Why Does Stamina Exist?

[Mistikman]

Capture missions were seen as a negative by the vast majority of the playerbase. As such, DE made the responsible choice to revamp the capture missions to both be more interesting (and different from other mission types,) and also provide a unique reward, giving positive incentive to players to do such missions.

 

In addition, the rolling mechanic when vaulting over objects or jumping short distances was similarly inhibiting the enjoyment of the playerbase while providing no positive benefit (unless you view rolling off ledges on short platforms positive.) As a result we now have an option to limit our exposure to the roll of disaster to long falls.

 

A mechanic that I feel needs to be looked at next is Stamina. In a game about space ninja cyborg (terrorists,) why am I constantly limited in my ability to run and parkour? The rapid movement and parkouring are one of the biggest draws in the game, and running out of stamina ruins both of these, by forcing me to stop and walk for 3-4 seconds so I may continue enjoying my ninja moves. Stamina is also an active hinderance to melee combat, as I am required to close distance with targets, but blocking and swinging my weapon both rapidly deplete my stamina bar, leaving me unable to do anything but casually walk towards the target who is shooting at me. That is not very ninja-like.

 

Summary:

 

I would posit that there is no benefit provided by stamina, but a variety of negatives that directly detract from the enjoyment of the game. It should thus be removed so ninjas can be ninjas in perpetuity.

[Deidaku]

Movement in general needs to be reworked.

 

Parkour 2.0 please

[Judge_Hellboy]

I'd like to test the game without a stamina bar.  Give us an infinite stamina weekend to see where it could possibly create issue.

[Pokeking135]

agreed...

[Engret]

Indeed, especially with the new melee if you're out of stamina you can't run towards your enemies faster instead strutting at a slow pace swinging your melee like an idiot. Way worse with heavy melee's as well. This was also why I found Ash really fun with Teleport. He can tele + kill someone, tele + kill someone etc. Very smooth and effective. Until they added an arbitrary forced finisher when you Teleport to someone. I don't want to stand there and be forced to wait for a bad animation (it is bad) and take free fire from enemies. Why does it have to be forced? Why add it in the beginning?   

Edited June 3, 2014 by Engret

[Arlayn]

actually there is a good reason for it. If you pay attention you will notice DE has been adding animations for the Tenno to get confused, and lose balance. When a commander switches with you the Tenno stands still looking around like wtf. If you use cleaving whirlwind and continue to do the whirlwind attack to the very end the Tenno will lose balance and act all dizzy. Obviously Tenno are not gods, and can get tired. Its quite logical if you think about how DE has been adding things to the game. They want to show the Tenno are mortal. As they say...

 

"If it bleeds, it can be killed"

[Arlayn]

I'd like to test the game without a stamina bar.  Give us an infinite stamina weekend to see where it could possibly create issue.

you don't need to do that lol... The obvious issue is controlling people to not use infinite stamina to run to places they definitely shouldn't be able to reach. As running can get you to place only Zephy's flying can get you, and then some as wall running can get you further than that without infinite stamina.

Edited June 3, 2014 by Arlayn

[Keltik0ne]

The stamina system may be clunky and poorly done, but it serves the purpose of acting as a limiter of our godly abilities.

 

Also, Scott likes it but wanted it to be even more limiting.

[Sasquatchias]

actually there is a good reason for it. If you pay attention you will notice DE has been adding animations for the Tenno to get confused, and lose balance. When a commander switches with you the Tenno stands still looking around like wtf. If you use cleaving whirlwind and continue to do the whirlwind attack to the very end the Tenno will lose balance and act all dizzy. Obviously Tenno are not gods, and can get tired. Its quite logical if you think about how DE has been adding things to the game. They want to show the Tenno are mortal. As they say...

 

"If it bleeds, it can be killed"

 

Good reason, but I still feel that the stamina bar is far too small.

[Sasquatchias]

The stamina system may be clunky and poorly done, but it serves the purpose of acting as a limiter of our godly abilities.

 

Also, Scott likes it but wanted it to be even more limiting.

Scott likes to see us suffer.

[liavalenth]

The question is good, but the conclusion I think is incomplete. I would like an answer to, "Why does stamina exist?", then we can work on how to improve it and if it should be removed.

[NikolaiLev]

Actually, I feel there needs to be far more stamina management than there is now.  Running out of stamina should be punishing.

 

It doesn't need to be dark souls level of stamina management, but it should actually make stamina mods useful.

 

Stamina can do a lot of cool things for the depth of the game.  Removing it doesn't do anyone any favors.

Edited June 3, 2014 by NikolaiLev

[Steelleef]

In its current implementation, it is a very poor resource to manage.

 

 

 

I'd much rather have a very LARGE stamina bar, but if you burn through it all, you suffer burnout, removing the ability to do any stamina related action until it fully recharges. 

 

Furthermore, fix the fact that things like butt-sliding (not full out sliding, but where you barely tap your rear end to the ground before getting back up) and zorencoptering heavily reduce the stamina cost of "running" at high speeds to the point you usually come out with more stamina that what you started with.

Edited June 3, 2014 by Steelleef

[(PSN)theelix]

I'm guessing you've never used shield flux. 

