Dokusi Posted October 2, 2014 Author Share Posted October 2, 2014 The AkBronco doesn't have damage fall-off. How good is it for 'sniping' enemies? Have you ever actually used a shotgun in real life? Are you unaware of just how far a shotgun can fire accurately (without slugs)? Give this man a medal. I had the broncos before and you would never want to snipe with them, even if you could it would be a waste of time when a melee says I love you all the more in a timely manner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sixty5 Posted October 2, 2014 Share Posted October 2, 2014 A maxed out Tigris (6 forma full damage build) will hit just under 8k damage per shot. If you let off both barrels that is 16k damage right into somethings face. Sounds nice right? Unfortunately the Tigris also has both spread and damage falloff to contend with, so unless you are right next to an enemy, you won't hit anything close to that. Furthermore if you compare the damage output of the Tigris to other weapons the story gets worse. My unformad Paris prime hits harder per-shot than my 6 forma Tigris, throw some forma onto the bow, and I'll be critting for twice the max damage on a double shot. Looking at the dps the story gets even worse. The Tigris will max out at about 8.5k dps. It would take 3 maxed out Tigris's dealing optimal damage to equal my Latron Prime. The real problem is shotgun mods, and how they scale into poop. Throw in damage reducing mechanics, and well you have a recipe for a lot of lost potential Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otaiken Posted October 2, 2014 Share Posted October 2, 2014 (edited) Funnily enough...... I think that the spread is too tight. Using Vicious Spread on Tigris actually makes it much better imho. What Tigris needs is little bit less fall off and innate punch through. You have two shots... everything in a cone in front of you should die when you pull that trigger. That's how boomsticks should work. You can either go close for brutal damage or a bit back for a bit of AoE and maybe CC. At the moment snipers make better shotguns than shotguns. Th spread is so small so at short range you might as well be using single bullet (though you get the advantage of getting all the damage on one weak spot with single bullets) and on longer range you get reduced damage. Yeah... just run around hip firing sniper.. it's the same thing just better. Tigris has the same problem snipers have... low RoF for high single target damage (which is somewhat less useful in Warframe).. except you also have to get close which makes it even worse. So fix it the same way you (arguably) fixed snipers... punch through and maybe damage buff. Actually... they could make the fall off brutal as long as it would at least excell up close.. but it doesn't. And then there's the old problem that people tend to use melee at short range. I'm not sure how many gun enthusiasts there are in Warframe that would opt to carry close range gun when they can simply slice and dice. Edited October 2, 2014 by LocoWithGun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gahrzerkire Posted October 3, 2014 Share Posted October 3, 2014 That chip on your shoulder must be very stale at this point. It definitely needs improvements to be worthy of the slot it's occupying in my arsenal. I have so many slots in my aresnal i stopped caring XD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
[DE]Momaw Posted October 3, 2014 Share Posted October 3, 2014 A weapon holding only 2 shots would need to have a reload time of 0.5 seconds to fit the pacing of Warframe. But it would look completely stupid to reload a break-open shotgun in half a second. The alternative is to increase the performance of each shot... Except to make the weapon decisive enough to justify the time-cost of each shot, it would need to do like a thousand base damage plus a meter of inherent punchthrough. :-/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SquirmyBurrito Posted October 3, 2014 Share Posted October 3, 2014 For those who are unaware of just how far shotguns can fire accurately. This man hits clay pigeons at a distance of ~118 meters. So why can't our highly trained killing machines (tenno) hit anything passed ~20 meters? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GinKenshin Posted October 3, 2014 Share Posted October 3, 2014 For those who are unaware of just how far shotguns can fire accurately. This man hits clay pigeons at a distance of ~118 meters. So why can't our highly trained killing machines (tenno) hit anything passed ~20 meters? shotgun accuracy isn't the problem, the problem is that it'll deal less damage pass 20 meters Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vaugahn Posted October 3, 2014 Share Posted October 3, 2014 For those who are unaware of just how far shotguns can fire accurately. This man hits clay pigeons at a distance of ~118 meters. So why can't our highly trained killing machines (tenno) hit anything passed ~20 meters? Video game logic. A realistic range wouldn't make sense given how small our tiles are, so we have to adjust accordingly. All of our rifles are ridiculously inaccurate/short-ranged as well, it just can't be helped. