New Ui Feedback From Ui/ux Designer: Visually Nicer, Slower To Use, More Clicks To Do The Same Task

[MeduSalem]

@ KriLL3: I guess they fixed the part about the Mod-UI. The black top/bottom things are gone now... at least for me. Can't say for others though... seems like they fixed that either with 14.0.2 or 14.0.3

 

 

 

Another thing they should adjust about the Navigation menu is... the perspective... the camera-angle is to low... they should raise it a little bit so it would be more of a "top-down" view on the circle... then the circle wouldn't be compressed to an oval. Then the planets wouldn't overlap that much anymore and there would be room for the permanent lables on each planet. There's enough space on the top and the bottom of the screen currently even on 16:9 ratios so they could raise the camera with no problems.

 

Probably the same thing... with a "raised" camera-angle could help about the mission-selection screen too.... if we'd be able to see behind the planet at least half the problems would be gone as we would not need to rotate the planet as much anymore. Still doesn't fix the problem that one can't read the mission nodes without bending your head.

Edited July 20, 2014 by MeduSalem

[Hisophonic]

+1 this thread

 

Better than most threads that are discussing the UI.

[jnka]

 

Frankly, UI design in videogames is generally really bad, and pretty bad for enterprise software as well.  Look how many iterations Microsoft Word has gone through and the interface is annoying and clunky in so many ways.  No offense to the OP, but I'm starting to think UI designers have some other sensory organs besides eyeballs.  ;)

 

The reason why the design or word seems clunky at first sight is because you're looking at a program with a thousand functions and tools. But once you drill down to it, using word to accomplish everyday tasks is comfortable either with the old UI or with the ribbon UI. But work a bit different, but from a HID perspective they're both very functional, with the ribbon being even more functional once you get to power user levels.

 

Warframe on the other hand has comparatively few functions which you need to do in the menu. As such they all ought to be very accessible, 

 

To make an example - imagine jumping between codex and arsenal.

 

Old UI - quickly do so over persistant always visible icons. (comparable to word by switching between file and edit tabs for instance)

New UI - If in one menu, fully exit, walk up a ramp and enter a second menu. Or exit over the esc menu and drill trough multiple submenus to get where you want.

 

That's not even touching close to all the other issues starting with how the new menu in a lot of areas tells you vastly less information than before, causes nausea and in some cases is less interesting. (the old mission select screen where all the players showed up in action poses as an example)

[VectorWolf]

Don't know if anyone pointed that here, but there is mouse acceleration present when browsing menus, and it has to go! There is no place for mouse acceleration in games.

Over all I like the new UI. When they shrink those windows, and turn off MA, it will be awesome tho.

Edited July 20, 2014 by VectorWolf

[Egg_Chen]

Think I have already given my +1 to the OP, but couldn't help adding this:

 

White text on a white transparent background with white / light coloured surfaces everywhere?

 

Instant headache from trying to work out who dropped the new stance mod in the codex, because the popup text is illegible.

So I head off to the wiki instead, proof enough that the UI is not fit for purpose.

[Awazx]

This is obviously much better. I would give you the highest credit for that but it has less to do with your brilliance and more with DE either not caring or not having the right priorities. Because I simply can't understand how a professional developer could possibly end up with what we have now after months of developement when random people on the internet (no offense Leaser ;-) ) can come up with something vastly superior in one day.

 

You said word for word what I think. It is incomprehensible that [DE] to make these mistakes.

[KriLL3]

I simply can't understand how a professional developer could possibly end up with what we have now after months of developement when random people on the internet (no offense Leaser ;-) ) can come up with something vastly superior in one day.

 

Best reason I can think of is that the gimmick of the turntable and wobbling projection somehow took precedent over basic UI/UX fundamentals, I've seen it happen before, and done it myself before, you got an idea that you think is really cool, so you roll with it and it's quite fancy, but at some point down the line it's obvious to everyone but yourself that it's weighing the rest down not enhancing it, the turntable layout of the missions is a really cool visual, but if you take a couple steps back you realize text on something that spins in that fashion is a very bad idea since it's unreadable unless at the bottom, it's a neat idea that ultimately makes the UI worse, there are some basics of UI/UX you shouldn't mess with when dealing with something that's going to be used by a lot of people frequently, if you make an artsy site meant to give the odd visitor a trippy experience break all the rules in the book, play with it, make pages scroll horizontally and make a period ending a sentance sprout into a tree when you scroll etc, go nuts. If you're making reddit/gmail/etc you can't indulge in that, you need to make it fast and easy to use.

