How Vanguard Helmet Ruined Rhino

[1lusion]

Not this again, there is like 5-8 other similar threads complaining about the Rhino Helmet, just deal with it already instead of bringing up the same thing over and over again.

 

Its just like complaining about Loki and Trinity's helmet giving them duration. Also they are removing stat cosmetics so just chillax.

[GrosslyIncandescent1709]

Not this again, there is like 5-8 other similar threads complaining about the Rhino Helmet, just deal with it already instead of bringing up the same thing over and over again.

 

Its just like complaining about Loki and Trinity's helmet giving them duration. Also they are removing stat cosmetics so just chillax.

no1 is complaining about vanguard itself, most people who are complaining are complaining about rhino prime in conjunction with vanguard. have you seen threads about vanguard being op before they released rhino prime? no, cause even with vanguard rhino was still acceptable. and loki doesn't have a helmet that grants duration.

[TheStag]

no1 is complaining about vanguard itself, most people who are complaining are complaining about rhino prime in conjunction with vanguard. have you seen threads about vanguard being op before they released rhino prime? no, cause even with vanguard rhino was still acceptable. and loki doesn't have a helmet that grants duration.

Actually, people complained about Vanguard with Rhino before Rhino Prime was released. Get your facts strait, and while your at it actually read the OP please.

[SquirmyBurrito]

rhino prime is expensive in one way or another(time investment/monetary investment) so he deserves the might, and with a helm that cost's money or an alert to attain (money/luck) that grants him that speed. i see no issue with this really save for pvp, so wait yea badlands are coming soon so maybe a slight nerf to rhino prime's base speed?

 

So you're telling me that just because a frame is 'expensive' and its helmet takes 'money/luck' (despite being pretty common) it deserves to rid a frame of its one weak spot? How about no. I guess Loki prime (whenever he eventually comes out) should have 1k shields and health and Radial Disarm should get a damage buff.

[ObviousLee]

So you're telling me that just because a frame is 'expensive' and its helmet takes 'money/luck' (despite being pretty common) it deserves to rid a frame of its one weak spot? How about no. I guess Loki prime (whenever he eventually comes out) should have 1k shields and health and Radial Disarm should get a damage buff.

im saying that taking pvp into consideration, a slight adjustment to rhino primes base speed might be a considerable option.

 

OTHER than that, i don't see why if someone has put in the time and effort in one or many ways to achieve something, that they shouldn't be able to do so.

 

i forma'd my phage six times for the sole purpose of giving me the most devastating builds possible with it, should i NOT be able to smoke level 100 heavy gunners because someone else says there's no reason to allow me to do so? who is anyone else to dictate how i enjoy myself on warframe?

[AuroraSonicBoom]

This isn't a nerf thread. This is a plea for balance.

 

You can rephrase it all you want, the subject of contention here is the the balance of a frame being offset by one overpowered alternate helmet, which requires to be sledgehammered into the ground with the bludgeon of nerfing.

I usually roll my eyes when someone is trying to express their feelings with the term "a slap to the face", but this is the first time I feel like this turn of phrase can be used by any non-rhino players without sounding hyperbolic. Speed is a major balancing factor in this game, and some frames are balanced around the lack of it. The answer to that isn't buffing all slow frames because you don't like that playstyle, it's to bring the imbalanced frames down to the level of everyone else. Especially in Rhino's case. There is a reason you see at least three in 4 missions, players aren't stupid. Taking the frame with the least amount of drawbacks and some of the strongest survivability, utility and damage(damage coming from weapons which aren't frame specific, so gg) is not a choice but the clearly superior option for 95% of the games content.

[SquirmyBurrito]

im saying that taking pvp into consideration, a slight adjustment to rhino primes base speed might be a considerable option.

 

OTHER than that, i don't see why if someone has put in the time and effort in one or many ways to achieve something, that they shouldn't be able to do so.

 

i forma'd my phage six times for the sole purpose of giving me the most devastating builds possible with it, should i NOT be able to smoke level 100 heavy gunners because someone else says there's no reason to allow me to do so? who is anyone else to dictate how i enjoy myself on warframe?

