ideas what they are. Also they game is about collecting, if you dont like that its not for you. Its never about getting the best things, its about geting all the things.

Edited August 6 by kuciol

[Monolake]

9 hours ago, RichardKam said:

 

All the big TED talk and philosophical dissertation and yet we still do not have one (1) descriptive and tangible way of literally doing a challenge.

And then oh the SP 60 eyes boss fight is an excellent example of challenge! Look at that! So engaging!

 

Extrapolate from the fundamentals Ive laid out and measure it against what we have in the game, or any game or sports (but really you dont have to understand it, its not your job.  DEs designers have to - its their job, we are just wasting our time here venting). You just don't make a sitting bullet sponge boss that can be killed with abilities. And you don't make eye-collection tedium part (the worst antifun bit about that mission which made everyone hate it). Action gameplay is about quick decision making, its that simple. The only thing they got right is that his attacks dispel so you actually have to evade - thats exactly one of the fundamentals of combat - evading the attacks, so they have to be damaging and threatening to make players react no matter your loadout, its all really simple and self-evident. But then DE is scared of some lazy players whining that its too hard 'oh no, we have to dodge'

Cascade is great mode, the best they've done in forever and its a prime example of how it can be engaging and challenging full of action and urgency  not just a gear check or a chore and it has the fastest scaling, its not wasting your time and the rewards and good too. So give DE credit here.
But now theyve added another boring waiting mode with this Jade elevator - despite all the players saying they dont like Mobile-def like modes where you just wait on a timer, yet they did exactly that with a little twist and you cant even fail it cause the core auto-repairs so there is no urgency no challenge and even jade eximus got nerfed cause some people couldn't move away, yawn.

[4thBro]

I'm literally just constantly repeating myself in here...

 

38 minutes ago, Zimzala said:

So you want a game mode that starts 'at the end'. Great.

Where does it go from there, exactly?

So let's say this imaginary mode starts at the end, the most powerful enemies in an infinite loop.

What benefit does this provide in general?

If they put 'appropriate loot' that players will demand for 'toiling away' at fighting enemies, then they just have to make another 'at the end mode

It starts at your end. But your end is my beginning.

 

Where do you go from there? Well like I've said 100 times: We can do ANYTHING. The only limits are your own imagination.

We can uncap enemy levels.

We can fight in problematic terrain.

We can limit energy income to X degree.

We can balance things such as by limiting invisibility in some way, for that particular example.

 

The goal is to push your limits further and further. Answer me this: Have you played Greater Rifts?

I'm not asking if you've seen a YouTube or a Twitch. I'm asking if you've played them yourself, and pushed your own goals in them.

If nothing else, answer this question, please.

 

As for benefit??? Loot??? I thought I've addressed this.

No loot. No benefit. People that want this don't want those things from it. YOU might want these things. But that doesn't mean everyone else does. I ALREADY have no problem entering a mission, killing stuff for 10 minutes, and then extracting and getting absolutely useless stuff that I already have literally millions of. So I'm ALREADY proving the point that not everyone does everything for rewards.

 

41 minutes ago, Monolake said:

Cascade is great mode, the best they've done in forever and its a prime example of how it can be engaging and challenging full of action and urgency  not just a gear check or a chore and it has the fastest scaling, its not wasting your time and the rewards and good too.

I would like this game mode if not for the obnoxious fact that some buffs make your Frame vulnerable while you're in Operator. I've had a whole thread on this a while ago. Lots of people defended it, saying it was to stop "afk builds," but I find that whole argument incredibly disconnected.

[Zimzala]

2 hours ago, 4thBro said:

Where do you go from there? Well like I've said 100 times: We can do ANYTHING. The only limits are your own imagination.

We can uncap enemy levels.

We can fight in problematic terrain.

We can limit energy income to X degree.

We can balance things such as by limiting invisibility in some way, for that particular example.

As for benefit??? Loot??? I thought I've addressed this.

No loot. No benefit. People that want this don't want those things from it. YOU might want these things. But that doesn't mean everyone else does. I ALREADY have no problem entering a mission, killing stuff for 10 minutes, and then extracting and getting absolutely useless stuff that I already have literally millions of. So I'm ALREADY proving the point that not everyone does everything for rewards.

