Shotguns Should Not Have Damage Dropoff.

[Tsukinoki]

@Phantasmo
And then you realize that shotguns have tainted shell, and even if they didn't most shotguns dont have that bad of a spread at 50 meters and it would need to be increased by quite a bit to balance out having no falloff.

[Tarille]

There needs to be something that prevents shotguns from being the best weapon period, and currently without damage falloff there is nothing that prevents that.

 

The fact that Rifles outperform them at all ranges currently is something that prevents them from being the best weapons.

 

Only 2 shotgun primaries have a damage output that rivals some of the best Rifles.

That is the Phage (Without damage falloff, this would still have the limited range a la Synapse) and the Boar Prime (Slightly outperforms the Soma, underperforms the Boltor Prime - Though has spread that makes infinite range shots still not that great)

 

Heck, even without damage falloff the Detron and Drakgoon aren't outclassing other weapons.

 

As it stands now, Shotguns barely match Rifles and on top of that have damage falloff that hinders their ability to be actually used (Outside some abilities like invisibility or Link that allows you to get up close - Which also works for Rifles + Heavy Caliber)

 

This means that 2 options to make shotguns viable are:

 

Buff the damage so they can be close range powerhouses - See: Brakk (A powerhouse kept in check with limited range)

 

Remove falloff allowing them to be more user friendly - See: Drakgoon and Detron (2 shotguns with no falloff that do okay at range but are still matched or even outclassed by non-shotgun weaponry)

[Tsukinoki]

@Tarille
At the ranges that a boar prime deals full damage it outdamages the Boltor Prime in DPS by a small amount, and completely destroys it in burst damage.
And it seriously outclasses the soma in both of those categories.

So I would like to know where you're getting the idea that the Boar prime only "slightly outperforms the Soma, underperforms the boltor prime" when you are within its full damage zone, since it completely outperforms both, having 9K more burst damage than the boltor prime, 18K more burst damage than the Soma as well as having higher DPS than the boltor prime.  Meaning that if you can get close to the enemies its one of the most damaging weapons in the game.

[LtZefar]

I hate the damage drop off a lot and with Brakk we're talking about like 10 meters before it's utterly useless. Up close it kills stuff rather quickly but when you can stay on Sniper range with Soma and fire away in safety it's not all that fun to use a shotgun.

 

My most favorite weapon is the Strun Wraith(It's more powerful than Boar Prime too). I still use it and up close it out perform Soma right away but Soma has accuracy and critical shots which makes up for the up close burst.

 

If none of the normal pistols have no damage drop off why should a shotgun have it?

[DSpite]

And still, still too many people wanting to balance weapons based on damage output.

Shotguns should be being used to put that damage over an area while applying crits and procs to multiple targets. I'm fully aware that currently there is some weird per-pellet equations happening, and it would need a look at, but just upping effective DPS over distance is not a good answer.

[Tarille]

@Tarille

At the ranges that a boar prime deals full damage it outdamages the Boltor Prime in DPS by a small amount, and completely destroys it in burst damage.

And it seriously outclasses the soma in both of those categories.

So I would like to know where you're getting the idea that the Boar prime only "slightly outperforms the Soma, underperforms the boltor prime" when you are within its full damage zone, since it completely outperforms both, having 9K more burst damage than the boltor prime, 18K more burst damage than the Soma as well as having higher DPS than the boltor prime.  Meaning that if you can get close to the enemies its one of the most damaging weapons in the game.

 

http://dpsframe.com/

 

Boar Prime Max DPS - 17k Sustained 47k Burst

 

Soma Max DPS - 16k Sustained 28k Burst

 

Boltor Prime Max DPS - 22k Sustained 36k Burst

 

Boar Prime only outperforms with Burst DPS - Which for the most part is wasted. Low level things will die in 1-2 shots of a Soma/Boltor and so the huge burst damage isn't required. High level things will out last the burst and will need a high sustained damage output to deal with the multiple targets and to take out the strongest targets that soak up large quantities of damage.

 

This isn't even taking into account that in order to reach those numbers, the Boar takes a 60% spread deficit, making it require even closer range (Meanwhile on the rifle side, Soma takes a decent accuracy hit while the Boltor Prime with it's innately high accuracy goes down to average levels)

 

This also doesn't account for the ability for the rifles with their innately higher accuracy to get x2 and x4 damage multipliers from getting headshots (While spread can cause pellets to miss the head hitbox)

[DSpite]

I hate the damage drop off a lot and with Brakk we're talking about like 10 meters before it's utterly useless. Up close it kills stuff rather quickly but when you can stay on Sniper range with Soma and fire away in safety it's not all that fun to use a shotgun.