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SquirmyBurrito Posted October 3, 2014 Share Posted October 3, 2014 shotgun accuracy isn't the problem, the problem is that it'll deal less damage pass 20 meters My point is that people like to respond to requests for the removal of the fall-off with 'blahblahblah sniper shotguns' or something like that as if shotguns have piss range. The idea that shotguns have terrible range was one that was (to my knowledge) created and spread in video games. It is usually used for balancing (they do a ton of damage, but can't hit anything passed a certain range). The issue is that in Warframe most of the shotguns are crap, and giving them infinite range isn't going to change that. That video shows that IRL pellets don't just disappear or spread so far that they can't hit a target beyond twenty meters. There is no reason for shotguns to currently be as restricted as they are. The days of OP hek have come and gone (G3 don't count) and people need to stop bringing it up. Video game logic. A realistic range wouldn't make sense given how small our tiles are, so we have to adjust accordingly. All of our rifles are ridiculously inaccurate/short-ranged as well, it just can't be helped. But that isn't the case here. Most of our weapons have what amounts to infinite range and are extremely accurate. Shotguns, continuous fire weapons, and the Brakk are the only weapons I can think of that were hit with the video game logic stick THIS hard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monolake Posted October 3, 2014 Share Posted October 3, 2014 (edited) ... The issue is that in Warframe most of the shotguns are crap, and giving them infinite range isn't going to change that. ... This. Shotguns are meh at point blank even. And useless at medium range, cause spread+ dramatic falloff. Either get rid of the falloff or make them devastating at point-blank ( like Brakk is). This is what Tigris should'v been Edited October 3, 2014 by Monolake Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
[DE]Momaw Posted October 3, 2014 Share Posted October 3, 2014 For those who are unaware of just how far shotguns can fire accurately. This man hits clay pigeons at a distance of ~118 meters. So why can't our highly trained killing machines (tenno) hit anything passed ~20 meters? 1.) clay pigeons are specifically designed to do two things: fly well, and shatter in a spectacular way if you look at them wrong. Clay pigeons are not representative of a fleshy living thing, let alone one wearing armor. 2.) fowling shotguns use tight chokes to make the pattern of shot as tight as possible. 3.) clay shooters use bird shot, blasting hundreds of pellets from each shell. Bird shot is like lead sand. Or bismuth alloy now. Our military fighting shotguns are using buckshot, each chunk of metal like a small bullet in its own right. Bird shot achieves extremely high saturation, buckshot does not. Though it is true that like most video games, Warframe makes a mockery of shotguns. In reality there is no practical difference in velocity ("damage") between zero and 25 meters, which is about the limit of what buckshot can reliably do anyway due to the pattern of expanding shot. At 25-30 meters, combat type shotguns will typically leave a pattern about the size of a human torso. Versus: Video games like to pretend that shotgun pellets have little parachutes attached that make them slow down like cotton balls, and that every shotgun is a sawn-off with a useless wild spray instead of a realistic "inch per yard" (1 in 36, for metric players) approximation of shot spreading. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
00zau Posted October 3, 2014 Share Posted October 3, 2014 I think damage fall off for shotguns in general needs to get scrapped. Of course, when I say that there are always a horde of people making snide 'sniper shotgun' comments which really does nothing but betray their ignorance regarding shotguns. And when I bring up the fact that pellets don't just disappear after several meters IRL they fall back on the 'this is a video game not real life argument'. So preemptively I will pose this question: "Why should shotguns have damage fall-off in a game that does not slap a range limit/damage fall-off on other weapons? (continuous weapons, brakk, and shotguns being the only exceptions that I can think of) Keep in mind that removing the range cap