I would like this game mode if not for the obnoxious fact that some buffs make your Frame vulnerable while you're in Operator. I've had a whole thread on this a while ago. Lots of people defended it, saying it was to stop "afk builds," but I find that whole argument incredibly disconnected.

An idea without a plan is just a dream. You propose this thing, yet eschew any effort to actually plan it beyond "it will be cool", so it just shows how much of a dream it is, not a real plan, that no one here could implement anyway, you need to write up a design document with use cases and present that to DE.

I am not the person that will ask for rewards. This has already been proven with SP and just about every other hard mode ever added to any game. You are dreaming if you think players will not ask for more powerful rewards from fighting powerful enemies and get bent if they don't get them. Seriously, of you don't think this will happen, you are dreaming or delusional or just plain putting your fingers in your ears.

You also choose to completely ignore the simple fact that game engines do, in fact have limitations. You ignore the simple fact that some of us can dream things technology cannot implement. You ignore the development effort to monetary ROI, in a world where every single line of developer code must be shown to provide profit.

I get it. You really, really want WF to become challenging for you because you can dream a dream of it fulling a hole in your life.

I seriously am suggesting you look for this mythical challenge for your life outside of WF.

PS: Since you begged. No I have not played Greater Rifts, never really even heard of it. I am not a try-hard. I play games to relax, not to train or punish my hand-eye-coordination. I have nothing to prove to myself or anyone about that part of my physiology. I play to be entertained and to get out of my head about the things I deal with in real life. Nothing more. Games are just entertainment to me. Killing pixels and flipping flags in databases is fun, but I don't look to these things as challenges, I have plenty of real life for that. I have like four proposals to get out this week, and if we win even one I will be happy. Real Life provides Real Challenges.

Edited August 6 by Zimzala
PS

[MrInubis]

1 hour ago, 4thBro said:

The goal is to push your limits further and further. Answer me this: Have you played Greater Rifts?

I did, the most boring crap ever. The same thing just with bigger numbers, no goal, no real rewards just plain boring grind for nothing.

[Tsukinoki]

1 hour ago, 4thBro said:

It starts at your end. But your end is my beginning.

 

Where do you go from there? Well like I've said 100 times: We can do ANYTHING. The only limits are your own imagination.

We can uncap enemy levels.

We can fight in problematic terrain.

We can limit energy income to X degree.

We can balance things such as by limiting invisibility in some way, for that particular example.

 

The goal is to push your limits further and further.

So basically what you want is:

-ESO that starts at near the current level cap
-To uncap the levels, and have this somehow not break enemy stats like it used to in the past so that we don't get absurd things like 1hp enemies at extreme levels (number wrap around is very real and this will hard limit the enemy stats at some point regardless of what you imagine a computer can do)
-To be encouraged to bring the absolute best of the best gear and not limit your arsenal at all.....and at the same time somehow limit said "best of the best gear" so that you can't do absurd things and break the challenge so that it provides zero challenge at all (For example Invisibility, or Revenant, or just shield gate abuse, or any number of other abuses that would be possible depending on failure conditions/the lack thereof)

And all of this with zero actual idea of how this would be implemented, or how it would look, or anything besides a "Hey, this would be really cool!  I have no idea how it would actually be achieved but it would be really cool!  Just use your imagination guys and I don't have to spend any effort figuring this stuff out!"

1 hour ago, 4thBro said:

Answer me this: Have you played Greater Rifts?

I have, and they tend to get rather boring rather quickly.
After all you get to a certain point and eventually go "Now what?" because it just becomes a mindless click fest with nothing to do.

Which describes warframe as it is right now for the most part.

The biggest difference between them is one is accessible to a large number of players, and the other is a small elite niche activity that would be generous to say that 5% of the community spends any time in at all (and in a lot of games with "greater rifts" type gameplay the players that actually do said rifts number less than 1% of the playerbase).

Beyond that you're missing a very important thing that greater rifts tend to have: Rewards!

Sure, you might be fine with no rewards, but you are in the smallest of possible minorities when it comes to saying "Yeah, do this with zero rewards or reason to do it....."

1 hour ago, 4thBro said:

People that want this don't want those things from it.

Except even in your example of greater rifts from other games they have rewards!

Please point to me a game with greater rifts that are played by a consistent number of players that offer nothing at all to the players in any way, shape, or form.
No rewards, no nothing.  Because that is what you are seriously asking for.