 

My most favorite weapon is the Strun Wraith(It's more powerful than Boar Prime too). I still use it and up close it out perform Soma right away but Soma has accuracy and critical shots which makes up for the up close burst.

 

If none of the normal pistols have no damage drop off why should a shotgun have it?

 

 

Because pistols fire a rifled bullet while a shotgun fires multiple non-aerodynamic stabilized rounds that are very inefficient against armor.

 

Would you be rather be hit by a thrown dart or by a thrown ball bearing at the same velocity? Pretty sure even if they were the same weight the ballbearing would just leave a bruise, and not a bleeding puncture mark.

 

EDIT: This whole discussion is rather pointless.

 

DE looked at how players were using shotguns, decided that they did not fit their definitions of "shotgun" at that and changed them. Just because we can find pros and cons is irrelevant.

Edited July 11, 2014 by DSpite

[LtZefar]

And still, still too many people wanting to balance weapons based on damage output.

Shotguns should be being used to put that damage over an area while applying crits and procs to multiple targets. I'm fully aware that currently there is some weird per-pellet equations happening, and it would need a look at, but just upping effective DPS over distance is not a good answer.

But shotguns won't dominate on all ranges because they still spread out a lot. That is what will balance those out.

 

If Hek is still accurate then so be it. It has 4 shots and had to be reloaded a lot. It was also the only shotgun to have a tight spray. This would only make Shotguns more viable later on.

 

 

Because pistols fire a rifled bullet while a shotgun fires multiple non-aerodynamic stabilized rounds that are very inefficient against armor.

 

Would you be rather be hit by a thrown dart or by a thrown ball bearing at the same velocity? Pretty sure even if they were the same weight the ballbearing would just leave a bruise, and not a bleeding puncture mark.

 

Pistols does not fire a Rifle bullet. They don't use Rifle ammo but pistol ammo. Pistols in real life has a bigger drop rate for bullets due to the small amount of gunpowder that is used in them. But pistols are 100% effective on all ranges in Warframe.

Edited July 11, 2014 by LtZefar

[Mokkania]

If you all want to tote realism:

 

http://www.bulletproofshop.com/Ballistic-Levels

 

We are not shooting monsters made of bare flesh or ballistic gel. Shotguns rounds have the crappiest damage penetration against anything with armor. "But we have futuristic shotguns!" you all say "Well, the bad guys also have futuristic armor" I say. So basically you can treat that page above as "Futuristic weapons AGAINST futuristic armor".

Isn't that why most shotguns have dominant impact damage?

 

So pick your poison:

-Damage fall off at range

-Massively increased spread at all ranges (and we would need to look at tainted shells values to see if it would need a slight nerf) and a small damage drop on top of that.

Or we could at least try then make further adjustments depending of the situation?

 

@Tarille

At the ranges that a boar prime deals full damage it outdamages the Boltor Prime in DPS by a small amount, and completely destroys it in burst damage.

And it seriously outclasses the soma in both of those categories.

If only a few shotguns outclass all the others weapons I don't see the problem outside of the fact that it will be a dominant shotgun instead of a rifle

 

And still, still too many people wanting to balance weapons based on damage output.

Shotguns should be being used to put that damage over an area while applying crits and procs to multiple targets. I'm fully aware that currently there is some weird per-pellet equations happening, and it would need a look at, but just upping effective DPS over distance is not a good answer.

I'm also interested in others solutions besides that if that's what you mean.

[(PSN)Magician_NG]

Keep the dropoff damage, but give shotguns a damage buff.

 

Shotguns are suppose to be superior to rifles in close quarters.

[Neo3602]

@LtZefar he said Rifled bullet not rifle bullet, its where a gun has spiral grooves in the barrel that cause the bullet to spin and be more accurate at range and even though pistols use a smaller amount of gunpowder its going to be concentrated in one projectile where in a shot gun the force from the powder exploding is spread over a number of pellets which, unlike pistol rounds, are not aerodynamic.

[Azawarau]

Naw, the only mention of "realism" is just as you mentioned for video games... Shottie are awesome close, rifles are awesome far. It is an easy way to make distinction 

The way i see it

 

Rifles lowest damage but highest utility distance accuracy and such

 

Shotguns should have much more damage in exchange for higher spread and lower range

 

Not so low that theyre impractical though

 

Melee should be the highest damage in exchange for having to face tank but at the same time it probably shouldnt since it does have quite a bit of survivability added to it

[MirageKnight]

What about tripling existing pellet counts, removing damage fall-off altogether, and relying completely on pellet spread factor to make shotguns weaker / inefficient at long range?