 

Do you metaphorically hear the things that are coming out of your metaphorical mouth? Wait. Are you one of those people who thinks that balance doesn't matter in a PvE game? That will grant me insight into your warped thought process.

 

Why does time and effort excuse a frame having no weak spots? With that line of reasoning all frames should be even better (read: have no weaknesses) because they all take effort to acquire. Rhino Prime is far from the only one. Why does Vanguard get +25% speed when Hemlock only gets +10%?

 

Nerfing RhiPri's sprint speed doesn't solve the base issue. Yes, it will sate the crowd of angry Loki fans. But it doesn't change the fact that going from tied for slowest to fourth fastest is a bit much for a frame who's main (only) weakness is his lack of speed. What other drawbacks are there to using Rhino? To find other weaknesses you have to compare him to specialist frames and then ignore the fact that he beats them in every area other than their specialized area.

[TheStag]

You can rephrase it all you want, the subject of contention here is the the balance of a frame being offset by one overpowered alternate helmet, which requires to be sledgehammered into the ground with the bludgeon of nerfing.

I usually roll my eyes when someone is trying to express their feelings with the term "a slap to the face", but this is the first time I feel like this turn of phrase can be used by any non-rhino players without sounding hyperbolic. Speed is a major balancing factor in this game, and some frames are balanced around the lack of it. The answer to that isn't buffing all slow frames because you don't like that playstyle, it's to bring the imbalanced frames down to the level of everyone else. Especially in Rhino's case. There is a reason you see at least three in 4 missions, players aren't stupid. Taking the frame with the least amount of drawbacks and some of the strongest survivability, utility and damage(damage coming from weapons which aren't frame specific, so gg) is not a choice but the clearly superior option for 95% of the games content.

Yes, the superior choice for 95% of game content. That is why it must have speed as a drawback once again. That will balance this frame.

[TheStag]

Do you metaphorically hear the things that are coming out of your metaphorical mouth? Wait. Are you one of those people who thinks that balance doesn't matter in a PvE game? That will grant me insight into your warped thought process.

 

Why does time and effort excuse a frame having no weak spots? With that line of reasoning all frames should be even better (read: have no weaknesses) because they all take effort to acquire. Rhino Prime is far from the only one. Why does Vanguard get +25% speed when Hemlock only gets +10%?

 

Nerfing RhiPri's sprint speed doesn't solve the base issue. Yes, it will sate the crowd of angry Loki fans. But it doesn't change the fact that going from tied for slowest to fourth fastest is a bit much for a frame who's main (only) weakness is his lack of speed. What other drawbacks are there to using Rhino? To find other weaknesses you have to compare him to specialist frames and then ignore the fact that he beats them in every area other than their specialized area.

Rhino Prime deserves more base speed, but Vanguard completely upsets that. If Rhino had speed as a drawback once again due to the stats being completely removed from the Vanguard Helmet, then it would be great for Rhino Prime to have a slightly higher base speed. It wouldn't be too over powered, but it would be more powerful than Rhino respectively. 

[SquirmyBurrito]

Rhino Prime deserves more base speed, but Vanguard completely upsets that. If Rhino had speed as a drawback once again due to the stats being completely removed from the Vanguard Helmet, then it would be great for Rhino Prime to have a slightly higher base speed. It wouldn't be too over powered, but it would be more powerful than Rhino respectively. 

 

I can see what you mean. Vanguard is the root of the problem.

[GetAtMeMods]

This completely ruins Rhino how he should be, and basically creates the "best" class in the game.

I beg to differ. Rhino is at best an all around frame with vanguard. Sure he can be mobile,tanky,buff team dps and cc, but he's not the "best" at any of them.

We have volt, zephyr (especially) and any loki worth his zorens that can be faster.

All frames are tankier than rhino with blessing technically. Honorable mention is valkyr and any zephyr that can avoid melee range.

Roar does 1.0x more damage with maxed mods. M prime gets 2.0x unmodded. Sonar gets 5.0x unmodded if you have decent aim.

Chaos is practically the best cc in the game.

Rhino can do everything half a**ed because he's ...wait for it...MASTERY LOCKED. Mastery frames/ weapons are stronger? No way. Mind=blown.