[Brasten]

Best reason I can think of....

 

Which is logical, and shows very clearly some missed direction on the party of the project leads. Although we do know Steve has a tendency to be distracted by shiny things.

 

What really got lost is what I think many of us were expecting from the Liset. That it would be a secondary interaction point, much the way Normandy is in the Mass Effects or other games with Role-Playing hubs

 

I think the core goes back to what StrahlTiger ( https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/263785-new-ui-feedback-from-uiux-designer-visually-nicer-slower-to-use-more-clicks-to-do-the-same-task/?view=findpost&p=3087810 ) and Nightfallen ( https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/263785-new-ui-feedback-from-uiux-designer-visually-nicer-slower-to-use-more-clicks-to-do-the-same-task/?view=findpost&p=3087351 ) said. That we would get some kind of Kneeling Pad that would be the primary "Pro" UI with static elements similar to our older one. Maybe even we could opt to start from instead of be dumped into the Liset "mission" (movement controls).

 

Kinda sounding similar to Windows 8 ( gosh its wonderful modern example of how you can make power users mad by moving everything 2 or 3 clicks deeper into the UI than it was). Choose between staying Kneeling (Pro) or Stand-Up (Immersion) at start up as an Option.

 

Outside of the Navigation menu (which needs major help), most of the other menus should be in state they can be un-bent, returned to a flat ornamentation, and many elements down scaled or merged (Mod screen getting back Transmutation, Fusion, Sell, and Collection as one whole screen). After all they are all running as .SWF Flash files and are likely getting twisted dynamically by the Evolution Engine itself.

=====

 

Long term. I think the lead UI designer has a fetish for swaying screens. He did exactly this with the new HUD UI. Having it wiggle about on screen. DE needs to check their usage stats on how many people have DISABLED that particularly feature. Maybe that'll dump some cold water in his pants. Break it down by Hours Played.

 

Someone needs to make him watch this on a loop every morning when he get comes into work for a month. Especially the part about head bob.

 

Edited July 20, 2014 by Brasten

[VectorWolf]

They should also fix chat window, so I won't enter planets when switching tabs in it.

[KriLL3]

Visual aid why the turn-table layout for missions is a bad idea:

 

 

That's a chore to navigate plain and simple.

[Hisophonic]

Visual aid why the turn-table layout for missions is a bad idea:

 

 

That's a chore to navigate plain and simple.

You also can't tell how many keys of each you have so you kinda have to guess that the one which is gone you have no more keys of.

 

Nevermind it must have been fixed.

Edited July 20, 2014 by Hisophonic

[KriLL3]

Yeah they fixed that at least, it's easy to fix stuff like that, the basic layout making no sense is harder.

[Isaard]

Ive stolen a pic from another thread to make a comparism

 

This is the old menu:

 

 

When i see is i could cry. Fast access to every feature. No clumpy, whirling, navigation in the ship. Fast access to every Altert or one click to the latest news. Quick change of online status. And so much more. Tears... R.I.P.

Just had to add my +1 to this topic, thank you for the wonderful post OP.

If the nav console in the ship just pulled up this old star map it would be a massive improvement. 

As of right now looking sadly at this screenshot is the closest I'll get to playing Warframe. I love the new player experience and the ship, there are some really great additions to the game but the UI really is a gamebreaker for me. Being cut off from so much information and functionality, while having so much extra time added to ingame tasks has ruined my player experience. I want to play Warframe right now but the thought of struggling with the UI is actually keeping me from launching the game and instead I'm on the forums.

[DocBlood]

A very excellent thread. As a Warframe player on both the PC and PS4 I can tell you that the pre-14 mission selection on the console was a real pain o the behind to navigate with a controller. The 14 UI is not yet available in the PS4 so I can't comment on whether it will be easier. One very important thing I miss with the 14 UI is being able to quickly tell what connects to what mission wise. Most importantly planet to planet. With the pre -14 I could fast track to a particular planet if I wanted to quickly get to a boss to farm. Not so much now (under statement). We'll see how this plays on the PS4... someday.

Edited July 20, 2014 by DocBlood

[BL4CKL1STED]

As another UX/UI designer I totally agree. I was worried about this stuff from the livestreams and I see from your screenshots that it's all true. I actually can't login to the game, connectivity issues =/

 

Look to Dead Space's inventory and menus for examples of in-world UI done perfectly.