[Wahooo]

The stamina system may be clunky and poorly done, but it serves the purpose of acting as a limiter of our godly abilities.

 

Also, Scott likes it but wanted it to be even more limiting.

Pretty much this.

Someone posted an extra credits video that was really relevant in one of the previous threads about this.  It is just, stamina doesn't really have a place in the game the way it is now.

If there were fewer... like WAY fewer, but harder enemies, MUCH harder and the movement and melee had to be metered out but every movement mattered then maybe stamina would have a better purpose.  But right now the move and shoot is too much on the arcadey side for the stamina bar to ADD to the gameplay and all it does is slow us down in weird times.

[Charismo]

Actually, I feel there needs to be far more stamina management than there is now.  Running out of stamina should be punishing.

 

It doesn't need to be dark souls level of stamina management, but it should actually make stamina mods useful.

 

Stamina can do a lot of cool things for the depth of the game.  Removing it doesn't do anyone any favors.

 

 

You don't make stamina mods relevant by forcing people to use them out of necessity. That's doesn't make them meaningful, it just limits choice even further.

 

Stamina should be at a good fun baseline, with the option of using up mod space to enhance your movement with stamina mods.

[taiiat]

actually, Rolling still hasn't been resolved.

 

we were told it was basically all but gone, but it still seems to happen from annoyingly short distances.

be nice if we could finish up truly fixing that first.

 

as for the Stamina Bar - considering the game heavily incentivizes Butt Chugging (which is either tapping Slide or spending a considerable portion of your time moving forwards being in either an air or ground slide) since it increases speed while recharging Stamina - i'm not surprised we have it. we can already move extremely quickly for nigh infinite periods of time, so Stamina limits us very little as it is.

we can Melee Attack without Stamina, so it's effect is largely nominal, mostly requiring pauses infrequently, in a simple mission such as destroying a Reactor, between spawning and Extraction, chances are pauses will add up to about half a dozen, one or those being to destroy the Reactor, and a couple other pockmarked here and there.

it does however, limit parkour movements. and that's where it really balances us out.

 

i consider Stamina one of those things to keep an eye on and to require pauses from time to time to make us more vulnerable (as the faster we move and more parkour we do, the more pseudo invulnerable we are), but in just general movement, does not have a large effect.

and because of that, it's probably not worth changing again unless we need to.

[Kuhrasu]

Oh, what's that, you want to feel like a real sci-fi ninja? Tough luck, kid

Edited June 4, 2014 by Kuhrasu

[Psroij]

Wahoo hit it on the head. With the game play as it currently is stamina is, and always will be, useless. It is not limiting to the people it is supposed to limit, because the rushers just zorencopter and buttslide too victory. Making stamina arduously limiting also will not affect those people, but everyone else will find themselves incapable of doing anything effectively (much like the last time stamina was "made to matter").

 

Stamina does not act as any kind of limiter on player abilities/power, and, frankly, in its current state Warframe does not need yet another poorly implemented limiter on top of all the others. Energy is already supposed to be the limiter for player power, why do we really need yet another system that's only purpose is to make it more tedious to get from point A to point B?

 

The only use I could see stamina having is as a simple time limit on wall running, since Parkour 1.0 is based on Tenno having magnet feet that follow specific invisible parkour tracks on the walls —and, hopefully, if parkour 2.0 comes out such a thing would be unnecessary. There is no reason to use it as a normal sprinting limiter, since there are (Warframe-physics exploiting) workarounds that allow players to move at sprinting speeds indefinitely. The only people it hurts are those who either do not have the manual dexterity to pull off slide dashing, or think it is stupid that sliding around on their keester all day is required to actually move quickly and so refuse to do so.

 

If DE wants to actually fix the foundational gameplay mechanics (parkour 2.0, non-bullet sponge reliant bosses and mooks, melee 2.5, a true damage 2.0) then maybe stamina can be made into something that can work with Warframe. Until then, stamina will always be an annoying hindrance —a useless vestigial organ— that keeps people from actually being able to enjoy the clunky movement system, and limited combat system, as fluidly as it will allow.

 

DE just needs to decouple stamina from everything but wall running, and quit pretending that it is adding, or ever could add, anything of worth to Warframe with the game mechanics that are currently implemented.

[Kuhrasu]

*snip* Gist of argument was that the stamina system pointlessly limits movement.

None of that matters chief. The issue is that DE, again, think they know better than developers that have nailed down this type of system in the action game genre. I want you to think for a second, what fast paced game limits your movement? Does Quake limit your movement, does Devil May Cry limit your movement, does Metal Gear Rising limit your movement, does Serious Sam limit your movement? NO!

Do you know what games does limit your movement, Souls games, S.T.A.L.K.E.R. games, do you know why, because those are slow paced, decision driven action games, not reflex driven.

 

The green bar needs to go

Edited June 4, 2014 by Kuhrasu

[kultuu]

None of that matters chief. The issue is that DE, again, think they know better than developers that have nailed down this type of system in the action game genre. I want you to think for a second, what fast paced game limits your movement? Does Quake limit your movement, does Devil May Cry limit your movement, does Metal Gear Rising limit your movement, does Serious Sam limit your movement? NO!