[LtZefar]

@LtZefar he said Rifled bullet not rifle bullet, its where a gun has spiral grooves in the barrel that cause the bullet to spin and be more accurate at range and even though pistols use a smaller amount of gunpowder its going to be concentrated in one projectile where in a shot gun the force from the powder exploding is spread over a number of pellets which, unlike pistol rounds, are not aerodynamic.

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=mythbusters+bullet+dropped+vs+bullet+fired

 

That gives you an idea on how quick a pistol round drops. Shotgun pellets use more gunpowder and will travel longer. It doesn't matter if there are several pellets. The full force is still going to push all of them away.

[TheDandyLion]

I feel the need to point out that real life shotguns have an effective range of at least 100 feet. Of course, since our idea of shotguns is based entirely on the morphed archetype of videogames, that actually sounds odd to us. Thing like a 5ft range in Halo are just wrong wrong wrong wrong. Like many other people have said, the spread of the shotguns themselves should be the diminishing factor at range, not the arbitrary distance number. I am not saying this for dps balance reasons either as much as it is just the general feel of the weapons. After putting max forma on my Brakk, I am actually finding the Detron to feel much better and be much more enjoyable as a weapon despite having significantly lower dps at close range. It doesn't give you the feeling that your shots are useless at medium range though.

[dashashou]

damage drop off is  in a word un-fun 

 

never mid that it acts as a limiter  or a balance point  it  makes the shotgun not fun  and too limited

never mind that shot gun ammo has always  been an issue 

 

good points to the op, too bad that  as core game play  it won't be touched /addressed till maby 15   or later 

[Flackenstien]

I don't think the falloff should be removed entirely.
I say we lessen it, (at varying levels per shotgun), and make mods to reduce the falloff. (Including dual mods.)

Shotguns in real life work at range, yes.. but a shotgun's role in videogames is that of a close-range powerhouse.

 

The shotgun pistols could use some falloff too, for the sake of consistency. (Although, the fact that secondary shotguns are still 100% considered pistols, as far as game mechanics are concerned, could cause a few issues with adding falloff to them, seeing as falloff seems to be applied weapon-class wide, rather than to guns individually. Having them be considered shotguns, and use shotgun mods instead could be a cool and simple fix, but then people would cry like how they cry about Sentinels not being able to duplicate matter.. Not saying this should happen, fyi.)

 

For people who say "but the thing to weaken them at range should be the spread".. if they had no falloff, shotguns with very little spread would dominate, especially when you can mod to lower the spread.

It's a better system when both falloff and spread are used to leash shotguns, this will be especially needed after U14 when DE gets around to buffing them (part of which could possibly be reduced falloff, and falloff mods, like I mentioned earlier).

 

Also, we could get mods that add power or utility, but increase the falloff rate, allowing for further customization.

TL;DR: Reduce falloff, and add mods to reduce it further.

Edited July 11, 2014 by Flackenstien

[TheDandyLion]

I don't think the falloff should be removed entirely.

I say we lessen it, (at varying levels per shotgun), and make mods to reduce the falloff. (Including dual mods.)

Shotguns in real life work at range, yes.. but a shotgun's role in videogames is that of a close-range powerhouse.

 

The shotgun pistols could use some falloff too, for the sake of consistency. (Although, the fact that secondary shotguns are still 100% considered pistols, as far as game mechanics are concerned, could cause a few issues with adding falloff to them, seeing as falloff seems to be applied weapon-class wide, rather than to guns individually. Having them be considered shotguns, and use shotgun mods instead could be a cool and simple fix, but then people would cry like how they cry about Sentinels not being able to duplicate matter.. Not saying this should happen, fyi.)

 

For people who say "but the thing to weaken them at range should be the spread".. if they had no falloff, shotguns with very little spread would dominate, especially when you can mod to lower the spread.

It's a better system when both falloff and spread are used to leash shotguns, this will be especially needed after U14 when DE gets around to buffing them (part of which could possibly be reduced falloff, and falloff mods, like I mentioned earlier).

 

Also, we could get mods that add power or utility, but increase the falloff rate, allowing for further customization.TL;DR: Reduce falloff, and add mods to reduce it further.

Making mods to change core gameplay mechanics rather than just changing the mechanics is a bad idea. That is not the role of mods.

[Nagisawa]

damage drop off is  in a word un-fun 

 

never mid that it acts as a limiter  or a balance point  it  makes the shotgun not fun  and too limited

never mind that shot gun ammo has always  been an issue 

 

good points to the op, too bad that  as core game play  it won't be touched /addressed till maby 15   or later 

It's not just that, it's that there's not enough of a spread.  At medium range with a good shotgun you should be hitting 3-4 reasonably clumped targets, but you're not.  You're just hitting one.