In world UI can never be perfect. It's always an annoying UX feel when its presented to 'your character' first rather than to the player.

[MeduSalem]

@ KriLL3: I've got another idea on how to make running up to a console and accessing it a little bit more easier as well...

 

Currently you have to press "X" (or whatever key you've bound it to) to bring up the menus... but I think it could also be done with the Left Mouse Button... you'd just have to be close enough and if you hover over the console/machine with your "crosshair" then you could click it with your Left Mouse button to bring the menu up as well.

 

The same could basically be done within the missions too to bring up the Hacking-Panels as long as your crosshair is over the panel... oO

 

I know it might not be that comfortable for PS4/Xbone users because they have a much harder time in aiming, but I'd leave the press-"X"-method in as an alternative... while PC users can chose to use the Left-Mouse button while close enough or to press "X".

Edited July 20, 2014 by MeduSalem

[kultuu]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

This is a difference in direction, you are thinking ease of use is king, where to us immersion is king. You could certainly make the argument that the foundry information could be easier to read as an excel sheet, but it's not what we are going for.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Im going to be rude, it amazes me how delusional you guys are, WARFRAME is just a LOBBY third person shooter, its nothing more than that and will never be , its not a open world MMO or rpg  where "immersion"  makes some sense and even then some games like that dont pull the "immersion" card on you with god damn awful UI´s

 

You guys in DE need to come back to earth and do a reality check if you want the game to be more than  a mediocre  but pretty TPS.  peace out im out!

Edited July 20, 2014 by kultuu

[vaugahn]

 

Im going to be rude, it amazes me how delusional you guys are, WARFRAME is just a LOBBY third person shooter, its nothing more than that and will never be , its not a open world MMO or rpg , where "immersion"  makes some sense and even then some games like that dont pull the "immersion" card on you with god damn awful UI´s

 

You guys in DE need to come back to earth and do a reality check if you want the game to be more than  a mediocre  but pretty TPS.  peace out im out!

 

 

 

This is hilariously wrong to the point of near insanity. You realize that the game is in progress, and they're tying to create more immersion? The old menus were essentially placeholders, and these ones are too.

[KriLL3]

Hey KriLL3, Thanks for the feedback. Few comments

 

Somehow the forum just now told me about this post, sorry I missed it somehow.

 

We did make a few tests with all options visible at once, and it was just overwhelming to read 17 options at once, the accessibility needs evolve as the play time increases, a seasoned player can look at 17 options and find what he wants with no issue, a player that has only gone through Vor's prize, would be overwhelmed by that.

 

 

WIthout pressing esc you don't have a cursor, clicking isn't an option while you are running around.

 

I think the solution is to nest them into groups (visually) they don't all need to be identical large text boxes, inbox can be a clickable inbox icon (like the one showing you have messages) in the corner etc, or restore some to their old location as a top bar, what I meant by not needing to click the menu button/esc was in an already open UI, like arsenal, mods etc, before the top menu bar way always visible above the current UI you were in making switching "pages" a one click affair, now it's 2, or 3. You obviously need esc still in-game to access the menu.

 

I think a lot of our UI complaints would be solved by restoring the top menu from U13, make access to any part of the UI a single click from any other part of the UI, there is a top bar with your profile icon, credits, platinum and boosters already, could fit the arsenal, foundry, mods, incubator, market, options, profile (click profile icon) in there, social stuff (friends, clan, inbox) could sit on their own like before. Would greatly speed up navigation of the UI.

 

 

I totally agree with that, it's hard to find a specific planet if you are looking for it, argument against labels was that it was too crowded, newer players are introduced slowly to planets so the need for labels was less. In any case, I agree with you, but I lost that argument internally.

 

I can see the argument there, it does get a bit crowded perhaps, though a setting to toggle permanent labels on or off would perhaps be a good middle ground? If the blue bubble around the planets were removed (could keep it around earth to designate the atmosphere perhaps?) they'd be visually more distinct, as would small size differences. Main problem really is the high number of planets to choose from with no good distinction between them, before their location in the solar system model picked them apart easily, but lined up in a circle they become a lot less distinct, perhaps group them? Multiple circles one inside the other? then you at least have different "layers" to differentiate them. If they were made a bit more circular in layout instead of oval 3 or more circles would fit nicely.

