What Everyone Actually Means When They Say 'token System'?

[Luminati07]

no to tokens just let it go already...

Please elaborate.

[Brontolith]

DE could just keep their RNG and add a token system on top of it so even if your luck is complete crap you can still progress towards an item you've been farming for. Just an example using some of OPs stuff, make it so all the items still drop and are worth differing amounts of "orokin salvage"(damage or normal) based on rarity.

Heck people love Darvo so much why not have him run the salvage trading and hey DE can itch their RNG fetish by making his prices change every few hours/days and have all of them based on RNG on how high or low they can get with caps on each side of course

People who have great luck will still get everything they want in 3 runs or less while lessening the grind for those who dont have such luck. It makes it so people with crap luck can see that they are actually progressing to their goals.

[shut]

Just a footnote here, they should add a secondary objectives which would yield extra tokens,

something like raise alarm when entering certain room, or complete the objective under XY amount of time etc...

Been wanting this for ages in regular missions, like when Lotus tells you that you randomly have to rescue a hostage after you rescue a hostage. I don't mind if the extra chore isn't optional, but you should definitely be receiving better rewards for your work.

Edited January 7, 2014 by SortaRandom

[matto]

The problem is more about "lore".

 

Buying prime items in the market doesn't make any sense. The reason why we are going in those ships is to find prime gears, supposed to be the best gear in the Warframe Universe as manufactured by the almighty Orokins.

 

That's why we find parts, BP, etc. Because we are like raiders, trying to find the remains of this old civilization.

 

Who would sell those items in the market? Lotus? Darvo? Us? If doing raids in the Void gives you a token, where did they find those prime gear? How did they build them?

 

This is the reason why this idea of token system doesn't fit with Warframe. RNG is not the issue itself, it is more about how many parts you can find in one mission, how many items, etc.

 

Maybe if prime items were just blueprints... And if it requires special materials that you can only find in the Void... Orokin metal or something...

 

Get the bluprint as a reward for a mission, farm the materials -> craft your item.

 

But we don't have enough prime items to make a so simple system yet, and we have too much items and can't stay like that. That's what Derelict should be used for, that's why they should cleanse the reward tables until we finally get enough items to launch a simpler system.

[Luminati07]

DE could just keep their RNG and add a token system on top of it so even if your luck is complete crap you can still progress towards an item you've been farming for.

That's exactly what I said in my OP. :)

[TenkoTenko]

No we can't have this. It would be fun.

[matto]

Here an example of what I was saying earlier :

 

Well a simple example :

 

T1 capture = let's say Sicarus Blueprint or Bronco Blueprint or Forma

One raid = 100 Orokin plates.

Sicarus and Bronco require 1 blueprint + 300 Orokin plates.

 

T2 capture = Orthos or Glaive or Forma

One raid = 100 plates.

Orthos and Gaive require 1 blueprint + 400 plates.

 

T3 capture = Ember Prime or Paris prime or Forma

One raid = 100 plates.

Ember and Paris require 1 blueprint + 500 plates

 

Just a thought.

Edited January 7, 2014 by matto

[Ganpot]

While your token system is perfectly acceptable, I personally had something a little different in mind. 

 

As in your system, there would be different types of tokens.  These would be differentiated by mission type, not tier.  For now, let's just say that mobile defense gives red tokens, defense gives purple, exterminate gives yellow, survival gives blue, and capture gives green.  This creates an incentive to complete all types of missions, not just the most efficient. 

 

The number of tickets is determined both by RNG and the mission tier.  Each tier has a default number of tickets which it rewards (with the exception of Survival and Defense, which use default numbers for each 5 minute interval and 5 waves respectively).  For example, the default number of tickets for tier 1 might be 6 (the default numbers for Survival and Defense will always be lower than other mission types).  RNG then decides how many tickets players actually receive, with a range between 50-150% of the default number. 

 

This preserves the RNG aspect which the developers seem to love, while still allowing players to make somewhat predictable and long-term progress towards their goals. 

 

I believe I'm in the majority when I say I don't care all that much which type of ticket system is chosen.  There have been a lot of good, different suggestions from the community.  All that really matters is that players don't have to depend 100% on RNG. 

[Luminati07]

While your token system is perfectly acceptable, I personally had something a little different in mind. 