To everyone saying VG gives no drawbacks, it nerfs every single one of Rhino's abilities. Hemlock is basically free speed with no worthwhile drawbacks. Health scales so poorly (if you're not valkyr or trinity) compared to abilities.

[Riasiru]

Wait, wait, wait... Rhino is best frame? Really? Bwaaahahahaha!! Oh, oh wait.. You're serious? Let me laugh even louder.

 

Rhino is not best frame. Rhino is silly frame that thinks he's tough enough to tank the world. Sad truth is he can only tank early to mid game. Come late game, the world is going to curb stomp Rhino so hard, you will only keep Iron Skin around as a proc cancel. Nope, damage absorption isn't important. In fact, power strength isn't important. You know overextended? Yeah, you're going to use that and your power strength is going to drop like a rock. Funny thing? You won't care. Know why? Because Iron Skin can't block more than a couple of hits regardless of how much damage it absorbs when everything is hitting for ridiculous amounts of damage and your stomp range is so much more significant than the damage it does. The only time you won't use overextended is if you plan to run Roar. Iron skin is still just a proc cancel, though. So, what does late game Rhino bring? Big AoE CC and group wide Damage Buffs w/ the power to proc cancel. Also... He has that charge attack... I guess... Just replace it with Rush. Does the same thing.

 

Haven't you figured out why Rhino drops from such an early game boss? The reason his apparent 'best frame status' is restricted to early~mid game? He's the noobtube. A powerful weapon that's easy to use and allows players to learn. He has a low skill ceiling, but his potential is hard capped, too, and so many other frames over take him when a good player has them. Hell, Loki can tank better than Rhino late game. Radial disarm and some clever kiting w/ decoy and teleport swap. You will keep a whole gaggle of enemies occupied with little to no effort. I can solo T3MD (All be it with great difficulty.) as Loki... I'm not even going to try doing that with Rhino. Hell, I'm not even going to try doing that on T2MD.

 

I'm not upset that Rhino Prime is out because he's "Best Frame." I'm disappointed that we couldn't have gotten a more useful frame as prime.

 

Booben Prime for best frame!

[SquirmyBurrito]

I beg to differ. Rhino is at best an all around frame with vanguard. Sure he can be mobile,tanky,buff team dps and cc, but he's not the "best" at any of them.

We have volt, zephyr (especially) and any loki worth his zorens that can be faster.

All frames are tankier than rhino with blessing technically. Honorable mention is valkyr and any zephyr that can avoid melee range.

Roar does 1.0x more damage with maxed mods. M prime gets 2.0x unmodded. Sonar gets 5.0x unmodded if you have decent aim.

Chaos is practically the best cc in the game.

Rhino can do everything half a**ed because he's ...wait for it...MASTERY LOCKED. Mastery frames/ weapons are stronger? No way. Mind=blown.

To everyone saying VG gives no drawbacks, it nerfs every single one of Rhino's abilities. Hemlock is basically free speed with no worthwhile drawbacks. Health scales so poorly (if you're not valkyr or trinity) compared to abilities.

 

1. Not being the best at something doesn't change the fact that he is good at everything. Being good at everything means he only has one weak area, and that's his sprint speed. Vanguard changes that weak area into a strength.

2. Zephyr and Volt are the only frames capable of keeping up with a rushing, Vanguard wearing, Rhino Prime. Without their abilities they are slower than him. Loki isn't the only frame that can use the Dual Zoren, and if abilities are allowed in their race Rhino Prime wins because Charge moves you in excess of 50 meters with the push of a button (when modded with the necessary mods).

 

3. Trinity is tankier but has very little CC. Valkyr is tankier, but gets her damage nerfed and still have very little CC. Zephyr can tank better, but she doesn't get the immunity to knockdowns and other such things (I don't think she does much damage either).

 

4. Yes, when compared to a specialist he seems to fall short. But unlike that specialist, Rhino has other areas that he is also good in. Being mastery locked does not excuse Vanguard taking away his one weak spot.

 

5. Its 'drawback' is -5% power strength, that is free speed. Hemlock is +10% speed and -5% health, that isn't much of a drawback BUT 10% is only taking her from slow (.95) to a little above average (1.04 IIRC). Rhino goes from .9 to 1.125 (Ash is 1.15), and Rhino Prime goes from 1 to 1.25 (Loki is 1.25). Health scaling poorly means having less of it is even worse.

