Frost: 2/5/2014

[TalesNexus]

Hey everyone,

 

Making this post prior to U12 on PC's release (coming soon!), because as everything is coming together, there have been changes made to Frost's powers that ought to be shared and discussed for further review.

 

Changes:

Freeze (Codename Ice Blast internally): Comparable to Ember's Fireball in casting time and result of impact/damage.

Avalanche: Increased casting speed and increased damage.

Snowglobe: Now has health that is increased with fusion (currently: 1500,2500,3000,3500)

Snowglobe being a solely duration based skill created issues of viability of other frames in the "Defense" mission types, as well as a skew towards pace of gameplay.

 

The goal is to get Snowglobe, and Frost overall, in a place of power and action, but does not render gameplay optional, but we need everyone's experiences to get it right as we continue to make changes. 

 

Please discuss below your experiences with Frost and how you would balance his abilities with these changes in mind, as well as prepare to return to this thread after the Update has been deployed with further feedback.

 

Thanks, Tenno.

 

Clarification/FAQ 1: Will Strength Mods positively affect Snowglobes health after this change? Yes, they will!

The snowglobe does not need new format, I would prefer you just buff further to become more useful against high waves level of enemies instead. 

[WSkD]

Nice~ 

 

NOT

I play Frost a lot (at least his Prime version, which is the same anyway) and my only (real) skill is...

Snow Globe!

 

This is based on one simple reason: in higher level enemy health, armour, ... goes up but ability damage... stays as it is. 

Which means, that the damage-part of abilities becomes more or less useless and just the CC-part remains. That is no real problem, the problem is that Frost is also slow and even with his armour and extra health a level 25+ Miter-Blade-Bleed-Proc can kill him.

Now, what do you do? Abilities stun quite short (except maybe freeze, but you are not allowed to attack anymore (at least not more than there are shields)) and do no damage?

Right!

 

SNOW GLOBE

 

And now you hope to kill 'em all or rather you have a team, everyone can collect his senses in safety and you make another break-out till the enemy is dead (the enemey which is in direct vicinity/ the same room/ ..).

 

But with this changes... you are screwed.

Yes, you have a +4000-shield (with Focus) but honestly, Rhino with his ~1600-Iron Skin gets torn to shreds by some heavies if they exceed Level 25 or so in mere seconds (I also play Rhino, therefore I know this). 

 

With some quick math: ~1600-shield used up in ~4 seconds == +4000-shield used up in ~10 seconds

 

This is NOT good and in no way helpful. 

I agree on the point that Snow Globe, as it is, is not quite right, but to make it Iron-Skin-2.0 seems much more worse.

So, for another idea...

 

-make Snow Globe just give damage REDUCTION, so you are safe but not invincible (like 75-80%, but capped at 95% (e.g. achievable with Focus))

-decrease the amount of "slowing" inside the globe: like point one, it is still safe inside, but not too safe

 

 

For the other changes : I need testing bevor I can say something accurate.

But as a preview: I think they are fine, but I will still just use Avalanche + Snow Globe, because:

-I need the space for mods

-if Ice Blast is anywhere like Embers Fireball.. then it is a joke (in my opinion).

 

So far~

I have to admit that I ... am unhappy with lot of things as they are handled in the game (by DE), but I am looking forward to these changes in good spirit that they will be great and improve one of my favourite frames. 

 

El Psy Congeroo,

WSkD

[GhostWOlf995]

this,but dont nerf globe

[Mak_Gohae]

Mak please. At least try the other classes before hitting the reply button and digging a hole for yourself (again, sigh)

 

Every other big AoE damage 4 is either much faster (1 second or less cast time) or applies some sort of CC to all enemies within the area within a decent range. Frost is alone with having both a lengthy 2 second + cast time as well as a paltry 15m range on his 4.

 

LOL! This is hilarious.

You mean like freezing it's targets?

[CelsiusPrime]

agreed. Frost isn't a damge frame he's a sole support and CC frame

[UnworthySeraph]

I've been trying to pitch this sort of thing forever...

