Ammo Nerf Protest

[PlayGooYa]

^

but thats the thing.....most people are using templates of other games and imposing those game styles onto warframe....when it is and should not be like other games

 

 

the uniqueness of warframe is getting stripped away day by day by people who have never made video games...and only those that have played the same generic game type

 

You both sound like you're making arguments out of subjective emotion.

"Uniqueness"? What does that even mean?

It's a third-person shooter with RPG-lite elements thrown in. Are bottomless rocket magazines really the thing making it "unique"?

Edited August 14, 2014 by PlayGooYa

[R3DBelmont456]

I can attest to this, even though I have not been a warframe player since Day 1, I can definitely say that DE is trying to Cater to TOO many people. What happens when you mix all the colors of the rainbow and more... You get Black, one big black stain, that neither looks pretty nor is fit for everything anyway, so people just leave... if this game is to survive for another 3 years then drastic changes like this need to stop, possibly the Devs themselves need to test play the changes they wish to make for every situation possible and determine what changes need to be done from there instead of having to let us deal with the mess they make... FYI, bottomless rockets just make the game more fun to a lot of people, is that bad? No... is it balanced, Far from it, but is it really BAD for a PvE game? I cannot really say that it is... for years I played DOOM using nothing but the Double Barrel shotgun, the rocket launcher and BFG 9000, and at times I wanna have a good laugh so I enable sv_infiniteammo 1 and sv_fastweapons 2 just to see my rocket launcher and machingun become infinite "DOOM cannons" *pun pun* or sometimes I liked so see Demons infighting so I'd just summon like 10 cyber-demons and spider-masterminds and watch them duke it out while in a corner eating popcorn I'd be... IN warframe I always had a good laugh detonating my angstrum and watching the corpses fly in the comfort of my own nest... but now I cannot do that anymore. Sure it may not be a viable play style to you... but neither is burst firing a machinegun for hours and hours, or now with the flux rifle buff... holding the shot button on a single target for hours and hours and HOURS~!!! to me at least... if you like doing that then more power to ya... but why crap on what I have fun with just cause you don't like it...

Edited August 14, 2014 by R3DBelmont456

[vaugahn]

I can attest to this, even though I have not been a warframe player since Day 1, I can definitely say that DE is trying to Cater to TOO many people. What happens when you mix all the colors of the rainbow and more... You get Black, one big black stain, that neither looks pretty nor is fit for everything anyway, so people just leave... if this game is to survive for another 3 years then drastic changes like this need to stop, possibly the Devs themselves need to test play the changes they wish to make for every situation possible and determine what changes need to be done from there instead of having to let us deal with the mess they make...

 

Uh, the reason we're playing this game is to deal with messes. That's kind of the whole point of open beta. 

[PlayGooYa]

I can attest to this, even though I have not been a warframe player since Day 1, I can definitely say that DE is trying to Cater to TOO many people. What happens when you mix all the colors of the rainbow and more... You get Black, one big black stain, that neither looks pretty nor is fit for everything anyway, so people just leave... if this game is to survive for another 3 years then drastic changes like this need to stop, possibly the Devs themselves need to test play the changes they wish to make for every situation possible and determine what changes need to be done from there instead of having to let us deal with the mess they make...

 

The only people who aren't pleased are the ones who think explosives should trivialize content.

 

They're putting ammo constraints on a gun in a shooter. It's kind of a logical and intuitive place to inject challenge.

As stated, Mutation mods are obviously meant to enable spray-and-pray because spray-and-pray is not meant to be default style. Being able to spam without worry is a huge advantage.

Edited August 14, 2014 by PlayGooYa

[TashaPrime]

People need to get over it. This is a game balance pass (BALANCE). It has been needed for a long long time.

 

Any weapon that deals these massive amounts of damage needs to have negative trade off's to balance it for the game. 

 

Maybe we as players need to learn how to be better Tenno / Space Ninjas, and learn the skills necessary to use everything in the game as a viable weapon even to the point of kicking an enemy to death if we have to. 