 

 

Wait, wait, wait... Rhino is best frame? Really? Bwaaahahahaha!! Oh, oh wait.. You're serious? Let me laugh even louder.

 

Rhino is not best frame. Rhino is silly frame that thinks he's tough enough to tank the world. Sad truth is he can only tank early to mid game. Come late game, the world is going to curb stomp Rhino so hard, you will only keep Iron Skin around as a proc cancel. Nope, damage absorption isn't important. In fact, power strength isn't important. You know overextended? Yeah, you're going to use that and your power strength is going to drop like a rock. Funny thing? You won't care. Know why? Because Iron Skin can't block more than a couple of hits regardless of how much damage it absorbs when everything is hitting for ridiculous amounts of damage and your stomp range is so much more significant than the damage it does. The only time you won't use overextended is if you plan to run Roar. Iron skin is still just a proc cancel, though. So, what does late game Rhino bring? Big AoE CC and group wide Damage Buffs w/ the power to proc cancel. Also... He has that charge attack... I guess... Just replace it with Rush. Does the same thing.

 

Haven't you figured out why Rhino drops from such an early game boss? The reason his apparent 'best frame status' is restricted to early~mid game? He's the noobtube. A powerful weapon that's easy to use and allows players to learn. He has a low skill ceiling, but his potential is hard capped, too, and so many other frames over take him when a good player has them. Hell, Loki can tank better than Rhino late game. Radial disarm and some clever kiting w/ decoy and teleport swap. You will keep a whole gaggle of enemies occupied with little to no effort. I can solo T3MD (All be it with great difficulty.) as Loki... I'm not even going to try doing that with Rhino. Hell, I'm not even going to try doing that on T2MD.

 

I'm not upset that Rhino Prime is out because he's "Best Frame." I'm disappointed that we couldn't have gotten a more useful frame as prime.

 

Booben Prime for best frame!

 

 

>Doesn't understand what the thread is talking about.

>Rants about Rhino's downfall in high level gameplay.

>Also doesn't realize how good charge is.

Edited March 23, 2014 by SquirmyBurrito

[TheStag]

Wait, wait, wait... Rhino is best frame? Really? Bwaaahahahaha!! Oh, oh wait.. You're serious? Let me laugh even louder.

 

Rhino is not best frame. Rhino is silly frame that thinks he's tough enough to tank the world. Sad truth is he can only tank early to mid game. Come late game, the world is going to curb stomp Rhino so hard, you will only keep Iron Skin around as a proc cancel. Nope, damage absorption isn't important. In fact, power strength isn't important. You know overextended? Yeah, you're going to use that and your power strength is going to drop like a rock. Funny thing? You won't care. Know why? Because Iron Skin can't block more than a couple of hits regardless of how much damage it absorbs when everything is hitting for ridiculous amounts of damage and your stomp range is so much more significant than the damage it does. The only time you won't use overextended is if you plan to run Roar. Iron skin is still just a proc cancel, though. So, what does late game Rhino bring? Big AoE CC and group wide Damage Buffs w/ the power to proc cancel. Also... He has that charge attack... I guess... Just replace it with Rush. Does the same thing.

 

Haven't you figured out why Rhino drops from such an early game boss? The reason his apparent 'best frame status' is restricted to early~mid game? He's the noobtube. A powerful weapon that's easy to use and allows players to learn. He has a low skill ceiling, but his potential is hard capped, too, and so many other frames over take him when a good player has them. Hell, Loki can tank better than Rhino late game. Radial disarm and some clever kiting w/ decoy and teleport swap. You will keep a whole gaggle of enemies occupied with little to no effort. I can solo T3MD (All be it with great difficulty.) as Loki... I'm not even going to try doing that with Rhino. Hell, I'm not even going to try doing that on T2MD.

 

I'm not upset that Rhino Prime is out because he's "Best Frame." I'm disappointed that we couldn't have gotten a more useful frame as prime.

 

Booben Prime for best frame!

I am not starting a "best frame" war, but Vanguard removes Rhino's biggest, balancing downside. Ok? Now stop derailing the thread or get out.