If you point to games with greater rifts that provide various rewards, then please explain how this would be the one that wouldn't need any rewards?

Edited August 6 by Tsukinoki

[Atomic_Noodles]

Lots of beef in here.. if you want it harder you can always just equip all the Dragon Keys and play the game with weaker versions of the weapons/mods you use.

[Tsukinoki]

15 minutes ago, Atomic_Noodles said:

Lots of beef in here.. if you want it harder you can always just equip all the Dragon Keys and play the game with weaker versions of the weapons/mods you use.

I find that to be a fruitless arguing point against the people who want warframe to have some uber-hardcore-elite-difficult mode that less than 1% of 1% of the playerbase would ever touch.

They don't want to do any form of self-imposed challenge and instead want the challenge/difficulty mandated by the game designers....for some ill-defined reason.

They want the challenge to be 100% optional and have no impact or rewards for the rest of the game, and refuse any and all forms of self imposed challenges or limitations.
Hek they can't even articulate if they want the game designers to put limitations on what they can bring/use in their hypothetical mode, with one person here arguing in one post that they want to bring the absolute "best of the best gear without limitations" (such as ESO limiting ability use) into the mode, and then the same person argued in other posts "The developers can put all these limitations on the gear and frames...."

Edited August 6 by Tsukinoki

[Zimzala]

9 minutes ago, Tsukinoki said:

I find that to be a fruitless arguing point against the people who want warframe to have some uber-hardcore-elite-difficult mode that less than 1% of 1% of the playerbase would ever touch.

They don't want to do any form of self-imposed challenge and instead want the challenge/difficulty mandated by the game designers....for some ill-defined reason.

They want the challenge to be 100% optional and have no impact or rewards for the rest of the game, and refuse any and all forms of self imposed challenges or limitations.
Hek they can't even articulate if they want the game designers to put limitations on what they can bring/use in their hypothetical mode, with one person here arguing in one post that they want to bring the absolute "best of the best gear without limitations" (such as ESO limiting ability use) into the mode, and then the same person argued in other posts "The developers can put all these limitations on the gear and frames...."

That is, without a doubt, the best summation of this decades old issue.

If I could upvote it more times, I would do so.

They want what they want it, emotionally, viscerally, logic be damned, reality be damned, they want it, so the game maker is under some obligation to make it.

Seen this attitude for decades. I typically attribute it to people that don't understand the gaming software development world and how it actually works.

[Tsukinoki]

17 minutes ago, Zimzala said:

I typically attribute it to people that don't understand the gaming software development world and how it actually works.

As do I.
Especially when they bring up things such as "Just uncap the enemy levels...." without attempting to understand why the levels are capped (which in warframe is because of how big the numbers can get).
They don't understand that computers can't handle arbitrarily large numbers and instead use defined sizes for numbers and if you exceed the size of the number you're using it can cause "unexpected behavior" that can cause all sorts of weirdness.

Such as high level grineer with 1HP because the formula that took their level and base stats and such cause a number overflow and it rolled into negative values and therefore was set to the minimum of 1.  Sure, eventually it would wrap around so much that it brought it back up to normal values...but it was funny to have a spot in enemy levels where enemies were suddenly super weak and it took a long while to get back to being tough.

I mean this can still sometimes be seen in the game if you stack buffs just the right way and hit the right enemy (mostly only seen in the simalcrum but I have seen instances in normal missions) you can get negative damage to display onscreen.

Caps exist for a reason, and some of those reasons are technical.  You can't just remove the caps and call it a day.  Sometimes removing the caps cause roll-over weirdness.  Sometimes removing the caps can cause the game to crash (such as the glitch when hackable moa-cabinets were added into the game and you could spawn infinite moas).

 

And all that is beside the business side of things, where you have to have a reason to add something in, because otherwise you're just wasting man-hours and money putting in something that is under-utilized.
If only 1% of the playerbase is going to interact with something is it worth adding it in?  Or should you just leave it out and focus on the 99% of the playerbase?  Which one has a higher ROI?  Which one is going to drive people to the game? etc.

[4thBro]

1 hour ago, kuciol said:

I did, the most boring crap ever. The same thing just with bigger numbers, no goal, no real rewards just plain boring grind for nothing

At least now we're getting somewhere.

 

Ok. So YOU didn't like it. But guess what?