 

As in your system, there would be different types of tokens.  These would be differentiated by mission type, not tier.  For now, let's just say that mobile defense gives red tokens, defense gives purple, exterminate gives yellow, survival gives blue, and capture gives green.  This creates an incentive to complete all types of missions, not just the most efficient. 

 

The number of tickets is determined both by RNG and the mission tier.  Each tier has a default number of tickets which it rewards (with the exception of Survival and Defense, which use default numbers for each 5 minute interval and 5 waves respectively).  For example, the default number of tickets for tier 1 might be 6 (the default numbers for Survival and Defense will always be lower than other mission types).  RNG then decides how many tickets players actually receive, with a range between 50-150% of the default number. 

 

This preserves the RNG aspect which the developers seem to love, while still allowing players to make somewhat predictable and long-term progress towards their goals. 

 

I believe I'm in the majority when I say I don't care all that much which type of ticket system is chosen.  There have been a lot of good, different suggestions from the community.  All that really matters is that players don't have to depend 100% on RNG. 

I did consider having a particular type of token for each mission type, but I ended up scrapping it.

 

It just seemed like having 6/7 (or whatever the amount is) various types of token would just be messy and overcomplicated.

So, I opted for the simpler version with 2 types of tokens.

 

But yeah, I don't care what type of system is used. Any kind of token system is better than the constant uphill battle against RNG

[(PSN)Lord_Gremlin]

The problem is more about "lore".

 

Buying prime items in the market doesn't make any sense. The reason why we are going in those ships is to find prime gears, supposed to be the best gear in the Warframe Universe as manufactured by the almighty Orokins.

 

That's why we find parts, BP, etc. Because we are like raiders, trying to find the remains of this old civilization.

 

Who would sell those items in the market? Lotus? Darvo? Us? If doing raids in the Void gives you a token, where did they find those prime gear? How did they build them?

 

This is the reason why this idea of token system doesn't fit with Warframe. RNG is not the issue itself, it is more about how many parts you can find in one mission, how many items, etc.

 

Maybe if prime items were just blueprints... And if it requires special materials that you can only find in the Void... Orokin metal or something...

 

Get the bluprint as a reward for a mission, farm the materials -> craft your item.

 

But we don't have enough prime items to make a so simple system yet, and we have too much items and can't stay like that. That's what Derelict should be used for, that's why they should cleanse the reward tables until we finally get enough items to launch a simpler system.

Hm, maybe Orokin ARE selling them. I mean, where do you think Darvo gets his stuff, the sneaky bastard. The orokin are still alive somewhere and one day they will come  and take over Phobos.

And you won't be able to touch Phobos ever again because it will all be lvl 90 difficulty.

[(PSN)z3rodin36]

maybe they could just you know change to bp's only as end mission rewards and void could have special void exclusive foundry drops as the resource requirements just a thought. they could also make certain things more common/rare to accomodate but **** I'm sick of getting so much alloyplate that I can't use. the foundry items drop form enemies in void exclsively so you have to do void still to make them but don't have to spend so much keys only to get a part for something you already have.

Edited January 7, 2014 by (PS4)z3rodin36

[matto]

Here an example of what I was saying earlier :

 

Well a simple example :

 

T1 capture = let's say Sicarus Blueprint or Bronco Blueprint or Forma

One raid = 100 Orokin plates.

Sicarus and Bronco require 1 blueprint + 300 Orokin plates.

 

T2 capture = Orthos or Glaive or Forma

One raid = 100 plates.

Orthos and Gaive require 1 blueprint + 400 plates.

 

T3 capture = Ember Prime or Paris prime or Forma

One raid = 100 plates.

Ember and Paris require 1 blueprint + 500 plates

 

Just a thought.

 

Or same thing with plates being different according to mission tier.

 

T1 -> "copper kind of" Orokin plates

T2 -> "silver" Orokin plates

T3 -> "gold" Orokin plates

 

So for example Ember and Paris will require gold plates.

 

Only problem in this sytem, you can farm plates in whatever mission you want. Once you got your BP, you can farm gold plates in T3 cap or T3 defense. Farming requires to be fast, so people will run capture missions and no defense.

 

Same goes with the token system.

Edited January 7, 2014 by matto

[NevanChambers]

Two things.

The token system if implemented for prime stuff wouldn't affect the spending of platinum as you can't spend platinum to get them anyway. What else would you impliment tokens for anyway.