Edited March 23, 2014 by TheStag

[nekrojiji]

Rhino is not a tank...can you understand that?!

 

Rhino's resistance increases with his skill power.... how is that tank like?!

 

Oh yes .... this game doesn't have tanks, healers, assasins, archers or mages. It has space ninjas.

[nekrojiji]

Rhino is not a tank...can you understand that?!

 

Rhino's resistance increases with his skill power.... how is that tank like?!

 

Oh yes .... this game doesn't have tanks, healers, assasins, archers or mages. It has space ninjas.

[Riasiru]

Just tell me one thing. Do you honestly think that taking away the Vanguard Helmet will make him less "well rounded?" Is he going to be crippled at all in Defense, Mobile Defense,  Survival, Assassination, (if your allies wait for you) or any of the other game modes people actually don't care too much about? Fact is, when the majority of missions involve going to a specific location and either guarding it or fighting something in a long drawn out (or not) battle, speed doesn't matter that much.

 

So, stop telling me that it's his one weakness. Tell me what it is going to do to him mechanically. What does sprint speed effect? First and foremost, how quickly you can move from point A to point B. Now let's create a scenario. Point A is Rhino's current position and point B is a team mate on the ground bleeding out. If Vanguard allows him to move from point A to B in this scenario faster, you are less likely to need to use up a revive. In fact, if he can move fast, he's less likely to say screw it and leave you to one of the "faster frames" that might be even farther away than he is at a given time cause Hallway Heroes.

 

Next, it reduces how quickly you can wall run. This means it will be harder to climb up over things or along walls for prolonged periods. It makes a few treasure rooms in the Void a nightmare to get to, in fact. So... Ok, guess that's one way of nerfing him. Deny him loot. Cause... Yeah... There's totally not going to be three Nova in the group using Worm Hole.

 

And Finally, you will have people Rhino Charging to get places faster. This negates my first point about rezzing because, well. He's probably the fastest frame with that. Bar none. It doesn't even matter if he's wearing Vanguard. It's still faster. The problem is, if people maximize this for speed then they'll forego Fleeting Expertise, they'll also nerf the range of  Stomp because of Narrow Minded's effect. Thankfully, Roar will be extremely effective due to the duration, but since the range is gimped so badly, only people sitting right on top of the Rhino will be able to make use of it.

 

Sprint Speed is a luxury. Taking it away isn't going to make Rhino any less of a well rounded frame. It's just going to make people play him in bad ways.

Edited March 23, 2014 by Riasiru

[ObviousLee]

Do you metaphorically hear the things that are coming out of your metaphorical mouth? Wait. Are you one of those people who thinks that balance doesn't matter in a PvE game? That will grant me insight into your warped thought process.

 

Why does time and effort excuse a frame having no weak spots? With that line of reasoning all frames should be even better (read: have no weaknesses) because they all take effort to acquire. Rhino Prime is far from the only one. Why does Vanguard get +25% speed when Hemlock only gets +10%?

 

Nerfing RhiPri's sprint speed doesn't solve the base issue. Yes, it will sate the crowd of angry Loki fans. But it doesn't change the fact that going from tied for slowest to fourth fastest is a bit much for a frame who's main (only) weakness is his lack of speed. What other drawbacks are there to using Rhino? To find other weaknesses you have to compare him to specialist frames and then ignore the fact that he beats them in every area other than their specialized area.

Your assumptive nature aside, I do not appreciate you questioning my sanity in regards to feeling that if someone puts 100 hours into making something amazing, it's not right, nor fair to say "you cant have that because there's no reason that i can conceive as to why you should".

 

all it sounds like is "you got it cant have it cause i said so.

 

if you can show me mathematically how the vanguard helmet is game breaking, i might change my opinion. however, all it sounds like, AS USUAL, is that someone wants take away a potential because why? you dont like it? you dont FEEL rhino should move that fast? why? who are YOU to make that decision for the player base?

 

if i want to make my frame go fast, REALLY fast, im GOING to have to make a sacrifice, or two minimum. what YOU all seem to want, is a cookie cutter mold in which all frames play a specific way and thats it.