 

Another one where there's division internally, some people think that it should work like an open world map where you browse around for the activities, some people want a straight forward list or the world state like http://deathsnacks.com/wf/ that might still happen.

 

I think having the list back where you can quickly access ongoing events and alerts and invasions doesn't detract from the "browsing" quality of the navigation as is, you can still browse the navigation if you prefer, but for people with a more "power user" bent that's infuriating, if I see a tweet/deathsnacks notification about something I want that's why I opened WF and what I wanted to do, not find it first.

 

The navigation console already has a floating text box with the alerts listed, some way to point at and click a specific one in that box would work.

 

This is a difference in direction, you are thinking ease of use is king, where to us immersion is king. You could certainly make the argument that the foundry information could be easier to read as an excel sheet, but it's not what we are going for.

 

I don't mind visual flair, but the wobbling projection UI has some big problems, I can't see all of it at once, I can't see some of it period, my warframe is covers part of it no matter what I do, if I mouse over something to the right my warframe covers 1/5~ of the total UI making oversight very difficult, having the cursor on the left half (which seems to happen by default) obscures the scrollbar so I don't know if I can scroll the page or how much, and the motion itself makes me feel ill. (I suffer from simulation sickness quite easily which is why I had the HUD sway turned off).

 

An option to turn the motion off would be nice, and having it all fit on screen at once would be even nicer, with my warframe not blocking the UI: http://i.imgur.com/ZmL3RmH.jpg that's as much as I can see of the sorting options (still looks like that except the black gradient has been fixed).

 

I think a version that's a bit smaller so it all fits on the screen at once with optional motion would still preserve the effect while being a lot less nausea inducing and annoying to use.

 

A few of the things you mention are bugs, like visibility in mods(fixed today), void key count, joining the dojo (fixed yesterday), how many you have of something in the foundry (made the fix for this today will likely be in the hotfix), and a couple other things.

 

Yeah I realized some of those things are bugs, though there is plenty of features I mentioned being missing which don't seem like bugs, like foundry items only showing that you have enough resources to build something, not your total, which is useful information, right now I only know if I can make 1 or none of something, if I I could see how many resources I had in total I could see that I have enough to make say 4 of one thing, or 1 of one thing and still have enough materials to make a second thing using some of the same resources, I don't know that now, I need to check the inventory to figure that out. Like I was making mirage parts earlier, and I was unsure if I had enough circuits/polymers to make those parts and make some gear that I also wanted, I had to open the inventory to figure it out, not ideal, old foundry UI I could see that much quicker.

 

And you haven't said anything about my feedback about the mission selection UI, it's a neat visual, but ultimately having only 25%~ of the text displayed easily legible at one time is very weird, and I find it very mouse unfriendly, the scrollwheel hops around the planet in one mission increments but it's like left/right arrow, it jumps gaps in the "layers" which isn't intuitive, since the mousewheel is only one direction (well most people don't have those tilting mousewheels or trackballs) having it move one axis of two axis design is pretty wonky, would make more sense if it rotated the planet evenly, yes you can use the right mouse button for that but the scrollwheel is a more established method for moving content around.

 

Also you can't scroll the mission rewards while in-mission, only works when you return to the liset. (Can't scroll the rewards while entering the extraction ship, or during the game in the menu before you complete the mission.)

 

I don't like how the mod UI makes you pick task before you're allowed to view your mods, this causes very bad flow, in U13 I could browse my mods and come across something I wanted to fuse, so I fused it, or across some I figured I could transmute so I transmuted them, now if I spot a mod I want to fuse while in the transfusion UI I need to back out and go to fusing, then find the mod again, it's a lot less intuitive than a main list of mods with the option to fuse, transmute, sell as needed.

 

Again, thanks for taking the time to write this up, it's great to see you guys care enough to spend the time thinking about this.

 

No problem, and I realize I was a bit hard on you guys, I know the UI isn't "finalized" but I still think there are concerns that can be voiced about it, it's after all a game UI which necessitates quite a lot of flair, but I feel like a lot of usability has been needlessly compromised, I think it's perfectly possible to make a visually interesting and dynamic UI that still caters to a "power user" crowd.

 

I think the main cause for this large gap in usability focus is because I and many others here play the game a fair bit, my profile says 1380 hours so far, when you spend that much time in a game ease of use and clicks per task become very important, if you're sitting in an office looking at a UI you're making you tend to shift more towards visual flair than usability because you're not being asked to navigate the UI quickly, while if a tester had to time themselves using the new UI vs the old UI it should be clear it's universally slower to use with more clicks needed to perform the same tasks.