[-CM-Sean]

I'm all for balance in the game, but what will be the ability of frost that will actually make him tanky now?? he will be a slow moving frame with a very low health snowglobe health that can be one killed in one shot in many situation.  I predict that frost will Not be played or will be seen much less now. as there will be other frames that can do a much better job, are faster and more usefull.

 

oh someone is down let me go put a snowglobe in peace and save them, oh wait, I won't because 24 grineers shooting at my globe and i'll just die too, hmmmm... better let them die.

 

nice, this will solve the problem of people ignoring downed friends because they are too scared to go save a dying friend, thus creating a more coop game.

 

we will see how this is going to work when a rhino can do 10x more as a tank then frost can now:

 

 

Rhino: Frost can you go save that guy oberon who's down, I"m kinda busy here.

 

Frost: but, i'm slow, i have nothing to protect me, its wave 10 at xini, and my globe was already getting one shotted at wave 5, what if i die too.

 

Rhino: hmm.. ok i'll just run there stomp, put enemies in stasis, put my iron skin on, revive him.  please don't die while i'm gone.  use your avalanche maybe, i don't know, do something, just don't die

 

 a little while later..

 

Rhino: Frost what happened?

 

Frost: I don't know, non of my abilites do anything at this stage of the game.

 

Oberon: but i kept sending you heal, multiple times.

 

Frost: i don't know, this globe doesn't work anymore.

 

Rhino, and Oberon watch frost as he takes his last breath.  Rest in peace my friend, one day you might be useful again.

 

 

 

 

 

[Vollkommen]

3500 hp seems much too low, also, goddammit:

 

- (rhetorical) have I wasted a lot of cores ranking up Narrow Minded?

- probably going to have to re-forma Frost if I want to mimic current playstyle

- Will the new SG be duration-based in addition to the hp-limit?

- Will friendly fire take away the SG hp?

 

While a change needed to be made, as it really did trivialize a part of defense, I don't think giving it hp is a good way to do it.  With hp, it basically becomes Sanctuary, which drops nearly instantly in any sort of focus-fire situation.  Even with power mods affecting hp, it will quickly become a nearly useless skill in any sort of high-level content, while still nearly trivializing low-level content.  As hp increases, you only slightly raise the threshold of it staying (almost) where it is now and the point where it'll take longer to cast it than it will last under fire.

 

Instead of immunity, I would suggest simply giving it a significant damage reduction inside the globe (like 17/34/51%), or having the globe deflect a certain %-age of incoming fire (like 20/40/60%) and keeping the current duration-focused builds relatively untouched.  There would still be benefits to using it in point-defense and there would be a larger incentive to keep moving and get on the offensive to take out targets, instead of trying to outlast them (since stuff inside the globe would still be taking fire).  All that said, please don't change the way the current slow/freeze radius works (independent of range and power mods), whatever you do.  

 

The new Ice Blast looks nice, though I still likely won't use it, Ice Wave, or Avalanche at all, just not a fan of damage-based powers.  Would you consider combining Ice Blast and Ice Wave into a single power and making a new one for power 1 or 2?  The only problems I have with Freeze right now is how quickly it gets broken and how annoying it is to try and target stuff directly in any of the more chaotic battles.

 

In short:

- Combine Ice Blast and Ice Wave into a single skill.

- Make the SG reduce or deflect incoming damage instead of absorbing it

- Avalanche changes look great

- for a fourth skill, maybe give Frost some mobility?  Like a duration aura that slows enemies in a small radius (a la coolant leak) and gives a speed and length boost to Frost's sliding (a la maglev)

 

finally:

- if SG gets hp, what limit is there on recasting it so it doesn't simply become spam-globe where the Frost is basically glued to the objective while the noobs/A******s on the team are off killing enemies in other rooms like Xini's hallway heroes of yore?

Edited February 5, 2014 by Vollkommen

[xoxcloudxox]

Thats why im hoping that the changes to his other ablilties will make them more viable. If they made all his abilities proc cold status it would help him alot.

 

Frost is an ice frame yet hardly any of his skills do any icy AoE slow effects.

[Genoscythe]

Not really. Snowglobe was useful mostly at higher levels. Any other frame can nuke a whole room of trash mobs pressing 4 or just shooting.