 

i PROMOTE some form of customization, and UNLESS the vanguard helmet gives some sort of time warp ability that makes rhino kill all mobs as he's sprinting then in my warped opinion, i see nothing wrong. sacrifice power, for speed, or did you forget thats the offset for the vanguard helm?

[TheStag]

Just tell me one thing. Do you honestly think that taking away the Vanguard Helmet will make him less "well rounded?" Is he going to be crippled at all in Defense, Mobile Defense,  Survival, Assassination, (if your allies wait for you) or any of the other game modes people actually don't care too much about? Fact is, when the majority of missions involve going to a specific location and either guarding it or fighting something in a long drawn out (or not) battle, speed doesn't matter that much.

 

So, stop telling me that it's his one weakness. Tell me what it is going to do to him mechanically. What does sprint speed effect? First and foremost, how quickly you can move from point A to point B. Now let's create a scenario. Point A is Rhino's current position and point B is a team mate on the ground bleeding out. If Vanguard allows him to move from point A to B in this scenario faster, you are less likely to need to use up a revive. In fact, if he can move fast, he's less likely to say screw it and leave you to one of the "faster frames" that might be even farther away than he is at a given time cause Hallway Heroes.

 

Next, it reduces how quickly you can wall run. This means it will be harder to climb up over things or along walls for prolonged periods. It makes a few treasure rooms in the Void a nightmare to get to, in fact. So... Ok, guess that's one way of nerfing him. Deny him loot. Cause... Yeah... There's totally not going to be three Nova in the group using Worm Hole.

 

And Finally, you will have people Rhino Charging to get places faster. This negates my first point about rezzing because, well. He's probably the fastest frame with that. Bar none. It doesn't even matter if he's wearing Vanguard. It's still faster. The problem is, if people maximize this for speed then they'll forego Fleeting Expertise, they'll also nerf the range of  Stomp because of Narrow Minded's effect. Thankfully, Roar will be extremely effective due to the duration, but since the range is gimped so badly, only people sitting right on top of the Rhino will be able to make use of it.

 

Sprint Speed is a luxury. Taking it away isn't going to make Rhino any less of a well rounded frame. It's just going to make people play him in bad ways.

 

 

Your assumptive nature aside, I do not appreciate you questioning my sanity in regards to feeling that if someone puts 100 hours into making something amazing, it's not right, nor fair to say "you cant have that because there's no reason that i can conceive as to why you should".

 

all it sounds like is "you got it cant have it cause i said so.

 

if you can show me mathematically how the vanguard helmet is game breaking, i might change my opinion. however, all it sounds like, AS USUAL, is that someone wants take away a potential because why? you dont like it? you dont FEEL rhino should move that fast? why? who are YOU to make that decision for the player base?

 

if i want to make my frame go fast, REALLY fast, im GOING to have to make a sacrifice, or two minimum. what YOU all seem to want, is a cookie cutter mold in which all frames play a specific way and thats it.

 

i PROMOTE some form of customization, and UNLESS the vanguard helmet gives some sort of time warp ability that makes rhino kill all mobs as he's sprinting then in my warped opinion, i see nothing wrong. sacrifice power, for speed, or did you forget thats the offset for the vanguard helm?

@ Riasiru You must not play this game if you think speed does not affect much of anything. Go play some public online games for once.

@ObviousLee The Vanguard helmet makes Rhino unbalanced. It makes his main, if only downside a strength. Each frame should have a downside for balance sake.

[ObviousLee]

@ Riasiru You must not play this game if you think speed does not affect much of anything. Go play some public online games for once.

@ObviousLee The Vanguard helmet makes Rhino unbalanced. It makes his main, if only downside a strength. Each frame should have a downside for balance sake.

well, i find that people who play mid game levels with an endgame setup and complain about balance should really take a hard look at what they're doing. not saying thats you, but yea, dont equip endgame mods and gear and go to mid game content and complain about balance.

[(PSN)billy-d-squid]

And here we are, let the whining begin!

 

Rhino is faster than me, he can outrun and kill me... Oh, wait, it's not a PvP game, the speed gives him no advantage over me!