Do you know what games does limit your movement, Souls games, S.T.A.L.K.E.R. games, do you know why, because those are slow paced, decision driven action games, not reflex driven.

 

The green bar needs to go

 

+1

 

i couldn't have said it better myself, stamina atm is just a superflous and broken gameplay mechanic.

[pyrleon87]

Honestly, I never cared much about stamina at all. Before and after melee 2.0, I could run, slide, jump, roll etc and hack away at enemies all I want without even looking at the green bar just once. To me, the one and only limit this bar provides is that you can't just wall-run to the top of a map (unless of cour'se you're Loki with certain mods). And even IF you could do that, there's still invisible walls stopping you at places you could reach at 0 stamina anyway. Also, if I remember correctly, it affected blocking too ... but then again, I never use that either.

 

So, to keep it short: I, too, see no need for stamina as the game is now.

[CY13ERPUNK]

Movement in general needs to be reworked.

 

Parkour 2.0 please

 

 

I'd like to test the game without a stamina bar.  Give us an infinite stamina weekend to see where it could possibly create issue.

 

 

In its current implementation, it is a very poor resource to manage.

 

 

 

I'd much rather have a very LARGE stamina bar, but if you burn through it all, you suffer burnout, removing the ability to do any stamina related action until it fully recharges. 

 

Furthermore, fix the fact that things like butt-sliding (not full out sliding, but where you barely tap your rear end to the ground before getting back up) and zorencoptering heavily reduce the stamina cost of "running" at high speeds to the point you usually come out with more stamina that what you started with.

 

 

Pretty much this.

Someone posted an extra credits video that was really relevant in one of the previous threads about this.  It is just, stamina doesn't really have a place in the game the way it is now.

If there were fewer... like WAY fewer, but harder enemies, MUCH harder and the movement and melee had to be metered out but every movement mattered then maybe stamina would have a better purpose.  But right now the move and shoot is too much on the arcadey side for the stamina bar to ADD to the gameplay and all it does is slow us down in weird times.

 

 

You don't make stamina mods relevant by forcing people to use them out of necessity. That's doesn't make them meaningful, it just limits choice even further.

 

Stamina should be at a good fun baseline, with the option of using up mod space to enhance your movement with stamina mods.

 

 

Wahoo hit it on the head. With the game play as it currently is stamina is, and always will be, useless. It is not limiting to the people it is supposed to limit, because the rushers just zorencopter and buttslide too victory. Making stamina arduously limiting also will not affect those people, but everyone else will find themselves incapable of doing anything effectively (much like the last time stamina was "made to matter").

 

Stamina does not act as any kind of limiter on player abilities/power, and, frankly, in its current state Warframe does not need yet another poorly implemented limiter on top of all the others. Energy is already supposed to be the limiter for player power, why do we really need yet another system that's only purpose is to make it more tedious to get from point A to point B?

 

The only use I could see stamina having is as a simple time limit on wall running, since Parkour 1.0 is based on Tenno having magnet feet that follow specific invisible parkour tracks on the walls —and, hopefully, if parkour 2.0 comes out such a thing would be unnecessary. There is no reason to use it as a normal sprinting limiter, since there are (Warframe-physics exploiting) workarounds that allow players to move at sprinting speeds indefinitely. The only people it hurts are those who either do not have the manual dexterity to pull off slide dashing, or think it is stupid that sliding around on their keester all day is required to actually move quickly and so refuse to do so.

 

If DE wants to actually fix the foundational gameplay mechanics (parkour 2.0, non-bullet sponge reliant bosses and mooks, melee 2.5, a true damage 2.0) then maybe stamina can be made into something that can work with Warframe. Until then, stamina will always be an annoying hindrance —a useless vestigial organ— that keeps people from actually being able to enjoy the clunky movement system, and limited combat system, as fluidly as it will allow.

 

DE just needs to decouple stamina from everything but wall running, and quit pretending that it is adding, or ever could add, anything of worth to Warframe with the game mechanics that are currently implemented.

 

^^^^ THIS

 

atm currently stamina is a half-implemented clunky system that only really serves to present a hassle to existing play mechanics

[Cabadath5]

Removing stamina would probably be the best thing DE could do about the game in this moment.

 

It would make parry useful on higher level missions where it is still obsolete, would remove all the stamina mods from the table(that most people do not use over ability improving mods), would make parkour far more interesting, would remove the need to butt-slide every 5 seconds while sprinting...

 

Also

 

Oh, what's that, you want to feel like a real sci-fi ninja? Tough luck, kid

I do sincerely hope this thread gets more attention.

[Kuhrasu]

Removing stamina would probably be the best thing DE could do about the game in this moment.

 

It would make parry useful on higher level missions where it is still obsolete, would remove all the stamina mods from the table(that most people do not use over ability improving mods), would make parkour far more interesting, would remove the need to butt-slide every 5 seconds while sprinting...

 

Also

 

I do sincerely hope this thread gets more attention.

If it doesn't, I'll make sure to work out a constructive, concise, informative thread on the matter, like my thread on Backstabbing and Parrying.