The second is I got almost all the prime weapons in a few days by lurking on the recruiting tab so that's doable now. Yeah I got lucky and all but it's still possible.

[Brasten]

Or same thing with plates being different according to mission tier.

 

T1 -> "copper kind of" Orokin plates

T2 -> "silver" Orokin plates

T3 -> "gold" Orokin plates

 

So for example Ember and Paris will require gold plates.

 

Only problem in this sytem, you can farm plates in whatever mission you want. Once you got your BP, you can farm gold plates in T3 cap or T3 defense. Farming requires to be fast, so people will run capture missions and no defense.

 

Same goes with the token system.

That isn't as much of a problem as you think. Looking at it numerically. Lets assume DE is doing good statistics and sets something like the Paris Prime String at 100 missions as the norm to acquire (by god I hope they are doing that kind of math an not just picking numbers out either butts). This then gives you a set for deviations to work from in setting what is the Maximium number of runs a player should ever have to do. Even if it works out to 300 missions.

Running 100 defense mission or 300 capture missions should be fictionally the same. For people who want to grind it hard core fast they will, same ways they find to make Defense Missions brutally efficient.

However if you just do Capture Missions you miss out on your chance of actually getting what your after sooner if you ran the Defense Missions. Some players will go play the Slotmachine and hope they get it faster.

Be it in a Token or Crafting system, you end up with the same deal. If you think you are lucky hit up the Mission type that drops it. If you are a cinical fellow you find the quest way to your goal. If you are just playing for fun and for the game play itself, you don't care as you know one way or another you'll get to your destination.

[Rakosta_Kai]

It's a worthwhile idea.

There are more specialty items than there is specialty content to support the item's reliable acquisition.

 

The only reliable outcome with that current setup is player frustration.

 

As is stands DE wants every mission requiring a key to enter to matter. This idea or something like it would actually make every run worthwhile. Even if you didn't get the part you were seeking, you still got something you could eventually make use of.

[Brasten]

Two things.

The token system if implemented for prime stuff wouldn't affect the spending of platinum as you can't spend platinum to get them anyway. What else would you impliment tokens for anyway.

The second is I got almost all the prime weapons in a few days by lurking on the recruiting tab so that's doable now. Yeah I got lucky and all but it's still possible.

Actually yes you can. You can buy random pulls at the Slot Machine of Key Packs. Which is where folks are erroneously thinking DE will lose revenue.

The current sale of key packs are dependent on additive behavior that casinos use to feed Slotmachines. At best it is an ethically questionable business practice. It is also actually a limited revenue stream once people stop being addicted and give up.

A Token/Crafting system would stabilize the value of Key Packs and actually provided a Pay-for-Convince Platinum Price.

Here is the logic:

• Assume the averages time to acquire a Paris Prime String is 100 by RNG missions, the Token cost works of to 300 mission as the Maximium.

• Key Packs cost 75 Platinum for 5 Keys (missions)

• 5 Keys/Missions to 5 USD, a dollar a mission. (Worst Plat to USD ratio)

This means if a player just baught Key Packs and ran the missions those those randomly produced it would cost 300 dollars for the Paris Prime String.

Buyers can then choose how much of that 300 they wish to pay, all, some, or none. Some Buyer's may even still chose to gamble in the hopes they will get it sooner than even 100 mission (these are the people already habitually buying key packs, and the "lost" revenue people cite).

The only lost revenue to DE will are only those customers who would keep buying Key Packs past the 300 mission mark because they are addicted to the gambling and not tracking they've now spent 300+ dollars on nothing. If this segment of the player base is a seriously significant part of Warframes cash flow, DE should perhaps go into designing Slot Machines.

I content that more people would be willing to spend 25 dollars (at 75% Plat buy discount) for the 100 mission gamble than there will be income generated by addicted Key Pack buyers. (This value is actually wrong because Key Packs themselves are random and very likely won't produce the kind of mission distribution to acquire the desired part in 100 missions of the correct type.)

We know what people are willing to pay in some way toward Void Items (Prime Access). About 25 USD a full item.

Edited January 7, 2014 by Brasten

[Luminati07]

Two things.

The token system if implemented for prime stuff wouldn't affect the spending of platinum as you can't spend platinum to get them anyway. What else would you impliment tokens for anyway.

The second is I got almost all the prime weapons in a few days by lurking on the recruiting tab so that's doable now. Yeah I got lucky and all but it's still possible.