 

I think the new HUD is a good example of something visually nicer than the old HUD but still just as user friendly, or even more so in some ways.

Edited July 20, 2014 by KriLL3

[Grinbringer]

I agree with OP. I'll just add a couple of comments in my own worlds.

 

* New fancy UI would look great in a movie/trailer/video, but actually using it yourself is not as easy as it could and should be.

* It does not add to immersion, it takes away from immersion. I'm constantly aware that I'm not in the world of space ninjas, but I'm outside looking at the back of someone who is in that world and is blocking the information on UI panels that I want to see.

* I see where a button is and I know how much I need to move my mouse to get there. Oops, UI moved/panned away while I was moving my mouse. It's bad usability.

Edited July 20, 2014 by Grinbringer

[vaugahn]

No problem, and I realize I was a bit hard on you guys, I know the UI isn't "finalized" but I still think there are concerns that can be voiced about it, it's after all a game UI which necessitates quite a lot of flair, but I feel like a lot of usability has been needlessly compromised, I think it's perfectly possible to make a visually interesting and dynamic UI that still caters to a "power user" crowd.

 

I think the main cause for this large gap in usability focus is because I and many others here play the game a fair bit, my profile says 1380 hours so far, when you spend that much time in a game ease of use and clicks per task become very important, if you're sitting in an office looking at a UI you're making you tend to shift more towards visual flair than usability because you're not being asked to navigate the UI quickly, while if a tester had to time themselves using the new UI vs the old UI it should be clear it's universally slower to use with more clicks needed to perform the same tasks.

 

I think the new HUD is a good example of something visually nicer than the old HUD but still just as user friendly, or even more so in some ways.

 

All of my +1s for this part. Nobody's going to dispute that this update needs work, but the "worst update ever/DE sucks/quitting the game" threads are just dividing the community up and making it harder for the devs to find good feedback. Excellent job.

[Methanoid]

personally i dont want immersion in a menu i want accessibility, speed and ease of use, we dont have that now, i just want to turn the entire "ship" and new ui stuff off, i dont feel "immersed" smashing ESC and clicking multiple nested menus and getting annoyed the more (or less now i just cant be bothered at all) i use it.

[vaugahn]

personally i dont want immersion in a menu i want accessibility, speed and ease of use, we dont have that now, i just want to turn the entire "ship" and new ui stuff off, i dont feel "immersed" smashing ESC and clicking multiple nested menus and getting annoyed the more (or less now i just cant be bothered at all) i use it.

 

This is a difference in direction, you are thinking ease of use is king, where to us immersion is king. You could certainly make the argument that the foundry information could be easier to read as an excel sheet, but it's not what we are going for.

 

I strongly believe the new menus can be just as functional as the old ones. We know DE can make a good menu, we just need to give them the feedback they need to do it again.

[Varzy]

 

I totally agree with that, it's hard to find a specific planet if you are looking for it, argument against labels was that it was too crowded, newer players are introduced slowly to planets so the need for labels was less. In any case, I agree with you, but I lost that argument internally.

 

 

 

Another one where there's division internally, some people think that it should work like an open world map where you browse around for the activities, some people want a straight forward list or the world state like http://deathsnacks.com/wf/ that might still happen.

 

For the former, why not give us an option to toggle the planet names on and off? Same with showing what resources are on the planet.

For the latter, I don't get why internal division really means anything in this case because players actually demanded a list of alerts and invasions back when invasions were first introduced. "Browsing around" is very frustrating because those alerts or invasions might not be something we're interested in running.

 

In-planet, we also should have some option to switch directly to the next planet in the cycle.

[Methanoid]

its just a bit silly that they consider immersion king on a feature (ships) that is nothing more than a menu that serves to slow everything down and aggrivate you every step of the way, i dont know about everyone else but i use menus to get somewhere quickly and efficiently, i dont stare at the shiney sparkly stuff for 15mins thinking, "wow this menu looks pretty, lets just sit here not playing anything and admire the view".

 

like eve onlines captains quarters, give us the option to turn off the ship and give us a normal menu, give me a static screen of my frame sat in the ship staring out into space (immersion???) with some menus similar to U13 and i like many others would be happy.

 

ships currently serve no useful purpose whatsoever, i dont want to be in one, i dont need one for anything because they dont do anything, they should have been like the dojo, go there IF your interested.