 

My point fellow Tenno is this we always have to remember that Warframe is an open beta game. Nothing and I mean nothing is set in stone and anything may be change at any time. This is part of the beast for open beta anything. And as for the low ammo you may have to take off one coveted mod to allow for ammo mutation.

 

Use the Game-Mechanics to your advantage Tenno and move on with the game.

[R3DBelmont456]

Uh, the reason we're playing this game is to deal with messes. That's kind of the whole point of open beta. 

Uhh technically we don't have to... back in the day Games were shipped fully complete and the fact that you have to pay 1000s of dollars for prime access, cosmetics and the like only tells me that  THIS Open Beta is being milked for all the money it's worth... so when it's finally released fully, then they'll have no reason to worry if the game no longer has a player base because they've already made all the money they need to... Stop being deceived already as that "OPEN BETA" excuse is getting old, REALLY old already...

Edited August 14, 2014 by R3DBelmont456

[zavienh5]

my castanas are useless for long runs

[sekushiiandee]

You both sound like you're making arguments out of subjective emotion.

"Uniqueness"? What does that even mean?

It's a third-person shooter with RPG-lite elements thrown in. Are bottomless rocket magazines really the thing making it "unique"?

^

i suppose you can say i am taking a subjective view on this....being that i am one of the founders of this game, i prefer that some aspects of this game not reflect other games

 

being that it is a sci-fi space ninja game....it is possible that technology allows for ammunition that defies normal launcher logic....penta capsules are not normal launcher type ammunition...they are much smaller than rockets

 

the argument about the size of boltor ammunition could play into this as well....if launchers are getting heat for it...then so should boltor prime because it is not possible to fit all those bolts into that tiny little gun

^but i am straying away from the current argument

 

but yes i do want to keep this game different from the others.....sci-fi and space means that there should be technological innovation...so it could possibly be true that these weapons can hold more ammo

 

if you argue about launchers and their ammo cap....then why not argue about the technology of the orokin? why not argue about the logic of tech in terms of warframes? why point the finger and say that launchers break logic because it has too much ammo, when so many others things in this game does so?

Edited August 14, 2014 by sekushiiandee

[R3DBelmont456]

People need to get over it. This is a game balance pass (BALANCE). It has been needed for a long long time.

 

Any weapon that deals these massive amounts of damage needs to have negative trade off's to balance it for the game. 

 

Maybe we as players need to learn how to be better Tenno / Space Ninjas, and learn the skills necessary to use everything in the game as a viable weapon even to the point of kicking an enemy to death if we have to. 

 

My point fellow Tenno is this we always have to remember that Warframe is an open beta game. Nothing and I mean nothing is set in stone and anything may be change at any time. This is part of the beast for open beta anything. And as for the low ammo you may have to take off one coveted mod to allow for ammo mutation.

 

Use the Game-Mechanics to your advantage Tenno and move on with the game.

Why don't YOU learn the skills necessary to make the game more challenging for yourself while the rest of us enjoy the game for what it is, a Fast paced Shooter... this game is FAR from a Ninja simulator and based on what a lot of people say they don't even have a clue as to what a ninja is really supposed to do, they don't read Japanese History or lore enough to know that... And the fact that they continue to use that excuse for the game's difficulty is Baffling... If this game were to be a Ninja Simulator, it'd be Mastery Trial 9 for EVERY single mission, and getting caught would mean immediate loss...

[(PSN)ElZilcho]

I think DE needs to consider the way players operate in Warframe a little more carefully. Nobody is going to use a weapon that's guaranteed to run out of ammo, and they just filled up another slot with a "required" ammo mutation mod for anyody that wants to test themself in an endless mode. I never really used the launchers, and really only formad an Angstrom for my own amusement, but now I don't see why I ever would use them. They took something I never particularly liked the playstyle of and took out the usefulness factor. Are the huge waves of enemies that come in going to be modified now that the CC focused weapons are less suited for crowds?