Greater Rifts single handedly kept that game alive. For most people, they were THE REASON to play D3.

What else was there to do? *Collect* a full set of completed gear and then tell yourself you beat the game? Come on now. There's a reason GRifts were a successful endgame.

 

1 hour ago, Tsukinoki said:

To be encouraged to bring the absolute best of the best gear and not limit your arsenal at all.....and at the same time somehow limit said "best of the best gear" so that you can't do absurd things and break the challenge so that it provides zero challenge at all (For example Invisibility, or Revenant, or just shield gate abuse, or any number of other abuses that would be possible depending on failure conditions/the lack thereof

Strawman fallacy. I didn't say nor imply these things, nor are they the only logical conclusion based on what I have said.

Yes, push yourself, see what works best, etc. But also, you can push your favorite loadouts just to see how far those can go, too. You don't have to always be competing for the top spot. Sometimes you can just compete with yourself or your friends, and see how far your suboptimal build can go, and be happy with that, too. (And, again... if this is a foreign concept to you, then the game mode isn't for you. There are plenty of people that aren't like you.)

Also yes. If something totally breaks the game, like stealth, then we do something about it. Maybe add detectors that need to be prioritized to kill. Maybe inflict a cooldown. We can do whatever we want. But no part of that implies contradiction. No part of that implies nerfing everything into the ground.

That's how you're strawmanning. Nothing implies these things. But they sure are easy to disagree with and argue against, aren't they?

 

1 hour ago, Tsukinoki said:

And all of this with zero actual idea of how this would be implemented, or how it would look, or anything besides a "Hey, this would be really cool!  I have no idea how it would actually be achieved but it would be really cool!  Just use your imagination guys and I don't have to spend any effort figuring this stuff out!

More strawman.

Not having 100% of it planned isn't the same as having 0% of it planned. Again, you're leaning on this weird and false belief that, because I don't have a 50 page essay and the game coding prepared on a USB drive, I have no valid idea.

It's just fallacy after fallacy. It's exhausting.

 

1 hour ago, Tsukinoki said:

Except even in your example of greater rifts from other games they have rewards

GRifts had rewards, but this is another fallacy: Red herring. It's an irrelevant thing to bring up.

For one reason, what did those rewards do? Help you push more GRifts.

For another reason, WF doesn't need them to have rewards, because we already get all of our stuff elsewhere. We're coming here to TEST our rewards that we got elsewhere, while D3's GRifts actually did have exclusive rewards. It's a false comparison, especially considering one of these things doesn't actually exist. (Which kind of wraps things back to strawman arguments.)

 

1 hour ago, Tsukinoki said:

Please point to me a game with greater rifts that are played by a consistent number of players that offer nothing at all to the players in any way, shape, or form.
No rewards, no nothing.  Because that is what you are seriously asking for

Ummm, pretty much any roguelike(lite?).

Their whole design is to just start a new push and get as far as you can.

Some will have rewards, namely UNLOCKING things. But in those cases, you quickly unlock everything, and all that's left is pushing your runs as far as you can.

 

You know what? A much better example: Hades.

You increase Heat, see how far you can go. The only reward for completion is the achievement of completion. And that was a very popular game, and the Heat endgame was a very popular endgame.

 

52 minutes ago, Tsukinoki said:

They don't want to do any form of self-imposed challenge and instead want the challenge/difficulty mandated by the game designers....for some ill-defined reason

This is false. I would honestly be okay with Circuit, if it wasn't for the random loadout part.

Well, that and the fact that Defense and Excavation are grief missions.

[4thBro]

46 minutes ago, Zimzala said:

If I could upvote it more times, I would do so.

This sure says a lot.

 

Of course you would! You've been treating this whole thing like a battle that you need to win. You haven't been trying to understand what people want, or assume the best intentions.

No.

You've been arguing disingenuously. You've been trying to WIN. You've been abusing fallacies. You've been trying to put people down, simply for wanting something in the game that wouldn't interfere with you.

 

You've been trying to use Likes as if they were an indicator of how right or wrong someone is. So of COURSE you would Like his post more than once!

Your whole stance has been that your vote is more important than others. Your whole belief is that, because YOU don't want something, it doesn't matter who does. So of COURSE you would have the sense of self-importance enough to Like his post more than once!

 

You really said it all, right there, without meaning to.