 

Why do you think the Brakk was so nasty before the dropoff was introduced?  Because all the pellets kept hitting ONE target, often killing it in one blow at ANY range.  It also doesn't help that the rooms in Warframe are incredibly TINY which makes Shotguns perfect for that sort of work.

[dashashou]

It's not just that, it's that there's not enough of a spread.  At medium range with a good shotgun you should be hitting 3-4 reasonably clumped targets, but you're not.  You're just hitting one.

 

Why do you think the Brakk was so nasty before the dropoff was introduced?  Because all the pellets kept hitting ONE target, often killing it in one blow at ANY range.  It also doesn't help that the rooms in Warframe are incredibly TINY which makes Shotguns perfect for that sort of work.

 

/agree

[Flackenstien]

Making mods to change core gameplay mechanics rather than just changing the mechanics is a bad idea. That is not the role of mods.

I agree, but.. What does that have to do with my post? AT ALL?

My post was saying to lessen the BASE damage falloff AND add mods for people who want to lessen it FURTHER.

This would also open the possibility for mods that increase how quickly your damage falls off as a cost for a powerful effect or damage boost.

Edited July 12, 2014 by Flackenstien

[LtZefar]

It's not just that, it's that there's not enough of a spread.  At medium range with a good shotgun you should be hitting 3-4 reasonably clumped targets, but you're not.  You're just hitting one.

 

Why do you think the Brakk was so nasty before the dropoff was introduced?  Because all the pellets kept hitting ONE target, often killing it in one blow at ANY range.  It also doesn't help that the rooms in Warframe are incredibly TINY which makes Shotguns perfect for that sort of work.

 

How long is the distance of a Medium target for you?

 

Because my Strun Wraith hits plenty of targets on medium range. Also if you want a shotgun to spread out it's bullet so that it can hit each side of a barn just 10 feet away then you should stop commenting. Nothing is more damaging to a shotgun than having it have a ludicrous high spread. It makes no sense for it to have it.

[taiiat]

as in the past, i know the falloff is there for a reason. and i approve of it being there, in principle.

 

however, the falloff is quite harsh on all Shotguns, as they largely already have fairly bleh Damage, Accuracy, Status Chance, Crit Chance, Magazine Size, Ammo Pool, Reload Speed, Rate of Fire..... yeah.

 

Marksman Shotguns are a thing, and there's no good reason to class Shotguns as only useful in 'barrel inside face' range. some will spread low caliber pellets in a wide area, some will pile high caliber pellets in a small area.

 

so, Shotguns should still be acceptable at medium range, there's no reason that all Shotguns shouldn't be. if most of the pellets is going to be missing, the ones that do hit could atleast do a decent amount of Damage, so that your Weapon isn't a powerhouse at one point, and useless two steps further away.

the way i see it, the falloff trend Hek currently has, the rest of the Shotguns should have as a baseline(not accounting for any that have or would have their own trends to make them more unique), and Hek having a new trend that trails off slower than it does currently. yes, that will mean Hek is fairly Powerful out to Medium Range, and that's fine, that's what that particular Shotgun is for. that's what it's good at. so we shouldn't not let it do the one role it has.

 

50 meters is rather far for a shotgun ist it?

it really depends on shot type. Slugs obviously have pretty good range, but even something like Tri-Ball has a low enough pellet count to be surprisingly accurate.

 

especially if you have a Closed Choke Shotgun or one that you can tweak.

[MadKirby]

I'm partial.

 

Sure, here I go talk about the laws of physics in videogames, but.. That's how shotguns work!

BUT it doesn't mean that enemies should mistake a buckshot for a fistfull of gravel thrown at them at a distance of more than 15 meters. The damage falloff doesn't even affect ALL shotguns (Bronco, Detron), but the ones that are affected? Oh boy, might aswell call my Tigris a melee weapon, right.

 

But, removing falloff wouldn't work. I hope that someone else remembers when Hek was the king.

(EDIT: Hey, Liacu! Down here! Those were the times, right?)

It had close to no spread, and no damage falloff. There was no reason to NOT use it, so.. I'd say the falloff could be made a lot more comfortable, but spread could increase in general too.

Hek could be that accurate if it is using slugs like in battlefield for example. We need weapons to be different in use, not only by looks. Not all shotguns should be close only weapons. Otherwise everyone would use only Boar Prime because of its pure DPS...

[MadKirby]

but a shotgun's role in videogames is that of a close-range powerhouse

Melee 2.0 is here...

No need to use ammo to shoot enemies at melee range...

No need to waste primary slot to shoot enemies only at melee range...

Dual Ichor wrecks any shotgun

(at least for now)