 

If all a player has to do is put on a single mod to un-nerf the weapon themselves, then everybody who was "abusing" the launchers (as if the AI was complaining about it) will just do that and continue to blow everything up. Anybody who doesn't use or have one of those mods is now not going to care about the weapons. Stat junkies will just move on to the next power weapon that people will start whining about.

 

"It's trash or there was no effect" doesn't seem like that much of an improvement.

[vaugahn]

Uhh technically we don't have to... back in the day Games were shipped fully complete and the fact that you have to pay 1000s of dollars for prime access, cosmetics and the like only tells me that Open beta is being milked for all the money it's worth... so when it's finally released fully, then they'll have no reason to worry if the game no longer has a player base because they've already made all the money they need to... Stop being deceived already as that "OPEN BETA" excuse is getting old, REALLY old already...

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/28-open-beta-agreement-read-me/

 

I feel like this should be required reading for everyone before they post on the forums.

 

First off, prime access does not cost 1000 dollars. The most expensive package you can get is 150. Second, the reason there's a cash shop is because the devs need money to fund development. There was a cash shop in CBT as well, people need to stop trying to use that as proof we aren't beta. Third, just because some games are shipped complete doesn't mean this one is. Most games are in development for 2-3 years before being released, this game is just playable during that time.

[Arabaxus]

1. sure, but arguing with dps is then not that usefull cause u can´t compare in warframe weapons with it

2.why u should put more in then corrosive in?corrosive and blast is enaugh, or did i missunderstand u?

if people miss the mods to mod the weapon for what it´s needed then they have a new target( i don´t want to say content)

e.g my ogris deals 5k blast and 16k corrosive, i don´t think heavy units can resits it , and if they can my ogris has a proc build (40% status) which delet armor or blow them down

3. i don´t forgett, but then u have to think how easy it is to get the credit´s ( battelpay and or sechura) and the newest player (rank 6 and below) have no access to the launchers

 

4. Karak ( cause dmg is to low to play other missions longer)

    Amprex without ammo mutation is nothing to play long in survival or def

    bratons

    kernos

    dera

    lato

    aklato

    twinvipers

1. sure, but arguing with dps is then not that usefull cause u can´t compare in warframe weapons with it

 

As I have stated before, to you it may not be that useful because you do not compare weapons in Warframe with DPS, but others do, and the same other people have the same right to do so. They do not have rights to say that your method of comparison is bogus, but you have no right to make the same statement either. Am I standing here telling you that because you do not compare weapons by DPS you are somehow less intelligent than me? No. I am simply acknowledging the fact other players exist, and that other schools of thinking exist.

 

2. why u should put more in then corrosive in?corrosive and blast is enaugh, or did i missunderstand u?

 

It is a general trend that after using mods such as Serration and Multishot and Heavy Caliber the next way to augment damage is through the use of elementals. Of course you can argue that instead of Hellfire and Cryo Rounds I could use Malignant Force and High Voltage. Let's again, for the sake of simplicity assume everyone has the means to beat Tower 4 or the platinum to acquire Malignant Force. Not everyone was around for Tethra mods. I am not one of those players who was around. However, that would also simply be a workaround fix, as the point of those dual stat mods is to augment elemental damage and status chance, which all the explosives, with regards to status chance, either have a paltry amount or none at all.

 

3. i don´t forgett, but then u have to think how easy it is to get the credit´s ( battelpay and or sechura) and the newest player (rank 6 and below) have no access to the launchers

 

The same thing goes both ways. Not everyone has access to Sechura or thinks credits are abysmally easy to get. Of all the people, I should logically be one of the players who makes the statement that credits are easily attainable. The alliance I am in owns Sechura. Everyone has a 9% credit tax, and as an Alliance member, I do not have the same tax. However, I prefer to remember the fact that I am not the only one who plays the game, and that there are players not as far into the game yet. 