1) Yep. The only way I could possibly see it affecting plat purchases, is people getting tokens, getting Prime gear, then not buying any normal weapons. And, honestly, if people think that is going to affect platinum purchases, then they're grasping at straws to find a negative to token systems.

 

2) Yeah, that's one of the flaws in the game. Currently, it's just not fair to players. At all.

The game doesn't reward the effort you put in (token systems do). 

I've probably burned at least 40+ T3 Exterminate missions trying to get a Dakra Blade, while other players can get it in one or two goes.

 

I know people who have done 100+ runs for the part they need, and haven't got it.

That's a huge problem when it comes to keeping players interested. 

[Noogums]

+1, this sounds like a fair and fun system.It'd be nice to have SOME guarantee that I'll eventually get my stuff, even if I have to do ~80 runs.

 

Example: Just got Ember Prime's Systems, last part I needed, and I've been farming since the day she came out...

[Luminati07]

+1, this sounds like a fair and fun system.It'd be nice to have SOME guarantee that I'll eventually get my stuff, even if I have to do ~80 runs.

 

Example: Just got Ember Prime's Systems, last part I needed, and I've been farming since the day she came out...

Yeah, that's what is so good about token systems. They're actually fair (unlike almost every single mechanic in Warframe).

Last I heard, the reason DE doesn't want to add tokens is because they "don't want to add another currency".....

 

As for Ember Prime Systems, prime example of RNG not being fair to the player.

I've been farming for a Dakra Blade for a looooooong time. I've given up because I've burned so many T3 keys I just don't have it in me to roll the dice another 40+ times.

[fatpig84]

I don't think we need rarity for tokens.

Just pure numbers will do imo.

 

But either way it is fine.

[(PSN)k1ll1ng5pr33-NL]

Oh, yes please!

[GridBurn]

I don't see how your token system is any different to a currency based one. Basically you are suggesting to farm a currency of one type in order to buy a piece of gear right?

I think the type of token system that would be different and possibly effective is where you have a drop chance of a token which you can redeem for a specific piece of gear. So basically instead of getting a Braton Prime Barrel 10 times in a row you get Braton Prime parts tokens which you can redeem for the part you want. You can lower the drop chance of teh token to balance the difficulty of farming but then at least you don't get RNGeesus giving you a ton of the wrong part when all you need is that last part.

[Luminati07]

I don't see how your token system is any different to a currency based one. Basically you are suggesting to farm a currency of one type in order to buy a piece of gear right?

I think the type of token system that would be different and possibly effective is where you have a drop chance of a token which you can redeem for a specific piece of gear. So basically instead of getting a Braton Prime Barrel 10 times in a row you get Braton Prime parts tokens which you can redeem for the part you want. You can lower the drop chance of teh token to balance the difficulty of farming but then at least you don't get RNGeesus giving you a ton of the wrong part when all you need is that last part.

Definitely not. A drop chance of a token is nothing but more RNG.

 

What the token system encapsulates is a way for the RNG chance to stay, but make it fair for the player.

 

So, when you complete a mission (Let's say T3 Exterminate), you still have the random chance at getting Forma Blueprints or Dakra Blades. However, you also get tokens.

 

If you do 50+ runs without getting your Dakra Blade, you will have more than enough tokens to simply buy it. (because the RNG gods were not in a good mood)

 

Token systems are all about fairness to the player, something that is lost in Warframe.

[matto]

If you want to check my last thread about another way to implement something close to a token system :

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/160879-changing-the-prime-rewards-farmingcrafting-system/#entry1884813

 

No need to write a reply on my thread, we can talk about it here (it seems that lately token threads are underrated).

 

EDIT : I also have a thread about how to "fix" the Prime quest here https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/160490-about-fixing-voidderelict-reward-tables/ in the gameplay section, without changing the RNG system.

 

Seriously, the lack of answers is disturbing. People keep complaining about the Void and the rewards, and it's all dull, just complaints, no actual brainstorming or whatsoever. Not saying that my threads deserve some love or anything, but I don't even see people trying to think about it, making threads for the devs, etc.

 

Anyway.

Edited January 9, 2014 by matto

[Dornez]

I honestly hate Token systems. Good RNG, when coded right, is both rewarding and challenging.

 

A token system is nothing but grind and nothing but grind is boring.