 

 

Are you $&*&*#(%&? "it's a PvP game" why are there so many idiots that use that argument on this forum? Have people begun breeding with vegetables? Or have people stuck one too many crayons up their nose? I really want to know, I'm genuinely curious how certain people on here can be so obtuse. 

 

If Rhino can sprint to the next room faster than most "light frames" why would I bother leaving the start position, I could go AFK and no one would notice the difference with a Vanguard Rhino rushing in and stomping every room. 

 

The problem has never been that Vanguard helm exists, or that it gives a speed boost, the problem has been that it is the only helm which gives a 25% benefit to a characteristic, one which is severely lacking on Rhino, yet it in doing so it fails to address the actual issue that Rhino outside of defence and clan team games is functionally useless, being too slow, falling behind even base lvl frames. The same with Frost and Saryn. Yet the Vanguard pushes up to daft lvls were it not only keeps pace with the average speed of 1.0/1.1 but actually exceeds it, putting it in front of light frames, who actually require the speed because their armour/ shields are made out of children's tears and tissue paper. 

 

I really didn't realise I'd have to point out the obvious so much, Jesus Christ!

[Monolake]

I dont even think Rhino has to be SLOW.  But he shouldn't be one of the FASTEST frames either, that is unbalanced for sure. 

 

 

Vanguard defenders who say 'speed doesnt matter' are just hypocrites. 

[GetAtMeMods]

1. Not being the best at something doesn't change the fact that he is good at everything. Being good at everything means he only has one weak area, and that's his sprint speed. Vanguard changes that weak area into a strength.

2. Zephyr and Volt are the only frames capable of keeping up with a rushing, Vanguard wearing, Rhino Prime. Without their abilities they are slower than him. Loki isn't the only frame that can use the Dual Zoren, and if abilities are allowed in their race Rhino Prime wins because Charge moves you in excess of 50 meters with the push of a button (when modded with the necessary mods).

 

3. Trinity is tankier but has very little CC. Valkyr is tankier, but gets her damage nerfed and still have very little CC. Zephyr can tank better, but she doesn't get the immunity to knockdowns and other such things (I don't think she does much damage either).

 

4. Yes, when compared to a specialist he seems to fall short. But unlike that specialist, Rhino has other areas that he is also good in. Being mastery locked does not excuse Vanguard taking away his one weak spot.

 

5. Its 'drawback' is -5% power strength, that is free speed. Hemlock is +10% speed and -5% health, that isn't much of a drawback BUT 10% is only taking her from slow (.95) to a little above average (1.04 IIRC). Rhino goes from .9 to 1.125 (Ash is 1.15), and Rhino Prime goes from 1 to 1.25 (Loki is 1.25). Health scaling poorly means having less of it is even worse.

1) and it nerfs all his abilities. 

 

2) Biased arguement. Why don't you mention Switch Teleport?

 

3) Unlike IS these skills actually negate damage and scale. Zephyr doesn't need to do damage when her cc does work at all levels. 

 

4) Other mastery locked items have no "weak area" or "weak spots". Look at PP. For bows, paris prime is good at everything stat-wise.

 

5) lol. Having modded-health is nice, and modded-shields are even nicer, but at the end of the day modded-abilities are going to get you through the starchart.

[ZzVinniezZ]

wouldn't Vanguard helmet would be useful if Rhino is the only one who can active the life support from far away (while all team is down and Rhino focus on killing and forgot about the oxygen bar)?

[Monolake]

 

The problem has never been that Vanguard helm exists, or that it gives a speed boost, the problem has been that it is the only helm which gives a 25% benefit to a characteristic, one which is severely lacking on Rhino, yet it in doing so it fails to address the actual issue that Rhino outside of defence and clan team games is functionally useless, being too slow, falling behind even base lvl frames. The same with Frost and Saryn. Yet the Vanguard pushes up to daft lvls were it not only keeps pace with the average speed of 1.0/1.1 but actually exceeds it, putting it in front of light frames, who actually require the speed because their armour/ shields are made out of children's tears and tissue paper. 

 

 

Actually lower than average speed never was a problem for Rhino since he can easily swap survivability mods for speed mods since Iron skin gives him enough protection for all the normal missions. He never needed Vanguard, but Vanguard made him into the best rushing frame (before Zephyr)