 

Ogris and Penta if I recall correctly are mastery rank six. Angstrum is mastery rank four. As much as I love the Mastery Rank system for its uniqueness, rather than a simple "the more things you kill, the higher your arbitrary rank number" system, it is a general consensus that the Master Rank system does not show any indication of player "skill" or veteranship. A friend of mine is Mastery Rank 11, and well on his way to 12, and does not own a single Prime Warframe, does not have a 6 Forma Catalyzed Penta. I am a bit over Mastery Rank 10, less ranked than him, but I have already acquired the parts or have built every single Prime Warframe, I have a Six Forma Catalyzed Penta among other things. His mastery rank may be higher, but I have more "endgame" content, as many people like to call this specific set of gear. It goes to show, Mastery Rank proves nothing beyond the number of weapons you have played with.

 

4. 

 

All your examples are examples of things that would be logical if this game had weapon socialism such as in the Call of Duty form, where most guns are simply reskins with a few changed statistics. As much as we would like to deny, weapons in a linear progressing game are tiered. Other than Amprex and Twin Vipers, most, if not all your examples are from weapons which are clearly for early game, by both their ease of acquiring, low mastery rank requirement (yes, mastery rank requirements for Prime weapons need reworks I understand this point fully so please do not try to pull this card and derail the discussion). Machine Pistols are also an issue to be addressed. Under your argument, I could complain that Flux Rifle is overpowered because it's better than a Spectra. Or that Supra or Gorgon is overpowered because it has greater DPS than my MK-1 Braton.

 

However, Amprex's ammunition economy has been present since its inception and thus all builds that have been created since that time have had that consideration in mind already. Let's assume all players don't care about DPS like you like to assume and can easily fix their build.

 

What other downsides does the Amprex have that is now similar to launchers? Your long range use is limited. Both (now) have sketchy ammunition economy. 

 

Let's step back, and make this argument for the nerf in your favor by returning to pre-nerf status, when the 540 ammunition capacity was the main complaint.

Amprex Drawbacks Prior to U 14.2:

 

-Limited Range

-Horrid Ammunition Economy

 

Launcher Drawbacks Prior to U 14.2

-Limited Range

 

Sounds like the Launchers need a nerf right? Let's look more deeply into this comparison.

 

Amprex:

-Limited Range

-Terrible Ammunition Economy

+One of the best innate damage types, electricity

+AoE/Crowd Control capabilities

+Massive Status Chance

+Sustained single target DPS on par with some of the highest sustained DPS weapons.

 

Launchers:

-Limited Range

-Low sustained DPS on par with other "good" weapons

-Innate Blast damage type, worst for heavy units (ironically when explosives are traditionally used to engage heavy armor)

-Ogris and Angstrum: Disgusting Fire Rate and reload speed complemented by travel time

-Penta: Arced nature of grenades alongside the need for manual detonation, leading in slow fire rate.

+AoE

+Ammunition Economy

 

Now one of these things has a lot more pros than cons as you might imagine. However, we seem to neglect to mention said cons for launchers all the time. Don't believe me? Maybe you'll believe the DPS tables so many people seem to follow blindly like sheep.

 

Same amount of Forma. Same Catalyst required. 

 

I do agree Angstrum was over the top. But the solution was not to gimp ammunition. That was not the root of the problem. The root of the problem was Angstrum, as a pistol had a base damage way too high. 425 base blast? Are you serious? That's literally stronger than a Penta in your pocket disguised as a secondary. The solution would have been to reduce said ridiculous base damage, not try to stem something else in an effort to fix the bud. It's this base damage that, even with its horrible fire rate, allowed it to achieve ridiculous DPS. When your plants are dying due to dehydration, you do not cut off leaves to reduce evaporation rate, you give it more water.

 

People need to get over it. This is a game balance pass (BALANCE). It has been needed for a long long time.

 

Any weapon that deals these massive amounts of damage needs to have negative trade off's to balance it for the game. 