 

Only frost can keep the pod safe under heavy fire at higher levels.

 

Yeah, because an indestructable shield that slows down everything inside is needed, if players clean the map/mobs fast enough, the snow globe stays healthy, also, it does not seem to have a timer anymore. Some skills just need a nerf, I hope trinitys 4 is next. And a maxed blind rage + a focus will certainly improve its health. If an indestructible barrier is needed nonstop, dont you think its the game mode that is flawed?

 

The game needs more focus on skilled playing instead of relying on single skills and grinding.

[Bloomers]

agree, ready to discuss blessing and molecular prime?

You're completing missing the guys point then.  Both those frames have skills worth slotting, not just one.

[Felandi]

As long as the snow globe health scales properly with power strength and it is given a huge health pool to deal with higher level enemies, things will be fine.

 

If a single corpus tech can take out a fresh and maxed snowglobe in ten seconds, then it is buff time.

[PrincessWhite]

LOL! This is hilarious.

You mean like freezing it's targets?

You find that hilarious? I don't find dyslexia very hilarious. I kind of pity you for having that seeing as how you missed half of my post there.

[Bloomers]

Snowglobe is far too low.  We were never talking about blocking a single enemy, but now that is a large threat to the snowglobe's survivability.  This just made Frost undesirable from any and all standpoints.  If anything this is going to limit party comps more and exclude/deny Frost players if they are the slightest bit of an elitist.

[CelsiusPrime]

If a single corpus tech can take out a fresh and maxed snowglobe in ten seconds, then it is buff time.

my guess is it will be under heavy surveillance for the first few days to weeks.

[PsychedelicSnake]

Frost is an ice frame yet hardly any of his skills do any icy AoE slow effects.

Hence the added AOE on Freeze.

[r0ckwolf]

my guess is it will be under heavy surveillance for the first few days to weeks.

i think so too. it´s really hard to tell only from the numbers if it´s gonna be usefull or not, but we all know that it was always one of the strongest (if not the strongest) lategame skills in the game. A rework seems absolutely legit in my book!^^

[xoxcloudxox]

Hence the added AOE on Freeze.

 

And what of ice wave and avalanche?

[kirabean]

This is kinda upsetting to hear, if it gets nerfed...ugh why..

[-Synapse-]

I wouldn't mind a Snowglobe nerf, IF they buff his now-useless 1, 2 and 4.

[Mak_Gohae]

You find that hilarious? I don't find dyslexia very hilarious. I kind of pity you for having that seeing as how you missed half of my post there.

 

i didnt fully answer the whole thing because i didnt want to totally embarrass you but Frost is not the only Warframe that stands there for a bit while their 4th is going.  Excalibur has a long animation that has you stuck in place until you are done and his power hits a limited number of people, Banshee is also stuck in place for the duration, Baron Samedi is stuck for a looooong time casting Shadows of the Dead.

 

Fast cast may be problematic because it can sort of mean that we are loosing CC and loosing CC is bad at higher levels because damage eventually drops off and the best thing you can do is CC enemies to stop their damage and making them easier to kill.

[TC-Guardian]

I personally think DE should try complete a few orokin void TIII defences with the new frost snow globe, because that will be the true test. If it works fine, then the community wont mind. But currently it is the saving grace for most attempts at T3D and so if it doesn't work I'm going with the fact there will be outrage.

[Zerikin]

Also really screws up polarities on frost. You'll need a bunch of +dmg instead of duration, completely messing up the additional tactics/defence polarities that people playing would have added since attack polarity has been historically unused on him.

[WharOne]

So, instead of making it so that Frost has 4 actual viable powers, you nerf his only useful one so hard that the absolutely pathetic numerical "upgrades" on the others look substantial? Absolutely bloody fantastic. I mean, having capped numbers in a game where enemies scale indefinitely would be a horrific and laughable design decision, but honestly, not surprised anymore.

 

I don't think DE or any of their droning fanbase ever understood why Frost was good. There's two main types of defense for missions: preventive defense and mitigative defense. Preventive defense frame abilities such as any of the ones with crowd control were fantastic for preventing incoming damage. Mitigative defense like Volt and (formerly) Frost allowed for pockets of protection when Preventive defense collapsed, or was low on energy. Ice Globe certainly wasn't invincible, because napalms could deal splash damage straight through the globe while moas had NUMBEROUS ways of knocking out people inside the dome.