would not suddenly remove the pellet spread. Why? What is it about the idea of a double-barrel shotgun that makes it bad? What is it about warframe that makes double-barrel shotguns bad as an idea? I'm not talking about its execution as most will agree that the tigris is lacking. The snide "sniper shotgun" is the reason why shotguns have damage falloff. I agree that shotguns need a buff badly. However, I'm not sure that removing the damage falloff is the correct way to do that. If shotguns behaved the same way they did in real life, a shotgun would be little different from a rifle with the same trigger style; at the ranges Warframe is fought at, buckshot-style loads have minimal spread. Thus, at warframe ranges, a shotgun like the strun would have little to differentiate it from something like the latron, or even a burst fire rifle (which even fires multiple bullets, imitating a shotguns multiple pellets). Basically, I think that a better choice than removing falloff for the sake of realism is to embrace the difference between vidya jame shotguns and rifles; keep the falloff, but make shotguns ridiculously powerful at close range so you'll want to use them anyway. Compare the old "sniper" Hek to the modern Latron P or W; the latron is going to outdamage it because of crits, and has several times the magazine size and ammo pool to boot. Instead, give the shotguns damage comparable to the launchers (something like 250 for the basic Strun, 350 for Hek, 450-500 for the Tigris), and give some kind of garunteed effect at close enough ranges; for example, if the enemy is within 10m, they are knocked back. Now instead of being more similar to rifles than they are now, shotguns are a great close combat choice, and have excelent crowd control potential (Mobs on the cryo-pod? Vicious spread + punchthrough and you can blow them all away to get some breathing room. No need for a specific frame). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SquirmyBurrito Posted October 3, 2014 Share Posted October 3, 2014 1.) clay pigeons are specifically designed to do two things: fly well, and shatter in a spectacular way if you look at them wrong. Clay pigeons are not representative of a fleshy living thing, let alone one wearing armor. 2.) fowling shotguns use tight chokes to make the pattern of shot as tight as possible. 3.) clay shooters use bird shot, blasting hundreds of pellets from each shell. Bird shot is like lead sand. Or bismuth alloy now. Our military fighting shotguns are using buckshot, each chunk of metal like a small bullet in its own right. Bird shot achieves extremely high saturation, buckshot does not. Though it is true that like most video games, Warframe makes a mockery of shotguns. In reality there is no practical difference in velocity ("damage") between zero and 25 meters, which is about the limit of what buckshot can reliably do anyway due to the pattern of expanding shot. At 25-30 meters, combat type shotguns will typically leave a pattern about the size of a human torso. Versus: Video games like to pretend that shotgun pellets have little parachutes attached that make them slow down like cotton balls, and that every shotgun is a sawn-off with a useless wild spray instead of a realistic "inch per yard" (1 in 36, for metric players) approximation of shot spreading. 1. Clay pigeons do not have built in pellet attractors. The armor bit is irrelevant too. So my point still stands. 2. That's irrelevant. 3. That's irrelevant. My point was that pellets do not suddenly disappear at those ranges. Also, I did not need you to explain something that I already know. Even buckshot is still lethal and fairly accurate at 50 yards. 25-30 meters? I have to disagree. I'd say its reliable (and lethal) limit is more like 45 meters. The snide "sniper shotgun" is the reason why shotguns have damage falloff. I agree that shotguns need a buff badly. However, I'm not sure that removing the damage falloff is the correct way to do that. If shotguns behaved the same way they did in real life, a shotgun would be little different from a rifle with the same trigger style; at the ranges Warframe is fought at, buckshot-style loads have minimal spread. Thus, at warframe ranges, a shotgun like the strun would have little to differentiate it from something like the latron, or even a burst fire rifle (which even fires multiple bullets, imitating a shotguns multiple pellets). Basically, I think that a better choice than removing falloff for the sake of realism is to embrace the difference between vidya jame shotguns and rifles; keep the falloff, but make shotguns ridiculously powerful at close range so you'll want to use them anyway. Compare the old "sniper" Hek to the modern Latron P or W; the latron is going to outdamage it because of crits, and has several times the magazine