 

Maybe we as players need to learn how to be better Tenno / Space Ninjas, and learn the skills necessary to use everything in the game as a viable weapon even to the point of kicking an enemy to death if we have to. 

 

My point fellow Tenno is this we always have to remember that Warframe is an open beta game. Nothing and I mean nothing is set in stone and anything may be change at any time. This is part of the beast for open beta anything. And as for the low ammo you may have to take off one coveted mod to allow for ammo mutation.

 

Use the Game-Mechanics to your advantage Tenno and move on with the game.

 

See above for the aforementioned "trade-offs" proponents of the nerf always neglect to mention when talking about launchers.

Edited August 14, 2014 by Arabaxus

[R3DBelmont456]

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/28-open-beta-agreement-read-me/

 

I feel like this should be required reading for everyone before they post on the forums.

 

First off, prime access does not cost 1000 dollars. The most expensive package you can get is 150. Second, the reason there's a cash shop is because the devs need money to fund development. There was a cash shop in CBT as well, people need to stop trying to use that as proof we aren't beta. Third, just because some games are shipped complete doesn't mean this one is. Most games are in development for 2-3 years before being released, this game is just playable during that time.

And this is why we can't have nice things... too many people complacent to play and pay ridiculous amounts for a game that isn't even complete... if this is the future of gaming then you're better of never playing another game again...

[vaugahn]

And this is why we can't have nice things... too many people complacent to play and pay ridiculous amounts for a game that isn't even complete... if this is the future of gaming then you're better of never playing another game again...

 

Why on earth are you playing an open beta game if you want something complete? Seriously, there are hundreds of other games out there that are finished products. Go play one of those instead of this one.

[PlayGooYa]

^

i suppose you can say i am taking a subjective view on this....being that i am one of the founders of this game, i prefer that some aspects of this game not reflect other games

 

being that it is a sci-fi space ninja game....it is possible that technology allows for ammunition that defies normal launcher logic....penta capsules are not normal launcher type ammunition...they are much smaller than rockets

 

the argument about the size of boltor ammunition could play into this as well....if launchers are getting heat for it...then so should boltor prime because it is not possible to fit all those bolts into that tiny little gun

^but i am straying away from the current argument

 

but yes i do want to keep this game different from the others.....sci-fi and space means that there should be technological innovation...so it could possibly be true that these weapons can hold more ammo

 

if you argue about launchers and their ammo cap....then why not argue about the technology of the orokin? why not argue about the logic of tech in terms of warframes? why point the finger and say that launchers break logic because it has too much ammo, when so many others things in this game does so?

 

Oh FFS. Don't get started on realism versus fantasy. This is a deliberate game design change that was a long time coming. If the design can be excused with magic, then it'll be excused with magic. If it can be excused with realism, it'll be excused with realism. It's not a one-way door.

 

I find your subjectivity even less excusable now that you tell me you're a Founder, because that means you didn't even bother to filter your prejudices in the time it took them to translate from brain-to-keyboard. Other people anticipated this. Other people knew it was beta and thought it was a shade too powerful.

 

Maybe you didn't reflect on your experiences, check the evidence or read other people's opinions. Fine. But get started. Your thoughtlessness is no longer excusable after this point. Wake up. Start listening. Stop making up trivial objections and assuming the truth of your presumptions without checking them at the door first. You can't just ascribe malice or design-by-committee just because things didn't go the way you liked.

 

Edited August 14, 2014 by PlayGooYa

[Kratos]

This is ridiculous, and childish. Quite frankly, I'm happy with the launcher ammo reduction. Now I don't have to get in a lobby with some dude waving his Angstrum and Ogris/Penta all willy nilly like the whacky inflatable tube man. (Honestly, it was getting old.)

[R3DBelmont456]

Oh FFS. Don't get started on realism versus fantasy. This is a deliberate game design change that was a long time coming. If the design can be excused with magic, then it'll be excused with magic. If it can be excused with realism, it'll be excused with realism. It's not a one-way door.