 

Yeah, I admit you guys saw the problem, but picked the least effective method of fixing it possible. But again, not surprising. In a mode called DEFENSE, you never even bothered to ever create a method which measured the time someone spent closely watching the pod. Instead, the only way you measured achievement was kills, which incentivised people to sprint around like turbo retards around the map and killing everything while not focusing the ONLY objective on the list: The wellbeing of the pod. Good Frost players KNOW what when a team goes into that idiot killing spree mode, they simply do what everyone else does and in a matter of seconds, the team either learns the lesson of following the objective or fails out.

 

Even if snowglobe was to be looked at, you literally took the easiest way out by LOLNERFNAO XDDDDDDDD instead of actually looking at it. I bet they never even bothered to go past 5 minutes on Apollo or past wave 5 on ANY non-infested defense mission. If you really wanted to put a cap on it, you wouldn't has just taken Iron Skin's values and doubled them. Because simply put: Snowglobe is NOT Ironskin. Iron skin is applied on a movable object, and that movable object can take cover, move, run or slide. A snowglove cannot do any of these things. Its job is to be stationary. Stationary objects will ALWAYS take more of the brute force from any heavy units and I'm sure that at even mid level defense, the snowglobe will get torn into after a single magazine from a heavy gunner, nevermind a shot from a napalm.

 

There were a number of solutions that would have worked. Firstly, to change the way scoring is calculated on defense maps and and replace kills with a timer based on how much time spent in the proximity of the objective and as for Frost, the following:

 

1) Scale snowglobe's durability based on the types of enemy being spawned, so that the net result is the same durability at ALL levels. Durability boosted by power strength. (My personal favorite)

2) Snowglobe is invincible for 40% of its duration. For the remaining 60% of the total duration, it has the new damage cap.

 

And of course, because I know how much DE loves their excel numbers and being lazy:

 

3) Double the new damage cap numbers. Scale with Strength.

 

The goal? Because snowglobe should break when whatever's inside is being absolutely overwhelmed by an UNHOLY amount of gunfire. Not from a napalm sneezing on it.

 

Whelp, if anything shows, this is going to be like Rhino all over again. I look forward to Frost being viable again 7 months from now when he's plat-only for a Daarvo deal of $50US. The only thing that this has changed is that instead of being thanked for defending the pod, now I'm going to have three times the number of kids telling "OMG, Y U NO SNOWGLOBE, U NOOB" and being called derogative names while they STILL sprint around the entire map like idiots and again, not actually fixing the problem. Then again, I really, really should have expected this. Update 12 is make or break, huh? Hope it doesn't depend on my snowglobe, because U12 is already in shambles if it was.

 

"B-b-but it's beta!"

 

Hahahaha.

Edited February 5, 2014 by WharOne

[Thundervision]

About time, let's prepare to the rage wave

So it begins...

 

First killed Rhino as real Tank, then Ember and now this.

Rest in Peace, Frosty.

 

Excuse me, but this Frost execution was for a whiners, who playing only in Conclave?..

 

1) Ice Blast? Just... Please, just add Cryo Gun and forget about that bad idea.

Old Freeze with AoE and this would be good.

 

2) «Buffed» Avalanche? Against who, Ospreys?

Here is, how it'll be better:

It's not cheating, it causes by negative Strength mod numbers and Continuity mods.

Add additional bonus dmg against frozen targets affected by Continuity, Range and Strength mods

 

3500HP.... 

3.500HP(!)

Are you seriously? This isn't even funny...

Say it to Heavy Gunner, Napalm or Railgun on Eris, Pluto or Ceres. Of course, it's easy enough to nerf, than make it better...

 

And what kind of team play?

Skype, Raidcall and etc.+friend squad = that's team play. No offence. But that's really strange idea and decision...

 

I still remember the topic with WF as tiers. And i think Frost replaced the Volt.

Edited February 5, 2014 by Spectre-Agent