size and ammo pool to boot. Instead, give the shotguns damage comparable to the launchers (something like 250 for the basic Strun, 350 for Hek, 450-500 for the Tigris), and give some kind of garunteed effect at close enough ranges; for example, if the enemy is within 10m, they are knocked back. Now instead of being more similar to rifles than they are now, shotguns are a great close combat choice, and have excelent crowd control potential (Mobs on the cryo-pod? Vicious spread + punchthrough and you can blow them all away to get some breathing room. No need for a specific frame). And it is a terrible reason. Shotguns do not deal enough damage to invalidate sniper rifles and bows should they have their fall-off removed. If shotguns behaved as they do in real life they'd be exactly what we have now, but with a much longer fall-off spread. This being a video games with ~50 meter rooms on average, that'd be the same as having unlimited range. I'd rather warframe take a different approach to unrealistic shotguns. Remove damage fall-off, increase their spread (on top of the damage buff they so badly need). The Strun isn't going to be able to hit headshots at the ranges LatronP can or a burst rife. There are other ways to differentiate shotguns from other weapons. I don't care about the traditional video game logic applied to shotguns. How do you differentiate between a sniper rifle and a AR? How do you differentiate between a burst rifle and a regular AR? How do you differentiate between a bow and a sniper rifle? You don't have to butcher their range and give them 180 degree spread. Sniper rifles are typically high damage, come with scopes, really fast bullets. ARs and Burst rifles don't shoot the same, and the latter is typically easier to use at longer ranges. Shotguns are made special via their pellets and whatever gimmick the game dev decides to toss in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RealPandemonium Posted October 3, 2014 Share Posted October 3, 2014 (edited) Tigris just needs reloads to be fixed so that they happen instantly. It's fine otherwise. I can't fathom how people are able to discuss a weapon that can kill fine in T4 missions and say it needs buffs just because Soma/BPrime/Brakk/whatever cheese exists. Edited October 3, 2014 by RealPandemonium Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dokusi Posted October 3, 2014 Author Share Posted October 3, 2014 SquirmyBurrito MVP of this thread!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaosdreamer Posted October 3, 2014 Share Posted October 3, 2014 Simple question : Do you even know why We have the fall off damage ?(Want the answer from OP) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dokusi Posted October 3, 2014 Author Share Posted October 3, 2014 (edited) And why do people care so much about snipe shotgun anyways? Would it really bother you that much if some dunce was trying to snipe with a boomstick? Just keep on moving with whatever rifle you got and be on your way. Shotguns need help. They are at the crap end of the stick and are being overlooked by the majority. And another thing; if we are gonna stick to that video game logic about spread this and falloff magic erasing bullets that, then I Demand a juicy damage buff to all shotguns cause if you compare them to other like minded games, they're junk. There's no advantage to using shotguns over rifles and snipers. Say what you want but if you get an unbiased newbie onto the game, they won't touch the hek and will jump to boltor. Edited October 3, 2014 by Dokusi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaosdreamer Posted October 3, 2014 Share Posted October 3, 2014 And another thing; if we are gonna stick to that video game logic about spread this and falloff magic erasing bullets that, then I Demand a juicy damage buff to all shotguns cause if you compare them to other like minded games, they're junk. There's no advantage to using shotguns over rifles and snipers. Say what you want but if you get an unbiased newbie onto the game, they won't touch the hek and will jump to boltor. Actually if we take others games , shotsgun or "SUPER OP" in 5-10 metter range but we need some space magic to make them good , Actually theire are no reason to use snipers(because any rifle can O-KO everything) Theire just a problem , Brakk and others , they transform theireself into super killing machine Which i like to use...the thing now that even melee weapon can deal same damage as shotgun which is not normal... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RealPandemonium Posted October 4, 2014 Share Posted October 4, 2014 Tigris' damage dealing potential is totally fine. The delayed reload is the only thing that makes it unsatisfying to use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now