 

I find your subjectivity even less excusable now that you tell me you're a Founder, because that means you didn't even bother to filter your prejudices in the time it took them to translate from brain-to-keyboard. Other people anticipated this. Other people knew it was beta and thought it was a shade too powerful.

 

Maybe you didn't reflect on your experiences, check the evidence or read other people's opinions. Fine. But get started. Your thoughtlessness is no longer excusable after this point.

 

maybe you'd be happer with the boltor being a BAR since the rods are the size of the barrel itself... heck why not make it a cross bow... that way it makes more sense right, though if they did do that I'd be laughing my butt off at all the people who wasted taters and forma's on the boltor/boltor primes... but that wouldn't be nice... after all everyone's just telling me to get over it and get used to it and that you were never really meant to main a rocket cause they're unskilled weps and they suck, nonsense...

[R3DBelmont456]

This is ridiculous, and childish. Quite frankly, I'm happy with the launcher ammo reduction. Now I don't have to get in a lobby with some dude waving his Angstrum and Ogris/Penta all willy nilly like the whacky inflatable tube man. (Honestly, it was getting old.)

How's about DE just nerfs everything so that the game feels new again... cause I guess people having fun spamming rockets on large crowds was just overrated right?...

[PlayGooYa]

maybe you'd be happer with the boltor being a BAR since the rods are the size of the barrel itself... heck why not make it a cross bow... that way it makes more sense right, though if they did do that I'd be laughing my butt off at all the people who wasted taters and forma's on the boltor/boltor primes... but that wouldn't be nice... after all everyone's just telling me to get over it and get used to it and that you were never really meant to main a rocket cause they're unskilled weps and they suck, nonsense...

 

Yeah that's the trouble with you nay-sayers. You're all thoughtless and you don't like listening to what you don't want to hear.

Because it's clear you didn't take three seconds to read what I was trying to communicate.

[Alkira]

Don't worry, the next game balance will be capping rapid-fire weapons at 10 shot clips with 4.5 second reload times. Then they'll reduce all frames [besides Nyx] health and shields by 90%. But yeah, the 20 (or 30) ammo per mission is insane since sniper ammo drops about 0.0001% of the time AND no launcher can actually equip Sniper Ammo Mutation...

[R3DBelmont456]

actually that is a good idea... why doesn't DE make all LMG's (SOMA, Flux rifle, Gorgon, Supra, Etc...) have a reload time of 7 seconds without mods so that people know how a real LMG should be balanced in a Shooter... then they can waste space on a worthless reload speed mod for the sake of balance right?...

Edited August 14, 2014 by R3DBelmont456

[vaugahn]

Don't worry, the next game balance will be capping rapid-fire weapons at 10 shot clips with 4.5 second reload times. Then they'll reduce all frames [besides Nyx] health and shields by 90%. But yeah, the 20 (or 30) ammo per mission is insane since sniper ammo drops about 0.0001% of the time AND no launcher can actually equip Sniper Ammo Mutation...

 

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/slippery-slope

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

Don't worry, the next game balance will be capping rapid-fire weapons at 10 shot clips

Well, as long as they don't lower the mag size, it's fine.

[PlayGooYa]

Yeah I bet you guys think you're all so clever.

Explosives are special-case exceptions that needed the nerf.

What you think nobody went over that in 18 pages?

Those weapons do run dry if you hold the trigger closed non-stop. And they're still not AOE weapons capable of hitting entire waves.

 

@Alkira
They work with Rifle Mutations.

 

But this is nothing surprising anymore. None of you are very well-informed or listen very well.

Edited August 14, 2014 by PlayGooYa

[R3DBelmont456]

I'm being serious though... make all LMG machineguns have like 7-8 second reload speeds without mods so that people have a reason to use the Burston again... and rocket launchers use sniper ammo so rifle mutators don't work... who's the one's that not informed again?

Edited August 14, 2014 by R3DBelmont456